Talk:Isle of Skye

This article was improved during a Scottish Islands Collaboration of the Month in 2007-8

Transport

I don't think that wikipedia is the place for train & ferry timetables as they usually change twice a year - surely a link to the ferry operator website would be more accurate and reliable? --JBellis 17:50, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

In this degree of specificity, you're right. But it's reasonable to mention that the train connects with the ferry (and I think the bit about calling calmac to have them hold the ferry is rather quaint, and so should be kept, albeit worded rather more encyclopedically). -- Finlay McWalter | Talk 22:52, August 23, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know if it's notable, but I recently purchsed the Flash Gordon 1980 movie, and according to the IMDB, the airstrip sequence near the beginning was shot at Breakish on Skye. Douglasnicol 17:54, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Towns and villages

Included the places already mentioned in the introductory paragraph in the list as well. Otherwise one has a list without the most crucial items. Any harm mentioning Portree or Uig twice? Do not think so. -- Klaus with K 14:41, 31 August 2005 (UTC)

Westminster representation

Wondering whether anyone can confirm the following as a list of the Westminster constituencies Skye has been part of:

• Inverness-shire, 1708 to 1918
• Inverness, 1918 to 1983
• Ross, Cromarty and Skye, 1983 to 1997
• Ross, Skye and Inverness West, 1997 to 2005
• Ross, Skye and Lochaber, 2005 to present

Laurel Bush 13:09, 17 January 2006 (UTC).

Geography

It would be good to see this expanded. Skye seems almost permenantly overrun with geology students so I'm sure someone has knowledge out there!Greynolds999 02:26, 27 April 2007 (UTC)

Name change

As the name is set to be officially changed to Eilean a' Cheò (Isle of Mist) next Thursday[1], perhaps a change of name should be considered for this article? Ninja-lewis 01:38, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps not. The link is to a letter unconnected with the naming of Skye, an unreliable source perhaps showing a certain Scotnat bias ;) ... dave souza, talk 06:56, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Ah sorry. Correct link should be this[2] :) Ninja-lewis 10:51, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

That makes more sense. Clearly we should now add Eilean a' Cheò as an alternative Gaelic name so I've done that. As far as the article is concerned, Skye remains the most common name in English so Wikipedia:Naming conventions mean that will still be the article name. Seems to be considerable controversy about which Gaelic name should be used, any idea which name is on the signposts? .. dave souza, talk 12:14, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

The BBC1 Scotland news item on this had a mention of the council apparently saying that it's the official name for electoral purposes, and will be the name read out at the count on Thursday, but Skye remains in (official?) use – no doubt further clarifications will be announced. .. dave souza, talk 18:11, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Norse name

Its English name came via Old Norse Skið = "sky" (and similar meanings)

Can anyone vouch for this meaning of Old Norse skið? It's usually translated as a log or plank of wood, which is where we get the word ski. English sky is related to ON ský. Flapdragon 04:06, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

According to W. H. Murray (1966) The Hebrides "To the Norsemen it was Skuyo (with o umlaut) meaning Isle of Cloud, which is rendered in Gaelic as Eilean a' Cheo." Ben MacDui (Talk) (Sorry about the poor syntax - my wiki markup is not functioning for some reason).

Article title and focus

The artite is named for a specific island but seems to be more about a group of islands. Perhaps we need an article called Skye islands with Skye as a disabig page. Laurel Bush 13:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC).

Nope, I have never before heard the expression Skye islands — there is one big main island. Skye (disambiguation) is linked from Isle of Skye with Skye a redirect onto it. Fine by me as it is.Klaus with K 15:17, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

Scetis (ancient latin name)

While working on the page it:Nitria, an ancient monastic community established in Egypt in the IV century, I've found out that Scetis is also the latinized ancient name of Wadi El Natrun. I think that the redirect Scetis->Isle of Skye should be fixed (i.e. disambiguated) --Fredericks (msg) 16:42, 30 May 2007 (UTC)

PS. Of course I could do so, but now I'm working hard on several new voices on the italian Wikipedia ;) If needed I'll fix the redirect by myself in the future.

Reference in Topsy Turvy

Kevin McKidd's character in Topsy Turvy refers to the slaughter of 57 families on the Isle of Skye by British militia. I didn't see it mentioned in the clearences article and the history of the island section seems pretty sparse to begin with. Anyone care to expand and perhaps answer the question?68.166.252.214 03:33, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Skye in the 1880s, when the film is set, saw evictions, riots, and send a gunboat, but not massacres that I ever heard of. I presume this refers to the evictions and the Battle of the Braes which followed them on 19 April 1882, mixed up with the later appearance of marines and a gunboat to arrest three locals. The rioters - well, so-called as it's not clear that the locals started the trouble, many sources say the police did - were fined at Inverness sheriff court. John MacPherson and his two co-accused got a couple of months in jail at the Court of Session. There's more here but absolutely no information at Highland Land League or Highland Clearances. Angus McLellan (Talk) 08:27, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Improvement issues

The more I look at this article the more confusing it becomes. It has clearly evolved rather then been planned. Castles, for example, are mentioned in three different places. It may get a little worse before it gets better. Apologies to page watchers for any short-term confusion. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 18:50, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Page Rendering Issues

With Firefox 3.6.3 on Linux I see the two population tables as being superimposed (and illegible) on the left side of the page. When I edit the section it appears fine in the preview. I don't know enough about the floating CSS type content to fix it properly. Leaving this to someone more familiar. 204.92.92.4 (talk) 14:12, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Traverse of Black Cuillin Ridge

I would have expected to see material on, or at least a reference to, the 24-hour traverse of the Black Cuillin - and to the 'Greater Traverse' and the winter traverse. Where are they hiding :-) ? Bob aka Linuxlad (talk) 21:54, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

See Cuillin. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk —Preceding comment was added at 18:57, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

I will add there then .Linuxlad (talk) 23:16, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Skye

Page Skye redirects here. Anyone object if I just move it to Skye? Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 16:33, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Not I. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 18:55, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

'Tis done. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 19:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

The article currently states categorically that the Gaelic name means Winged Isle, but I thought that this was by no means a settled question.

