Talk:Nina Dobrev: Difference between revisions
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:::::What it all comes to as best as I can tell is that citizenship is the only criterion that would justify inclusion of "Bulgarian" in the lead sentence. "Nationality" can mean citizen, race, or ethnicity but it's only "citizen" that would meet the criterion for inclusion. We do not as of yet know which of these she meant. The only other possibility I see is if "national resident" or "national" means something different than what I understand but so far that point has not been established. [[User:SQGibbon|SQGibbon]] ([[User talk:SQGibbon|talk]]) 17:55, 3 December 2013 (UTC) |
:::::What it all comes to as best as I can tell is that citizenship is the only criterion that would justify inclusion of "Bulgarian" in the lead sentence. "Nationality" can mean citizen, race, or ethnicity but it's only "citizen" that would meet the criterion for inclusion. We do not as of yet know which of these she meant. The only other possibility I see is if "national resident" or "national" means something different than what I understand but so far that point has not been established. [[User:SQGibbon|SQGibbon]] ([[User talk:SQGibbon|talk]]) 17:55, 3 December 2013 (UTC) |
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::::::Oh, Oh, Oh! That discussion is just infinite! What mean "She not mean nationality. Maybe she mean ethnicity, or race, or nation...". Just unbelievable! In tweet The Nina's answer is absolutely clear "Nationality - Bulgarian". Your interpretations about nationality are non-sens. What you think that Bulgarian is previous nationality? From where you know that she has Canadian citizenship? I do not see a source, which confirm that theory. Actually her tweet show that Bulgarian are present nationality. And more - according to Constitution of Bulgaria (26(3)) Bulgarian is her present nationality, because she can not lose her Bulgarian citizenship. By Law she is Bulgarian from everywhere! OK, you say that Constitution is original research and cannot use here and search a source, where is saying "Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian". And now we have these sources (absolutely sure and relable sources), which prove that. Before, when you said she is Canadian, you said "nationality and citizenship are one thing". Now we have these sources but I see opinions like "She not mean nationality", "Bulgarian newspapers going to report people born in Bulgaria as Bulgarians". In previous comment you talking about the POV-pushing and nationalism like occurrence in Wikipedia. About that you are right and we often see that unpleasantly phenomenon. Many of comments here prove that here exist some kind of Pro-Canadian POV-pushing. Look at all Talk page! Here are presenting more than these 2 sources. All of these sources - books, sites, newspapers - said that Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian and no one that is Canadian. What you want more? It is not honestly by me. The fact that I edit articles related to Bulgaria doesn't mean that I'm nationalist. I'm against nationalism and every harmful ideology. [[User:JanHusCz|JanHusCz]] ([[User talk:JanHusCz|talk]]) 20:19, 3 December 2013 (UTC) |
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Last name
How do you pronounce her last name? is this how you pronounce it? "Do-breve", "Do-breave", "Do-brev", how do you pronounce it? [[ Demon Hunter Rules ]] (talk) 23:08, 11 August 2008 (UTC)
- She pronounces it like it rhymes with cobra. See here or here. dissolvetalk 00:38, 12 August 2008 (UTC)
- So her last name uses the word "Dough" in the beginning? [[ Demon Hunter Rules ]] (talk) 17:03, 13 August 2008 (UTC)
- It's a typical Bulgarian name. Bulgarians pronounce it ['do-bɾev]. The O is short and accented, pronounced much like the o in the English word "only". The E is short, not accented and pronounced like the e in "help". The R is pronounced like in Spanish, Italian, Russian, etc. The V in the end of the name tends to lose a bit of its sound, to the point that it sounds somewhere between V and F (note that Dobrev is the version of the name given to males. Dobreva is the version for females, where the V is fully pronounced, because it gets sounded by the following vowel A). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.82.106 (talk) 15:38, 5 November 2010 (UTC)
Her actual birthname is Dobreva. Dobreva is a typical bulgarian name, she changed for her career. Here's a source: http://www.tv.com/people/nina-dobrev/ Please put that in the article that is important. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.178.184.93 (talk) 15:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC) Besides, every other Wikipedia page in a different language says that her birthname is Dobreva. Please put that in! That is improtant information!
- Then provide a reliable source. Tv.com is not, as it's also user submitted content. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:54, 7 February 2012 (UTC)
Dobreva is correct, because she is woman. Dobrev is male name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.216.79 (talk) 19:57, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Repo! The Genetic Opera?
Under Dobrev's filmography, it says she was in Repo! The Genetic Opera in 2006 as a teen Zydrate addict. Repo! came out in 2008 and I haven't found any information to verify that she was in it (it's not on her IMDb page or on the cast list for Repo!). That should be deleted. She is the best actress of our generation.
- She could have been in the cast of the stage version of Repo! The Genetic Opera, because only this makes sense - the movie wasn't even out in 2006. Can anybody research this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.86.82.106 (talk) 12:39, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
The movie should be listed in the 2008 section and not as the first one in the list. It does´nt make sence when it starts with 2008 Repo and then continues with 2006. That should be changed! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.36.135 (talk) 15:53, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
There was a 2006 short film version of Repo The Genetic Opera. It was later redone into the 2008 movie version. Here is the IMDB address for the 2006 short version. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0945586/ It has her listed as a cast member playing the Teenage Zytrate Addict — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tikkiblue (talk • contribs) 08:20, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Ian Somerhalder
It is very obvious that she is dating her co-star Ian Somerhalder. There were spotted in Paris together holding hands and stuff. Their mothers were even with them. There are various internet articles with the pictures. http://hollywoodcrush.mtv.com/2011/05/25/nina-dobrev-ian-somerhalder-in-paris/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.231.210.60 (talk) 22:10, 25 May 2011 (UTC)
And now they confirmed that they are a couple for a long time now at the latest CW Fall Premiere Party. How much do you guys still need to wait to put that in the article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.231.208.127 (talk) 14:06, 13 September 2011 (UTC)
- Then be not afraid and put it in. The page is not edit-protected. --Ebyabe (talk) 17:32, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- As long as it is sourced properly. Nymf hideliho! 17:39, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- Agree, definitely. --Ebyabe (talk) 17:49, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
- As long as it is sourced properly. Nymf hideliho! 17:39, 15 September 2011 (UTC)
Why do some editors prefer using digitalspy.ie as a source [1] [2] ? Gimmetoo (talk) 23:22, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe they think b/c it's a secondary source it's better? Maybe they don't like US Weekly? I changed the Somerhalder one back to match what's here. Let's keep an eye on it and if it's changed, we'll see what we can find out. --‖ Ebyabe talk - Repel All Borders ‖ 23:40, 15 October 2011 (UTC)
