User talk:Jimbo Wales

(Manual archive list)

The future of Wikipedia

Hello Jimbo. As someone who is now dipping their toes into Wikipedia can I ask you how you think it will evolve in the future. As good as it is (and I am impressed by the depth and accuracy of many of the articles) do you see wikipedia continuing for a long time to come yet? As I understand it there is competition out there though not with the same success, but there is bound to be another wiki out there now or in the future that will one day compete. What do you think can be done to stay ahead of the competition? --Jonty Monty (talk) 09:44, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Ps did you enjoy the bagpipes? :). --Jonty Monty (talk) 09:50, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

• I'll leave space, above, for Jimbo to answer, but Jimbo has made many statements about the future of Wikipedia. He has indicated that point-and-click updates to articles, as WYSIWYG edits, are likely to become more popular among a wide range of editors. When asked about millions of articles, he noted the major articles could be translated between the expanding 260 languages, and Wikipedia would have far more than 100 million articles. Also, he has noted that he intends to stay involved with Wikipedia for many years to come. -Wikid77 (talk) 20:53, 12 October, revised 12:26, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Personally I see the future of Wikipedia being a fairly bleak place but I sincerely hope I am wrong and I continue to edit in the hope that I am. Every day we make it harder for people to edit, particularly those that are not intimately familiar with Wikipedia's thousands of rules, policies and guidelines. We block more and more users and IP's for smaller infractions and develop more tools to restrict editing like Pending Changes and ask ourselves why more people aren't editing. Why would they? It is human nature that if something is hard to do, we will do something else so as we implement new ways to make it harder for people to contribute by protecting templates, articles and even entire namespaces we damage the foundation of why Wikipedia was established and we erode the concept of "Anyone can edit". We need to get back to our beginnings of Assuming good faith and foster a spirit of cooperation and trust rather than implement new ways of showing our editors, future editors and readers how much we don't trust them and how we think that we need to protect Wikipedia and its articles and content from the people we should be hoping will be positive contributors. Kumioko (talk) 21:49, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

• Improvements everywhere as surveyed users said would edit if knew where to help: In one of those WMF surveys, the least worry of editors was the "editing technology" (9% concern). However, more users (41%) said they would edit more if they knew "where to help" and "avoid conflicts" or arguments with other editors. Our coordination tools have had "growing pains" due to time to learn what is effective, while some over-sized templates (or too-small template limits) have hindered quick tasking for editors to follow (1.6 million articles reformat 2-4x slower than needed). The monthly WP:GOCE drives have been fantastic to fix listed articles, averaging "99 copy-edit errors" each. However, I think we could switch other tasks to 2-week edit-drives, to gain people who could not commit for a whole month, and have more short drives. The slow Javascript tool-buttons or over-size templates (I mean S-L-O-W) have been disastrous to "quick-moving people" who do not want to wait "37 seconds" to edit-preview a major article. Hence, the new Template:Cite_quick can show that same article in 10 seconds, and allow 900 cites, not just 400. Tests with the new Lua script cite modules are showing similar results (scaled up because the test2 wiki seems 2x slower than enwiki). Plus, Lua modules can be more complex, and analyze article text faster than ever before, to allow modules to "suggest" other improvements during editing. The edit-window tool buttons are being redone faster. Meanwhile, some bots are getting better: DASHBot is updating citations to insert the archive-URL links, to have fewer deadlinks in future months. The copyvio bots (VWBot) are listing about 20 articles per day, some with "close paraphrase" text. Ironically, that was another area hindered by over-size templates, but the common link-menu Template:La was just updated 40% smaller to allow collaboration pages to be larger without hitting the too-small template limits. As more people discuss templates, from a scientific view, then template limits could be raised to reasonable limits. Just recently, the NewPP preprocessor limits were changed because some French Wikipedia templates tried to implement a huge database (knowledge base) in templates (perhaps like {cite_doi}'s 6,000 database subtemplates), and the French template crashed an Apache server (so the template limits were changed). I guess my point is that WP is coming out of the technology "dark ages" where better techniques are being used for templates, plus smart Lua modules, and WYSIWYG editing for newcomers. Plus, Jimbo has been pressing for better tools as well. And those technologies should quicken our coordination tools, without S-L-O-W editing nor asking people to edit during whole one-month drives because the tools were too slow to fix much in two weeks. We could not seriously ask people to help edit major articles if everything stayed as slow as in recent months. Faster editing, faster templates, and smarter tools were needed, and they are being developed in the next 3 months. -Wikid77 21:25, 14 October, 13:06, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Wikid77. It was apparent from your first comments onwards that you are extremely au fait with the technology, something I confess to be lacking. It does though appear that Wikipedia will not lack any new technology going into the future. Something I'm sure will keep it ahead of the game. Jimbo Wales staying for a few years yet will surely be a benefit. I still don't know if he enjoyed the bagpipes though. :) Oh,and thank you for the replies. Jonty Monty (talk) 13:34, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, the current WP technology is already amazing, when used in streamlined mode. I was stunned to realize an entire huge article, even with small templates and 25 images, can be reformatted within 2 seconds for any user-preference image-size setting. Most readers, with image-size setting as 220px, see a cache-copy of each formatted article within 1/5 second. Also, perhaps some questions for Jimbo should go to email, as I am not sure when Jimbo views comments here as being rhetorical, as musings for other readers, rather than being a direct conversation. He has noted he regularly reads within multiple forum websites, so I am unsure how much time he has to respond here. -Wikid77 (talk) 23:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Consider limits and mandatory breaks

