Talk:Edward Snowden

Camera Shy

“The More Photographed I Am…the More Dangerous my Situation” -

http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2013/07/more-photographed-more-dangerous/?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

Transparency only goes one way? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:45, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

I think it was stated somewhere that if he was photographed too much, if he tried to sneak out by disguising his appearance, it would be easier to identify him anyway. WhisperToMe (talk) 08:27, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

In the article above, one paragraph below the quote. The concern referenced is facial recognition software. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 00:42, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no logic to this quote at all. Snowden's face is clearly photographed for facial recognition software. Besides that, the government has access to his photographic creds for facial recognition purposes, which he would have had to show to get to his day job. To take this claim seriously is stunningly credulous. What the quote does do, however, is continue to dramatize his situation.Leslynjd (talk) 21:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

It's Snowden's quote, and an explanation of it. Belief or not is not part of the equation. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 22:28, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Not a reliable source as far as I can tell. The site is described as a blog and there's no evidence of editorial review. Moreover the "explanation" reads more as informed speculation to me. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:42, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

That sounds reasonable. The quote itself is accurate though. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 00:57, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I had another thought, on that score, or rather XKeyscore: slide 32, the last one in the 2008 presentation mentions a "future" capability. Exif tags in smartphone images typically include geolocation data. It may be more than simple facial recognition, they'd know WHERE the photograph was taken. Probably more of a concern now, that he's free to move about, than it was when he was stuck in the Terminal. This is OR, of course. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 07:43, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Russia update?

"Fugitive US intelligence leaker Edward Snowden has applied for temporary asylum in Russia, officials say."

"The Federal Migration Service confirmed he had completed the relevant paperwork at Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport, where he has been for the past three weeks."

— http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23328074

Sca (talk) 14:30, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

From the information in that article, it appears that fact should be in the article, that he has now formally applied for asylum in Russia, and that they might grant it or they might give him refugee status instead. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:35, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

"Edward Snowden today has filed for a temporary protection visa with Russia's ministry of immigration. #snowen #nsa #prism"

Unclear whether this is a separate deal from temporary asylum.

https://twitter.com/wikileaks

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 17:51, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

I think three sources is sufficient to update, with attribution. First mention of the asylum filing should go after the sentence On June 14, 2013, U.S. federal prosecutors charged Snowden with espionage and theft of government property, and before the "Contents" box, with some — but not too much — detail farther down. It would be good to quote lawyer Anatoly Kucherena telling Interfax that Snowden says he "will observe" Putin's gag order-condition for asylum.

I leave it to those more computer-savvy to do the work. Sca (talk) 18:05, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

This CNN editorial[1] should be required reading for anyone who thinks Russia and China are somehow better places for political dissenters to be than in the USA. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:12, 19 July 2013 (UTC)

How about for Wikipedia editors? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:38, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, specifically the ones on this page. Or would you rather not know? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:42, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that [2]is a subject to consider. Basically, it's about individuals who attended opposition matters before being denounced. All the cases are open to observe (like ) and show accused's guilt. The article doesn't mention of sentenced officials. It doesn't mention other opposition activists. Unfortunately, nobody gives about it. UberDrey (talk) 04:02, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

There is a quote in that violates wiki regulations. Line "like an unwanted Christmas gift" have never been said by V. Putin, and there is none of such in the reference link: . The actual reference quote goes like this: "Mr. Snowden really did arrive to Moscow. It was a complete surprise for us. He arrived as a transit passenger. He does not need visa, nor other papers, and as a transit passenger he can buy a ticket and go wherever he wants... And he as a transit passenger persists in transit zone at the present time." I suggest the line to be changed for something I specified as the actual quote above, or to be removed.UberDrey (talk) 04:42, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Protests in Germany.

The rally held at Dagger Complex, near Griesheim.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/protest-rally-suspected-german-nsa-site-19723354

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 03:09, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

And this relates to improving the article how? TippyGoomba (talk) 03:13, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Describes social impact of revelations. Suggested for including in the 2013_mass_surveillance_scandal related article. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 03:46, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

A broader protest in 30-40 cities in Germany. (depending on which source you read). A fun detail in some of the articles, some of the protesters were, in fact wearing tin foil hats. Suggested verbiage "a series of protests in Germany"

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 19:21, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

References

Why is this here? (role of KGB/FSB)

In the article under the sub title 'Moscow', this appears. ' The Russian broadsheet daily Kommersant reported on the same day that Snowden was being awaited by a limousine known to belong to the Soviet KGB's successor agency,[74][75] the FSB,[76]'

This is better. ' The Russian broadsheet daily Kommersant reported on the same day that Snowden was being awaited by a limousine known to belong to the the FSB,[76]'

Mention of the KGB is irrelevant. The KGB was dismantled and ceased to exist from November 1991. 22 odd years ago. Anyone clicking on the FSB blue link will work it out whats what if they dont know. Is the KGB's mention supposed to add a sinister tone? What exactly? Blade-of-the-South (talk) 10:26, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Read this editorial for some perspective on the situation.[3] Also, I note that Snowden has virtually disappeared from coverage. That alone could have sinister overtones. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm baffled as to why one might think any mention of the KGB is appropriate, and the source cited by Bugs doesn't help. Wikipedia doesn't hide the ball. If there's something "sinister" that meets our inclusion standards (neutral, notable, supported by reliable sources, etc.) then it should be stated explicitly. If it doesn't meet our standards then it should be omitted. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 18:23, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Maybe to help educate the naive users who think that the mindset of the KGB disappeared just because it was reorganized and given a new name - and as the article notes, Putin is a KGB guy himself. Unless you want this article to pretend that Russia supports human rights despite its behavior toward human rights activists. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:35, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

What is the mindset of the KGB? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:15, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The same as it always was. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:18, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Please explain without the veiled references. Most of us aren't as versed in Russian history as you. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:22, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

The real point is this: Whether the KGB needs a direct reference is questionable. But we have to be careful not to have the article treat Russian authorities as just a bunch of good ol' boys who would never arrest someone for political reasons. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:18, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I grow ever more weary of BB's warnings. I wish he'd keep his POV to himself. Gandydancer (talk) 19:31, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I grow ever more weary of all the hero-worship here. I wish the hero-worshippers'd keep their POV to themselves. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:04, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Wow bugs are you reading what you write. C'mon ! It’s so POV. This is an encyclopaedia. All this non neutral KGB justification flummery is just so not Wikipedia. Im going to change it based on concensus. 3 to 1.Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:25, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm not justifying mentioning it. I'm just questioning the reasoning for removing it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:34, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Bugs someone else thinks you are, its been changed by them already.Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:36, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Far be it from Wikipedia to remind the viewing public of what's going on. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:40, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

Snowden is getting close to falling off the CNN front page. If the claims in this article are factual,[4] Snowden didn't compromise us as much as he might have thought he did. But we'll see. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:46, 22 July 2013 (UTC)

