Talk:Chelsea Manning: Difference between revisions
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I would have thought it appropriate to refer to Chelsea as 'she' in her timeline from now onwards, but 'he' for historical facts. Saying 'She was a gay man', for example, and mixing up historical quotes referring to 'him' right next to referring to 'she' could be confusing or misleading - especially when her gender identity was, at the time referred to in the text, either male, uncertain or undeclared. --[[Special:Contributions/151.230.243.44|151.230.243.44]] ([[User talk:151.230.243.44|talk]]) 15:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC) |
I would have thought it appropriate to refer to Chelsea as 'she' in her timeline from now onwards, but 'he' for historical facts. Saying 'She was a gay man', for example, and mixing up historical quotes referring to 'him' right next to referring to 'she' could be confusing or misleading - especially when her gender identity was, at the time referred to in the text, either male, uncertain or undeclared. --[[Special:Contributions/151.230.243.44|151.230.243.44]] ([[User talk:151.230.243.44|talk]]) 15:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC) |
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== Requested move == |
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{{Requested move/dated|Bradley Manning}} |
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[[:Chelsea Manning]] → {{no redirect|Bradley Manning}} – I am requesting that this page be moved back to its previous title of Bradley Manning so a thorough discussion can take place. |
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[[Wikipedia:Requested moves]] makes it clear that the "Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves" process should be used in the following circumstance: |
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::"Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested." |
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Additionally, [[Wikipedia:Article titles]] states the following: |
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::"Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made." |
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Note that my move request is not a comment on what the page should eventually be called (I personally believe Chelsea is the proper title), but rather a recognition of the short-term term need to follow policy. [[User:CaseyPenk|CaseyPenk]] ([[User talk:CaseyPenk|talk]]) 15:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC) |
Revision as of 15:14, 22 August 2013
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Blanket?
What is a blanket that cannot be shredded and how is it different from a normal blanket? 117.199.7.24 (talk) 05:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)Dodo
Infobox
I've updated the infobox to reflect the convictions but some of the non-standard formatting used in the other infobox aren't carried through. We should preserve the info about his awards and stuff. Please help update the new (now more appropriate) infobox. Toddst1 (talk) 22:13, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
- Hi Todd, I've restored the previous custom-built box (instead of using infobox criminal), because it means we can add whatever parameters we want. I've retained the old parameters and included the new ones you added. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
- Great - thanks! It looks good. Toddst1 (talk) 00:17, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
Date formats
I'd like at some point to go through the dates and change to day first, as in 30 July 2013. It saves extra commas, e.g. "He was convicted on 30 July 2013 of 17 of the 22 charges," instead of "He was convicted on July 30, 2013, of 17 of the 22 charges." We're supposed to check before doing this, so does anyone mind? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:40, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
- An excellent idea. Rothorpe (talk) 17:33, 14 August 2013 (UTC)
- Done. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:04, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- Bad idea. Normal US date format is DMY. The military date format should not apply to individual people. Should be changed back per WP:DATERET — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jojhutton (talk • contribs) 21:27, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- Done. SlimVirgin (talk) 16:04, 16 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've restored the date formats. I checked on 31 July and waited until 16 August to change it, which is long enough for someone to have objected. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:47, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- Why switch to this format? Because it will mean less comas? Shouldn't it be US date format since he is an American, or is there something different for military personel? Also, somebody did object above, I'll try to find out who. Thanks, --Malerooster (talk) 23:40, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes it should. It should be reverted back to the DMY version per WP:DATERETJOJ Hutton 23:45, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- Why switch to this format? Because it will mean less comas? Shouldn't it be US date format since he is an American, or is there something different for military personel? Also, somebody did object above, I'll try to find out who. Thanks, --Malerooster (talk) 23:40, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- I've restored the date formats. I checked on 31 July and waited until 16 August to change it, which is long enough for someone to have objected. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:47, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
Some points:
- WP:MOSDATE says: "Articles on topics with strong ties to a particular English-speaking country should generally use the more common date format for that nation. For the United States, this is month before day ..."
- But it also says: "Sometimes the customary format differs from the usual national one: for example, articles on the modern US military use day before month, in accordance with military usage."
- And: "The date format chosen by the first major contributor in the early stages of an article should continue to be used ..." Looking back at the earlier versions, both formats were used, e.g. here: "As of June 7, Manning had not yet been formally charged," but "Wired released apparent excerpts from the chat logs between Manning and Lamo on 10 June 2010."
- Furthermore, there is an international dimension via Bradley's mother and the significant international interest.