• Consider edit-limits, term limits and mandatory wikibreaks: In some articles, the text is slowly slanted by hundreds of tiny edits to remove text phrases, or to slant text "one word at a time". If the system controlled per-article edit-limits, then such "death by 500 tiny cuts" could be thwarted. I have proposed that only suspected editors would be monitored, and any other editor could nominate an editor for edit-limit controls. That would make the concept feasible, rather than restrict the edit-count of every editor at every page. At some point, a person with "600" edits to one article needs to face a limit. Since 2006, the Swedish WP has had those 1-year term limits for admins, to be re-elected during one of 4 quarterly re-elections during the year. Wikibreaks, even for 1 week, can help people to gain a wider perspective. Other types of limits should be considered. -Wikid77 (talk) 21:13, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

  There are a lot of words I could use to describe this proposal. "Stupid" is perhaps the most polite. I especially like the bad faith assumption that people making a lot of edits to an article (e.g.: to maintain one with an ongoing history) are "slowly slanting" it - even if you try to soften your bad faith by claiming only some editors would be "monitored". Term limits for admins is pretty much WP:PEREN, and you have no right to dictate to anyone when they can and cannot edit. Resolute 00:11, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

  My thoughts exactly - not to mention it violates the prime directive of Wikipedia, i.e., anyone can edit. Mugginsx (talk) 15:50, 13 October 2012 (UTC)

Good god, I hope that's not the prime directive. I thought it was something about creating an encyclopedia which assembles the whole of human knowledge for the free use of humanity. Has the process obscured the product? OF COURSE not everyone can edit, see WP:COMPETENCE for an essay that is on the money... Carrite (talk) 16:25, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

"Imagine a world in which every single person on the planet is given free access to the sum of all human knowledge. That's what we're doing." is the closest thing we have to a Prime Directive. "Everyone can edit" is a means to that end, and very very very far down the list.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:49, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Anent your dictum - in many cases the arguments on Wikipedia involve figuring out precisely what is "knowledge" and what is ephemeral "opinion." Sadly, "opinions" win out on many articles, asserting to users that such is "knowledge." While "dry science" articles may work out OK, the areas of sex, religion, politics, history and biography all are generally tainted and do not always follow the precepts of being "knowledge" at all. Collect (talk) 13:47, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

That sounds good, but in actual practice some of WP's most bitter and dysfunctional content wars have dealt with matters of "hard science" ("climate change" and "race & intelligence" come to mind), while a microscopic fraction of the million-ish biographies on WP have had any problem at all. The biggest POV warriors tend to accumulate around (1) matters of nationalism; (2) matters of current politics; (3) matters of debate about current social policy. In general, matters of history and biography are not content war zones. Where to draw the line, if any, on matters of sex is a special case; if there is a problem with the topic of religion is has to do with page "ownership" by adherents. Each of these are relatively minor causes of disruption on En-WP. Carrite (talk) 19:49, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

The most reliable sourcing is fairly well defined for most areas. For example, the academic history sources are fairly well defined. Issues would only arise when people don't stick to them and insist on using lower grade sources that suit their particular POV. Most issues arise because of a lack of objectivity while writing the encyclopedia. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:52, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure we do have some POV warriors who make scores of edits to the same article to slowly move it to their direction, we also have writers who make huge numbers of edits to an article to get it to FA standard. We also have many patient vandal fighters who find themselves reverting vandalism once or twice a day on a particular vandalism target. My suspicion is that an edit limit that stopped individual editors doing more than a certain number of edits on any one article would hit our vandalfighters and FA writers long before it hit the POV editors. We do need better ways to deal with POV editing, but not a solution that was more disruptive to our content writers and our vandalfighters than it was to POV warriors. ϢereSpielChequers 00:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

• Obviously if there is an article that has slowly been degraded by a multitude of tiny edits to now be a POV concern, that should be addressed and the editors that did it sorted out and sanctioned... if this is a hypothetical then? There are MANY HIGHLY contentious articles that I watch, specifically in the Creation-Evolution debates, and there are MANY POV editors that come and go and have all different tactics, from blatant vandalism to the highly annoying WP:TE editors, and anywhere in-between. I'd venture a guess that MOST of the articles that are targets to these kids of POV editors are probably HIGHLY watched and these kinds of edits don't last very long and these kind of editors are quickly identified and dealt with. Tiny word-by-word POV edits are still against policy and if they keep doing it it usually earns a ban... As for implying some sort of "edit count cap" or something, that's pretty silly, there are TONS of HIGH volume editors that are contributing quality edits, and there are probably VERY VERY FEW high volume POV editors trying to do what you say... kinda like throwing the baby out with the bath water, as the expression goes. These articles and editors can be dealt with with existing means.. — raekyt 15:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