I've certainly never heard anyone who proposed the winged thing explain away the inconvenience of a' Chuan Sgith.... Prof Wrong (talk) 12:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not at all surprised to hear there is some dispute, but I am not familiar with this suggestion and the Google hits all point to pages in Gaelic. Can you say more? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 13:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I've never been involved in any academic debate on the subject, but several Gaelic speakers I've spoken to (teachers and writers) dismiss it as poetic nonsense and false etymology. I've been told that the native Skye pronunciation of "Sgitheanach" is clearly distinct from how they would pronunciation "Sgiathanach", so the claim is that there really is no link in the common mind. (Although I can't remember whether it was a Skye woman or a Lewis man that said this to me.)

My reference to a' Chuain Sgith (the Minch) is quite simple: it is unlikely that the Minch would obtain a shorter name than the island if the sea was named after the island: instead it would be Cuan Sgitheanach -- the Skyish Sea. Cuan Sgith points to a shorter Gaelic original name.

It makes sense that when they were trying to tart up Gaelic in the "celtic mist" days they would try to dismiss non-Gaelic origins for Scottish placenames, but just because they've captured the public imagination with it doesn't mean we should repeat it, surely?

62.30.181.23 (talk) 17:07, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

That last one was me -- I thought I was logged in.

Anyway, I'm not happy with this sentence in the first paragraph: "It is possible the name may describe the shape of the island's peninsulas that radiate out from a mountainous centre dominated by the Cuillin hills." It is quite possible that this is false etymology. Would you agree that discussion of this should be restricted to the etymology section? It's not a done deal, so hardly first paragraph material.

I'm a bit surprised by this bit:

"Eilean Sgitheanach, (sometimes Eilean Sgiathanach) is the modern Gaelic name and means "winged isle".[6]

Refs section:

"[6] Eilean Sgiathanach does mean "winged isle". Eilean Sgitheanach is the traditional spelling and may be a corruption of the Norse with the relationship between the two being a false etymology."

That's not a reference -- it's an opinion. Is there any serious study that makes a clear link, rather than deferring to poetry and heresay?

I'd really be much happier if it was made clear that the "winged isle" stuff was a suggestion (conjecture, even) and not presented as the meaning of the name.

Prof Wrong (talk) 17:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

• WP:MOS insists that any sections be referred to in the lead para.
• 6. This is a footnote, and not a reference as such. I removed the original suggestion from the main text. It is clear both spellings are used, but not being a Gaelic speaker I couldn't tell you the context. I will ask someone more knowledgeable to take a look at it.
• I'll change the text above to "and may mean "winged isle" if you can provide a sources that queries this. There are several that corroborate it. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 18:14, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

The shortest answer is that for the most part, An t-Eilean Sgitheanach is simply an opaque place-name. An t-Eilean is clear and means "the island". The Sgitheanach part is much more difficult. Dr Ian Taylor of the Scottish Place-name Society carefully puts it (of An t-Eilean Sgitheanach) as "This may be "the indented island". An alternative form is An t-Eilean Sgiathanach, which points to sgiath, "wing", as the root of the name. A poetic name of the island is Eilean a' Cheò, "island of the mist"."

The problem with coming up with a clear etymology is manifold (the usual lack of data problem aside). Sgiathanach meaning *"winged" would be an odd formation in Gaelic as the singular noun form (on which adjectives are usually based) is sgiath (Old Irish sciath); the usual adjective forming suffix is -(e)ach, yielding sgiathach. This is actually the current Gaelic word for "winged" and the oldest record of this word I have found (as sgiathach) is in Edward Lhuyd's 1699 account of Scots Gaelic dialects. To base an adjective on a plural form (sgiathan in this case) would be rather extraordinary in Gaelic; I can't think of a single one. Now, modern Irish has sgiathán for "wing", having added the masculine diminuitive -án. The problem is that this form is not recorded in Scots Gaelic. The phonetics would not speak against this. The plural sgiathan /s̪g̊ʲiəhən/ would contain a schwa in the plural ending. A construct along the lines of Irish sgiathán on the other hand would require a clear /an/ diminuitive ending. The pronunciation of An t-Eilean Sgiathanach (recorded by Carl Borgstrøm The Dialects of Skye and Ross-shire and others) however all contain clear /a/, for example the Kilmuir speaker has /s̪g̊ʲiəhanəx/. For starters, this makes it certain that we're not dealing with a plural (all Gaelic plural endings have only reduced vowels).

So the problem for making a case for winged is that:

• Gaelic already has a word for winged and it's sgiathach, not sgiathanach
• sgiathanach is not recorded except in the place-name
• sgiathanach would require an adjectival form of an unrecorded word, *sgiathan "little wing" (which of course also raises the question of why on earth one would use a diminuitive form for a rather large island)

It's not likey to be sgitheanach though either, the phonetics strongly disagree with that. Sgitheanach would result in hiatus after the /i/, yielding /s̪g̊ʲi.anəx/ but the recorded forms are along the lines /s̪g̊ʲiəhanəx/ /s̪g̊ʲiə.anəx/ or /s̪g̊ʲiaːnəx/ with either an /h/ or hiatus after the /iə/.