Therefore, because of the above, and because DMY is easier to write, I asked if there were objections, and waited over two weeks before changing it (which was quite a bit of work, by the way, for anyone thinking of changing it back). SlimVirgin (talk) 23:56, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- ok, asked and answered. I like working on bios even though my copy editing sucks and usually American bios follow MDY dating. I don't really care though. Thank you, --Malerooster (talk) 00:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Reaction section in the lead seems to take a POV
That section emphasizes the pro-manning view point pretty strongly. I think it should be rewritten in a much more neutral way. Toddst1 (talk) 20:59, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see how it is pro or anti, Todd. It says he was "viewed as both a 21st-century Tiananmen Square Tank Man and an embittered traitor," and that he was an apparently very unhappy Army private with access to classified material. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:29, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, now that you point it out, both portrayals are highly POV, both positive and negative. Calling him a tank man is every bit as POV as calling him a traitor. He was convicted of theft, espionage and other criminal issues, not of being a traitor. I think it would be better to say that reaction has been highly polarized with those examples. Toddst1 (talk) 22:25, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- We do start the paragraph by saying that reaction was mixed, and the examples from Nicks illustrate just how polarized it was. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:34, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- OK. I agree. Toddst1 (talk) 22:37, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- The POV is still off as per what Nicks write - the way it reads currently is that Nicks is comparing him to the Tiananmen Square man, where as in the book he just uses it to contrast the opposing views on what Manning has done. http://books.google.com/books?id=GE_yDipSkYQC&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.228.62.98 (talk) 14:49, 3 August 2013 (UTC)
- OK. I agree. Toddst1 (talk) 22:37, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
- We do start the paragraph by saying that reaction was mixed, and the examples from Nicks illustrate just how polarized it was. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:34, 2 August 2013 (UTC)
The reaction section graph starting "Manning and WikiLeaks were credited as catalysts for the Arab Spring" is duplicative of the introduction. One or the other should be removed. IMO, it should be the second, which is so POV it adopts a fawning tone. The references there are extensive, but there is no balance.Leslynjd (talk) 17:54, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- The last paragraph of the lead summarizes the reaction, so it's okay to say it twice. As for balance, it's a fact that they were credited as catalysts, so I'm not sure what it could be balanced with, or why would we would need to try to balance it. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:34, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
- unless these views as a "catalyst" etc are widely held (something along the lines of WP:RS/AC at a minimum we would need to say "credited by X as a catalyst" since the nature of the claim is somewhat dubious and POV. Peopel such as Manning are easy targets for people to use both positively and negatively for propaganda/rehtorical purposes - people using such rhetorical devices should be viewed with a critical eye unless the viewpoint is widely held. Gaijin42 (talk) 20:42, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
The viewpoint is widely held. Some sources used for this in the article:
- Nicks, Denver. Private: Bradley Manning, WikiLeaks, and the Biggest Exposure of Official Secrets in American History. Chicago Review Press, 2012, pp. 212–216.
- Walker, Peter. "Amnesty International hails WikiLeaks and Guardian as Arab spring 'catalysts'", The Guardian, 13 May 2011.
- Horne, Nigel. "Tunisia: WikiLeaks had a part in Ben Ali's downfall", The Week, 15 January 2011.
- "In the year of the protester, Bradley Manning is the great dissenter", The Irish Times, 24 December 2011.
- Rosenbach, Marcel and Schmitz, Gregor Peter. "US Determined to Punish Bradley Manning", Der Spiegel, 15 December 2011.
- Malinowski, Tom. "Whispering at Autocrats", Foreign Policy, 25 January 2011.
- "A Selection From the Cache of Diplomatic Dispatches", The New York Times.
- Black, Ian. "WikiLeaks cables: Tunisia blocks site reporting 'hatred' of first lady", The Guardian, 7 December 2010.
- "Time's Person of the Year: the Protester", Time magazine, 14 December 2011.
SlimVirgin (talk) 21:59, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Overuse of Nicks source
I have no issue with the source per se, other than I wouldn't necessarily put it in the same category as a more traditional RS> However, we seem to rely on this one source a lot. This is a widely covered story, and regardless of the quality of the Nicks source, relying on one source for some much of the content/references seems less than ideal. Even if the Nicks source is absolutely fantastic, it's one perspective. Just as undue weight to perspectives in the article in general is a concern, undue weight to any one given source is concerning as well. I'm not suggesting we go on a Nicks pogram, but we should be looking to replace some of the content with other RS, even if it's supporting the same thing.
Some of the Nicks stuff, especially the unnecessarily hyperbolic bit about Tank man and traitor in the lede, is unencyclopedic. I would recommend removing that bit. You don't need to use his terms to reference him. It would be much more encyclopedic to summarize reaction in general in the lede...the majority of that section is given over just to Nicks in the lede, including far greater detail on that one assertion than is necessary. The fact that he is showing a balance of inflammatory rections doesn't mean we have the use his same inflammatory language. I would suggest simplifying it to something like, "reaction varied widely, etc." The language used may be great for an autobiography; I don't think it's appropriate for an encyclopedic entry. 204.65.34.238 (talk) 20:08, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- Nicks's book is the most informed journalistic source on Manning, so it would be odd to replace it with a less informed one. As for the lead, the Tank man/traitor juxtaposition sums up well the wide range of opinion, and how it has veered from one extreme to another. I couldn't think of a more succinct way to do that. The problem with expressing it in general terms without in-text attribution is that someone else will come along and ask whose opinion it is. SlimVirgin (talk) 20:50, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
"a former United States Army soldier"
Is he not still a private in the United States Army? --RA (✍) 23:58, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
- I assume not because he was discharged, but the person to check with is User:Srich32977. He is our in-house expert on these matters. :) SlimVirgin (talk) 00:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Several reports I'm reading talk about discharge in the future tense. When does the discharge take effect? Now or on release? --RA (✍) 00:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you, SV, but I'm really more of the out-house expert. At the moment Manning is still in the Army. His sentencing gets reviewed by high level judge advocates (JAGs) and then approved by the convening authority -- the commanding general of the Washington area military district. Once approved, written orders are "cut" which say "you are hereby reduced in rank to Private E-1." I'm not sure when his dishonorable discharge paperwork gets cut, because the military will retain jurisdiction over him until his sentence is completed. Perhaps when he completes his full term. (I will research this.) But the proper way to address him will be "Manning", not "Private Manning". So for WP purposes we can say (shortly) he ain't in the Army no more. – S. Rich (talk) 00:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Several reports I'm reading talk about discharge in the future tense. When does the discharge take effect? Now or on release? --RA (✍) 00:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, Srich. Someone added "former" to "Manning ... is a United States Army soldier" in the first sentence. Do you think we should we retain "former" or remove it for now? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- ...or sidestep the question, for example by saying he "...was a Specialist in the United States Army..." thereby avoiding saying what he is now. --RA (✍) 00:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Is a former US Army soldier who ...." His sentence might be reduced (unlikely), but the reduction in rank and dishonorable discharge are sure to be upheld by the GCMCA. – S. Rich (talk) 01:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Crystal balls aside, what is Mannings current status? Has Manning been discharged. That is the sentence. But has it happened?