Saudi Arabia partnership and censorship

I'm rebooting this discussion, which was excessively emotional and not very well focussed.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
It was recently announced that Wikipedia has formed a partnership with the Saudi Telecom Company and is now offering free Wikipedia access to its users. News has already started about this here. However, there are concerns about censorship that will be conducted by STC, as discussed on the Wiki-en lists here. These concerns are amplified by the fact that this is all being done in collaboration with "Intigral", a company that is known for sophisticated censorship. I think this is an issue that is of concern to all of us, because we don't want to be partnering with a group that is going to censor our content. SilverserenC 15:34, 15 October 2012 (UTC) There is an odd amount of Arabic Wikipedia news today. ;) Also announced today: the UAE are launching their own Wikipedia (UAEpedia.ae), beginning with an Arabic version, but with other languages to follow: [1] And, perfectly timed to coincide with this, the Asian Football Confederation has had to apologise to the UAE for referring to their team as the "Sand Monkeys", a term their writer picked up from ... Wikipedia. [2] Dan Murphy, a journalist and former Middle East correspondent for the Christian Science Monitor, has today criticised the decision of WMF to get into bed with Intigral and the government-owned Saudi Telecom, and has warned that censorship and privacy invasion in Saudi Arabia are far worse than anything that might happen under the UK proposals you recently opposed so vociferously. Dan states that it is "almost criminally irresponsible to encourage young Saudis to edit Wikipedia without warning them of the potential consequences", as the "Saudi government routinely tracks down the identities of internet users and harasses them." Are those concerns realistic, and were they borne in mind when this partnership was constructed? Was this a board decision? And is it possible to release the partnership agreement between WMF and Saudi Telecom? AndreasKolbe JN466 17:02, 15 October 2012 (UTC) I don't think other news is really relevant (besides the first one being possibly timed). And I don't consider Murphy's opinion of Wikipedia to be relevant for anything ever. Not when he's a jerk to everyone. SilverserenC 17:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Regardless of how much of a dick Murphy is; his point stands. How can WM partner and encourage users to edit the wikipedia while it knows full well the dangers inherent in that? These are not "theoretical" dangers; a quick lookup on GV's Advocacy and threatened voices page, or the EFF, would show you that these are real and imminent. Yazan (talk) 17:18, 15 October 2012 (UTC) I don't understand why we would ever partner with an organization that's going to be censoring our content anyways. Seems rather counter-productive to the whole free knowledge thing. We shouldn't be standing for just partial knowledge of certain things of one viewpoint because other people dislike it. In fact, we've stood against that kind of thing time and again. And I really don't agree with compromising our principles like this at this point. SilverserenC 17:21, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Right! What could a professional researcher, editor and journalist with extensive experience in the Arab world, possibly have to say of value about writing non-fiction for a general-interest audience or about the politics and pitfalls of jumping into bed with the Saudi government? As a long time war correspondent, who has also worked closely with Arab dissidents (and the groups that help them), the odds that I might know anything about internet security challenges and dangers in the region are slim indeed. So best to plug up your ears, shout even worse than Greg Kohs!, and wait until the storm passes. (Isn't it a little early for us to be trotting out our Halloween bogeymen?) That said, "Silver's" slavish devotion to reading Wikipediocracy is duly noted and appreciated.Dan Murphy (talk) 17:24, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Let's take this to my talk page. Otherwise, this is just going to muddle the discussion. SilverserenC 17:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Well, there's a section on my talk page if you want to continue this, but i'm not going to further this line of discussion here. SilverserenC 17:42, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Silver seren, you made an intemperate remark. I think it would be best to apologize, strike your comment, and move on, rather than pretending to take the high road here while still picking a fight elsewhere. It really doesn't make you look good. Especially when you and Dan Murphy seem to be in agreement about this issue. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 18:44, 15 October 2012 (UTC) My statements have been in response to Mr. Murphy's unsolicited remarks about me, such as calling me an "ignorant, naval gazing child" in the linked WO thread above. Both the response you link and my comment up above is in response to that. I think he's the one that doesn't look good when he makes statements like that about people out of nowhere. Do you think he would ever apologize for his statements? SilverserenC 18:58, 15 October 2012 (UTC) The difference is that you made your statements here which understandably drew Dan Murphy/Bali ultimate to respond here. I don't expect either of you to change your opinion about the other, but have the sense to step back from this rather than making it worse. Delicious carbuncle (talk) 20:07, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Rather than complaining you really should be thanking him for being so complimentary. John lilburne (talk) 20:08, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Mr. Murphy, you write: "As a long time war correspondent..." So I looked at one of your "war" time articles http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Backchannels/2011/0127/Meanwhile-in-Iraq, in which you write: "Another horrific attack on Shiites today. Reuters reports that at least 35 people were killed when a car bomb ripped through the mourning tent at a funeral in the predominantly Shiite Baghdad neighborhood of Shula." Maybe you could explain why "a long time war correspondent" is using Reuters to "report" from Iraq? 109.123.115.222 (talk) 18:51, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Because I was writing a blog a long way from the war zone? I lived in Baghdad/Cairo split time from 2003-2008. Covered the first couple of months of the Libyan revolution, covered Afghanistan, and covered multiple small wars in the 1990s and the early 2000s in Indonesia, Burma, and the Philippines. Thanks for playing.Dan Murphy (talk) 19:04, 15 October 2012 (UTC) The dilemma here seems to be that we can give millions of people free access to our content who otherwise wouldn't have had it but only by cooperating with people who practice censorship. I'd rather there be more access to knowledge in the Arab world then that the WMF remain ideologically pure. This issue of encouraging people to edit who might be subject to persecution seems silly. Its hard enough to edit on a smartphone. Nobody is going to edit on a feature phone. Yes, we're telling millions of people that there is a source of information that exists out there that they can contribute to - and, yes, these people could be subject to repercussions if they contribute (which I'm sure they know better than we do), but the very fact that we're telling them that we want and value their contributions is pretty extraordinary in a country as undemocratic as Saudi Arabia. I do agree with Andreas, however, that given the controversial nature of this partnership, the more that the community can know about exactly what was agreed to the better.GabrielF (talk) 19:22, 15 October 2012 (UTC) I just want to throw in what Saudi Arabia proposed to the ITU for the World Telecommunication Policy Forum 2013 and gives me trouble to keep down my hackles: Contribution to the third draft of the Secretary-General's Report from Saudi Arabia. --／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼ 署名の宣言 19:33, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Second that: Can someone explain what WMF's role in the "partnership" is? We already have ar.wikipedia.org and anyone can freely access it. I'm all for Saudi Arabians getting freer access to the Internet but I don't understand what we have to do with it. I ask because I wouldn't approve of the use of WMF resources to pay for a censored Arabic version any more than I would approve of WMF spending donor funds to release a "child-safe" version in English. Wnt (talk) 20:35, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Apparently, Wikipedia:Wikipedia CD Selection is a "child-safe" version in English. —Wavelength (talk) 20:45, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Hmmm, isn't WP:Merchandise supposed to bring in money? Wnt (talk) 23:27, 15 October 2012 (UTC) Might it conceivably be a good idea for an idle admin to semi-protect the United Arab Emirates national football team article for a while? Because right now, in case no one has noticed, it says "Sand Monkeys" again. AndreasKolbe JN466 01:17, 16 October 2012 (UTC) It's now semi-protected. GabrielF (talk) 01:59, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I personally know nothing about this partnership. I am deeply concerned about any collaboration with people who practice censorship. But I also acknowledge there are many complexities and possibilities. I'll investigate and if I'm unhappy about it, I'll let you know. And if I'm happy about it, I'll let you know. --Jimbo Wales (talk) 02:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