It's an interesting article, but not an indication of fading from the headlines. CNN has been focusing more on Snowden as a person, rather than the information he revealed. If he does make it from the Airport for Moscow proper on Wednesday, as his lawyer indicates may happen, I feel CNN et al will have an article. I prefer to wait and see what happens with regards to his movements rather than speculating. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 00:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it's an evolving story, and he'll be back in the headlines if something happens ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:26, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Snowden's lawyer happens to do public relations for the FSB (that would be the straight-forward interpretation of "[Anatoly Kucherena] also sits on the 'public council' of the Federal Security Service (FSB), which... [a]ccording to its website... works to "develop a relationship" between the security service and the public. Its fifteen members have to be approved by the head of the FSB," no?) Kucherena, by the way, is quoted here saying in Russian that there ought to be legislation that punishes the creators of software that allows access to banned websites. Another person invited to meet Snowden was Olga Kostina, who has also done PR for the FSB (take a look at The New Nobility: The Restoration of Russia's Security State and the Enduring Legacy of the KGB and you'll find "[Kostina] explained that the FSB had created an 'unofficial' press service to which journalists could turn more freely than to the agency’s official public communications center, and she was hired to organize this work... The following week Kostina invited [me, Andrei Soldatov] to join the 'pool' of journalists briefed by the FSB."--Brian Dell (talk) 09:01, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Brian Dell Whats your point please? In relation to this thread. I cant see it. The FSB blue link in the article has enough info, history and agency succession stuff to satisfy any spy agency tragics, surely. A Snowden article is not the place for it. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 09:52, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

It's important to not pretend in this article that the Russian agencies are benign. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm taking issue with the claim in this thread that "any mention" of the KGB/FSB would not be "appropriate". Agence France-Presse has noted Kucherena's connections to Russian intelligence in a story about Snowden and it would accordingly be appropriate for Wikipedia to likewise do so.--Brian Dell (talk) 10:14, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

Brian Dell Re '"any mention" of the KGB/FSB would not be "appropriate"'. Where was this claim made? Blade-of-the-South (talk) 21:05, 23 July 2013 (UTC)

"baffled as to why one might think any mention of the KGB is appropriate" must mean that EITHER the speaker thinks it isn't possible for such a mention to be "appropriate" OR the speaker allows that it is possible but does not believe himself capable of comprehending why. I think it is appropriate to assume that the speaker interjected in order to state something beyond simply announcing an inability to comprehend. The article talks about "Snowden's WikiLeaks handler" yet should remain silent about his "goonish Russian minders" (a bit of old school Soviet flavour that Moscow-based reporter Simon Shuster observed)? My issue with "If there's something 'sinister'... then it should be stated explicitly" is that it amounts to "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" because the man behind the curtain is by definition not explicit. Take this "report" as an example of Snowden source that should not be naively taken at face value: "Anatoly Kucherena... said no [U.S.] embassy staff had expressed concern over Snowden's conditions during his month-long confinement in the transit zone of Moscow's Sheremetyevo airport. ... Alexander Brod, head of the Moscow Human Rights Bureau, told Xinhua Kucherena's position on Snowden was 'noble.'" 1) Kucherena is a spin doctor for the FSB, 2) Alexander Brod has played advocate for the Kremlin, excusing electoral irregularities and dismissing Moscow's abuse of Georgians' human rights, saying "the first obligation of a human rights activist is to Russian citizens, not Americans or Georgians," 3) Xinhua is controlled by the Communist Party of China. The truth is that while Kucherena says the U.S. embassy is failing to provide assistance to its citizen abroad, he has admitted that the U.S. embassy has requested access to Snowden (access that has presumably been denied). When it comes to Snowden there are legions of "news stories" like this, which spin l'affaire Snowden as an example of the U.S. violating human rights, such that Wikipedians need to remind themselves of the fact that independent investigative reporters have had no contact with Snowden at all (Glenn Greenwald has an agenda that doesn't support pursuing the possibility that Snowden is not an noble-minded human rights activist and Snowden, for all his avowed enthusiasm for rendering things public, has never shown his face in any public area since he left the US).--Brian Dell (talk) 14:32, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Hold on you Brian Dell first wrote this. I'm taking issue with the claim in this thread that "any mention" of the KGB/FSB would not be "appropriate".

Then I said this. Re '"any mention" of the KGB/FSB would not be "appropriate"'. Where was this claim made?

Then you replied with this as justification that Dr. Fleischman wrote "baffled as to why one might think any mention of the KGB is appropriate".

OK slow down. Can you see the problem? No? No one said any mention of the FSB would not be "appropriate". Its about dragging in an old spy agency from 22 odd years ago that would not be "appropriate". If you are a spy tragic go to another Wikipedia page. The KGB mention of this thread has already gone from the article Brian Dell. Case closed. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 22:50, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

• • The mention appears appropriate mainly because "KGB" is a very well-known brand whereas "FSB" to most people outside Russia means pretty much nothing and to many in the UK, it probably means just the Federation of Small Businesses. Apropos the blue link, some making rash edits in the article are lazy enough to follow that link and discover that the FSB is not in any way and form part of the Interior Ministry.Axxxion (talk) 22:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Wikipedia articles can get bulky and off topic. Bulking out an article with off topic padding because maybe the earlier 22 defunct brand was better known to some people (can you reference that please?) or maybe people wont click on the FSB link, is just silly. The KGB is already mentioned once, thats enough. The line I took issue with. Its gone already. Case closed Blade-of-the-South (talk) 23:20, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with Blade. The FSB and the KGB are not the same thing. If they were they'd have the same Wikipedia article. They don't. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:37, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

So Blade-of-the-South believes the Guardian is "just silly" because the Guardian has printed the following: "Kucherena is a member of the Public Council of the Federal Security Service, the successor to the KGB, which lends fuel to speculations that Snowden's stay is being handled by Russia's intelligence services." I suggest opening your "baffled" mind, Doctor, to the possibility that this is simply ensuring that readers are duly informed.--Brian Dell (talk) 07:44, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

So much naivete. If anyone thinks the KGB (rebranded as the FSB) are harmless bugle boys, you are sadly mistaken. Brian Dellis bravely raising some very valid points against withering criticism. If you believe the FSB is also a human rights organization, then you probably also leave your keys in your unlocked car overnight too in case the fire department might need to move it out of the way. Veriss (talk) 08:48, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

The KGB ended its reign when the Soviet Union collapsed, at this time Snowden's lawyer, now in his 50s, was barely Snowden's age. The FSB page mentions that is the successor to the KGB in the first sentence. Anyone clicking on the link would see that. It has nothing to do with the record of the agency. It's just a recognition of the two decades between then and now. The same reason we don't mention the OSS any more. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 09:09, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