Personal life section
Apparently Dobrev is dating Ian Somerhalder. Isn't that relationship a part of her personal life, rather than her career? Antique Rose — Drop me a line 03:04, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
- It is related to her personal life, but I definitely don't think that one line merits an entirely new section. We can leave it in career until there is more information to add to personal life since she's dating her co-star. Ryvenn (talk) 04:34, 25 November 2011 (UTC)
- A separate, standalone section risks undue emphasis. The content is significant mainly because they work on the same show - if they didn't it might not merit a mention at all. Gimmetoo (talk) 13:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
- I agree; as is outlined in WP:STRUCTURE, unnecessary section forking affects the neutrality and flow of the article. The size of the section is also insufficient, and should be around 70 words longer before it merits being added. Ryvenn (talk) 23:34, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
- And so where do we put it? It's not related to her career. What about Early life (it's not so early, though). --Chiya92 13:28, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- Actually, no it can't go into career. Because, well, it's not part of her career. Yes, giving its own section is a problem. However, there is a way to solve it: combine "Early life" with "Personal life". Then you don't have an undue problem, and the information isn't falsely implies to be part of her career. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:40, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
- This information is significant mainly because the two people work together on a show. Such info does fit well in the context of a discussion of that work. There are articles where such "personal" info is placed in a sequential context within "career" accomplishments. However, I'm not opposed to the "early and personal life" approach, even if it wouldn't be my first choice. Gimmetoo (talk) 23:47, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
- I'm concerned that you went ahead with the change before consensus was reached; Gimmetoo and I raised valid points for why the relationship is relevant to her career, and I feel like that was ignored. I disagree with the naming of the section; what as listed as her early life should stay in that section. Instead, I think that we should arrange the article similarly to the Lindsay Lohan page. Please make sure that all concerns have been addressed before making another change, though. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ryvenn (talk • contribs) 05:11, 29 November 2011 (UTC)
- I agree; as is outlined in WP:STRUCTURE, unnecessary section forking affects the neutrality and flow of the article. The size of the section is also insufficient, and should be around 70 words longer before it merits being added. Ryvenn (talk) 23:34, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
- A separate, standalone section risks undue emphasis. The content is significant mainly because they work on the same show - if they didn't it might not merit a mention at all. Gimmetoo (talk) 13:17, 26 November 2011 (UTC)
Middle name
I removed her middle name entirely from the article. The only source was tv.com, which like imdb isn't really a reliable source for biographical info. If a reliable source can be found, one way or another, then it can be added back. But better not having it at all, than being inaccurate, per WP:BLP. Unfortunately, I expect this may lead to edit warring, since there seems to be such a fervid interest in this detail. But we'll cross that bridge, and all that. --‖ Ebyabe talk - Border Town ‖ 18:54, 8 December 2011 (UTC)
- This issue has been around a long time. See User_talk:Blackbirdg. "Reliable" sources are difficult to find. In the first hundred links in [3] and [4], there seem to be two that might be construed as possibly "reliable" for the entertainment industry. One has K [5] and one has C [6]. Gimmetoo (talk) 20:30, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
- Maybe the middle name is not for sure but her actual last name is Dobreva. When she became an actress she changed it to Dobrev. (Like her Co-Star Paul Wesley, his actual name is Wasilewski) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.141.241 (talk) 23:19, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
- Then please provide a reliable source for that. Qwyrxian (talk) 03:44, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
- Maybe the middle name is not for sure but her actual last name is Dobreva. When she became an actress she changed it to Dobrev. (Like her Co-Star Paul Wesley, his actual name is Wasilewski) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.141.241 (talk) 23:19, 20 January 2012 (UTC)
There: http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2400045/ it says Nina Constantinova Dobreva. And isn't it a littel obvious that her name is Dobreva? She is from Bulgaria and Dobrev is not a bulgarian name but Dobreva is and I read about her name-change so many times that it's a common knowlegde that her last name is acutally Dobrava. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.52.144.21 (talk) 21:29, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- This sort of info on imdb is user-submitted just like here. It has no value as a source. The middle name has been a clear source of contention and so needs a source. When people looked for sources, none showed up for the last name either. Gimmetoo (talk) 21:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
- I found an article written in cyrillic script which says "Nina Dobreva" (Нина Добрева) here. Don't know if it's a source --Chiya92 13:43, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
Here, after "From Fell's Church to Mystic Falls", there are the cast bios, where it says "Nina Costantinova Dobreva". --Chiya92 11:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)
Magazine covers
The following table was added to the article. It's not in English, and it's also not sourced. Holding here if someone wants to work on it. Gimmetoo (talk) 02:58, 25 May 2012 (UTC)
Publication | Date | Country |
---|---|---|
Nylon Magazine | Febrero, 2012 | Estados Unidos |
Seventeen Magazine | Abril, 2010 | Estados Unidos |
Seventeen Fitness ( Special Issue) | Febrero, 2011 | Estados Unidos |
Nylon Magazine | Febrero, 2010 | Estados Unidos |
Girl’s Life Magazine | Octubre/ Noviembre 2010 | Estados Unidos |
Saturday Night Magazine | Septiembre, 2010 | Estados Unidos |
Seventeen Magazine | Enero, 2011 | México |
Flare Magazine | Febrero, 2011 | Cánada |
Teen Vogue | Abril, 2011 | Estados Unidos |
ELLE Girl Magazine | Diciembre, 2010 | Rusia |
TV Guide Magazine | Octubre, 2010 | Estados Unidos |
Twist Magazine | Mayo, 2011 | Polonia |
Vse Zvezdy Magazine | Octubre, 2010 | Rusia |
Joy Magazine | Septiembre, 2011 | Alemania |
Twist Magazine | Septiembre, 2011 | Polonia |
Bravo Magazine | Agosto, 2011 | Polonia |
Glamour Magazine | Agosto, 2011 | Bulgaria |
Candy Magazine | Mayo, 2011 | Filipinas |
Go Girl Magazine | Febrero, 2010 | Estados Unidos |
Capricho Magazine | Octubre, 2011 | Brasil |
Cosmo Girl | Septiembre, 2011 | Turquia |
Jezebel Magazine | Junio, 2010 | Estados Unidos |
Joy Magazine | Septiembre, 2011 | Bulgaria |
Joy Magazine | Enero, 2012 | Serbia |
TV Guide Magazine | Julio, 2010 | Estados Unidos |
TV Guide Magazine | Enero, 2010 | Estados Unidos |
Seventeen Magazine | Agosto, 2010 | Malasia |
Seventeen Magazine | Mayo, 2010 | Singapur |
Seventeen Magazine | Mayo, 2010 | Sudafrica |
Girlfriend Magazine | Mayo, 2010 | Australia |
Elle Magazine | Noviembre, 2009 | Bulgaria |
I have translated and sourced the table but I haven't sorted it yet. I'm sorry but especially the foreign magazine covers are hard to source and these were all I could find. I'm not sure the table is relevant for the article but I did it anyway.