It's definitely not sgìth "tired" as no recorded pronunciation has a long /i:/. I'm not entirely sure what the "notched isle" etymology is based on but Dr Taylor presumably has some data I'm not privy to.

The fact that there are early references to "winged" does not necessarily mean they are true. Prior to being Gaelic speaking Scotland was Brythonic speaking and before then who knows. It may simply be a case of a century old folk etymology trying to re-interpret the name and authors pestering natives with questions like "but what does it mean?"... By the way, is the Norse correct? I thought that would be Skuyø if anything? Thinking about it, the Norse name also does not point towards wings... if anything, it points away from it. Sgiath would have been pronounced along the lines of /s̪gʲiaθ/ back then, which should have yielded Norse *skiþ or something like that, but not -uy (assuming the ö is øy "island").

On the whole, IMO the name issue should read something along the lines of "The Gaelic name for the Isle of Skye is An t-Eilean Sgiathanach (also occasionally spelled Sgitheanach. The meaning of this name is not clear. Various etymologies have been proposed, such as the "winged isle" or "the notched isle" but no definitive solution has been found to date. Eilean a' Cheò is a name used in Gaelic poetry meaning "The Isle of the Mist". Akerbeltz (talk) 22:18, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

(In answer to Ben Macdui, posted concurrently with Akerbeltz.)

Setting aside sources, evidence etc, one thing is undeniable -- the article itself already makes reference to three different theories of the etymology of the name: Norse for clouds; Gaelic for wings and a Celtic mythological figure. It's hardly NPOV to select one of these theories as correct enough to be in the lead paragraph but demote the others to the etymology section. OK, the Scáthach link seems to be widely disregarded as fanciful celtic mist, but the Norse theory holds as much support as the "wing" theory. There are as many Norse-derived placenames on Skye as Gaelic-derived ones.

Now, the following I would say is definitely untrue:

Eilean Sgitheanach, (sometimes Eilean Sgiathanach) is the modern Gaelic name and means "winged isle".

As you don't speak Gaelic, let's change language for a moment, and pick an undisputed placename: Sussex. Sussex is the modern English name, and does not mean "South Saxony". That is not to say that it did not originally mean South Saxony -- it almost certainly did.

Back to An Eilean Sgitheanach. The modern Gaelic Sgitheanach means Skye-ish, and nothing else. It cannot be used in modern Gaelic to express anything to do with wings. That is not to say that "Sgiathanach" was not the origin (or indeed an accurate modern rendering of the original meaning) -- it may have been -- but whatever the original form was is irrelevant: the only common current form is Eilean Sgitheanach, which does not have any intrinsic meaning of its own.

Prof Wrong (talk) 22:24, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I take it you mean MacDui, not me as I'm fluent ;)

Change that to Sgiathanach rather than Sgitheanach and I'm fully with you. In modern Gaelic sgiathanach only ever is a) an adjective (An t-Eilean Sgiathanach and after common nouns, eg tha blas sgiathanach aige "he has a Skye accent") or b) a noun meaning Skye(wo)man. But I think an explanatory note about possible explanation attempts should be included because as sure as the sun will rise tomorrow someone else is going to put it back otherwise. Akerbeltz (talk) 22:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for this input folks. I have amended the main text. If this works better I'll have a go a the lead. Perhaps something like: "The island's peninsulas radiate out from a mountainous centre dominated by the Cuillin hills. Although it has been suggested that the Gaelic name describes this shape there is no definitive agreement as to its origins." An additional footnote in etymology would not go amiss, summarising the above. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 08:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You're welcome. I added a bit more in the etymology section, summing up the argument above with references.

A different point though, I'm not happy with the Norse derivation. I'll be the first to admit that I'm not a Norse expert but dealing with Gaelic you learn a number of things about it. First, the word for island invariably seems to be øy or ey but not öy. Can anyone check that? Secondly, are we sure about the "mist" thing or is that glossing the Gaelic back into Norse? According to my English Etymological Dictionary (Oxford) the Norse word ský (which presumably we're dealing with here) is listed with the meaning "cloud", not "mist". Anyone here good on Norse? Akerbeltz (talk) 10:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Kaixo. I don't know Norse, but I have always been told it was "cloud" -- aside from this article, I've never heard any claim that Skye originated from "mist". Again though, I have no citations to hand. Prof Wrong (talk) 12:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Kaixo hi ere :) I've done a bit of web-digging. The only ref I can find to Skuyö is a submission to a heraldric body [3] which - never mind the strangeness - has a good analyisis of the words. So I did some digging in my own dictionaries. Ö is modern Swedish for island; sky is "cloud" in both modern Swedish and Norwegian, Icelandic still has ský, also meaning cloud. I'm a bit worried about this Norse reference now, since the name seems to be a modern Swedish formation. I'm kind of tempted to remove it until we can find a reference to where it says that this was the Norse name... Akerbeltz (talk) 12:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've tidied the Norse but added a citation needed tag. I know there's a reference in there to Murray The Hebrides but if he had Skuyö, I don't trust him. I found one lonely reference to sky-øy in a Norwegian newspaper article [4] so for the time being I'm reasonably confident with sky-øy.