I cant wait for this drivel to be archived. (sighs) In the meantime lets bulk the article right out with off topic POV padding. Did you know the NSA had a predecessor? The predecessor of the National Security Agency was the Armed Forces Security Agency (AFSA), created on May 20, 1949. Wow this must go in!!!! And some dirt on those dirty rats in the KGB too...Grrr ...this cuts to the core of what it means to be American. Your either for us or against us. Lets put the correct slant on this Snowden. Wink wink. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 09:12, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Methinks, tha NSA background is quite educating: pretty much like MI6, it stems from military intelligence-gathering which originallly was only activated during war time. The FSB background is radically different: it is all about divide-and-rule-and-thereby-control of society (often annihiliting a good deal thereof); and thus Russia's security services are solely aimed at protecting those (or just the one) in power and suppressing all and everyone around. The difference is not in degree and extent of surveillence -- it is about absolutely different purpose and mission hailing back to oprichnina.Axxxion (talk) 21:38, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Lol someones gunna close this thread soon, its so off track. BTW Axxxion when you wrote 'it is all about divide-and-rule-and-thereby-control of society....etc...' I thought you meant the USA re NSA / Patriot act / Attacks on the constitution / Obama etc. Seriously. Blade-of-the-South / (talk) 23:42, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree the discussion is pointless. But I cannot see any sense in "you meant the USA re NSA / Patriot act": how many millions of American citizens have been imprisoned and murdered by the NSA (or the CIA, for that matter) in Alaska (the closest analogue to Siberia)? How many thousands clapped in mental institutions for dissenting political views? How many have been ousted abroad because their political activity was harmful to the survival of the incumbent in the White House? The comparison is utterly ridiculous. But again, the main question to be asked lies elsewhere: what is the ultimate purpose of this "controlling" activity. I would agree with anyone who will say it is in fact pretty hard to tell vis-a-vis the US, but it is beyond any doubt that the US security services are not doing what they are doing just to prolong indefinitely the reign of one person allowing him to pilfer the national wealth and murder his personal foes with impunity. The US is ruled by the establishment, ie several thousand people (at the very least); Russia has traditionally been ruled by one person, or a clique of but a few (like now) and the role of oprichnina, which are recruited from lower strata of society, is exactly to control and suppress the people who in any normal society constitute the establishment (intellectuals, politically active people, parties, religious and public figures, etc).Axxxion (talk) 18:52, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Axxxion, look I understand your point, I used to be there. In my comment above I was being facetious a little, but only up to a point. Its true the USSR was hard core. Since that time there have been two curves on the, call it the Liberty index. Russia's is heading up, USA's down, very fast. Americans like Russians are mostly good, they want good. But democracies Achilles heel is the ease the Subversion of its governing bodies can be achieved by a determined powerful elite bent on control. The USA is a rich prize. Many people cant see this has happened and is happening even more right now in the USA. I dont know if decent people will fight back hard enough to change the course of the USA, but I hope they do. There are many encouraging signs it will happen, like the Amash amendment attempt. This is the reason why Snowden scares the elite. Knowledge is power. Blade-of-the-South (talk) 21:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Wow, talk about POV and "padding," Blade has just become an apologist for Russia (and by extension of the original point of this thread, the KGB/FSB). Are you sure you don't work for them? I agree with Bugs, FSB should be stated as successor agency of KGB, since most people recognize KGB, and there is no substantive difference between the two. What's in a name? A lot. Blade, your analogy to the OSS fails because the OSS is no longer well known; the situation is the reverse with FSB, as it is not well known as the clone of the KGB. Therefore it merits mention that it is the KGB successor. That simple phrase is not "padding." Also, it was wrong to have it removed, because anyone can see by this thread that there was no consensus.

To ignore the influence of the FSB re Snowden and what that means (or rather, doesn't mean) to most people except the Russians and their sphere of influence, is pretense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikione29 (talk • contribs) 07:05, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

The Germans have it right. (See FSB & FBI, below.) "The Russian secret service FSB...." See how easy that is? Wikione29 (talk) 07:10, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Snowden has been given documents allowing him to leave the transit zone

Has just been reported on BBC. Count Iblis (talk) 11:52, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Story's changed. [5] --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 16:14, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Verifiability

"All material in Wikipedia mainspace, including everything in articles, lists and captions, must be verifiable. All quotations, and any material whose verifiability has been challenged or is likely to be challenged, must include an inline citation that directly supports the material. Any material that needs a source but does not have one may be removed. Please remove unsourced contentious material about living people immediately." Wikipedia verifiability policy.

I find it disturbing that statements remain in this article as fact when they were only things that Edward Snowden said; and the content of his statements are also not correctly cited.

1. In "Childhodd, Family and Education," FeralOink pointed out on July 8 that a correct statement about Snowden's education is:

"In fact, the quote as cited should be: 'A spokesperson for the university [of Liverpool] said that in 2011 Snowden registered for an online master's degree program in computer security and that "he is not active in his studies and has not completed the programme."'

This is because, as FeralOink pointed out, "As for the Master's degree, I realize that a number of sources say the following:

"'In addition, Snowden did work towards a Master's Degree at the University of Liverpool, taking an online Computer Security class in 2011. Kate Mizen, head of public relations for the University of Liverpool, said he studied there, but "he is not active in his studies and has not completed the program."" He took one online computer security class in 2011 at the University of Liverpool, which he didn't necessarily complete (after being employed by the CIA et al. as an information technology expert for four, five (?) years prior). That hardly counts as doing work toward a Master's degree. It is misleading to state that he studied for a Master's degree, while omitting the fact that he never obtained a Bachelor's degree." [Emphasis added.]

2. In "Career," it is stated about Snowden's Army experience, "However, he was discharged four months later on September 28 after having broken both of his legs in a training accident.[25]" That cited source says nothing about Snowden breaking both legs in a training accident; that is only Snowden's claim to the Guardian. The cited source only confirms his enlistment, discharge, and the fact that he did not complete training and received no awards. The verifiable statement should be: "However, he was discharged four months later on September 28 without completing training or receiving any awards."

3. In "Career," it is stated that Snowden spent time in Japan working for Dell. "The Guardian reported that Snowden left the agency in 2009 for a private contractor inside an NSA facility on a US military base in Japan[10] later identified as Dell,[32] which had substantial classified contracts.[32] Snowden remained on the Dell payroll until early 2013.[32]" The problem with this statement is that it is all what Snowden reportedly said in a resume which hasn't even been seen by news sources.[32] In fact, Dell has refused to verify Snowden's employment there. "Edward Snowden, NSA Whistleblower, Says He Acted Out Of Conscience To Protect 'Basic Liberties'" The statement in Wikipedia should be changed to "According to sources who claim to have seen Snowden's resume, he worked for Dell in Japan from 2009 until early 2013. Dell has refused to verify Snowden's employment there." This is consistent with both sources.

I realize that the editors have moved on to later events, but that should not leave the earlier information about Snowden uncorrected. It is among the first information the reader encounters, and is relevant to Snowden's credibility. Credibility is a leaker's certificate of authenticity. The reader should receive balanced information, not information stated as fact that has not been verified, or is misstated or misleading. The reader may make up his/her own mind about Snowden's credibility.Leslynjd (talk) 18:07, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I largely agree that these are problems but I disagree with Leslynjd's proposed solutions to #2 and #3. If the problem is lack of attribution then the solution is to add attribution. The sources don't show any dispute over Snowden's assertions so it would be inappropriate to imply one. Thus, the appropriate fix for #2 is: "However, he has said he was discharged four months later on September 28 after having broken both of his legs in a training accident.[25]" The appropriate fix for #3 is: "Snowden left the agency in 2009 for a private contractor inside an NSA facility on a US military base in Japan[10] later identified by Snowden as Dell, which had substantial classified contracts. Snowden has said he remained on the Dell payroll until early 2013.[32]" --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:47, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

This is a biography of a living person so every claim, potentially positive or negative, needs to be directly cited and it is the burden of anyone making such assertions to prove them. Thank you for the time you spent researching these inconsistencies Leslynjd. Unless there is substantial discussion disputing it, I will make the changes you suggest soon. Veriss (talk) 09:02, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

And what of my proposals? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:38, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

The problem isn't lack of attribution, it is lack of proof of the assertions about a living person.

And BTW, since when did Snowden's girlfriend become a "performance artist?" LOLOL. Her claim is that she is a "pole-dancing superhero" who was a "beginner" at acrobatics. This appears backed up by credible evidence: , Leslynjd (talk) 21:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

At Wikipedia we don't require "proof" of anything, just verifiability via reliable sources. Per WP:RS, biased or non-neutral sources (such as Snowden's own claims) are citable as long as they're properly attributed. So, this really is about attribution.