- If someone was sentenced to death, we would not say they were dead until the sentence had been executed. Manning has been sentenced to be dishonourably discharged. Has the sentence been carried out? Has Manning been discharged? --RA (✍) 14:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Is a former US Army soldier who ...." His sentence might be reduced (unlikely), but the reduction in rank and dishonorable discharge are sure to be upheld by the GCMCA. – S. Rich (talk) 01:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- ...or sidestep the question, for example by saying he "...was a Specialist in the United States Army..." thereby avoiding saying what he is now. --RA (✍) 00:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Thanks, Srich. Someone added "former" to "Manning ... is a United States Army soldier" in the first sentence. Do you think we should we retain "former" or remove it for now? SlimVirgin (talk) 00:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- In any case, his rank has been diminished and he is no longer allowed to wear the uniform he is pictured in. Anyone have a neutral headshot sans uniform? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.226.20.130 (talk) 05:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Time to move the article to Chelsea Manning
She's made a statement that her name is Chelsea Manning, so the pronouns should be changed to she and the article renamed Chelsea. The FAQ about Brenna no longer applies. 11:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Agreed, [1] appears to be pretty unambiguous. What do we think? Morwen (talk) 12:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
I also agree based on the evidence. Nicholas Perkins (T•C) 12:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- If nothing else, we need an immediate redirect. A search on Chelsea Manning doesn't yield this article, it yield an article about football club Chelsea FC. 68.81.192.33 (talk) 12:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, I tried a move. Disappointingly, User:Cls14 has reverted immediately back, using a highly gendered term in their edit summary! I'm assuming this is some kind of misunderstanding over not having read the reference, so will not put it back just yet. Morwen (talk) 12:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
It's pretty confusing to see Manning described with female pronouns for the time in which they served as a male soldier. I recommend to use the male pronoun for the time prior to their recent declaration concerning their identity. As to the article title, that should follow the predominant usage in reliable sources, as everything else. Sandstein 12:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- That would go against long-established practice, and MOS:IDENTITY
- Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. This applies in references to any phase of that person's life.
I have sent Morwen a message about this stating I was unaware of any potential change and as such I thought it was a scam. In the article itself it didn't mention any gender change so I assumed it was spam, which it clearly isn't Cls14 (talk) 12:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I did cite the article in my edit summary! Morwen (talk) 12:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
It appears that User:Morwen has moved the page to Chelsea Manning for a second time. The move is hasty and without proper consultation with editors. I think this article should be moved back to Bradley Manning until it is confirmed the subject has legally changed his/her name and a majority of reliable sources start referring to this subject as "Chelsea Manning". --Tocino 12:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Maybe I'm missing something but AFAIK Bradley wants to be a woman but isn't yet. Also, I don't believe his name has been officially changed to Chelsea. I find this move extremely premature, not to say ridiculous. This is not a Wendy Carlos situation. Yet. Yintan 12:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'm just happy he didn't decide to self-identify as Jesus Christ could you imagine the redirects. SMH. This dude is named Bradley Manning until officially recognized by the courts. Chelsea is what we would call a nickname. †TE†Talk 13:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. " from MOS:IDENTITY. Tombomp (talk/contribs) 13:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Many sources are still reporting the name as Bradley Manning. For instance: The Telegraph: Bradley Manning wants to live as a woman called Chelsea, Washington Post: Bradley Manning says he is now a woman named Chelsea, BBC: Bradley Manning: 'I want to be a woman', The Independent: Bradley Manning wants to live as a woman, Channel 14: Bradley Manning: I want to be a woman (called Chelsea), RT: #FreeChelsea: Bradley Manning states he's 'female', wants to live as ‘Chelsea’, ABC News: Bradley Manning Says He Wants to Live as a Woman and Today: Bradley Manning: I want to live as a woman. Sources even referrer to the person as "he". I think article move was hasted. Mohamed CJ (talk) 13:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Self-identification". What other sources refer to her as is irrelevant. She has self identified as female, and by MOS:IDENTITY that means the article should use female pronouns. Casiotonetalk 13:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- After reading MOS:IDENTITY, I think we should use female gender nouns, pronouns and possessive adjectives, because that's her latest expressed gender self-identification. Mohamed CJ (talk) 13:15, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- In other words, we have to follow whatever a person decides to call his/herself this week? No. MOS:IDENTITY says "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to (etc)". There is, as yet, no question about Manning's gender at all. Yintan 13:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- We wouldn't be having this discussion if there was no question about her gender. Mohamed CJ (talk) 13:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- You're absolutely right, of course - there is no longer a question about Manning's gender. She is female without doubt. I'm glad you agree. Casiotonetalk 13:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Self-identification". What other sources refer to her as is irrelevant. She has self identified as female, and by MOS:IDENTITY that means the article should use female pronouns. Casiotonetalk 13:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Many sources are still reporting the name as Bradley Manning. For instance: The Telegraph: Bradley Manning wants to live as a woman called Chelsea, Washington Post: Bradley Manning says he is now a woman named Chelsea, BBC: Bradley Manning: 'I want to be a woman', The Independent: Bradley Manning wants to live as a woman, Channel 14: Bradley Manning: I want to be a woman (called Chelsea), RT: #FreeChelsea: Bradley Manning states he's 'female', wants to live as ‘Chelsea’, ABC News: Bradley Manning Says He Wants to Live as a Woman and Today: Bradley Manning: I want to live as a woman. Sources even referrer to the person as "he". I think article move was hasted. Mohamed CJ (talk) 13:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Any person whose gender might be questioned should be referred to by the gendered nouns (for example "man/woman", "waiter/waitress", "chairman/chairwoman"), pronouns, and possessive adjectives that reflect that person's latest expressed gender self-identification. " from MOS:IDENTITY. Tombomp (talk/contribs) 13:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- "I also request that starting today you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun."--Brian Dell (talk) 13:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- He can request all he likes, Bdel555, that doesn't make it true. Or factual. Yintan 13:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
He signed his...I mean (no kidding intended) ... she signed her name "Chelsea E. Manning" on the Today Show statement, but indicated that his name in official mail to the detention facility is still Bradley Manning. Here is the statement:
Subject: The Next Stage of My Life
I want to thank everybody who has supported me over the last three years. Throughout this long ordeal, your letters of support and encouragement have helped keep me strong. I am forever indebted to those who wrote to me, made a donation to my defense fund, or came to watch a portion of the trial. I would especially like to thank Courage to Resist and the Bradley Manning Support Network for their tireless efforts in raising awareness for my case and providing for my legal representation.