Indicentally, what is the Cuan Sgith controversy? (a' Chuain Sgith is a gentive, the nominative would be An Cuan Sgith). Akerbeltz (talk) 13:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks again for the Gaelic update. Lead amended per the above. I added back some Norse names with citations. Neither source can be considered definitive on the subject, but they are verifiable and I'd rather not have 'fact' tags in the middle of a GAN. I'll drop a note at Talk:Old Norse and see if they can shed some light on the subject. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 20:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Akerbeltz states: Now, modern Irish has sgiathán for "wing", having added the masculine diminuitive -án. The problem is that this form is not recorded in Scots Gaelic. The form sciathán may not be recorded in Scottish Gaelic but that does not mean that it is not a possible form in the language. I presume the argument is not that the diminutive affix -an doesn't exist in Scottish Gaelic but that the word sgiathan (sgiath + an) has not been recorded? I can think of lochan and there are probably hundreds of other examples, just as in Irish. An Muimhneach Machnamhach (talk) 23:15, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

You're right, there's words like lochan, balachan, daidean etc but the diminutive suffix does exist in Scots Gaelic but has ceased to be productive except in neologisms (and has been for quite some time as far as we can tell) so it's difficult to argue for a spontaneous form *sgiathan that simply hasn't been recorded. So, *sgiathan (as "shield" or "wing") is theoretically possible but not attested anywhere that I can find (and I have just about any Gaelic dictionary ever printed). Which, given the fact that Sgitheanach has been well attested for a long time, makes it difficult to argue for a derivation from *sgiathan. Akerbeltz (talk) 23:28, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

I entirely agree with the above. I'd like to point out though that the diminutive is attested. The song "Nach truagh leat mi, 's tu 'n Éirinn" (a Skye song, unless my memory fails me) has the beautiful line "O nan robh agam sgiathán caol, gun siubhlainn thar nan sléibhtean" (accent added on á to mark non-schaw pronunciation, as the song was taught to me), and no indication of plurality, even though metre would not support a plural adj "caola". CecilWard (talk) 15:50, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

A further point occurs to me, in support of Akerbeltz's position: historical phonology in which we start with /ske:t-/ leads us to expect the possibility of long e-breaking regularly which gives us sgiath- not sgith-. CecilWard (talk) 09:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

CecilWard, nope, that doesn't prove anything I'm afraid, because that is highly unlikely to be the diminutive -an rather than the plural -an for a number of reasons. It's a woman speaking and the image of a woman bearing a narrow shield is ... unexpected as imagery in a Gaelic song; phrase finally, the -a on plural adjectives normally does not show in speech; and in the context, "on narrow wings" makes much more sense (and is also the way it's glossed usually for this song). The fact that the occasional speaker may have a clearer than schwa vowel here could be for a number of reasons, not least of all the fact it's a song, which tends to distort "stuff".

But yes, the breaking of long e: would certainly yield that /ia/ or /iə/ in this type of coda. Akerbeltz (talk) 10:42, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Norse

In standardized Old Norse spelling Skýey would mean Cloud-Isle. Haukur (talk) 21:04, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Perfectly understandable MhicDhuibh ;) & thanks @ Haukur. Out of curiosity, why ey not øy? Incidentally, should the Isle of Skye Music Festival be mentioned or at least linked under Culture?

øy is the Norwegian version. Check the dictionary entry for ey. Also check out ský Haukur (talk) 22:09, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Anyway, it looks to me like an Old Norse form of Skýey isn't actually attested (at least I can't fin it anywhere) so it should technically by marked with an asterisk, *Skýey. Haukur (talk) 22:11, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm going out on a limb here, because I haven't got an old Norse version of Hákonar saga Hákonarsonar with me at the moment, but I seem to remember the name "Skíð" being used? I'll check it out. "Schid" is used in Latin in a document from c. 1110[5] Not sure if this is relevant to the discussion here, but I'm curious now. The latin "Schid" doesn't seem a logical transformation of old Norse *Skýey. --Barend (talk) 11:05, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Sort of makes sense from the Gaelic POV. the -th- which in some cases is realised as /h/ in Gaelic indicates that this isn't a case of historic hiatus but the result of historic /θ/. Sooo... the recorded sciti(s) would indeed result in Old Gaelic /s̪gʲiθ-/ which in turn would lead to modern /s̪g̊ʲi.-/.

Ok, I'm sure this counts as research but I'll spell it out anyway (going out on a limb myself...).

• let's assume the early recorded forms scetis and scitis are correct (as correct as we'll get) names for either a tribe or

location (Skye). We can safely disregard the ending (they look like plurals to me... but my Greek/Latin is weak).

• this would result in Old Irish/Gaelic /s̪gʲiθ-/. I did some digging and the ending -an also seems to have worked as a simple nominaliser (cf meadh > meadhan "middle" (n.)).
• combining -an with another ending (like -ach (adjectivaliser) or -ach (ethnonymiser)) is fairly frequent in Gaelic (cf àrd "high" > àrdan "pride" > àrdanach "haughty")
• the string /s̪gʲiθ-/ + /an/ + /əx/ > /s̪gʲiθanəx/ does not violate any rules of word formation and phonology. It would results in /s̪g̊ʲihanəx/ which in turn can produce the reflexes */s̪g̊ʲi.anəx/ /s̪g̊ʲi.ənəx/ /s̪g̊ʲiənəx/ and /s̪g̊ʲiaːnəx/.
• so the string would be almost analogous to Calēdonii/καληδόνιοι (Ptolemy) > Cailleanach /kaʎanəx/ (cf Dunkeld Dùn Chailleann).

If I had to make an educated guess, I'd say that sciti was an ethnonym more than a placename but that it's a likely root for sgiathanach. If this is the case, then the older form would be Sgitheanach and the Sgiathanach a case of re-analyis in recent centuries to move away from the opaque sgith- and approach the more obvious sgiath "wing". And that's probably where it stops. The source was likely to have been a Brythonic language but which one and which word... anyone happen to know Old Brythonic for wing and cloud? But given the scarcity of Brythonic material this far north it would be indicative at best... Akerbeltz (talk) 13:03, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I checked Hákonar saga Hákonarsonar (written by an Icelander in Norway in the 1260s). It uses the name "Skíð". I'm removing "Skýey" as the Norse name of the island from the article. From what Akerbeltz writes, if the root of the Old Gaelic name was /s̪gʲiθ-/, the Norse form "Skíð" seems entirely logical, and it makes sense that the name was borrowed from Gaelic to Norse, not the other way around.--193.160.157.241 (talk) 16:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Fascinating... that kinda explaing An Cuan Sgìth at the same time. I presume Skíð has no literal meaning in Norse?