As for the "performance artist" moniker, that language is used by the cited Guardian article, and as far I can tell no reliable source is saying that she's not a performance artist. Moreover according to our own article on the subject, pole dancing is a form of performance art. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 21:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Why not use her own description of herself, instead of an interpretation? She's the primary source. Since when is a secondary source interpretation better than the primary source? Are we slanting? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikione29 (talk • contribs) 06:38, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Since WP:PSTS was written. Secondary sources are nearly always preferred. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:48, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Morales plane incident

• I have serious doubts that this lengthy paragraph meets the relevancy standards. This is in fact about Morales, not Snowden.Axxxion (talk) 23:10, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

I wholeheartedly agree. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 23:50, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

There are two things that make the Incident relevant to Snowden. 1) The plane was diverted because of false suspicions that Snowden was aboard the plane. 2) Anger generated by this in Latin America ranks high among the reasons for Snowden being granted asylum in three Latin American countries shortly thereafter. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 01:32, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

This isn't to say that the paragraph couldn't have some of the fat trimmed off. But the incident itself is still important to Snowden. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 02:18, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Tangential IMO. Just because there's a connection doesn't mean there's a notable connection. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:49, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

When a head of state's plane is "diverted" over suspicion of harboring a fugitive, it is VERY notable for said fugitive. It's not as if it were a mere commercial jet, or even a private charter. This is a plane belonging to the state of Bolivia, actively engaged in transporting the Head of State on official business. The incident itself is extremely notable. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 08:33, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

It's much simpler: It just means for Snowden that: "You can't leave the country" (They obviously knew that Snowden wasn't flying...)94.70.98.203 (talk) 09:13, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

We can work on who knew what when later. One of the iterations had that the US ambassador had "very firm" information that Snowden was aboard. Whether "they" believe this information to be true is speculation. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 09:27, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

It seems like a red herring to me. They thought he was on the plane; they were wrong; he's still in Moscow. There's lots of spycraft and political intrigue going on right now, and not all of it is worthy of mention. We're an encyclopedia, not a news aggregator. Please consider WP:10YT. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 06:45, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

That incident will stand the test of time, it is akin to the aftermath of the Achille_Lauro_hijacking in terms of long term notability. Worthy of a few sentences. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 18:57, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Certainly relevant to Snowden, and is so extremely unprecedented, easily merits mention. --HectorMoffet (talk) 11:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I agree with 71. I think that you have cut this section back way too much. Gandydancer (talk) 23:25, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

At the time, it was spoken of as a "major international event". The incident has everything to do with Snowden and the efforts of the US government to retrieve him. petrarchan47tc 09:33, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

It's not all that difficult to revive one paragraph from the revision history, if there is a consensus to do so. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 18:30, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

• Restore one paragraph. It is very relevant to the Snowden case, and instrumental in the decisions to be granted asylee status in Latin America --71.20.55.6 (talk) 18:36, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Strongly agree with restore arguments; The incident is entirely related (at least publicly, one could speculate that Morales' contributions at the conference of gas-exporting countries could be related to US interests, but such motivations would be speculative and secret, unless someone were to leak documents revealing something other than the public statements... ) to Snowden and the suspicions of his presence. Without his involvement there would be no incident, hence notable and entirely relevant to Snowden. ~ Joga Luce(t)(c) 19:12, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

Agree with restore. Perhaps a subheading is again appropriate. petrarchan47tc 17:42, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

It appears that most editors believe that this incident requires better coverage. I have added some of the previous copy. I would prefer that it have a separate heading, but I added it under the existing one. Thoughts? Gandydancer (talk) 19:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

The incident really needs a subsection title. It was a major event. Here is Wikileaks' lawyer on the matter: "MICHAEL RATNER: You know, first it’s the bully in the schoolyard, the big imperial country deciding whatever it wants, when it wants, and using the big stick when it wants. But it’s also illegal. Obviously it was illegal to force a presidential plane with immunity and the president to go down, to land. And secondly, it’s illegal to interfere with someone’s right to get asylum. That’s 100 percent. If Snowden had been on that plane, they couldn’t interfere with his right to apply for asylum."source. petrarchan47tc 19:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I'm open to portions of the Morales incident being restored as long as it focuses exclusively on the Snowden aspects, per WP:RELART. As currently written this section has too much content about, for example, U.S.-Bolivia relations that have very little to do with Snowden's quest for asylum. On the other hand the Ratner quote provided by Petrarchan47 above is much more relevant and deserves inclusion. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:37, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Another source to add needed context: (from the Guardian) ..."there must be a real concern, particularly after Nato allies collaborated in forcing down the Bolivian president's jet, that the US will intercept any plane believed to be carrying Snowden to asylum, either because he is tantamount to a terrorist (Vice-President Biden has described Julian Assange as a "hi-tech terrorist") or simply because they want to put him on trial as a spy." petrarchan47tc 22:08, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Remember that that's an opinion piece and requires attribution to Geoffrey Robertson. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 22:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm attempting to gather a variety of sources to help eventually shed light on the implications of this incident. Essentially, this context should be offered to the reader: this was an unlawful act by the US; Snowden is legally protected in his asylum seeking attempts; the Morales incident followed by mere days Obama's claim that he would not "be scrambling jets" to retrieve Snowden, et cetera. petrarchan47tc 22:36, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I think there might be enough on that incident and its aftermath that you could make a main article, from which you could transclude sections into the Snowden and Morales bios. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 22:00, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I imagine there will be multiple spin-off articles from this one, I'm amazed we haven't need to split anything off already (or have we?). I concur the Morales incident warrants its own piece. The entire search-for-asylum story will probably need to be split off one day, and the reactions as well... petrarchan47tc 00:12, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

There are at least three articles with a section dedicated to it, this one, Bolivia–United States relations and Evo Morales, in the latter case it's entitled July 2013 flight diversion. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 01:23, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Lindsey Graham Senate Bill

Allows sanctions against countries that harbor Snowden.

http://www.hngn.com/articles/8604/20130725/senate-bill-allow-sanctions-against-countries-offering-snowden-asylum.htm

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/BILLS-113sres198is/pdf/BILLS-113sres198is.pdf

Moscow - Havana flight

Snowden watch: Today’s Moscow-Havana flight taking a very odd detour that avoids the U.S. 94.70.98.203 (talk) 09:02, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

That was last week, Snowden wasn't on that flight. Plane diverted to storms on the entire eastern seaboard. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 09:15, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

If I were Snowden I would go to Vladivostok and board a cargo ship to Guayaquil. Count Iblis (talk) 13:00, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

FBI & FSB

A spokesman for Putin, Dmitri Peskov, says Russian secret service FSB has begun negotiating with U.S. domestic secret police FBI over Snowden's fate. (In German.)

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/nsa-affaere-russischer-geheimdienst-verhandelt-mit-fbi-ueber-snowden-a-913342.html

Sca (talk) 13:49, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Here's an English source on the same thing: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-23468459

Sca (talk) 18:12, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

BBC article links to letter from Eric Holder to his Russian counterpart. The letter gives assurances that: Mr Snowden will not be eligible for the death penalty, will not be tortured, would have access to council (either appointed by the Court, or one of his own choosing, and under his pay), a right to a public jury trial -- with a conviction standard of beyond a reasonable doubt, and a right to appeal.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/tvnews/dateline%20nbc/obama.pdf

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 18:33, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Lon Snowden and Lawyer Bruce Fein speak to Today

Defends son's decisions. Describes contact with son as indirect (through intermediary) and limited. Grateful for assistance of Wikikeaks, and others. Fein also wrote a letter to Obama.

http://www.today.com/news/edward-snowdens-dad-story-far-done-6C10760642

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/tvnews/dateline%20nbc/obama.pdf

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 18:16, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Re-semi-protect?