If an article gets a lot of views due to a recent news event

Suicide of Amanda Todd currently has 760,034 views and its existed for less than three days. Is it good to have things like this on Wikipedia, to bring people to Wikipedia, as well as to help bring attention to a serious problem in society? Its currently up for deletion, with some people saying no. Your opinions please. Dream Focus 07:49, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• "to help bring attention to a serious problem in society" is never a good reason to have an article. Having an article "to bring people to Wikipedia" isn't very convincing either, we should have articles because they are on a subject that fits our policies and guidelines, not for external reasons. We want to be a neutral encyclopedia, not a popular forum. Whether we should have that article or not is a fair discussion, but we should certainly not decide to keep it for either of the reasons you provide. Fram (talk) 09:03, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
  • I was actually just asking the founder of Wikipedia for his opinions, but since you posted yours, I'll respond. You say we're not a popular forum, but we cover things that are popular enough to be covered by the media, which is why we seem to have more articles about popular culture than anything else. And the guidelines were never voted on, just argued nonstop by whatever small number of people were around at the time, until one side gave up, and others got their way. Also, see WP:NOTLAW. Dream Focus 09:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)
    • The answer hinges on how we define Wikipedia as an "encyclopedia". Since the entire concept of a print encyclopedia has changed over the last two decades, it is open to interpretations that may very well include topics such as the suicide of Amanda Todd. Viriditas (talk) 10:11, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

People read about it, they want to know what happened, and we tell them, based on reliable sources. That is appropriate. We can't hijack their eyeballs and turn them somewhere else, but maybe we can do something to put the problem in context - find overall statistics from some of the more obscure sources about the incident that describe the overall problem, for example. We have many degrees of freedom here, and deleting articles because someone doesn't like what they talk about is not the best of them. Wnt (talk) 16:35, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

It sounds like you wish to do original research for the article. IRWolfie- (talk) 22:44, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