As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Chelsea Manning. I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible. I hope that you will support me in this transition. I also request that, starting today, you refer to me by my new name and use the feminine pronoun (except in official mail to the confinement facility). I look forward to receiving letters from supporters and having the opportunity to write back.
Thank you,
Chelsea E. Manning
Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 13:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Chelsea's statement is very clear and seems almost designed to invoke MOS:IDENTITY, which is also very clear. I regard this matter as a WP:BLP area. Morwen (talk) 13:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- And the sources are equally clear that it's still "he".[2] Wikipedia is not supposed to be an advocate, it's supposed to report valid sources. You need to revert this article back to where it was, until such time as the sources starting calling him "her". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 13:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Thank you so much for renaming the article. But the pronouns used for her throughout the article are still inconsistent. What does the E in Chelsea E. Manning stand for? --88.73.34.231 (talk) 14:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Where is a source for "Chelsea E. Manning"? It could be that Manning has decided to drop the middle name. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Easy. "Bradley Manning wants to live as a woman, be called Chelsea". Fox News (AP). 22 August 2013. Retrieved 22 August 2013.
The statement was signed "Chelsea E. Manning."
. LFaraone 15:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Easy. "Bradley Manning wants to live as a woman, be called Chelsea". Fox News (AP). 22 August 2013. Retrieved 22 August 2013.
Time for New Secton on Gender Identity Issues?
I created a subsection for the BACKGROUND part of the article for his gender reassignment. This may only be a temporary thing. Should there be a seperate section collecting information on his gender issues? (I seem to be having an issue with his gender as I just realized I used the masculine pronoun for Chelsea.)Shemp Howard, Jr. (talk) 13:18, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
This is why Wikipedia is such a sad, pathetic joke
Bradley Manning is the person's name, legally. I have no idea what is going on here, and assumed the article was vandalized, until I read all the nonsense above. I would have expected a speedy revert until a *reliable source* indiciated otherwise. Can an adult editor please step in? 198.161.2.241 (talk) 13:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hello. Admin of ten years standing here. today.com is a reliable source. Morwen (talk) 13:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- No need to flash your badge, officer, but the manner in which this hasty move has been executed is a bit ridiculous. Surely you can see that? †TE†Talk 13:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- What do you find to be hasty? Unless we aren't taking the Today Show as a reliable source, Manning's expression is public, and we should adjust our titles to reflect the policy of deference to LGBT self-identity. If you have a problem with that general policy, then we can talk about that. But Morwen is 100% correct that everyone needs a rebuttal. --\/\/slack (talk) 14:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, it's ridiculous the number of people making transphobic arguments against a fairly straightforward page move. It's ridiculous that anyone would think they saying new here that hasn't been hashed out before, that we are supposed to rebut each one individually. Morwen (talk) 13:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Transphobic"? Am I missing something? Yintan 13:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The theory being that Manning isn't allowed to decide how we should refer to her. That lack of deference to her wishes constitutes a lack of respect / transphobia. --\/\/slack (talk) 14:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The overriding "theory" is that we follow common names and valid sourcing. Maybe it will be there tomorrow, but it isn't there today. Editors who want to abuse Wikipedia for the sake of advocacy have been itching to make this move for many months now. They have moved too soon, and make Wikipedia live down to the level its critics accuse it of being. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The sourcing is valid. MOS:IDENTITY is clear. Take your soapbox somewhere else. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS does not override sourcing. Take your own soapbox somewhere else. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- We have multiple mainstream media sources reporting Manning's statement. If you wish to make even more of a fool of your self and argue that they aren't reliable, do so at WP:RSN. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Reporting the statement, yes. He asked the media to start calling him "she". Once the media broadly starts doing that, then you'll have an argument. You don't, yet. The only fool that's being made of with this advocacy-driven change is Wikipedia itself. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- My argument is based on what MOS:IDENTITY says. As it was when I opposed attempts to rename Manning as Breanna, prior to Manning making the statement. If you wish to argue that MOS:IDENTITY is wrong, this isn't the place to do so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The MOS is the opinion of Wikipedians. It does not override sourcing. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- My argument is based on what MOS:IDENTITY says. As it was when I opposed attempts to rename Manning as Breanna, prior to Manning making the statement. If you wish to argue that MOS:IDENTITY is wrong, this isn't the place to do so. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Reporting the statement, yes. He asked the media to start calling him "she". Once the media broadly starts doing that, then you'll have an argument. You don't, yet. The only fool that's being made of with this advocacy-driven change is Wikipedia itself. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:28, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- We have multiple mainstream media sources reporting Manning's statement. If you wish to make even more of a fool of your self and argue that they aren't reliable, do so at WP:RSN. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:25, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS does not override sourcing. Take your own soapbox somewhere else. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The sourcing is valid. MOS:IDENTITY is clear. Take your soapbox somewhere else. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:19, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The overriding "theory" is that we follow common names and valid sourcing. Maybe it will be there tomorrow, but it isn't there today. Editors who want to abuse Wikipedia for the sake of advocacy have been itching to make this move for many months now. They have moved too soon, and make Wikipedia live down to the level its critics accuse it of being. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The theory being that Manning isn't allowed to decide how we should refer to her. That lack of deference to her wishes constitutes a lack of respect / transphobia. --\/\/slack (talk) 14:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- "Transphobic"? Am I missing something? Yintan 13:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- No need to flash your badge, officer, but the manner in which this hasty move has been executed is a bit ridiculous. Surely you can see that? †TE†Talk 13:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Page moved to Chelsea Manning without sufficient consensus