Quite a rash of questionable edits....

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Edward_Snowden&diff=565935793&oldid=565898077

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 20:57, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Two upcoming hearings to watch

A Senate hearing featuring Gen Alexander and others.

A House hearing featuring critics of the NSA, including Greenwald, the ACLU and the Cato institute.

Both on July 31, both can be expected to contain new information about Snowden, the NSA and various aspects for the constellation of related articles.

Just a heads up for developments to watch for.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jul/26/nsa-surveillance-critics-testify-congress

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 23:36, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Greewald's twitter feed: The WH now scheduled a meeting between Obama & House Dems on Wed morning when NSA hearing was supposed to be. It's now being re-scheduled. I'm trying to find out more details. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 03:49, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

More details: the House meeting is cancelled for now, an attempt is being made to reschedule before recess.

http://www.politico.com/blogs/media/2013/07/greenwald-nsa-surveillance-hearing-cancelled-169526.html

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 22:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Change of Venue for the Senate meeting, but it's still on.

http://www.judiciary.senate.gov/hearings/hearing.cfm?id=0d93f03188977d0d41065d3fa041decd

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 23:55, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

More recent sources on Snowden

• Gidda, Mirren. "Edward Snowden and the NSA files – timeline." The Guardian. Thursday 25 July 2013.
• Gabbat, Adam. "US will not seek death penalty for Edward Snowden, Holder tells Russia." The Guardian. Friday 26 July 2013.

WhisperToMe (talk) 07:40, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

New Story hinted at by Greenwald

As of the time of this post, nothing new on The Guardian but Greenwald spoke to Stephanopoulous. He isn't saying how precisely he plans to break the full story, and what supporting documents he plans to publish. His upcoming testimony before the House, on Wednesday, isn't to be missed, if he doesn't break the full story before then.

“The NSA has trillions of telephone calls and emails in their databases that they’ve collected over the last several years,” Greenwald told ABC News’ George Stephanopoulos. “And what these programs are, are very simple screens, like the ones that supermarket clerks or shipping and receiving clerks use, where all an analyst has to do is enter an email address or an IP address, and it does two things. It searches that database and lets them listen to the calls or read the emails of everything that the NSA has stored, or look at the browsing histories or Google search terms that you’ve entered, and it also alerts them to any further activity that people connected to that email address or that IP address do in the future.”

He opines that Snowden is actually glad that no changes have occurred in his personal situation in Russia, because it shifts the focus where he wants it -- on the revelations themselves.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/2013/07/glenn-greenwald-low-level-nsa-analysts-have-powerful-and-invasive-search-tool/

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 18:26, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

It might be this one: XKeyscore: NSA tool collects 'nearly everything a user does on the internet'. petrarchan47tc 22:11, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Anatoly Kucherena - the lawyer

Some details: working pro bono on Snowden's case, working to craft a legal process that avoids Putin's involvement altogether. He a high profile lawyer, well before Snowden.

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/edward-snowden-s-lawyer-comes-with-high-profile-and-ties-to-kremlin-398140

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 03:23, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

As has been mentioned before, he's connected KGB/FSB. I think that's relevant. He's political, not a civil rights attorney; nor does he have the legal freedom to work in Snowden's interest. It's a conflict of interest.He works for the Russian government--it's misleading to describe him as Snowden's attorney. No matter how much he's smiling.Wikione29 (talk) 06:26, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Ties to the Kremlin are true, and might be relevant, however, you need to have a source explaining why precisely he's somehow not legally able to represent Mr Snowden. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 07:11, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Reactions of the Whistleblower Community

A video entitled "Whistleblowers, Journalists, and the New War Within" by the Government Accountability Project has just been uploaded to their official YouTube channel. This was a meeting held July 25, 2013. Featuring the following, Tom Drake, Bill Binney, J Kirk Wiebe, Jesselyn Radack, Babak Pasdar, Julian Sanchez and Amie Stepanovich. Moderated by David Sirota and James Risen.

I would characterize their support of Snowden to be universal (Snowden reactions in the Introduction, and the 1 hr mark of first video, and peppered throughout). This video also provides insight into the experiences of whistleblowers generally. Tom Drake speaks especially vehemently on the "narcissist" allegation frequently leveled against himself, Snowden and others.

It also provides excellent insight into the constellation of broader issues( their views on Surveillance and the legality thereof, treatment of whistleblowers, journalism). It could be a source for many related articles: Bradley Manning, and also Thinthread, Stellar Wind, Trailblazer, possibly a source for biography articles on Wiebe and Pasdar (which don't yet exist).

https://www.youtube.com/user/GovAcctProjTV

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY-75_j0BNw&list=UUviOLLdWe7AlouLDFErQYag

A partially overlapping, but independently shot "highlights" video of this conference also exists.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YOoNKydC8iY

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 23:36, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Lon Snowden and Bruce Fein

These men have emerged as players in the saga. The elder Snowden has become an advocate for his son, and has given repeated interviews. Anderson Cooper 360, Today, Fox News, Washington Times, among others. The lawyer, Mr Fein is usually seated next to the elder Snowden.

One thing I noted is the transition between his first interview, in which he expresses faith in the justice system, and encouraged Edward to return to face justice, and the latest in which he expresses "absolutely no faith" in Eric Holder.

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 06:56, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

• The Guardian noted it too in the article I cited regarding Lon Snowden believing that his son should stay in Russia. In that regard, it's not OR to say his public stance changed if you cite the article. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:07, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Edward Snowden's lawyer is working on a visa to allow Lon Snowden to visit Russia.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/edward-snowden-airport-reading

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 19:05, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

XKeyscore - LARGE disclosure from the guardian

Article and many images.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/jul/31/nsa-top-secret-program-online-data

Presentation from 2008:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/interactive/2013/jul/31/nsa-xkeyscore-program-full-presentation

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 17:55, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Someone needs to upload the slides. WhisperToMe (talk) 20:51, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I don't have permission as an IP user... Dragging my feet on getting a name. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 21:43, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if it's possible to register a Commons account (maybe under a different computer), but only use the Commons under that name and use an IP address when contributing on Wikipedia WhisperToMe (talk) 21:53, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Probably. But my computers all have the same public IP address. It's quite a large disclosure: A 32 page slideshow, and an additional 12 screenshots. It oought to be enough information to expand the article beyond the stub class. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 22:24, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Looks like the slideshow has already been uploaded. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 22:49, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Application

Here is a scan of Snowden’s application for the temporary asylum in the Russian Federation. --Psychiatrick (talk) 13:34, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Utterly useless as a source. Unpublished and completely unverifiable. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Published (here) and completely verifiable. --Psychiatrick (talk) 13:45, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

If it was published there, why are you linking to an unverifiable (and possibly copyright-breaching) upload? AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

There seems to be some circular sourcing going on between RT and the Daily Mail. RTR TV aired video of the letter, the Mail got a graphologist to write some random nonsense on it (two weeks ago), [6] and now RT are reporting what the Mail published. AndyTheGrump (talk) 13:59, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

MailOnline published Snowden’s application of low quality to support expert Linda Lauren’s conclusion—based on handwriting analysis of Snowden’s application—that Snowden was tired, 'drained' paranoid and low on confidence and options and had a 'lack of understanding of the big picture and his role in it.' I provided Snowden’s application of high quality.--Psychiatrick (talk) 15:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

He has, however left the airport. Handwriting analysis, to determine personality, if that's what you're after is a pseudoscience

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/edward-snowden-leaves-moscow-airport-live

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 17:46, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Payments of £100 million from NSA to GCHQ

One direct from Snowden's cache. The Guardian's Hopkins and Borger detail "off the books" payments from NSA to GCHQ. The article suggests that the UK may be spying on American citizens at the NSA's behest, in order to circumvent US law. Some snippets:

In one revealing document from 2010, GCHQ acknowledged that the US had "raised a number of issues with regards to meeting NSA's minimum expectations". It said GCHQ "still remains short of the full NSA ask".