Either way, we need to amend the etymology section because the other chap has the (AFAWK) unattested *Skýey. Presumably we can use the reference on the Hákonar saga Hákonarsonar page as a reference for "Skíð"? Akerbeltz (talk) 17:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've rephrased the etymology section a bit and left a reference to the Cloud Isle name given by Murray but made it clear that Skíð is the attested form.

If you feel the style isn't quite right, feel free to edit, it *is* a bit long and in places probably almost counts as OR... although we really just looked up some words ;) Akerbeltz (talk) 17:56, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Hopefully some (nearly) final tweaks in place. I have added a ref from the saga page and trusted that m'learned Norse speaker's view is confirmed there. I'll have a look at the additional etymology text next. I'd feel more comfortable with another reference or two. I realise they may not refer directly to the specific tale of 'Sgiathanach' in its many forms, but something that would confirm the general rules of Gaelic from which the wording is derived would help. Also - do you have a publisher for Borgstrøm (1941)? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 18:51, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

A few changes to this latter section and a couple of questions. I am not at all sure the wording reads more fluidly in prose rather than list form, but MOS prefers it this way.

• Can you provide a publisher for MacBain, and (he shows his ignorance)
• is it "is scíath (cognate of modern Welsh ysgwydd " or "cognate with" or possibly "cognate to" and
• in "may simply be a case of re-analysis" is this another way of saying "may simply be a case of folk etymology"? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 19:07, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• Borgstrøm was published by Norwegian University Press 1941; MacBain by Gairm in 1982 ISBN 901771-68-6 (sorry for missing that out). Borgstrøm is a good source for phonological development, along with Magne Oftedal The Gaelic of Leurbost Norsk Tidskrift for Sprogvidenskap, Oslo 1956 and Kim McCone (ed) Stair na Gaeilge Coláiste Phàdraig, Maigh Nuad 1994 ISBN 0-901519-90-1.
• it's cognate with
• folk-etymology vs re-analysis are not far apart. If I remember rightly folk etymology is more conscious, re-analysis a little less so. Since there is a link for folk-etymology but not re-analysis, we can just stick with f-e. It's hard to tell at this stage anyway.

I'll have a look at your edits later, gotta go out now. (I'm enjoying this btw!) Akerbeltz (talk) 19:21, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I've updated the details on MacBain -- 1982 was just a litho reproduction. The original print was by Eneas MacKay of Stirling in 1911 (see http://www.archive.org/details/etymologicaldict00macbuoft)

Surely folk etymology must be a widely held belief in the general public, and in that sense is a specialised form of reanalysis (and surely "analysis" implies a concious process?). I'd certainly accept that "winged isle" is becoming accepted among younger people and learners, but the old folks don't seem quite as aware of it. As such, it's certainly becoming folk etymology, but it's a hard call to say whether it is already....

Prof Wrong (talk) 22:45, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The word "skíð" does have a meaning in Old Norse - it means ski. One could probably make exciting etymological theories based on that - but I'm afraid it's possibly just a coincidence. The reference provided for Skíð sort of works, but not quite, the translation uses the name which Skíð would have evolved into in modern Norwegian, which is "Skid". A completely correct reference would have to be to an Old Norse version of the saga, I'll try to find one, because I'm curious about the names of some of the other islands as well. And, what do you know, there I found one. Heimskringla also mentions "Skíð", in the saga of Magnus Barefoot. It is used in a skaldic poem: "Hungrþverrir lét herjat hríðar gagls á Skíði"[6] (dative case). The wikisource translation gives "The hunger battle-birds were filled

In Skye with blood of foemen killed".[7] The saga is from c. 1230, but the poem would be c. 1100. So Skíð is well attested as the Old Norse name from 1100 at least. I'm curious about what is the source of "Skuyö".--Barend (talk) 22:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the best evidence of this folk-etymology establishing itself is the change in the spelling, from older (I checked some of my older books) Sgitheanach to Sgiathanach which resembles sgiath more and moves away from the opaque sgith. The fact that the pronunciations collected by Borgstrøm back then (before learners and the web) reflect that, suggests an old process, whether conscious or not.

Skis... I think you are right about the coincidence. The entry above sgiath in MacBain is for sgiath "shield" which he gives as a cognate of Norse skið meaning "firewood, billet of wood, tablet". It looks like the two Gaelic words ultimately have the same root but I think the correspondence of Skye/Skíð to the word for skis is, as you say, coincidence. Thanks for digging up all the Norse stuff! Akerbeltz (talk) 22:59, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Barend has done a good job here. Finnur Jónsson's dictionary of the poetic language lists these occurrences of the name:

• Björn krepphendi: http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/skindex/bkrep.html
• Gísl Illugason: http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/skindex/gislm.html
• Nafnaþulur: http://www.hi.is/~eybjorn/ugm/skindex/thul4b.html#bbb
• Verse in Örvar-Odds saga: http://www.snerpa.is/net/forn/orvar.htm Haukur (talk) 23:10, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Great stuff folks. Re: "I'm curious about what is the source of "Skuyö"." - Murray was the best writer of his generation on the subject of the western seaboard of Scotland. However, he was not an academic or (so far as I know) a speaker of a Scandinavian language or Gaelic. The complete wording he uses is "To the Norsemen it was Skuyö (pronounced Skya) meaning Isle of Cloud, which is rendered in the Gaelic as Eilean a' Cheo." There is no obvious reference provided for this statement. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 08:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Right. I am pretty close to saying flat out that Murray must be plain wrong. "Skuyö" certainly wouldn't be pronounced "Skya" in any Nordic language or dialect that I know of. It sounds like he was outside of his field of expertice.--Barend (talk) 10:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