With all due consideration to MOS:IDENTITY and the page mover's talk page posts, this was not a noncontroversial page move, and as such requires consensus under Request to Move discussion and vote. --Mareklug talk 13:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Nope. Morwen (talk) 13:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- MOS:IDENTITY is pretty clear on the matter - David Gerard (talk) 13:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Your link does not say anything about where the article should be located, and other policies, I think, trump this move. --Mareklug talk 13:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) MOS:IDENTITY is indeed clear. The question is, does it apply to article titles as well or do we follow WP:COMMONNAME? Mohamed CJ (talk) 13:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- This fails WP:POLICY (and therefore MOS:IDENTITY) by overriding WP:UCN policy with MOS:IDENTITY guideline, when at the very top of the page it is indicated that it is a guideline and not a policy, therefore subject to policies, whenever a conflict between policy and guideline is evident. The way to override a policy is by using the WP:IAR, and the way to do that is to establish a consensus to use it to apply MOS:IDENTITY instead of WP:UCN, which has not been done. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 14:20, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:COMMONNAME is also pretty clear. This definitely needs to be discussed first. I can't believe that there are editors saying it shouldn't be discussed - that is not what Wikipedia is about. And so now we're having a discussion about whether there should be a discussion... StAnselm (talk) 13:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia:WikiProject_LGBT_studies/Guidelines says "The Wikipedia Manual of Style's guidelines on identity indicate to refer to transgender individuals according to the names and pronouns they use to identify themselves." One has to first go to the Talk pages of these policy pages and get the guideline changed to at least allow for exceptions, otherwise we're bound by the policy like it or not. Fact is, Wikipedia currently gives huge deference to the desires of biography subjects when it comes to their sexual identity.--Brian Dell (talk) 13:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- It's also a WP:BLP, and Manning's statement (as Morwen notes above) pretty much perfectly matches the consideration in question. As such, I've put in a protection against moves for the same time period as the present autoconfirmed edit protection, which should allow enough time for all the discussion the change to the subject's documented chosen name will need - David Gerard (talk) 13:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- In the first place, you've misunderstood MOS:IDENTITY, which says "Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article. When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself" (emphasis mine). In the second place, you've totally gone against WP:RM, which says that if a move is controversial (which this one obviously was), it may be reverted, and should be proposed via a requested move. StAnselm (talk) 13:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:BLP mandates immediatism, not eventualism - David Gerard (talk) 13:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any dispute about the verification of the statement, and WP:BLP is very clear as David said. The only thing controversial about this are people's feelings about if we should accept the statement, which is a discussion that should happen around general policy. In this instance, the LGBT policy has been correctly applied, and FWIW, I would take strong exception against reverting this change. --\/\/slack (talk) 13:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- As I see it, given Manning's statement, the move is now entirely in accord with policy. There appears to be no legitimate grounds to doubt the authenticity of the statement, and MOS:IDENTITY makes it clear that we go by what Manning now says. Personally, I would have preferred a formal RfM, just to avoid the inevitable drama - but the result seems a foregone conclusion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:03, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't think there's any dispute about the verification of the statement, and WP:BLP is very clear as David said. The only thing controversial about this are people's feelings about if we should accept the statement, which is a discussion that should happen around general policy. In this instance, the LGBT policy has been correctly applied, and FWIW, I would take strong exception against reverting this change. --\/\/slack (talk) 13:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I happen to think Wikipedia indulges the views of biography subjects too much and should follow external sources more. But I have to disagree with StAnselm simply because we cannot interpret policy that way. That quote is from the first bullet point, which then says, "For example, see the article Jew..." The first bullet point is general, the second bullet point specific. Generally accepted interpretation is to follow the guideline for the specific case when there is a specific guideline available. The specific guideline may be seen as an exception to the general guideline.--Brian Dell (talk) 14:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I also think the changes are too rash and need to be thought through. Many parts of the articles no longer make sense and read terribly, and quite ridiculous in places. Atshal (talk) 14:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- WP:BLP mandates immediatism, not eventualism - David Gerard (talk) 13:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- In the first place, you've misunderstood MOS:IDENTITY, which says "Disputes over how to refer to a person or group are addressed by policies such as Verifiability, Neutral point of view, and Article titles where the term appears in the title of an article. When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself" (emphasis mine). In the second place, you've totally gone against WP:RM, which says that if a move is controversial (which this one obviously was), it may be reverted, and should be proposed via a requested move. StAnselm (talk) 13:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Pronouns are already shifting in RSes e.g. [3] [4] - David Gerard (talk) 14:11, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Once a source like CNN starts saying "she", you might have something. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'd consider the Independent to be much more likely to be news rather than stenography than CNN - David Gerard (talk) 14:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Wikipedia is, in fact, supposed to be "stenography", not "news". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'd consider the Independent to be much more likely to be news rather than stenography than CNN - David Gerard (talk) 14:16, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call it an RS, but crikey, even the Daily Mail - David Gerard (talk) 14:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Get back to us when a non-tabloid starts saying "she". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:31, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I wouldn't call it an RS, but crikey, even the Daily Mail - David Gerard (talk) 14:23, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The Independent, The Guardian - David Gerard (talk) 14:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The Guardian is not a valid source for anything related to the US. I see that the New York Times gets around this deal by generally substituting "Manning" for pronouns.[6] Wikipedia should do likewise until there is broad consensus among reliable sources, as opposed to sources who are merely advocates. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The Independent, The Guardian - David Gerard (talk) 14:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Move to Bradley Manning Wikipedia:Article titles is the appropriate policy page. Bradley Manning is the clearly policy-consistent name for this article, whatever name the subject chooses for themselves. --RA (✍) 14:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes. Until there's a legal name change, renaming the article is simply confusing. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a political soap box. Once Bradley Manning legally changes his name, then the article name change will reflect reality. 184.152.74.159 (talk) 14:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's no such line in the sand, such as requiring a "legal name change". Can you explain where in policy there's a requirement that we use a party's legal name as the title? MOS:IDENTITY explicitly contradicts that. LFaraone 14:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes. Until there's a legal name change, renaming the article is simply confusing. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a political soap box. Once Bradley Manning legally changes his name, then the article name change will reflect reality. 184.152.74.159 (talk) 14:30, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Totally agree that the name change is premature and highlights the silly side of the encyclopedia that everybody can edit. If this were an obscure figure, I could see following his wishes instead of what, say two or three outdated reliable sources say. But this is an internationally-known figure who the media reports on every day. In this case we need to follow the sources and not create headlines ourselves. We need to wait longer to see if the sources start changing the name... if they do then we do, if not then we keep it how it is. As for now this needs to be changed back as it was a major and controversial change done without consensus, and long before most of the media. The danger is that our title may change how the media reports his name, and we need to try and not actively influence the news as much as possible. ThemFromSpace 14:29, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see what is so silly about this. Chelsea wants to refer to herself as a woman, and I think wikipedia should respect her right to do that. The Guardian has altered it's section on Chelsea manning to account for her new identity. [7], and many other news agencies have done likewise. --Welshsocialist (talk) 14:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Good observation, I think it is highly relevant that it is likely a majority of the reliable sources will eventually move to the new name. We can get out ahead of the RS when there is no dispute that the sources will end up there.--Brian Dell (talk) 14:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, Og forbid our third-hand reporting should influence secondary sources to use the correct name as established by the primary source. —Psychonaut (talk) 14:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I don't see what is so silly about this. Chelsea wants to refer to herself as a woman, and I think wikipedia should respect her right to do that. The Guardian has altered it's section on Chelsea manning to account for her new identity. [7], and many other news agencies have done likewise. --Welshsocialist (talk) 14:32, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Moved back to Bradley Manning, then moved back to Chelsea Manning
Reverted move per WP:BLP. Note that BLP considerations override pretty much everything except the fundamental content policies and are absolutely what admin powers are for - David Gerard (talk) 14:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Agreed. Thank you for your actions. LFaraone 14:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) How on Earth is it a BLP violation to refer to someone by their legal name in an article title? -- tariqabjotu 14:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Morwen's move was correct. Per MOS:IDENTITY, we should use the name by which the subject identifies themselves. In this, that is Chelsea Manning. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support move to Chelsea Manning, on WP:IAR grounds. There is plenty of context to avoid confusing readers, there are plenty of sources for Manning wanting to be called Chelsea, so I see no good reason to not respect Manning's wishes. —me_and 14:40, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The move to "Chelsea" was NOT correct. It's an abuse of Wikipedia for the purpose of making Wikipedia an advocate. That is strictly against the rules. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:41, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
I suggest everyone that is not transgender restrain themselves from editing this article. This is as clear a statement as could possibly be made by Manning: People have offered sources from Today, the Daily Mail and the Guardian only to be told none of these sources are acceptable; in some sense I agree. I have written before (on the talk page for Bradley Manning) about the work of TransMediaUK, who document how the MSM are in general extremely poor sources when it comes to the gender of transgender people. The only acceptable source is Chelsea herself. 7daysahead (talk) 14:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Jesus wept - that is a complete NO,NO, NO, NO - where would it end? "Can anyone not White not edit this article?", "Can Black editors please move to the back of the edit queue?" --Cameron Scott (talk) 14:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
This has nothing to do with being transgender, and it especially has nothing to do with any external political position regarding transgender self-reference. As per Wikipedia:Article titles, the name should remain 'Bradley Manning' until such a time as the majority of reputable sources and the public refer to Bradley Manning as primarily Chelsea Manning (which will likely occur when/if Bradley Manning legally changes her name, but possibly sooner). It's not wikipedia's job to *create* a source, and it's especially not Wikipedia's job to push *any* political issues, including transgender social issues.