Ministers have denied that GCHQ does the NSA's "dirty work", but in the documents GCHQ describes Britain's surveillance laws and regulatory regime as a "selling point" for the Americans.

Some GCHQ staff working on one sensitive programme expressed concern about "the morality and ethics of their operational work, particularly given the level of deception involved"

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2013/aug/01/nsa-paid-gchq-spying-edward-snowden — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.20.55.6 (talk) 18:26, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Whistleblower community redux

Why was this renamed? [7] The previous discussion here Talk:Edward Snowden/Archive 2#"Whistleblower community" was IMO leaning against the name. No evidence for ever provided for "whistleblower community" being a way the people described identifed as or are identified as. The only argument in favour was based on the claim such a community could exist which is besides the point. The question was not whether such a community could exist nor whether the term could be used under some definitions, but whether the term is actually used for which no evidence was ever provided. Nor was there any ever suggest the people had to have met or had to live together to be considered a community (as that's just strange, many communities are made up of people who may not live that close together and have never met). In other words, the only argument in favour was flawed, I noticed this at the time but did not bother to reply because there was never any suggestion to rename the section back to whistleblower community until the actual rename. Since the I presume all of the people mentioned are still alive based on the recentness of it, there's also a BLP issue here. Nearly everyone listed is a whistleblower or widely described as such, so it's difficult to see the, objecting to being listed under such a title, but they may not necessarily agree with being part of this "whistleblower community" (for which we have no evidence so far they either self identify as or are widely described by RS as being part of) which the person who argued for in the original discussion themselves said implies "the condition of having certain attitudes and interests in common." The only real problem with the alternative is Julian Assange. I agree there's a problem in that he's arguably not really a whistleblower, or at least primarily notable for aiding whistleblowers more than whistleblowing himself, although perhaps more because of lack of opportunity then anything else. That said, plenty of sources do call him a whistleblower and he's categorised as such in our article and it seems unlikely he would oppose the term. The alternative would be considering whether the section is the best section for him or finding some intermediate title, or proving the people listed actually belong in such a section. I would add that my searches don't find much evidence the term is even used much in RS, instead primarily press releases, blogs, partisian sources, opinion columns etc. Compare say to "intelligence community". And yes this may be a fairly long discussion for a title. But last time I thought the issue had been resolved or at least would not be changed back without further discussion only to find it was, based on talk. Despite as stated above, my reading that the talk discussion was leaning against that title and there never being any actual suggestion to rename the title back even though one person had stated in the discussion (who was not me) that we seemed to be settling on something else. So I see no option but to try to be complete in my opposition lest we get a repeat. Nil Einne (talk) 18:49, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I renamed it because discussion had fizzled and no one had responded to my arguments. I don't think the term "whistleblower community" needs to be in common usage for it to be appropriate, but it is in fact in common usage. Here are some notable examples:

• National Whistleblower Center: [8]
• Brookings Institute: [9]
• Sen. Chuck Grassley: [10]
• Government Accountability Project (whistleblower.org): [11]
• Mother Jones: [12]

The fact that these examples aren't neutral news sources doesn't change the fact that the term comports with the dictionary definition of "community" and is in common usage. A Google search for "whistleblower community" (with quotes) reveals 8,690 hits.

As for your BLP argument, BLP is about harm to the subject. "Whistleblower" isn't a derogatory term, in fact quite the opposite, especially to these particular people. Moreover, per WP:BLPSOURCES, the question isn't whether the subjects would be offended by the material but whether the material is supported by reliable sources. The subjects of this subsection have all been described as "whistleblowers" or described as aligned with "whistleblowers" in numerous reliable sources. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:29, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

And here are some reliable sources referring to or describing the whistleblower "community":

• New York Times: [13]
• New York Times: [14]
• Nextgov: [15]

--Dr. Fleischman (talk) 19:40, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikileaks official statement Aug 1

http://wikileaks.org/Statement-on-Snowden-s-Successful.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.20.55.6 (talk) 19:37, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Article of interest

If true, this would appear to validate the Snowden's claims of suspicionless blanket domestic spying of web searches.

A woman in Brooklyn received a visit from Authorities after researching pressure cookers. Combined with her son's news searches on the Boston bombers, and her husband's searches for backpacks.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/aug/01/new-york-police-terrorism-pressure-cooker

--71.20.55.6 (talk) 19:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

This would seem to belong at XKeyscore. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 20:19, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

I can picture an analyst entering "soft" selectors in the system in an effort to prevent the last attack: backpack, pressure cooker, Tsarnaev. Though it's hard to confirm its use. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 20:33, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

An updated version of the above article has that it the fbi actually got a tipoff from an employer of the father. Which would be semi-good news.--71.20.55.6 (talk) 15:11, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Not the FBI: Suffolk County police. The full police statement appears here. – Herzen (talk) 18:15, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Nobel peace prize nomination

There are literally tens of thousands of people who can nominate anyone for the peace prize. A nomination by one professor is hardly notable. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 04:45, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Politico and a few other sites reported on it, but not much coverage exists so you might be right. petrarchan47tc 05:31, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

This issue was discussed here and the consensus was that the nomination is not sufficiently notable for inclusion. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 05:33, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

That assessment makes sense in light of the scant coverage. petrarchan47tc 00:22, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Morales plane incident II

Was there anywhere mentioned who was resposible for closing the air space? This can only be done from high to very high level of administration or an higher ranking military. One person must have issued the closing and it would be nice to know that. --Stone (talk) 09:26, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, according to Austrian media, it was the US Ambassador to Austria who made the claim. I re-added the source and statement to the article yesterday, hopefully it's still there. petrarchan47tc 00:09, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

It's still there. From the source: When the plane landed in Vienna to refuel, US Ambassador to Austria William Eacho phoned officials from the Austrian Foreign Ministry, the Austrian daily newspaper Die Presse reported. Eacho “claimed with great certainty that Edward Snowden was onboard” and referenced a “diplomatic note requesting Snowden’s extradition.

It might make sense to expand on that a bit. Also, we haven't mentioned whether it was a legal act to force a President's plane down. Missing from the section is any context in that regard. petrarchan47tc 00:17, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Wikileaks relationship w/ Snowden, and FSB

Business Insider / Michael Kelley Timeline source for FSB/Wikileaks relationships

This article gives a (probably hypothetical) timeline that states that Wikileaks.org and the FSB worked together to rescue Snowden from HK, and that Wikileaks.org has worked with the former Soviet sphere as its own intelligence agency, providing leaked information before it is publicly released. Further, it implies that Wikileak's Sarah Harrison is "riding Snowden's back" as it seems that she has kept close to him, and left the Moscow airport with him to his new asylum residence. Added to that, Snowden's lawyer (and current mouthpiece), Anatoly Kucherena, sits on am FSB (former KGB) board (source). Putin, of course, is former KGB and converted it to the FSB. Snowden's WP article states that he barely escaped both Chinese security and US CIA capture, which supports the idea that he got support from experienced-types.