Publication | Date | Country | Source |
---|---|---|---|
Nylon Magazine | February, 2012 | United States | [1] |
Seventeen Magazine | April, 2010 | United States | [2] |
Seventeen Fitness ( Special Issue) | February, 2011 | United States | [3] |
Nylon Magazine | February, 2010 | United States | [4] |
Girl’s Life Magazine | October/November 2010 | United States | [5] |
Saturday Night Magazine | September, 2010 | United States | [6] |
Seventeen Magazine | January, 2011 | Mexico | [7] |
Flare Magazine | February, 2011 | Canada | [8] |
Teen Vogue | April, 2011 | United States | [9] |
ELLE Girl Magazine | December, 2010 | Russia | [10] |
TV Guide Magazine | October, 2010 | United States | [11] |
Twist Magazine | May, 2011 | Poland | [12] |
Vse Zvezdy Magazine | October, 2010 | Russia | [13] |
Joy Magazine | September, 2011 | Germany | [14] |
Twist Magazine | September, 2011 | Poland | [15] |
Bravo Magazine | August, 2011 | Poland | [16] |
Glamour Magazine | Agosto, 2011 | Bulgaria | [17] |
Candy Magazine | May, 2011 | Phillipinnes | [18] |
Go Girl Magazine | February, 2010 | United States | [19] |
Capricho Magazine | October, 2011 | Brasil | [20] |
Cosmo Girl | September, 2011 | Turkey | [21] |
Jezebel Magazine | June, 2010 | United States | [22] |
Joy Magazine | September, 2011 | Bulgaria | [23] |
Joy Magazine | January, 2012 | Serbia | [24] |
TV Guide Magazine | July, 2010 | United States | [25] |
TV Guide Magazine | January, 2010 | United States | [26] |
Seventeen Magazine | August, 2010 | Malaysia | [27] |
Seventeen Magazine | May, 2010 | Singapore | [28] |
Seventeen Magazine | May, 2010 | South Africa | [29] |
Girlfriend Magazine | May, 2010 | Australia | [30] |
Elle Magazine | November, 2009 | Bulgaria | [31] |
References
- ^ "february nylon cover: nina dobrev". Nylon Magazine. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev Seventeen Cover". Seventeen Magazine. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev's Seventeen Fitness Cover Shows Off Her Beach-Ready Body". Hollywood Crush MTV. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "love sucks, Up all night with the cast of Vampire Diaries.". Nylon Magazine. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "October/November 2010". Girl's Life Magazine. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "The Vampire Diaries star Nina Dobrev". Saturday Night Magazine. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev – Seventeen Magazine Mexico Jan 2011". Vybz Magazine. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "'Vampire Diaries' Star Nina Dobrev Admits 'I'm Actually Slowly Becoming A Vampire'". Hollywood Crush MTV. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "nina dobrev's teen vogue cover shoot photos". Teen Vogue Magazine. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev Elle Girl Russia December 2010". Nina Dobrev News. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "TV Guide Magazine Oct 25-31 2010". Nina Dobrev Network. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev, Twist May 2011". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Vse Zvezdy Magazine [Russia (4 October 2010)"]. magazine-covers.lucywho.com. Retrieved July, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev, Joy September 2011". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Twist Magazine [Poland (September 2011)"]. magazine-covers.lucywho.com. Retrieved July, 2012
- ^ "Ian Somerhalder, Nina Dobrev, Nina Dobrev and Ian Somerhalder, Bravo 02 August 2011". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev, Glamour August 2011". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev is on the Cover of Our May Issue". Candy Magazine. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Go Girl Magazine [United States (February 2010)"]. magazine-covers.lucywho.com. Retrieved July, 2012
- ^ "Ian Somerhalder, Nina Dobrev, Nina Dobrev and Ian Somerhalder, Capricho 23 October 2011". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Ian Somerhalder, Paul Wesley, Nina Dobrev, Nina Dobrev and Paul Wesley, Nina Dobrev and Ian Somerhalder, Cosmo Girl September 2011". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev Interview For Jezebel Magazine". Gossip Teen. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina in 'Joy' Magazine,Bulgaria,September Issue 2011". Fanpop. Retrieved July 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev, Joy January 2012". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Ian Somerhalder, Paul Wesley, Nina Dobrev, Nina Dobrev and Paul Wesley, Nina Dobrev and Ian Somerhalder, TV Guide July 2010". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Ian Somerhalder, Paul Wesley, Nina Dobrev, The Vampire Diaries, Nina Dobrev and Paul Wesley, Nina Dobrev and Ian Somerhalder, TV Guide 25 January 2010". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev, Seventeen August 2010". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev, Seventeen May 2010". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev, Seventeen May 2010". whosdatedwho.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "THE VAMPIRE DIARIES FEATURED IN AUSTRALIA’S GIRLFRIEND MAGAZINE". Vampire-Diaries.net. Retrieved July 26, 2012
- ^ "Nina Dobrev Elle Bulgaria November 2009". magxone.com. Retrieved July 26, 2012
-teammathi 12:19, 26 July 2012 (CET)
You Got That Light
In 2007 she had a speacial appearence in the music video You Got That Light by Wade Allain-Marcus and David Baum. You can watch it on YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k5jjmizKbog&feature=player_embedded#! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.142.90 (talk) 20:14, 25 July 2012 (UTC)
Bulgaria
Please stop adding Bulgarian to the lede or the infobox. It is mentioned in the infobox and Early life section that she was born in Bulgaria. I suggest that we semi-protect the page for a while. teammathi 10:20, 26 July 2012 (CET)
Bulgarian name
I suggest that we only mention her Bulgarian name in the infobox since that's what her parents called her when she was born. Or we could add it to "native name" but I don't think that we should put both names in one section. teammathi 17:48, 28 July 2012 (CET)
- I agree. That would be in accordance with wiki rules. --Garik 11 (talk) 21:09, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- With which ideo of the both do you agree? teammathi 0:43, 29 July 2012 (CET)
- I tried using the "native name" field, but that doesn't seem to work well... Deryck C. 23:07, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- I changed it. teammathi 12:04, 29 July 2012 (CET)
- I tried using the "native name" field, but that doesn't seem to work well... Deryck C. 23:07, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
- With which ideo of the both do you agree? teammathi 0:43, 29 July 2012 (CET)
Birth Name
She just mentioned in an interview that her birth name is Nikolina Dobreva and Nina comes from the first two letters and the two last ones so it woks as some sort of nickname and her actual first name is Nikolina. Here is the interview to watch: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdKEcmMFWKg — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.231.189.209 (talk) 18:50, 2 October 2012 (UTC)
Middle name
Does anyone know if her middle name is Constantinova or Konstantinova? In Bulgarian the letter c is the same as k so the Bulgarian spelling is correct either way. Various websites have it with either spelling, although there does seem to be more with it spelt with a c. Anyone know?