- Since move protection didn't seem to work, I've fully protected the article for the day. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:45, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The moves were all admins, and the text protection doesn't change that. Actual vandalism to the text hasn't been a problem so far, so I've wound it back to autoconfirmed (to keep stuff as open as possible) - David Gerard (talk) 14:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Totally agree with moving to Chelsea Manning. That is her wish, and everyone will get used to it quickly enough.
As for the "no transgender editors, please", it is basically a slur against those who did not wish to see the article moved. They are basing their side of the story, so to speak, solely on WP:RULES, not "How can a he become a 'she'?" transphobia.
As for the press "getting around" the issue by using "Manning", it is standard to refer to someone by their surname. When the press call the American president Obama, are they getting around using "he" or calling him "Barack"?? Such people are simply seeing what they want to see.
Anyway, I support the move to Chelsea. LudicrousTripe (talk) 15:04, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Totally agree with moving to Chelsea Manning. That is her wish, and everyone will get used to it quickly enough.
Before you comment
Can everyone please be a bit more careful and respectful with your comments around Chelsea Manning.
Some of the comments so far could be considered transphobic, and others are just completely ignorant.
So before you join in, and say whatever you are about to say, I politely ask that you spend the next 5-10 minutes reading up a bit on what it is to be trans* and the continued prejudice, discrimination, and disgusting levels of violence trans* people face.
Here's two good links to start you off (please add more if you know of any):
Thank you. --Chris 14:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- And, it would also be helpful to remind people that is extremely unhelpful to label people you don't know as prejudiced based on flimsy evidence. If you disagree with someone's assessment of the situation, fine, but some people have instinctively called anyone against the move to Chelsea Manning bigoted. -- tariqabjotu 14:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- This has nothing to do with transphobia. Wikipedia is not a political soapbox. Bradley Manning's legal name is still 'Bradley', news sources still refer to her as 'Bradley', and the public still knows her as 'Bradley'. Wikipedia's job isn't to define social issues, it's to serve as an encyclopedia. When and if sources, the public, or the legal name are changed, as per Wikipedia:Article_titles, it will be reasonable to change the name of the article.
- Actually, it's OK when they throw terms like "transphobia" around, because it betrays their intention to abuse Wikipedia to make a point, rather than following the rules. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I'll second that. Using incorrect names and pronouns is highly offensive to people with gender identity issues. I'm surprised nobody has quoted the Bible yet :P -Jenn348
- Using a non-legal name that primary sources are not yet using as the primary name is highly unhelpful to people trying to use Wikipedia as an encyclopedia instead of a political soapbox. Wikipedia:Article_titles.
- Let me be clear. I am making NO COMMENT above the move. In fact, I will completely stay out of that shitfest. All I ask is that you have a read before you comment. --Chris 14:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Also, this goes without saying, but I think I'd better spell it out anyway. Trans* people do edit Wikipedia. Chances are you have interacted with a trans* editor. While a comment may seem fine to you, it might be really hurtful to them. So please, before you click edit, read your comment through the shoes of a trans* person and think about how you would feel. --Chris 14:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Wheel warring?
Correct me if this is wrong. Moving over redirect is an admin action.
- 15:18 Morwen moved page Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning over redirect
- 15:22 Cls14 moved page Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning over redirect
- 15:43 Morwen moved page Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning over redirect
- 17:32 Tariqabjotu moved page Chelsea Manning to Bradley Manning
- 17:43 David Gerard moved page Bradley Manning to Chelsea Manning over redirect
Is this OK? Mohamed CJ (talk) 14:44, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Not really, no. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:46, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I wouldn't have reverted the move except for BLP considerations - David Gerard (talk) 14:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- BLP concerns are generally an exception to our edit warring rules, true. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The problem here is that some users' BLP interpretation is more strict than others'. I don't see many BLP issues here when since this has been his chosen name all his life until today. BLP issues warranting admin intervention are repeated insertion of untrue facts and outright libel, not this issue which is subjective and subject to editorial discretion. So yea, this was disruptive wheel warring on all parties and all parties should be admonished. And no, hiding behind the BLP policy doesn't justify the wheel war. ThemFromSpace 15:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- BLP concerns are generally an exception to our edit warring rules, true. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I wouldn't have reverted the move except for BLP considerations - David Gerard (talk) 14:47, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- No, it's not OK, not even one iota - it's abusing admin privileges for personal reasons. Since the move to "Chelsea" has no consensus, Morwen and Gerard need to be taken to WP:ANI or somewhere like that, with a call for suspending their admin privileges. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:49, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Typically Arbcom is the only place that handles the suspension of admin privileges. Mark Arsten (talk) 14:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- There's a call on ANI for uninvolved admins - David Gerard (talk) 14:52, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Moving over a historyless redirect wasn't an admin priv the last time I checked. Admittedly, it has been a while since I did last check. Has this changed? Morwen (talk) 14:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Moving when moves are protected is - David Gerard (talk) 14:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- So, certainly nothing I did then. User:Mohamed CJ and User:Baseball Bugs, can I have an apology please? Morwen (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The move to "Chelsea" was wrong, every time. Move it back to "Bradley", and then you can apologize to the rest of us, for abusing Wikipedia and for abusing your admin privileges. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:01, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- So, certainly nothing I did then. User:Mohamed CJ and User:Baseball Bugs, can I have an apology please? Morwen (talk) 14:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Legal change
No prejudice against LBGT individuals here, but I think usual media practice would be to wait until Manning changes his/her name legally. Sca (talk) 14:48, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Does that have meaning in the US? In the UK, at least, there is no such concept of "legal name". 7daysahead (talk) 14:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- And you have an unwritten Constitution, too. Yes, we have legal names, enshrined in gov't. records. One has to go to court to change it. Sca (talk) 14:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, in the US there are legal names enshrined in government records. However, they didn't necessarily become legal by such enshrinement; they were legal all along, and their appearance on government-issued IDs and the like merely recognizes and documents this pre-existing fact. —Psychonaut (talk) 15:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 8) There is such a concept in the US. However, Sca is incorrect: Most US media sources follow the subject's preference, and Wikipedia does as well. — PublicAmpers&(main account • talk • block) 14:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- And you have an unwritten Constitution, too. Yes, we have legal names, enshrined in gov't. records. One has to go to court to change it. Sca (talk) 14:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- According to a popular online encyclopedia, Manning has, by the loud public declaration, changed her name - David Gerard (talk) 14:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- That's to be decided by sourcing, not by us. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- a popular online encyclopedia is not the law, nor is it how the law is applied. As noted by Manning herself, official correspondance must continue to be sent to 'Bradley Manning'.