I would prefer to believe that Wikileak's and Sarah Harrison's support for Snowden are genuine and not part of a Wikileaks strategy to leverage Snowden and the FSB to increase Wikileak's power in the World--though it would not shock me. There suggestions that Harrison and Julian Assange where emotionally close when she supported him during house arrest, and it makes sense that a similar relationship might have developed with Snowden in the tiny room of the airport's restricted-area micro hotel, and may continue in his asylum apartment. --John Bessa (talk) 00:05, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Is that a reliable source? I don't think so, but it might be. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 00:09, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I've never seen Business Insider used as a source on wiki. I think it's about like the Examiner, one step up from a personal blog - but I could be wrong. The RS noticeboard could be consulted for this, it's a pretty smooth process. petrarchan47tc 00:20, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Covert sources? Get serious, everything here is hypothetical, esp since we didn't know that Sarah (wiki first name thing) was compressing w/ Edward in the mirco hotel, and that they left together, which suggests she got a visa too. What I want to know is, will they decompress together, as Ed adjusts to his Rus FB-like job. It was suggested that Jennifer Robinson would have been more qualified to support Ed (and she is certainly pretty enough), but I think Sarah's athletic style makes her resilient, and Ed, of course, is a former soldier, and seems to retain some of the "sign up" naivete, that is joining a force to set the wrong things right. I heard a good number of ex-soldiers describe this at a gay vets conference. I think the article is unduly cynical, that it is written from the egotistical model of "World history," or the history of European wars and colonialism. TimeLife series are written this way. I think we would all rather think otherwise, that Ed, Julian, Sarah, and Jennifer are brave, well-meaning people coping in the private little "endgame" of our two egomaniacs: Putin and Obama. (I personally think Putin was on his way out already, and Obama severely mis-stepped this time.) --John Bessa (talk) 02:14, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Please do not use the talk page as a forum for discussing the topic. The talk page is for discussing how to improve the article. Veriss (talk) 02:36, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

What I would really like to know is when Ed hooked up w/ Wikileaks, because he didn't leak to them, he laaked to The Guardian's Glenn Greenwald. Did he contact Julian, or did Julian "assign" Sarah to Ed given that the whole "leaky" world was in the know which suggests Sarah has some worldly skills, esp if they were not helped by the FSB to escape Chinese security and the CIA. Irrespective of the article, these are some interesting, and quite juicy, questions. --John Bessa (talk) 02:42, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

The Google test doesn't seem to indicate that it is not widely present, and it seems like any FSM connection would be pretty big news. Russia today also doesn't mention anything. It seems to indicate that the provided sources might not be entirely reliable and the FSM connection could be somewhat fringe, so maybe not pageworthy. AVAAGAA↪ 02:46, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Word eating time. It's from AFP and is now on Fox News. AVAAGAA↪ 02:48, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I am critical of Kelley's article because it hinges on an "egotistical" model (maladaptive/personality disorders), when the personalities of our "wiki-leaky friends" are probably fully-developed, and thus not maladaptive suggesting that their actions are based on morality rather than "empire-building through information " (such as in empiricism does). (If there is an "egotist," however, it would probably be Julian; which brings back the question "is Julian trying to set up a left-oriented spy/intelligence agency?) What the article introduces for the first time (in Snowden's short history) is a timeline, and I think we should leverage this. Having said that, the real facts will eventually emerge, so there is a "wait and see" factor, which is the nature of spy stories. What we must do (to write a stellar wiki article--which this is not) is model the facts as we see them into a viable scenario, and then collaboratively fuse our individual models to eliminate each of their weak points/facts primarily by a) showing illogic in the context of the bigger picture or b) "attacking" their underlying sources: build the scenario/model from supportable fact. Suffice to say that everybody cannot do this as it requires collaborative/social and spatial organization thinking abilities that are different than the disruption 5 posts above.--John Bessa (talk) 12:23, 3 August 2013 (UTC).

I just want to add that the egotistical/moral dyad filter is not new to me. I thought it might be but editors on the Emma Goldman page pointed out that the technique has been long used on the WP to sort through the "cruft." --John Bessa (talk) 14:10, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

FBI Insider Threat, Prior BoozAllen Incidents, Honolulu centrality

It should be noted that the same pattern of situations between the FBI managed Lulzsec hack of boozAllen data and the FBI managed positioning of both FBI SAC Vida Bottom (tech counter-intelligence expert) at Honolulu with significant pre-positioning of concerns of insider threats related to access to SBU Sensitive-But-Unclassified data via open USB plugs and the movement of various CYBER and counter-intelligence specialists throughout the FBI including removal of Gordon Snow from CYBER the same date as lulzsec and olympic-games (stuxnet) were announced publicly and the positioning of Vida Bottom and Snowden for further insider-threat activities at Booz-Allen and the new NSA command facility at Honolulu. Direct relations, inter-associated parties, and significant pattern media and news propaganda surrounding the scheduled situations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.43.201.210 (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Could you please break that down into something people with earthly IQs might understand? --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:55, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Intro Cleanup?

Reading about continued edits to the intro paragraph, I wonder if it isn't a tidge malformed as it stands and that is what invites some mischief. He did not go to school to become, nor did he ever earn a salary as a "leaker." Even other current notorious individuals don't get this treatment: "Bradley Edward Manning (born December 17, 1987) is a United States Army soldier who was arrested in May 2010 in Iraq on suspicion of having passed classified..." or "Jack Allan Abramoff (/ˈeɪbrəmɒf/; born February 28, 1958) is a former American lobbyist, businessman, movie producer and writer.[1][2] He was at the heart of an extensive corruption investigation..." Something more like this might be good, (but I am not going to just change anything on this page without discussion and agreement):

Edward Joseph Snowden (born June 21, 1983)[1] is a computer consultant, formerly employed by the United States National Security Agency (NSA) and the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). In May 2013 he leaked to the media classified details of some U.S. and UK governments' clandestine mass surveillance programs, and fled the U.S.[6][7] On June 14, 2013, United States federal prosecutors charged Snowden with espionage and theft of government property.[8] On August 1, 2013 he was granted temporary asylum by the government of Russia where he has been since June 2013.