We're one of the most viewed websites in the world, so the first point is not necessary, and "bringing attention to a serious problem in society" through our articles is very, very POV. In this case however, we aren't bringing the attention, Amanda Todd's suicide did. We are merely covering the event and aftermath. I am very often a person who !votes delete on news topics, but in this case, there is a difference between a widely covered news story, and a widely covered news story that causes a significant public debate. The former often adds little value in an encyclopedia, IMNSHO, but the latter does. Resolute 16:50, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia and bullying

Jimbo, Wikipedia has a huge problem: bullying. Bullies are easy to recognize. For example, the cyber bully user:Tarc bullies this 15-year-old girl even in her death. Look how much sarcasm and stupidity there is in Tarc "delete" comment: "Delete - WP:ONEEVENT, and not likely to be repeated, hurr hurr. But seriously, this is a sort-of variation of missing white woman syndrome, the media's endless fascination with pretty white girls that have Bad Things(tm) happen to them, whether it is being spanked by a father, gone missing in Aruba, or off themselves with a bleach. Tarc (talk) 13:37, 16 October 2012 (UTC)" The Arbitration Committee is well aware that Tarc is a bully. You, Jimbo, are well aware that Tarc is a bully, and yet nobody does a thing to kick this bully off from the community. Jimbo, if nothing is done about bullying on Wikipedia,sooner or later somebody will commit suicide as Camelbinky predicted here.108.60.151.5 (talk) 15:16, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

I've asked Tarc to edit his comment. I don't think your hyperbole is helpful here though. Also, do you have a history of conflict with Tarc that you'd like to mention? Mark Arsten (talk) 16:06, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• Marc, I have never been bullied by user Tarc. 108.60.151.5 (talk) 00:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I responded to his arguments here. Yeah, the "hurr hurr" about a girl who committed suicide from cyberbullying was ... extraordinarily bad PR. But - trolling has its redeeming qualities. Ultimately, if our society's response is solely for people to run around decrying the injustice and asking for the photo creep to be caught and the cyber bullies punished, however emotionally appealing that response might be, the outcome is that we send kids the message that suicide "will make them all pay", and that could kill more people. People should have the right to the whole gamut of emotions here, both nice and nasty; but our editorial decisions should be based on correct interpretation of policy rather than sentiment. Wnt (talk) 16:26, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Tarc always takes a jaded view towards things, and that isn't necessarily bad. Often I agree with him, and while I don't in this specific case, his crudely worded objection has some merit. Not enough to overcome the landslide of opinion in that AfD, but just enough not to dismiss out of hand. The big difference in this case, crystal balling as it may be, is that the national scope of this within Canada is likely to produce lasting change to the legal system. It has led to debates within Commons, while at least one province is already tabling improved laws. However, it is not unfair for one to wonder if there would have been so much interest had it not been a pretty white girl who was the victim of this torment? Resolute 16:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Well first off, Camelbinky didn't predict suicide, he hoped that someone would would commit suicide in order to effect the change that he feels the Wikipedia needs to adopt, and he was soundly rebuked in that thread for expressing such a thing. Second, the "bully" rhetoric is something from the Mbz1 and Daniel Brandt school of harassment. They are charter members of the Tarc Fan Club, though this could always be pot-stirring from some of the junior members...A Nobody, Joehazelton, etc... Who knows. Third, I struck part of the original comment as requested, but the sentiment remains; people kill themselves all the time for a variety of reasons. Our society focuses on the young, the pretty, the supposedly innocent. Why doesn't Steven Good get an article? Why not Ashlynn Conner ? "Reporting what reliable sources say" shouldn't mean just being a bunch of lemmings every time they go into a feeding frenzy about a particular one. Tarc (talk) 18:15, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• Tarc, if you suspect that so many people have a reason to call you a bully,then probably you are a bully.108.60.151.5 (talk) 00:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

  • No, Mrs. Mbz1, it does not. It just means that people like you lie and lie and lie again, hoping that repetition will equal acceptance. This is what you tried, and failed, do do regarding Gwen Gale a few months back, but no one bought into it. This is why you were banned from meta.wikipedia, remember? Tarc (talk) 12:32, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