- According to the official transliteration, it should be K. --Chiya92 12:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)
- But the English equivalent is stated as "c as in "cat""
- That's an example of the pronunciation. (notice how for У у it says оо as in "tool") --Chiya92 09:16, 10 October 2012 (UTC)
Edit request on 11 October 2012
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Nina Dobrev CAN'T speak French FLUENTLY. She knows how to say "hello" "how are you" and "no" that's not fluent so please get it erase from her page. JessDddd (talk) 22:34, 11 October 2012 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 06:21, 12 October 2012 (UTC)
- In the Early Life section of the article it is written that "She speaks fluent French, English, and Bulgarian." But in the first reference from the article "Calhoun, Crissy (2010). "Cast Bios: Nina Dobrev". Love You To Death: The Unofficial Companion to The Vampire Diaries. Ecw Pr." on page 26 Nina Dobrev says "I definitely am bilingual." Could someone please explain to me how she can be bilingual and speak fluent three languages at the same time.Change this to Bulgarian and English in this order since Bulgarian is her native language and should be put first and besides alphabetically looks better--Dvrt09 (talk) 03:55, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- This article says she speaks three languages. --Chiya92 09:52, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- Then we have contradicting sources.The first source ("Calhoun, Crissy (2010). "Cast Bios: Nina Dobrev". Love You To Death") represents what Nina Dobrev says, the second source represents what Nylonmag says.But how do we decide which source is more reliable?! --Dvrt09 (talk) 11:16, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- And why the only source used in the first paragraph of the section Early Life is (""Calhoun, Crissy (2010). "Cast Bios: Nina Dobrev". Love You To Death: The Unofficial Companion to The Vampire Diaries. Ecw Pr.") which as I said contradict some of the information there. --Dvrt09 (talk) 11:43, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- This article says she speaks three languages. --Chiya92 09:52, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
- In the Early Life section of the article it is written that "She speaks fluent French, English, and Bulgarian." But in the first reference from the article "Calhoun, Crissy (2010). "Cast Bios: Nina Dobrev". Love You To Death: The Unofficial Companion to The Vampire Diaries. Ecw Pr." on page 26 Nina Dobrev says "I definitely am bilingual." Could someone please explain to me how she can be bilingual and speak fluent three languages at the same time.Change this to Bulgarian and English in this order since Bulgarian is her native language and should be put first and besides alphabetically looks better--Dvrt09 (talk) 03:55, 20 April 2013 (UTC)
Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Protection has expired, so I'm closing the edit request itself. Please continue to work toward WP:CONSENSUS on these discussions and keep the WP:BLP policy in mind! Thanks, --ElHef (Meep?) 01:38, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
Edit request on 4 March 2013
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Could you write in addition that she is a canadian actress that her origins are bulgarian 46.10.92.10 (talk) 22:10, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also, where in the text would you like this to be inserted? HueSatLum 23:01, 4 March 2013 (UTC)
Edit request on 2 April 2013
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Please change ",is a Canadian actress and model." to ",is a Bulgarian-Canadian actress and model" because http://www.imdb.com/name/nm2400045/bio and I think there are a lot more sources that will also back it up. She is a dual national not a sole Canadian one! 89.253.148.244 (talk) 20:01, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
Not done:. Been over this already. See the archive and WP:OPENPARA. Nymf talk to me 21:05, 2 April 2013 (UTC)
I did check it out but I still do not understand why all the other wikipedias in different languages have her as dual national only the english one is keeping it strictly Canadian ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.253.148.244 (talk) 19:03, 7 April 2013 (UTC)
- No one has ever provided a reliable source that verifies she has dual nationality--IMDB is only reliable for things like cast lists, never for BLP info. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:47, 8 April 2013 (UTC)
- I find this very biased.She was born in Bulgaria and her birth certificate is bulgarian which means she is automatically granted with bulgarian citizenship as a native citizen!!For your information you can't leave or enter a country without having a passport!!And she was living in Canada as a bulgarian immigrant until she aquired canadian citizenship as well.This means dual-citizenship.The only way she could lose her bulgarian citizenship is if she cancel it herself with the appropriate documents in the bulgarian ambassy.If you have sources which state that she cancelled her bulgarian citizenship please feel free to share it.Until then writing that she has only canadian citizenship without sources to back it up is extremely biased and one-sided.--Dvrt09 (talk) 15:17, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- Find a reliable source that states that she has Bulgarian citizenship. WP:BLP explicitly states that we may never use government documents like birth certificates as reliable sources, because we have no way to verify the authenticity of the document; we are also not legal experts who know the rules on when and where dual nationality is legal. And your last point is simply ludicrous: no one ever has to find sources to prove a negative. The WP:BURDEN is always on someone who wants to add information. Until we have a reliable sources which states that she is Bulgarian, it cannot be in the article. As soon as we have such a source, we can include it. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- Show me a reliable source which claims that she has only canadian citizenship.Now you have to prove a positive.Otherwise this article is misleading!!--Dvrt09 (talk) 16:17, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- The WP:BURDEN is on the person adding information, i.e. you. Nymf talk to me 16:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- This article implies that she has only one canadian citizenship!!I asked for the reliable source which states this.--Dvrt09 (talk) 17:06, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- The article does not imply anything in regard to what her status in Bulgaria is. Here are the facts: she left the country at the age of two, and has been living in Canada ever since. If she gained citizenship before leaving Bulgaria, you would need a source stating this. Unless you do, this discussion is pointless. Nymf talk to me 17:19, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- From where do you think she got her birth name Николина Константинова Добрева that is written in the article?!Or maybe canadians use bulgarian names and the cyrillic alphabet?!Anyway the fact is that in this article it is written that she has only one nationality-canadian without providing reliable sources to prove this.If you want consensus you should write that her nationality is disputable and to add bulgarian as well until some reliable sources are presented that she has only one nationality.It sounds fair to me.--Dvrt09 (talk) 17:52, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- On Lopez Tonight(17-11-2010) Nina Dobrev said herself that she is bulgarian.This is the youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FDQ9aEGZHp0 --Dvrt09 (talk) 00:36, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- Sofia News Agency(www.novinite.com) wrote about Nina "Bulgarian-Canadian actress".This is the link to this site: http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=122426 --Dvrt09 (talk) 10:20, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- Another article from Sofia News Agency(www.novinite.com): http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=126487 --Dvrt09 (talk) 10:50, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- This is reference N:7 from the wikipage of Nina Dobrev:"^ Finke, Nikki (2011-04-15). "Nina Dobrev Goes From 'Vampire Diaries' To 'The Perks Of Being A Wallflower'". Deadline.com. Retrieved 2011-04-17."This is the link: http://www.deadline.com/2011/04/123303/ In this article it is written again: "Bulgarian-Canadian actress" --Dvrt09 (talk) 12:45, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- Another article from OnePressNews which says: "Nationality Bulgarian-Canadian".This is the link: http://www.onepressnews.com/2012-06-30-nina-dobrev --Dvrt09 (talk) 19:37, 18 April 2013 (UTC)