"officially Bradley"
~The title says it all. He is Bradley, a "he", and he will be until (if?) he subjects to the treatments and legally changes his gender.
- Can you provide a source for the relevant law? AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can you provide evidence that "Bradley" is now being broadly referred to as "Chelsea"? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 14:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- At least according to my understanding, gender is a social construct. Changing sex would be a different issue -- and one that would involve government recognition. CaseyPenk (talk) 14:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- He has not changed his name legally by deed poll or otherwise and he has is not legally a woman either. For all practical purposes, he is Bradley Manning and male, regardless of his claims. His gender and subsequent naming issues is notable in his personal life, but it is not official and not yet valid. As for "social constructs", people do not get to decide their genders. Manning has a disorder which essentially places him in the wrong body. "he" and "she" typically refer to sex. Azirus (talk) 15:09, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
We should not make controversial page moves without consensus
In the long run I agree with moving the page to Chelsea (per WP:IDENTITY), but in the short term we need to discuss before we make such a drastic change. We have policies for a reason. The only acceptable reason to move a page immediately is if there is little or no controversy over the proposed move. If there is controversy, it needs to be discussed first before the change takes place. This change was made without extensive consultation. WP:IDENTITY does not advocate immediate changes if there is controversy.
If there is considerable controversy over a page move it should not be made immediately. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:00, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Well, the advocates have been itching for this for many months, so to them it wasn't "immediately". ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 15:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Hmm, I don't think there bad intentions on the part of people advocating for the move. I think people who want the page to be Chelsea in the long run do in fact have good intentions. I think there's a policy mix-up going on though. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Can we at least try for consensus through a vote? Moncrief (talk) 15:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Nearly every news source under the sun is still referring to him as Bradley Manning - the only ones that aren't tend to be gossipy chat shows (like today show) and should NOT be used as reliable sources. 94.31.32.30 (talk) 15:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Incorrect, as noted above - in fact, over the course of today, I've been seeing online media changing their pronoun usage - David Gerard (talk) 15:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
She
I understand and appreciate transgender people. However, Manning is not a "she" automatically. This is a tough issue, but I think it's rash to change the whole article to feminine pronouns before he's had the first bit of hormone therapy. Anyone agree with me? What am I missing here? Moncrief (talk) 15:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- I am not an expert on trans* issues, but I think Chelsea would prefer to be referred to as "she" in any and all circumstances. CaseyPenk (talk) 11:04 am, Today (UTC−4)
- It is also poor to second-guess someone's gender with an arbitrary standard. LFaraone 15:06, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Excuse me? Moncrief (talk) 15:07, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- The issue here is identity, not genitalia or enocrinology. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Identity does not depend on hormone levels. LudicrousTripe (talk) 15:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- (edit conflict × 2) "before he's had the first bit of hormone therapy"; who are we to say when the person's gender is "really" changed. LFaraone 15:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- It is not clear what Wikipedia practice, MOS:IDENTITY or WP:BLP involves a measure of hormone levels. Please do clarify. (I don't mean to offend, but your statement reads very like you're working this out for yourself for the very first time; it's a somewhat nuanced issue, but Wikipedia rules and practice on transgender issues are actually pretty clear.) - David Gerard (talk) 15:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
- Gender identity ≠ real gender. Azirus (talk) 15:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
I would have thought it appropriate to refer to Chelsea as 'she' in her timeline from now onwards, but 'he' for historical facts. Saying 'She was a gay man', for example, and mixing up historical quotes referring to 'him' right next to referring to 'she' could be confusing or misleading - especially when her gender identity was, at the time referred to in the text, either male, uncertain or undeclared. --151.230.243.44 (talk) 15:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
Requested move
![]() | It has been proposed in this section that Chelsea Manning be renamed and moved to Bradley Manning. A bot will list this discussion on the requested moves current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil. Please use {{subst:requested move}} . Do not use {{requested move/dated}} directly. |
Chelsea Manning → Bradley Manning – I am requesting that this page be moved back to its previous title of Bradley Manning so a thorough discussion can take place.
Wikipedia:Requested moves makes it clear that the "Requesting controversial and potentially controversial moves" process should be used in the following circumstance:
- "Use this process if there is any reason to believe a move would be contested."
Additionally, Wikipedia:Article titles states the following:
- "Any potentially controversial proposal to change a title should be advertised at Wikipedia:Requested moves, and consensus reached before any change is made."
Note that my move request is not a comment on what the page should eventually be called (I personally believe Chelsea is the proper title), but rather a recognition of the short-term term need to follow policy. CaseyPenk (talk) 15:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
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