    Are you talking about that Gwen Gale who no longer feels ok to use her tools "other than dealing with straightforward stuff like 3rr and vandalism", and who has not blocked a single user for the last 5 months or so? If you are talking about that Gwen Gale, it looks to me that Mrs. Mbz1 has succeed in her quest for fairness in regards to Gwen Gale's administrative actions. 31.193.133.159 (talk) 17:01, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS may be a bad reason to keep something, but WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESN'TEXIST is definitely a worse rationale for deletion. You're mentioning recent suicides and asking why we don't have an article. Maybe it's because nobody started one yet! Google gives just one result^[3] for "Steven L. Good" (a different one than yours) - if it were up to me I'd put an article up now based on the two sources, but I know too well that without a few extra news sources I'm likely to have a jackal pack after me on AfD in no time. It's something I ought to do but just can't be bothered. Maybe someone else will. Wnt (talk) 20:13, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Looks like this was a good time to update the peace dove.--Amadscientist (talk) 22:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Well, what Wikipedia seems to exist for seems at least to some at times (me, now) is as a venue for bullying, of the worst, nasty, horrible, suicide-inducing sort. From out-of-control longterm Wikipedia editors, many certified as Wikipedia administrators. I have recently reached the 100,000 edit mark reached by less than 200 wikipedia editors. The overwhelming issue, as I see it, for wikipedia, is how will wikipedia deal with long-term, harassing, nasty, evil wikipedia editors in its inner core of wp:ANI frequentors. I have personally been subject to long-term bullying (wp:harassment) while i have worked on pretty non-controversial topics of well-documented historic sites, and am at no risk personally of committing literal suicide and am not wishing to commit Wikipedia-suicide, but I have become attuned to motivations for suicide and have become attuned to theories about bullying, simply as a result of trying to understand the nasty, long-running, bullying-type attacks against me. I am about ready to write some "DO NOT EVER THINK ABOUT CONTRIBUTING TO WIKIPEDIA" type article aimed at academics, for publication outside of Wikipedia. It is a horrible environment, almost any professional would be crazy to get involved here, because there are no effective mechanisms to stop nasty, horribly, hate-filled long-run programs of attack, which eventually become (in my opinion) conflicts of interest: a long-run bullying attacker within wikipedia has to prove herself or himself correct in attacking a given target, so continues on any excuse whatsoever. That's my main experience with wikipedia. I have enjoyed contributing on non-controversial historic sites topics, but my main learning is about the difficulty of dealing with long-term committed sadistic bullies. --doncram 22:59, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Bullying occurs in all walks of life, but in cyberspace it's so much easier. I suspect the biggest bullies are those who would be too afraid to say boo to a goose in "real life". If Wikipedia is is also prone to bullying (and why wouldn't it be) I could suggest setting up some type of specific page for the bullied to take their grievances. The problem being, if, as you are saying, admins are also prone to bullying, who is to man this page and arbitrate on the complaints. Who monitors those who run the place? Jonty Monty (talk) 23:24, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Bullying happens a lot in Wikipedia. And it is mostly NOT by /via people violating the letter of policies; they quickly get whacked. It IS by people who know how to mis-use policies and guidelines and know how to work the wiki-system to conduct bullying. Some tweaks in the policies and guidelines would go a long way towards helping this. North8000 (talk) 23:30, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

@Doncram: That is a very interesting (and unfortunate) statement. Given your area of historical sites, it seems surprising. That article you mention could be eye-opening. Sorry, that's happened to you. Alanscottwalker (talk) 00:22, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• Thank you, everybody, for standing up against the bully, for not being afraid to confront the barking pitbull and for forcing him to remove at least some port of a very offensive comment. Also thank you for providing your input on bullying that is taking place on Wikipedia.198.105.223.149 (talk) 15:18, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia trademark

I've just come across what looks like a violation of Wikipedia's trade mark - and I'm not sure what to do about it. I looked for contact information on the site concerned, and can see none. Who or what do I pass this over to at this side? Never come across this before... Peridon (talk) 18:20, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

• I believe that User talk:Geoffbrigham is the place for this. Thine Antique Pen (talk) 18:30, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Left him a message. Peridon (talk) 18:41, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

See User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 99#Wikipedia, a wiki (February and March 2012).

—Wavelength (talk) 18:58, 16 October 2012 (UTC)

Sexist comments made against male Wikipedians in a national publication (WSJ)

Did someone say drama?

Per User:Tvoz's comment: "this discussion ought to be happening all over the project".

Look at this recent front-page WSJ article which says "[Wikipedia] disputes have become more frequent over the years. [Tvoz] blames 'an overabundance of testosterone running around the pages.'"

For the discussion at Tvoz's talk page see here. Any thoughts? ~ GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 00:02, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2012-10-15/In the media has a link to the same article.

—Wavelength (talk) 00:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Are you kidding me GabeMC? Are your seriously kidding me? Drop the bloody stick, back away from the horse, and move on with your life. You're badgering Tvoz for making comments that are nearly identical to those made be several Wikimedia staffers. Furthermore, the comments are completely, 100% accurate. And whether they are or not, are you seriously trying to criticize a Wikipedia editor for the personal opinions they expressed to a news media? Are you implying that we can't make comments to the media just because you happen to disagree with them? Or even that the community as a whole disagrees with them? Just because you don't think the sexist culture at Wikipedia is a problem doesn't mean you need to drag this around Wikipedia trying to generate some sort of animosity towards Tvoz for publicly expressing his opinion? The very fact that you're trying to make a big deal out of this, in an antagonistic fashion, laying blame and "winning", is itself a masculinist attitude rooted in patriarchal ways of conversing. Could you please get back to actually improving the encyclopedia? Qwyrxian (talk) 00:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