- I think the first article from novinite.com is a reliable source, as Dobrev claims to be Bulgarian. --Chiya92 13:18, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
- Thank you @Chiya92 for your understanding.I also think that the first article is really strong and reliable source since it is an official interview with Nina Dobrev where she personally states that she is proud of being Bulgarian.I think that if we write in her wikipage only canadian this would be extremely biased and one-sided. --Dvrt09 (talk) 15:45, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
- "Everyone who knows me knows I am Bulgarian and that I am proud of it!"-Nina Dobrev for Sofia News Agency(www.novinite.com): http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=122426 --Dvrt09 (talk) 15:55, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
- I think the first article from novinite.com is a reliable source, as Dobrev claims to be Bulgarian. --Chiya92 13:18, 19 April 2013 (UTC)
- The article does not imply anything in regard to what her status in Bulgaria is. Here are the facts: she left the country at the age of two, and has been living in Canada ever since. If she gained citizenship before leaving Bulgaria, you would need a source stating this. Unless you do, this discussion is pointless. Nymf talk to me 17:19, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- This article implies that she has only one canadian citizenship!!I asked for the reliable source which states this.--Dvrt09 (talk) 17:06, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- The WP:BURDEN is on the person adding information, i.e. you. Nymf talk to me 16:55, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- Show me a reliable source which claims that she has only canadian citizenship.Now you have to prove a positive.Otherwise this article is misleading!!--Dvrt09 (talk) 16:17, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- Find a reliable source that states that she has Bulgarian citizenship. WP:BLP explicitly states that we may never use government documents like birth certificates as reliable sources, because we have no way to verify the authenticity of the document; we are also not legal experts who know the rules on when and where dual nationality is legal. And your last point is simply ludicrous: no one ever has to find sources to prove a negative. The WP:BURDEN is always on someone who wants to add information. Until we have a reliable sources which states that she is Bulgarian, it cannot be in the article. As soon as we have such a source, we can include it. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:50, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
- I find this very biased.She was born in Bulgaria and her birth certificate is bulgarian which means she is automatically granted with bulgarian citizenship as a native citizen!!For your information you can't leave or enter a country without having a passport!!And she was living in Canada as a bulgarian immigrant until she aquired canadian citizenship as well.This means dual-citizenship.The only way she could lose her bulgarian citizenship is if she cancel it herself with the appropriate documents in the bulgarian ambassy.If you have sources which state that she cancelled her bulgarian citizenship please feel free to share it.Until then writing that she has only canadian citizenship without sources to back it up is extremely biased and one-sided.--Dvrt09 (talk) 15:17, 17 April 2013 (UTC)
Template:BLP noticeboard
Not done: The page's protection level has changed since this request was placed. You should now be able to edit the page yourself. If you still seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Protection has expired, so I'm closing the edit request itself. Please continue to work toward WP:CONSENSUS on these discussions and keep the WP:BLP policy in mind! Thanks, --ElHef (Meep?) 01:40, 30 April 2013 (UTC)
- Since I proved my point at the BLP noticeboard I will add here my main arguments and sources:"Saying "she is Bulgarian" -- using a source where she says "I am Bulgarian" -- is not prohibited WP:OR."Everyone who knows me knows I am Bulgarian and that I am proud of it!"-Nina Dobrev for Sofia News Agency(www.novinite.com): http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=122426 Nina became famous with "The Vampire Diaries" show where she plays the role of Katherine Pierce who was chosen to be a Bulgarian lady because of Nina's ethnicity http://xfinity.comcast.net/blogs/tv/2011/03/03/vampire-diaries-nina-dobrev-sinks-her-teeth-into-dual-role/ .Nina is notable for playing the role of "the only Bulgarian character on American television(Katherine Pierce)".Her ethnicity is quite relevant to her career and notability which means that WP:MOSBIO is satisfied." Also I would like to remind that: "Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources...NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it."The source used as a reference in the opening paragraph of Nina's wiki page is Crissy Calhoun's book "Love You To Death: The Unofficial Companion to The Vampire Diaries".Well one of the sources used in Crissy Calhoun's book, is indeed Sara Bibel from xfinity.comcast.net .If Sara Bibel is not good enough then you should discard Crissy Calhoun as well since she uses Sara's articles as reliable sources.Besides exactly this article(http://xfinity.comcast.net/blogs/tv/2011/03/03/vampire-diaries-nina-dobrev-sinks-her-teeth-into-dual-role/) is used as a source in Crissy Calhoun's book "Love You to Death - Season 2: The Unofficial Companion to The Vampire Diaries":http://books.google.bg/books?id=NqAcT09XJhUC&pg=PT393&dq=Sara+Bibel%2Bcomcast&hl=bg&sa=X&ei=Z-mDUa2DGM_OsgbgmoHwAg&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAA If my source is good enough for Crissy Calhoun's book then I don't see a logical reason why it wouldn't be good enough for wikipedia which uses Crissy Calhoun's books as reliable sources in BLP articles.Also xfinity.comcast.net is not a no name,personal or a fan site; it belongs to Comcast Corporation-owner of NBCUniversal which makes the content published there more likely to be true.My source is stronger then 90% of the sources used in BLP articles and the fact that it is also published in a book speaks well enough for itself."Born in Bulgaria" does NOT equal Bulgarian(ethnicity) since there are other ethnic groups who are born and live there(armenians,russians etc.).Refusing to write in the article that she is also Bulgarian(ethnicity) despite all the sources and Nina's own words is nothing more than misleading the readers intentionally. --Dvrt09 (talk) 10:27, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
- You "proved" nothing at BLP/N -- other than to harm your own position. I think you should read what others wrote there. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:20, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
- Then why are you not addressing my main arguments and sources there?!Maybe because I proved that my sources are reliable enough or maybe because you were too busy attacking me personally?!The fact that some editors need to use false accusations to get rid of me speaks well enough for itself.Too bad that the false accusations failed...Anyway it is not important for me whether this article will be changed or not.What is important for me is that I exposed the fact that you can find everything in wikipedia but not neutral point of view.It is not surprising why wikipedia is notorious for being highly unreliable.Besides I have better things to do and I will not argue with people who don't respect even their own rules... --Dvrt09 (talk) 13:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