It is probably not relevant but I now notice that Dean Munro's original spelling may have been "This iyle is callit by the Erishe Ellan Skyane, that is to say in Englishe the Wingitt ile, be reason it has maney wyngs and points lyand furth frae it, through the devyding of thir loches." Anyone care to speculate about the co-incidence that it has been suggested that St Kilda may be derived from "the Old Icelandic Skildir ("shields") " ? Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 08:22, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

The source language for St Kilda was most certainly not Gaelic but to me, Skildir looks like an unlikely candidate. The Gaelic name for it is Hiort(a) [hirˠʃd̪̊ə]. If the [h] is historic it's almost certainly not Goidelic in origin because h is disallowed as a root initial except as the result of lenited t but that is consistently represented as orthographic th. I have always considered it as a cognate of Kilda though, you could derive one from the other, either by leniting Kilda to [çirˠʃd̪̊ə] and then reducing the [ç] to [h] (there is some evidence of this being an occasional process in Gaelic, cf gach uile > a h-uile) although the change from l to r is a little more odd, but not impossible. Alternatively (early?) Gaelic [çirˠʃd̪̊ə] could be the source with strengthening of the [ç] to [k] because Scots(?) does not allow initial [ç]. Or, yet another possibility is Gaelic hypercorrection of [çirˠʃd̪̊ə] or [hirˠʃd̪̊ə] to *Kirta when quizzed on the place name (backforming lenition is very common in Gaelic, cf hogshead > tocasaid, hallur > talla, vervain > bearbhain). Where was I? Skildir.... I think it's unlikely as Gaelic is quite happy with sc/sk initials. It depends on the pronunciation though, at the back of my mind I have a [ʃ] for sk or is that entirely modern? If this was [ʃildir] in Norse, it *could* the the source of *[hildə] in Gaelic (through lenition). Not sure about the motivation for l > r though, I need to check but it's possible that Gaelic dislikes -ld- after a front vowel. Am I making *any* sense? LOL Akerbeltz (talk) 09:03, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Old Norse skildir (shields) will have been pronounced [scildir]. In Old English [ʃ] came early but in Old Norse it came late (Faroese) or not at all (Icelandic). The easy way to remember is that 'skirt' is Norse and 'shirt' is English. Haukur (talk) 09:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok I'll remember that. Would that be [c] as in a palatal stop? Akerbeltz (talk) 12:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Though when exactly it became palatalized is a bit hard to tell. Haukur (talk) 12:38, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok... though that doesn't make the Kilda problem any easier to solve. [sc] would just end up as [ʃd̊ʲ] in Gaelic but I'd expect the whole word to look something like [ʃd̊ʲild̊ʲɪɾʲ]. I checked -ld- and it's very rare in Gaelic except in the odd loanword so that may well have promted to l > r change to avoid the unpopular cluster. I checked the date on St Kilda Gaelic and palatal -st- ought to result in [ʃd̊ʲ] or [sʲd̊ʲsʲ] (the second one is weird). I dunno, I'm almost certain that Kilda and Hiort have the same origin but which way round I can't tell... It just doesn't look Goidelic either so a Norse origin seems logical but you'd have to go through a few hoops to derive it from skild-. Not impossible though - you'd have to simplify the cluster to *sild(ir) or *kild(ir) and then invoke the change from -ld- to -rd- and lenition to give you *[hiɾd̪] and [hirˠʃd̪̊] (Gaelic developed in intrusive [ʃ] in rt clusters; St Kilda is reported to have had forms with and without it). So it's phonologically possible... but why call the island after a shield? Is this an attested form in Norse by the way? Akerbeltz (talk) 16:49, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Right, get your sagas out ;) Oftedal says the following: [hirˠʃd̪̊] "St Kilda" Old Norse Hirtir (Prestssaga Guðmundar Arasonar chapter 49; the name may be pre-Norse but has certainly been transmitted through Norse).

So it looks like we went Hirt(ir) > Hiort leaving the English form Kilda to explain. I suspect hypercorrection of Gaelic Hiort Akerbeltz (talk) 17:18, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. Hirtir is plural of hjörtr (stag). Haukur (talk) 17:42, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Very... it's not proof of course but hjörtr would actually be a better source for [hirˠʃd̪̊] because in hirtir I'd sort of expect a palatal final [d̊ʲ]. But why stags? I guess they might have taken some there to roam and ocassionally kill, a bit like the Gaels did with sheep. Weird. Akerbeltz (talk) 18:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I thought the theory of "shields" for St Kilda relied on the Norse name of Haskeir being incorrectly ascribed to what we now call St Kilda by a few cartographers. That theory suggests that there is no etymological link between Hiort and St Kilda, which certainly seems likely.

Well it wouldn't be the first name to have derived from a misunderstanding of some sort and would neatly explain why St Kilda has the Saint whereas the Gaelic Hiort never takes naomh. Given that we seem to have most major places mentioned in the sagas (how convenient, cheers Erik Bloodaxe!), do we have a mention of Skilðar or Skilðir though for St Kilda? We have at least one mention of Hirtir and we can't just ignore that.