1) No, I'm not kidding, if someone said "Wikipedia has too many disputes because woman don't compromise", I would have gotten equally disturbed. 2) I think it's ironic that you defend her "right" to make sexist remarks while actively trying to squash my "right" to complain about them. 3) Its not a job Qwyrxian, I am an unpaid volunteer! Admins shouldn't treat editors as their employees. 4) I took a 10,000 word article (Pink Floyd) through FAC during the Beatles mediation, so don't preach to me about improving the encyclopedia. 5) "laying blame ... [is] a masculinist attitude rooted in patriarchal ways of conversing", well, if you knew the history of this dispute a little better, you would know that Tvoz has done exactly that when it comes to me and my brief involvement in the Beatles dispute. She has repeatedly claimed that I have been "driving this for years", when in fact she is well aware that my involvement began around 18 months ago, while hers began more than 5 years ago! 6) Your claim that an increase in Wikipedia disputes correlates directly with an increase in male editors is a logical fallacy with no direct scientific support. Take a look at this article that purports that testosterone increases honesty! Therefore, female editors are less honest and more manipulative right? Do you see the folly in your overgeneralization? ~ GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 00:40, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

• From Wikipedia:Discrimination: "In discrimination notion is included any discrimination on base of: gender" And: "Banned activities: 4.Using offensive and discriminative language and attitude: words, phrases, etc. meaning to harm, offend, belittle editor's contribution."

E.g. "typical of adolescent boys, or super-annuated ones", "It's adolescent behavior I am talking about", "people in the minority ... are in the better position to recognize and identify it than those in the majority", "testosterone-driven" adolescent behavior", "That's one-upmanship, bullying, and it just isn't particularly a trait of women in arguments that I have observed", "I didn't make it up - we are not all the same", "I'm glad the reporter chose that quote, because it encapsulates my sense of what happens here", "when I talk about adolescent behavior, bullying, one-upmanship, territorialism", "The need to win - the status-seeking - territory marking - is what I've been talking about, and like it or not, it is widely associated with adolescent male behavior, hence, in a word, testosterone", "I'm not going to get into a diatribe about the patriarchy here, but you can guess what my conclusions are", "I of course said a lot more to the reporter than just that quote ... which I totally stand behind", etcetera.

What Tvoz is espousing is a clear-cut case of gender bias and discrimination. ~ GabeMc ^{(talk|contribs)} 01:04, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Your attitude makes me so angry I could scream. I'm furious. You're comments here and on Tvoz's talk page are the perfect example of twisting the word "discrimination" into the exact opposite of what it means. It's like people who say that using gender-neutral language is discrimination (i.e., allegations of political correctness). It's like people who say that laws that attempt to equalize the number of women and men in business, politics, or other fields are "discrimination". Take your "oh, poor, me, I'm a man, I'm being discriminated against by those narrow-minded feminists" attitude to some men's rights group and get out of our faces here. Wikipedia is set up, by its disputative nature with a quasi-legal system of regulations and ad-hoc juries to benefit those with a masculinist bent. This tends to be (biological) men, since society tends to give men masculinist skills. Through a vicious feedback cycle, this process both empowers masculinists, and ensures that any serious disagreements on Wikipedia because "disputes" rather than "consensus forming discussions". Do we do better than some places? Yes. Are we a victim of our overwhelmingly male population? Absolutely. Do Tvoz's comments make it better, and yours make it worse? Undeniably. Feminism has taught me to look to my own body. And right now my fingers are pounding on the keyboard four times harder than they should be. My stomach is tight and my jaw is clenched. I'm angry. And this is a conversation that needs anger. It needs people of all biological and sociological genders to angrily say, "Don't you (GabeMC) dare call Tvoz's statements discrimination or sexism. Wikipedia's greatest problems come from the masculinist drive to win, and, if possible, to crush one's enemies at the same time." And let me admit: I'm a part of this problem, too. I know exactly how to use the system to "win", and do it when I consider it necessary. I try, but I fail, to leave behind my own masculinist tendencies to promote a better Wikipedia. Wikipedia needs more female editors, and it really needs more feminist writers. Working against that is preserving the status quo, reinventing real, actual discrimination on the internet. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:24, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

(ec/@Gabe) And how exactly are you contributing to the discussion at hand? S'pose Tvoz was right — what are you gonna do about it? Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:25, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

And by the way... I just read the article in WSJ... not once does Tvoz mention "men" or "male". Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 01:33, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Testosterone can't be the cause, because Wikipedia has always had a larger number of male editors. Though half the editors don't self-identify sex, and I suspect more of those are women than those who do self-label. The real cause is that a lot of people have put a lot of effort into making articles, and now whoever wins the wars gets to control those accumulated resources and the long shadow they cast from Google. Those who want to simply contribute content keep getting turned off and driven out - there's nobody left who doesn't have some taste for battle by this point. I stick to my position (Fae...) that ethnic/sexual/etc. bias is not uncommon, not an extraordinary accusation, but something we should discuss within the normal range of all the other biases that affect us. Wnt (talk) 04:08, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