- The article has been changed, and now accurately reflects exactly what the sources you provided verify--that she is, at least, Bulgarian by birth. You have not provided a source verifying that she has Bulgarian citizenship. Now, you may not like our rules, but don't claim we're not following them. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:45, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- The article is NOT changed.Where is "Bulgarian by birth" and where are my sources?!I never said that I don't like the rules, I said that some editors are above the rules and don't respect them!My version of Nina's wiki page was in accordance with WP:OR, WP:MOSBIO and WP:OPENPARA.According to WP:OPENPARA "Ethnicity can be emphasized in the opening if it is relevant to the subject's notability."Nina is notable for playing the role of "the only Bulgarian character on American television(Katherine Pierce)" which shows that her ethnicity is relevant to her career as an actress.My source is published in Crissy Calhoun's book.According to all necessary wiki rules I am right.It is a fact that some editors disrespect the rules only to push their Canadian POV.I am NOT the one who is deleting sourced information which is in accordance with WP:MOSBIO... --Dvrt09 (talk) 09:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- The very first sentence says "born in Bulgaria". The first sentence of "Early Life" repeats that and expands on it. The fact that one fan-book happens to mention the fact is not enough to establish that it is relevant to her career as an actress. Books like that don't always even qualify as reliable sources, much less for the very high standard required by WP:BLP. The consensus here is clear. And consensus does not always go the way you like. For instance, I was just on the "losing side" of a debate about how BLP and N interact with NOTNEWS; I believed, and still believe, that we have absolutely no business having WP articles on 99.99% of breaking news stories, especially crime stories, while the story is still ongoing. But consensus was against me. And so, I just walk away from that article and move on with my life. Do I still think they 90+% who weighed in against me were wrong? Sure. But not enough to try to follow through with further dispute resolution. If you want to do that here, go ahead and do so; I'll participate in a DRN discussion, mediation, whatever. But I don't see a reason to continue the debate here. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- "The very first sentence says "born in Bulgaria"."
- -"Born in Bulgaria" does NOT equal Bulgarian(ethnicity) since there are other ethnic groups who are born and live there-armenians,russians and they don't identify themselves as bulgarians.
- The very first sentence says "born in Bulgaria". The first sentence of "Early Life" repeats that and expands on it. The fact that one fan-book happens to mention the fact is not enough to establish that it is relevant to her career as an actress. Books like that don't always even qualify as reliable sources, much less for the very high standard required by WP:BLP. The consensus here is clear. And consensus does not always go the way you like. For instance, I was just on the "losing side" of a debate about how BLP and N interact with NOTNEWS; I believed, and still believe, that we have absolutely no business having WP articles on 99.99% of breaking news stories, especially crime stories, while the story is still ongoing. But consensus was against me. And so, I just walk away from that article and move on with my life. Do I still think they 90+% who weighed in against me were wrong? Sure. But not enough to try to follow through with further dispute resolution. If you want to do that here, go ahead and do so; I'll participate in a DRN discussion, mediation, whatever. But I don't see a reason to continue the debate here. Qwyrxian (talk) 09:38, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- The article is NOT changed.Where is "Bulgarian by birth" and where are my sources?!I never said that I don't like the rules, I said that some editors are above the rules and don't respect them!My version of Nina's wiki page was in accordance with WP:OR, WP:MOSBIO and WP:OPENPARA.According to WP:OPENPARA "Ethnicity can be emphasized in the opening if it is relevant to the subject's notability."Nina is notable for playing the role of "the only Bulgarian character on American television(Katherine Pierce)" which shows that her ethnicity is relevant to her career as an actress.My source is published in Crissy Calhoun's book.According to all necessary wiki rules I am right.It is a fact that some editors disrespect the rules only to push their Canadian POV.I am NOT the one who is deleting sourced information which is in accordance with WP:MOSBIO... --Dvrt09 (talk) 09:28, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- The article has been changed, and now accurately reflects exactly what the sources you provided verify--that she is, at least, Bulgarian by birth. You have not provided a source verifying that she has Bulgarian citizenship. Now, you may not like our rules, but don't claim we're not following them. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:45, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- Then why are you not addressing my main arguments and sources there?!Maybe because I proved that my sources are reliable enough or maybe because you were too busy attacking me personally?!The fact that some editors need to use false accusations to get rid of me speaks well enough for itself.Too bad that the false accusations failed...Anyway it is not important for me whether this article will be changed or not.What is important for me is that I exposed the fact that you can find everything in wikipedia but not neutral point of view.It is not surprising why wikipedia is notorious for being highly unreliable.Besides I have better things to do and I will not argue with people who don't respect even their own rules... --Dvrt09 (talk) 13:21, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
- You "proved" nothing at BLP/N -- other than to harm your own position. I think you should read what others wrote there. Cheers. Collect (talk) 12:20, 8 May 2013 (UTC)
- "Books like that don't always even qualify as reliable sources."
- -In this case obviously it does qualify since it is used as a reference for the opening paragraph.This is double standard.
- "The consensus here is clear. And consensus does not always go the way you like."
- -WP:NPOV:"NPOV is a fundamental principle of Wikipedia and of other Wikimedia projects. This policy is nonnegotiable and all editors and articles must follow it." "The principles upon which this policy is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, or by editors' consensus."
- It is not about the article.It is about the fact that obviously the wiki rules do not matter.Do you admit that "consensus" is above the rules and the fundamental principle of Wikipedia-NPOV?!If this is the case then I will not waste my time anymore here... --Dvrt09 (talk) 10:27, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- Like most debates on WP, the question is, how do WP:NPOV and WP:BLP and WP:MOS apply here? You think they apply one way. Consensus is that they apply a different way. Does consensus trump NPOV? No, of course not. How do we determine what is NPOV? By consensus. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:31, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- So you are admitting that consensus is above NPOV since it determines what NPOV is. WP:NPOV:"Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources."This article do NOT represent "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources".Also you didn't said nothing about the fact that Crissy Calhoun's book is used as a reliable source in the opening paragraph but my source is discarded.What about the double standard here?! --Dvrt09 (talk) 11:05, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- So, yes, I see that it seems to have been judged to be a reliable source. That's dubious to me, but I don't feel like taking it to RSN to discuss it. So, fine, it's reliable. But one book making a single claim in a single sentence is not enough to meet the "is relevant to the subject's notability". Nor, in fact, is it important enough to meet WP:NPOV, specifically WP:DUE. By putting her ethnicity in the opening line, when all you have is a single sentence in a single "unauthorized" book, you're overemphasizing her ethnicity in her overall encyclopedic story.