Mind, mapmapkers are not immune to folk-etymologies and Nicholas de Nicolay may simply have done a bit of on the spot folk-etymologising and entered Skildar because he fancied it. ...they so needed a citation needed tag in those days ;)

It is still easier to derive Hiort(a) from Hirt(ir) (or even Kilda) than from Skilðar... Akerbeltz (talk) 10:41, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I want to propose an etymoligical link with the name 'Cat'. It might stem from a Brythonic Pictish root word. Derivations are found in 'Caithnes', 'Cataibh' (Sutherland) and 'Inse Catt' (Shetland). Though for 'Sutherland' it's explained that it derives from Norse 'Sudhrland', but often local words are formed in similar sounding words of the language of new settlers, especially if they make sense. I know, that this doesn't mean that 'sudh' is related to 'skidh'; it's only a suggestion. No etymology is given for 'shet' in 'Shetland'; because of the offered relation to 'Cat', I simply guessed, that 'cat' and 'shet' are later forms of the same root, something like 'scat' or 'scet'. I thought that the forms 'shet' and 'suther' are derivates where the 'k' / 'c' has been lost, while in the other forms 'cat', 'cait' and 'caith' the 's' has been lost. When reading the article about Skye I found the words 'skidh', 'scitis', 'scetis', 'sketis' and thought about the similarity to 'shet' and 'cat'. I feel supported by the mention of Akerbeltz: "I'd say that sciti was an ethnonym more than a placename". Maps show the kingdom of Cat comprising this area. This might look like a placename, but for Shetland I found the description 'Inse Catt, meaning "islands of the Cat people"'; I don't if this is true, anyway tribal names and place names often match. Truchses (talk) 18:54, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not I agree, this sounds a little like Original Research, but if you can find a reputable source, that's fine. Ben MacDui 19:33, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Shetland is derived from Norse Hjaltland. Which, I'm sorry to say, makes a link between Cat- and Shet- even unliklier. And afaik, Skye was never considered to be Norse enough for the Gaels to regards that as being outside the Gàidhealtachd. Similarly, Cat- as an old ethnonym is well documented in Caithness, Sutherland and Orkney and Shetland (which used to be Innse Cat in Gaelic) but not along the West Coast. I think skitis - beyond what has been said - is best left alone untile archeologists dig up something new ;) Akerbeltz (talk) 20:52, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Sgitheanach vs Sgiathanach

The article currently states:

The Gaelic name for the Isle of Skye is An t-Eilean Sgiathanach (older spelling Sgitheanach).

I'd like to give a few examples that contradict this statement:

The Sabhal Mór Ostaig site uses An t-Eilean Sgitheanach in their address. [www.smo.uhi.ac.uk] It is also the only translation for Skye they give in the SDBG -- Sgiathanach is not listed. [8]

The Skye and Lochalsh site has a logo graphic reading Sgitheanach. The word also appears in Google's blurb. [www.skye.co.uk]

Gaelic Wikipedia has An t-Eilean Sgitheanach as both a category and an article. An t-Eilean Sgiathanach doesn't even occur as a redirect currently. [gd.wikipedia.org]

Using Google as a poor man's corpus gives 12,500 hits for "An t-Eilean Sgitheanach" and only 876 for "An t-Eilean Sgiathanach".

A similar search at www.scottish.parliament.gov.uk give 46 for Sgitheanach and 2 for Sgiathanach.

(I don't know what the Ordnance Survey have to say about this as they don't include Gaelic titles for their Skye maps.)

All this strongly supports Sgitheanach as the term with massively greater currency, so even if Sgiathanach is a newer orthographic form, I contest the labelling of jkl;;;;lkkkkkkkkkjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjjkly8lSgiathanach as "modern" and "Sgitheanach" as an "older" form. I feel this distorts the picture somewhat.

Prof Wrong (talk) 11:15, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, good point, I agree, especially after the above discussion Sgiathanach is a more modern variant. I though that's what Dr Taylor had used (he's the one to go by as a rule of thumb) but he does't, he has Sgitheanach too. I'll change it. Akerbeltz (talk) 12:01, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Skye/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review. I am in the process of reviewing this article. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 18:57, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah Ruhrfisch, it's yourself (as my Highland - English speaking neighbours might say). Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 10:16, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Always a pleasure when our paths cross, congratulations on this good article, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 10:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Good article nomination on hold passed

This article's Good Article promotion has been put on hold. During review, some issues were discovered that can be resolved without a major re-write. This is how the article, as of June 6, 2008, compares against the six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: Pass, generally very well written, although there are a few places that could be polished.

2. Factually accurate?: Pass. Quite nicely done and well referenced in general

3. Broad in coverage?: On hold - needs more information on climate besides just rainfall. See St Kilda, Scotland at the time of its GA pass for an example.

Will attend to asap.

I have now drafted something but getting hold of consistent data, especially for average low temperature has been tricky. I think I can find a better source and I'll update it then. Ben MacDui^Talk/Walk 09:14, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

This looks good enough in first draft form to me to pass the article - congratulations Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 10:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

4. Neutral point of view?: Pass, seems quite neutral to me

5. Article stability? Pass, looks like several editors are working together well on this

6. Images?: Pass, very nice images and well placed - watch some captions, like the one for the Skye Bridge

Tweaked Skye Bridge.

Please address these matters soon and then leave a note here showing how they have been resolved. After 48 hours the article should be reviewed again. If these issues are not addressed within 7 days, the article may be failed without further notice. Thank you for your work so far. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion the new climate section (plus the addition of references for the few unreferenced sections noted below) mean this article now meets the good article criteria. Congratulations and keep up the good work, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 10:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions for improvement

Suggestions for improvement (things I noticed reading, not necessary to fix these for GA, but useful if going for FA):

• The link to opaque is a redirect to the dab opacity. I think opaque context is meant.