All of this is way out into an ontological nightmare land which we aren't going to resolve on Wikipedia, so everyone here who seriously feels concerned about gender discrimination would be well advised to turn their attention to what's going on in places like the Democratic Republic of the Congo or Saudi Arabia. There are bigger issues than the histrionics of one website at play here, and we're never going to resolve this until many much larger, external, problems are dealt with. But I suspect this won't be the end of this thread, so carry on... Hall of Jade (お話しになります) 04:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Introducing this topic on this page is a surreal illustration of the very problem that Tvoz was addressing in the article. The infamous, years-long dispute about whether or not to capitalize the first "t" in "The Beatles" has already been the occasion for a bizarre display of aggression and acrimony that has overflown the confines of numerous polls, mediations and RfCs. It's now spilled over into various other talk pages and now this -- not to mention the national media. It's like the climax of Blazing Saddles, where the barroom brawl spreads from one sound stage to another, then out into the theater and finally out into the street. Talk about testosterone! Jburlinson (talk) 05:52, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

However, let's not forget that some editors are hyper-sensitive in areas such as this. When you have an editor who is willing to be extremely combative over things like a "t"; someone's personal opinion about the cause of battles; or indeed if gets angry if someone says "fuck" every now and then, then the editor clearly needs to be approached differently than most. Indeed, those might be signs that community-based projects are not their forte, but I'm a journalist and not a psychologist. dangerouspanda 09:58, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't call what Tvoz initially said was sexist; but her subsequent comments do tend to suggest some sexist thinking (of the most on-up-man-ship editors I have come across on Wikipedia a good number of them are female, and most [regardless of sex] are older individuals). But I also think GabeMC is doing his best to portray Tvoz's stereotype in what looks a lot like a temper tantrum :S Wikipedias social problems are not specifically driven by testosterone or gender, and I suggest Tvoz needs to get beyond those stereotypes to help emphasise her point (if for nothing else to avoid this sort of bickering). The problems are driven by our social structure, the minimal punishment of bad behaviour and anonymity. --Errant ^(chat!) 10:44, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

As our article states, women have testosterone, too. And an excess of it in women leads to... "increased aggression". Can we stop being silly now and get back to writing an encyclopedia? --Dweller (talk) 12:05, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. This is all childish and ridiculous. I'd be tempted to tell all the participants in this farce to grow a pair, but I shall just make a meta-joke about doing so instead. —Tom Morris (talk) 12:54, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm glad you didn't make that joke--as a man, I'm tired of being a persecuted minority on the internet. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:38, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Speaking as a male prone to argument and all-around d-baggery once in awhile alot of the time, I see nothing in Tvoz's comments that are actually incorrect. If there's butthurt to be had over this, it is over the exposure of an unfortunate truth. Tarc (talk) 15:16, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Shameless advertising

Hi Jimbo -- in case you aren't a regular reader of the Signpost, let me give a pointer to Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2012-10-15/Op-ed, which might interest you (or maybe not). Regards, Looie496 (talk) 00:21, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

And there I thought you were referring to the fact that we have just had yet another Gibraltar DYK on the main page. (Did you know that the historic Rosia Water Tanks, which provided water for Vice Admiral Horatio Nelson's fleet in Gibraltar, were demolished in 2006?) [4] AndreasKolbe JN466 01:17, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Developer resources for pending changes

Is it really the case that there are no developer resources available to fix bugs in pending changes? It's recently come to light that PC returns the latest (unapproved) version to the GoogleBot because Google uses the API call to get the latest version of a page. That seriously reduces the usefulness of pending changes if the unapproved versions are still going into Google and other search engines. Gigs (talk) 00:37, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

I've never understood why we don't simply use flagged revisions as implemented for years in the German and other Wikipedias, at least on biographies. All the various false death reports, and the malicious nonsense with Gideon Levy and Anita Sarkeesian, would never have been seen by the public, and would never have hit the press. AndreasKolbe JN466 01:20, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Based on my experience over the past 9-10 months, I'd say it's the unbelievable torrent of verbiage unleashed by all sides on the topic; I'll feel lucky to come out of closing these discussions alive. When so many people feel the need to expound in more detail than would be required to bore a judge all at once, it has two paradoxical effects; 1. the last people tend to be the ones with the most extreme viewpoints and 2. it prevents anything but the most moderate changes to the status quo, for better or worse. Why do you think other areas run into the same problems? Hall of Jade (お話しになります) 04:03, 17 October 2012 (UTC)

Stalemates and interminable waffle are a problem inherent in the Wikipedia system. It affects pretty much every issue where there is a difference in opinion. Coming back to the original topic, I've just written a blog post on Flagged Revisions. If the pending changes version that is supposed to be used here in the English Wikipedia – to whatever degree pending changes may come to be used in the future – is buggy, then resources should be made available to fix the bugs. WMF revenue has risen more than 12-fold over the past five years; it is hard to understand why, with so much funding available, programming projects suffer delays such as the one that, according to the OP, afflicts the en:WP version of pending changes. AndreasKolbe JN466 15:12, 17 October 2012 (UTC)