- Back to consensus/NPOV--try to think a minute about what you're saying. What would you suggest we do when people discuss something, and they disagree about what is NPOV? You think your version is NPOV, I, and many others, think the current version is NPOV. How would we resolve such discussions if not through consensus? Why does your interpretation automatically meet NPOV and ours does not? Qwyrxian (talk) 12:17, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- My version do not censor or hide information from the readers.My version represent "all significant views" including Nina's own words.Readers like me do not want censorship, we want to recieve as much information as we can get about a person or other subject.This kind of attitude will only lead to more edit wars, requests and complaints from other people after me.I am sure that when you search in the web about a subject you are intersted in you want to find as much information as you can get, not someone else to decide what is important for you to read and what is not.A lot of her fans want to know why Katherine Pierce is Bulgarian in the show and not German like it is in the books.Can they find this information in wikipedia?!No. Why?!Because it is censored and hidden... --Dvrt09 (talk) 13:59, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- You also didn't said nothing about the fact that "Born in Bulgaria" does NOT equal Bulgarian(ethnicity) and why it is NOT mentioned even once in the entire article that she is Bulgarian.I don't accept that hiding and manipulating information is in "good faith". --Dvrt09 (talk) 16:09, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- WP:DUE is about different viewpoints about the same subject for example whether the earth is flat or not.The statement "Katherine became the only Bulgarian character on American television." is the only published viewpoint which makes it directly the majority since there are no other published sources which represent other viewpoints about this subject.Half of the information that is currently in the opening paragraph is "a single sentence in a single "unauthorized" book"-according to you this means that we should remove it... --Dvrt09 (talk) 16:57, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- If I use your criteria then according to WP:DUE calling her nationality canadian is undue because the majority of sources refer to her only as bulgarian-canadian, bulgarian or canadian; NOT as canadian citizen or of canadian nationality.This means that we should also remove canadian from the opening paragraph and the infobox since it represent only the minority views.Besides as you said before "She is notable as an actress"And I will paraphrase and use some of your arguments.She is not a Canadian freedom fighter, a leader of a prominent Canadian civil rights groups, etc.Nor is she regularly labelled as the first Canadian to do X. --Dvrt09 (talk) 20:29, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- So you are admitting that consensus is above NPOV since it determines what NPOV is. WP:NPOV:"Editing from a neutral point of view (NPOV) means representing fairly, proportionately, and as far as possible without bias, all significant views that have been published by reliable sources."This article do NOT represent "all significant views that have been published by reliable sources".Also you didn't said nothing about the fact that Crissy Calhoun's book is used as a reliable source in the opening paragraph but my source is discarded.What about the double standard here?! --Dvrt09 (talk) 11:05, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- Like most debates on WP, the question is, how do WP:NPOV and WP:BLP and WP:MOS apply here? You think they apply one way. Consensus is that they apply a different way. Does consensus trump NPOV? No, of course not. How do we determine what is NPOV? By consensus. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:31, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
Feel free to escalate this to some form of dispute resolution. I believe that I or others have adequately answered all of these points already. You repeating your arguments is not going to get me to come around, since I believe that WP policies say and imply that we should only include ethnicity in the lead when it is extremely relevant to their notability, something which, almost by definition, cannot be met by someone who is notable for being an actor, with possible rare circumstances which I can't actually imagine right now. Since you've now moved on to claiming "censorship", which has literally no meaning here (neither you nor I have free speech rights on WP, since it's a privately owned website), I'm done with this discussion unless you want to move to some more formal venue. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:35, 9 May 2013 (UTC)
- Well I already said what I have to say.The fact that you can't answer the question why my source is discarded when half of the information that is currently in the opening paragraph is "a single sentence in a single "unauthorized" book" like you said, shows that there is double standard.Crissy Calhoun's book is a reliable source when suit us,but when doesn't suit us suddenly it became ""unauthorized" book"-just no comment.What MOSBIO says about ethnicity is only about the opening paragraph not the entire article.You have absolutely no excuses why it is not mentioned even once in the entire article that she is Bulgarian despite the sources and Nina's own words.I am done here since I proved that there is no neutral point of view in this article... --Dvrt09 (talk) 08:53, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
If a human, who was born in Bulgaria, and who's name is Nikolina Konstantinova Dobreva is Canadian mean that Canada is bulgarian province or Bulgaria is canadian state. Or somebody is in conflict with Geography. Please, change "Canadian" to "Bulgarian Canadian". English Wikipedia is only one of Wikipedias, where Bulgarians and Bulgarian Canadians are just "Canadians". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.118.193.185 (talk) 19:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Personal Life
The short, easy version is that Wikipedia is not a gossip rag. We don't need to report on who someone is dating or not dating, that they've broken up or been rumored to have broken up or whatever. Yes, we can do so, but is this really some critical part of her encyclopedic story? In 30 years, when we look back on Dobrev's life/career, will it matter who she dated in 2013? This is the test we should be applying, especially when looking at personal information. Plus, this has the added benefit of stopping all of the pointless edit warring over what has or hasn't been "confirmed". Qwyrxian (talk) 14:30, 29 May 2013 (UTC)
Photo
Why is there the old photo from 2010 again? Wouldn't it be better to keep a more accurate one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.179.142.6 (talk) 23:00, 22 July 2013 (UTC)
- User:Nymf reverted, and I agree, that the colors on the new photo were poor, thus making the image a worse representation of her. Qwyrxian (talk) 00:34, 23 July 2013 (UTC)
- A better photo is needed!--88.111.123.67 (talk) 20:11, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Bulgarian nationality and citizenship
According to the Constitution of the Republic of Bulgaria (Art.25,(1)(3))and the Law on Citizenship of the Republic of Bulgaria adopted by the National Assembly of the Republic of Bulgaria citizen born in Bulgaria or having at least one parent with Bulgarian nationality having a citizenship until they renounce their citizenship. Citizenship may be lost if the person having a different from Bulgarian origin and acquired citizenship of the country of its origin which is. In the case of citizen Nina Dobrev was born as Nikolina Dobrev Sofia, she has Bulgarian citizenship guaranteed by the Constitution of the Republic of Bulgaria, as a person born on the territory of Bulgaria and parents with proven Bulgarian origin and Bulgarian citizens, until you withdraw it at own free will. Since then settling in Canada and it acquired Canadian citizenship properly would be to indicate both. I made the change of nationality in infobox and added Bulgarian because those arguments here.