 Done - or at least unlinked.

• Would it make sense to give a modern English "translation" of "This Ile is callit Ellan Skiannach in Irish, that is to say in Inglish the wyngit Ile, be reason it has mony wyngis and pointis lyand furth fra it, throw the dividing of thir foirsaid Lochis".[8] for those whose primary language is not English (This isle is called Ellan Skiannach in Irish, that is to say in English the winged isle, the reason being it has many wings and points of land coming forth from it, through the dividing of the aforesaid Lochs)

Do you mean moving the translation into the main text?

I did not realize the translation was in the note - sorry I missed it, but if a reviewer missed it, perhaps it should be in the main text (then again, consider who the reviewer is, not everyone is as dense as I am ;-) ) Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 13:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• It is unclear to me what the quoted Icelandic / Old Norse text is in in a skaldic poem in the Heimskringla from c. 1230: Hungrþverrir lét herjat hríðar gagls á Skíði[12] that includes the line: "The hunger battle-birds were filled in Skye with blood of foemen killed".[13] . Is it the title of the poem or is it the line that is later given in English? Unlike Tolkien, I am not a member of the coal biters club.

Hopefully  Done. I was in the Fowl and Foetus once you know.

I did not know and am insanely jealous Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 13:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

• Needs a ref: the placename may be from a substratum language and simply be opaque. and This suggests the Irish form sgiathán is an innovation and an unlikely root for Sgiathanach. Finally, deriving the name from Scáthach involves two main problems: there would be a case of unexplained palatalisation of [s̪g̊] to [s̪g̊ʲ] and an unexplained extra element -an-.

Hopefully  Done.

• Explain the the "Little Minch" in Etymology - see WP:PCR
• Hopefully  Done.
• Refs should be in numerical order ... no plans to change signage or discontinue the English name.[19][1] is one example of several.

Understood.

• There is a template to indent block quotes to the right of images - for Martin Martin's geological observations quote

OK - thanks.

• Link unusual terms, like crofting in Strathaird is a relatively small peninsula close to the Cuillin hills with several small crofting communities.[28]

 Done

• Per WP:HEAD: capitalization of some section headers needs to be fixed, i.e. change to "Norse rule"; do not use "the" or special characters, i.e. change to "Clans and Scottish rule"; and do not repeat the title, i.e. change to just "Gaelic" or perhaps "Gaelic usage"
• The Norse rule section is very short - could it be expanded or combined with the preceding section (Prehistory and Norse rule)?
• The lead refers to clans Leod and Donald, the "Clans and Scottish rule" section to MacLeod and MacDonald - be consistent or explain for those who do not know these are the same.
• Also avoid overlinking - Clan MacDonald and Clan Donald (same link) are each linked in the same section.
• Queen Scáthach is mentioned twice (Etymology and Clans) - should she be briefly explained (she is linked)?
• I would also explain Clearances and a "clearance village" in more detail (yes Clearances is linked, but a brief explanation is helpful) and give the year for the Battle of the Braes
• Per WP:MOS#Quote Robert Carruther's remark circa 1852 that "There is now a village in Portree containing three hundred inhabitants". needs a reference right after the full stop.
• First paragraph of Gaelic in Skye section needs a ref
• Why the capitalization of Gaelic Rock Band Runrig started in Skye ...?

Sheer foolishness.  Done

• Referencing the novels about Skye is fine, but the comments made about the novels (Woolf's island is not much like the real Skye, etc.) need better refs.
• In Wildlife, although their dates have been given before, I would repeat them for the Martin and Johnson quotations to provide context
• Some references need to have the same format - compare current refs 75 and 76.

Hope this helps, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 20:09, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I've dealt with point 1, 3 and 4 I think. I'm not sure what you meant with explaining the Little Minch though. Akerbeltz (talk) 01:06, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Forgot to say this: the reference at the end of the section Gaelic in Skye is the source for all the data in that section. I originally had the ref in the heading but someone (probably sensibly) moved it. Do we need to ref the same document twice? Akerbeltz (talk) 01:09, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, some opinions may differ, but I would say yes, each paragraph should have its own ref (even if it repeats a ref). For FAC, which I assume this will go to eventually, an unreferenced paragraph is a big red flag. As noted, these are suggestions for improvement, but do not need to be done to pass GA. It is fine with me if you want to strike the ones that have been resolved / dealt with. Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I am not Scottish (alas) and I did not know the Little Minch was the strait of water to the west of Skye. So this This would also explain the use of an apparent root form in An Cuan Sgith(e) the "Little Minch" ... made less sense. See WP:PCR Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 01:24, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, reworded the Little Minch bit, should be clear now and added the second ref to the Gaelic section (might as well do it now). Can't help with the weather, it rains a lot but that's anecdotal :b Akerbeltz (talk) 11:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Looking good - glad to see so many responses already Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 13:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Please let me know if I can be of further help, congratulations again on the GA! Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 10:34, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

World War 2 plane crash

Can anyone shed light on any details of the american plane that crashed into the trotternish ridge? I've heard numerous local stories but would like some facts on it anything at all please! Kilmuirman —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kilmuirman (talk • contribs) 18:04, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

According to to www.aircrashsites-scotland.co.uk it was a B-17G Flying Fortress that crashed on Beinn Edra on 3 March 1945. They have a surprising amount of detail about it. Ben MacDui 18:47, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

More recently (1982) there was a USAF F-111 crash on the ridge that killed both pilots.[9] GetMKWearMKFly (talk) 12:47, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Promethius

Is it worth mentioning that this island was where the final cave drawings were found in the recent Promethius movie?