Shoobe01 (talk) 04:11, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I disagree. Per WP:BEGIN, for topics notable for only one reason, this reason should usually be given in the first sentence. Check out the footnoted example of Amalie Emmy Noether. Or any number of famous whistleblowers such as Daniel Ellsberg, William Binney, Mark Klein, ... you get the idea. There's no guideline that first sentence of a BLP must be 100% devoted to the subject's career. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:48, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Not sure if it is much of a big deal, but there seems to be an unnecessary period in the first sentence after the term "leaker" which grammatically disjoints the rest of the sentence. Requesting a user with elevated privileges to rectify that. Gamanoid (talk) 06:21, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, my fault. Fixed. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:34, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

While looking at periods, can we be consistent "U.S." vs "UK"; I don't have a preference either way just one or the other. LGA _talk^edits 07:18, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I hate the term "leaker." It sounds like he's incontinent. But it is widely used. "Fugitive" is ok, although I would argue he's better known for the leaks than for being a fugitive. I do think if we're going to call him a "fugitive" in the lede we need to expand on it in the article. The lede it supposed to summarize the rest of the article. In the current version, the lede is the only place where the term "fugitive" appears. Personally, I think we should go back to calling him something like "former analyst" since that was his career. Kendall-K1 (talk) 14:01, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Dissident

What's wrong with using the word "dissident" to describe Edward Snowden? Do we really need sourcing to support this when it seems he pretty clearly falls into the definition? And what's POV about it? It seems like a neutral term to me. --Dr. Fleischman (talk) 04:52, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't have a problem with it. At some point we might want to pick a term and stick with it. Hero, Villain, and the like are out of the question and are clearly just POV. But there's also a lesser war between terms other that are accurate: fugitive, leaker, and whistleblower. Nobody has gone for asylee yet, though that fits too. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 06:16, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, traitor definitely does not fit. Dissident is fine, as is whistle-blower, or even dissident whistle-blower. — Preceding unsigned comment added by RuiNing (talk • contribs) 09:19, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't think too hard. Instead, use what the neutral sources say. People have strong opinions, which need to be kept out of the article. Jehochman ^Talk 09:56, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Neutral sources have said all of the above. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 16:49, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Locking the Page

Should we lock the page up because of vandals and stuff? Mister Hungry 05:15, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I think that at least making it protected for a while might be a good thing. Zuchinni one (talk) 05:30, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

It gets old to see the same vandal-wars. Hero! no! Traitor! no! Savior! no! Satan Incarnate! over and over again. --71.20.55.6 (talk) 06:09, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

The page has been semi-protected for a week by an admin. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 06:13, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Rewrite wiki-style in a sandbox somewhere, like, as an experiment in vandal-avoidance? --John Bessa (talk) 14:19, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

of London's The Guardian ?

Is the use of the phrase "of London's The Guardian" in the lead that sourced to anything ? - the WP article says that until the 1959 it was known as The Manchester Guardian. Would it be better to say the British Guardian newspaper ? LGA _talk^edits 06:24, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

FWIW, I've always heard it referred to as a British newspaper. petrarchan47tc 07:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you should drop all location info from The Guardian because they recently announced they are a global player beyond UK or Great Britain. They have dropped the .co.uk domain and now use .com: http://www.journalism.co.uk/news/guardian-to-change-domain-to-theguardian-com/s2/a553070/ http://www.theguardian.com/help/insideguardian/2013/may/24/theguardian-global-domain "Our audience is no longer primarily in the UK. Every month, our online content is accessed from almost every country around the world. In fact, UK users now represent just a third of our total audience." 149.254.183.172 (talk) 09:05, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Government bias and edition of the page

Request a lock on this page please? Somebody from Senate.gov has edited the page with misleading information, referring to Edward Snowden as a traitor rather then a dissident, misleading people who read the wikipedia page. Potential case for locking the page from gov IP ranges?

PROOF: http://imgur.com/a/s1YAD 99.252.209.195 (talk) 09:40, 3 August 2013 (UTC) swamiwammiloo /pol/

I have redacted that link, no idea if it safe or fishing. LGA _talk^edits 09:28, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Were you paid to type that? Imgur is not phishing. 99.252.209.195 (talk) 09:33, 3 August 2013 (UTC) swamiwammiloo

remove auto-link from it and will post on WP:AN. LGA _talk^edits 09:37, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

You seriously don't know what imgur is? Th4n3r (talk) 15:50, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Snowden was referred to as a traitor in the opening of the summary by the IP you refer to which goes against WP policy. The word is used later in the summary, and I have added cites to sustain this. Obviously, there is a legal problem with using the term given the absence of a conviction, but one of the cited users is the Speaker of Congress! I added Daniel Ellsberg and a report from Amnesty International for the public interest defense argument. I removed "hero" because the word count would become slanted one way. Philip Cross (talk) 10:11, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Maybe not that relevant to the current matter but Wikileaks has just tweeted about this matter on their Twitter page. 99.252.209.195 (talk) 10:42, 3 August 2013 (UTC) swamiwammiloo

If I may bring up the point briefly, is this sort of edit something that the page itself would archive? Perhaps a line in the US Government's reaction section? or is it deemed to be too small/irrelevant?

If this is something we could add, I'd want to ensure it is added. this is a pretty sneaky and downright idiotic attempt at slander, from the senate no less! --Kizzycocoa (talk) 11:18, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

@ Kizzycocoa Sneaky would imply Congress is technologically literate and capable of covering their tracks. You'd think they'd use .Tor or wait until they weren't governing the country to make such slanderous edits. 99.252.209.195 (talk) 11:37, 3 August 2013 (UTC) swamiwammiloo

While I fully concur, I just feel this blatant act should be noted on the wiki page itself. :U --Kizzycocoa (talk) 12:00, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

There is nothing whatsoever to indicate that this was anything but some random low-level government employee expressing an opinion. Making it out to be some sort of 'official statement' is ridiculous. Grow up. AndyTheGrump (talk) 15:56, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

The U.S. government wants to edit Snowden's biography

Here are the facts:

• This edit from a particular IP address changed the wording from "Edward Joseph Snowden is an American dissident" to "Edward Joseph Snowden is an American traitor"
• Go to the IP's User_talk:156.33.241.5 page, and it says that "This IP address, 156.33.241.5, is registered to United States Senate and may be shared by multiple users of a government agency or facility."
• For further confirmation, go to Special:Contributions/156.33.241.5 and click on "GEOLOCATE" and the IP will be traced back to the United States Senate.

By labelling someone as a traitor, this IP is pushing a strong POV that clearly violates WP:BLP and was done without consensus from other Wikipedia users, but this is not entirely surprising given that the IP is from the government -A1candidate (talk) 10:05, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing this out in text, so you can't be accused of 'fishing' by somebody, A1candidate. I appreciate that some people here are willing to go the extra mile to be impartial and seek only the facts and truth of the matter. 99.252.209.195 (talk) 10:30, 3 August 2013 (UTC) swamiwammiloo

As I mentioned before, the signal to noise ratio (SNR) is especially high because the story is still in progress and because it's so highly-politicized. The way to phrase something this is "some believe he is a hero, others a traitor" and then argue which comes first (google number of references test? [GNRT]). That is what is meant by objectivity, modeling the facts into a believable perception, rather than expressing opinion (on the article page). In the first stages, objectivity has to mean unusual openness, which might get reduced somewhat as time goes on (but probably not as focus shifts to more current events). --John Bessa (talk) 14:28, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

It would be misleading to imply that everyone thinks that Snowden is either a traitor or a hero - many people may consider him to be something in between. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:35, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 3 August 2013

Please change "traitor" to "hero". 24.126.171.168 (talk) 10:26, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

-

Niotice* In Griesheim,....,unimportant.

Main matter is have the British as USA intelegence services taken Tax as Buisnes/Bank data out off the runing comercial proscess and used them for tactical statistitiks ,in exteritoral ground or out off ther homeland ,violent when in done in states without ther knowleage,more important how can do that without been meber off a intelegence service.Difficult, — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.219.46.210 (talk) 10:28, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

The "traitor" term has been removed already, but "hero" is a bit too far in the other direction. Tarc (talk) 12:49, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

Order of sections

Wouldn't it make more sense for the "Media disclosures" section to come before the "Flight from the U.S." section? The current ordering of these sections is non-chronological and rather confusing. Is there a particular reason for this ordering, or would it be okay for me to switch the order of the sections? --Philpill691 (talk) 15:53, 3 August 2013 (UTC)