[7] - Constitution of The Republic of Bulgaria. "Art. 5. (1) The Constitution shall be the supreme law, and no other law shall contravene it." "Art. 25. (1) A Bulgarian citizen shall be anyone born of at least one parent holding a Bulgarian citizenship, or born on the territory of the Republic of Bulgaria. (3) No one shall be deprived of Bulgarian citizenship acquired by birth." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumatro (talk • contribs) 21:10, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
- We don't know if she retained her citizenship, which requires evidence. Does Canada allow duel citizenship? Are there any benefits to Canadians for keeping a single citizenship? Per Wikipedia rules, you cannot make legal arguments to say what must be true in fact, because that's called [[WP:OR]|original research. Unless you can provide a source that explicitly states that she is a Bulgarian citizen, it cannot be added to the article, so I am reverting your edits. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:04, 3 September 2013 (UTC)
What more reliable source of the constitution? After she was born in Bulgaria, so she has Bulgarian citizenship. Sorry, but your arguments are absolutely meaningless. By law, you must prove that he has abandoned his Bulgarian citizenship and has only a Canadian. What you do not like the fact that Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian? In the absence of your arguments I think the discussion is now purely political. This type of site is the result of the mood of national hatred, and falsification of historical facts, which is generally illegal and contrary to the rules of Wikipedia and violates the rights of viewers to receive credible information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumatro (talk • contribs) 05:27, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- No, you are the one who doesn't understand. You are reading and interpreting the law and applying it to the situation of a specific person. This is in violation of the rules of Wikipedia; please read WP:OR. And trust me, this has nothing to do with "national hatred"--I don't know enough about Bulgaria to hate it. Furthermore, nationalism of any sort is probably the last thing I've ever been accused of. So, please provide a source which states that Nina Dobrev is a citizen of Bulgaria. Absent such a source, I don't think we can include the claim that she is. Finally, please do be careful not to claim that editors acting on Wikipedia are doing anything "illegal", as this can be interpreted as a legal threat, which always result in blocks per WP:NLT. I don't think that's what you meant here, but I just don't want you to be blocked unexpectedly. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:17, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- I do not blame the editors. I critisize the information they publish, because it is false. I do not know of the supreme law of the constitution. I do not know who is this source, which you have trusted. There's just a false information and despite all my arguments (including the Constitution) you reply me that can not be changed. I do not think that deception is the rule of Wikipedia, any links to point me. I do not care who you love and who you hate. You're free to hate and love who you want. This information is incorrect. And as keep misinformation, despite all the only explanation seems to me that the article is hostage to one's national interests and loses its neutrality. I apologize if anyone was offended! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumatro (talk • contribs) 06:54, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- We also need to create another row "citizenship" where to write Bulgarian and Canadian. Against "nationality" should write Bulgarian, because she is from Bulgaria and her parents are Bulgarians. Obviously, the some of editors here make no distinction between nationality and citizenship, which is another reason to change the information in infobox.
Please show me any evidence that she is from Canadian nationality (not a Canadian citizenship),if you think that this information should be retained. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sumatro (talk • contribs) 09:24, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- Um...nationality and citizenship almost always mean the same thing. Except for very few exceptions (see Nationality#Nationality and citizenship), being a national of a state is the same thing as being a citizen of that state. In all honesty, until I looked at that other page, I would have said they mean exactly the same thing, because they are almost always used interchangeably. In this particular case, I don't see any distinction between the two. Qwyrxian (talk) 11:19, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Now I noticed that you are from the U.S., which explains the mixing of the two concepts. Obviously, in the U.S. and in Europe are various explanations. In Europe, the concept of nation is much more comprehensive. In the United States there is no difference because there are many nations in one country. Nations are communities of people united by a common history, culture, traditions and language associated with a particular location (country, area). For example: If I was born in Greece, and my parents are Greek and I was emigrated to Australia can gain Australian citizenship as I get a passport, but do I have Greek nationality. By Australian nationality can only be my children, who were born in Australia. In this case they will be Greek-Australians. It is better to know some things. For example, saying that you know nothing about Bulgaria, but argue about who has Bulgarian nationality and who is not. Please, before a dispute, read something about the history of Bulgaria, read about the birth of the nation in the Balkans and the rest of Europe. Did you know that Bulgarians are one of the first nations in the world? Did you know when a group of people called the nation? Who invented the concept of a nation? Do not wonder if you meet harsh comments because this is a sensitive subject and you have to be careful. If there's one thing I dislike, it is a dispute, led by people who know nothing about the subject they are talking about, but are considered to be professionals. Look for information about the topic, read a books, visit a library ... Bulgaria has over 1400 years of history, there you will find something useful to you for this article. Examine the rules on citizenship of that country. I see in the history of the article that a lot of people are changed "Canadian" nationality to "Bulgarian". Did not you ask the question "why". From simple vandalism or because there is an error in the article? Read before you fix! That's my advice. Sorry, if I offended you with something! - Sumatro (talk) 15.20, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
- All of this stuff about the history of Bulgaria is absolutely irrelevant, and implies to me that your goal here has to do much more with the glorification of a country than in the creation of a neutral Wikipedia article. The way you are using the word "nationality" is simply wrong. A citizen of a country is, by definition, always a national of that country. In very rare cases, a person may be a national of a country but not a citizen. That is, "citizen" is always a subset of "national". Maybe you have an idiosyncratic definition of the word, but it is not the mainstream definition. I think what you're trying to talk about is what on Wikipedia is called "ethnicity", or, as this article already asserts "descent". We know for a fact that she's a Canadian citizen/national of Bulgarian descent. We also believe that she's probably a Bulgarian citizen/national, but, unfortunately, Wikipedia rules on biographies of living people are extra strict, and, as such, we can't accept a "probably". Unless we have an explicit statement that she continues to hold Bulgarian citizenship, we need to leave it out. And finally, please be careful in how you characterize what I said. I said I know almost nothing about Bulgaria. However, what I do know quite a lot about is Wikipedia policies, as well as the English language. On both of these points, your argument is lacking. Qwyrxian (talk) 13:37, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Give me the proof that she's Canadian! You say that The Constitution is "probably"? Is there any greater proof of the constitution of an independent state? I don't think so. I told you that you think like american. Citizenship, nationality, ethnicity and descent are 4 different things. The explanation that I glorify Bulgaria is very funny. What glory would bring to Bulgaria the fact that one Bulgarian actress is Bulgarian actress? My goal is not to "glorify" Bulgaria. My goal is to "glorify" the truth. And... please, read before you comment! :) - Sumatro (talk) 16.22, 4 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.118.193.163 (talk)
I'm sick! I'm from Sofia and I know the family of Nina Dobrev. She is Bulgarian. You don't need a constitution or biographies of living people to prove it. It takes just a 2 facts: 1. Her name is Nina Dobrev, proving that she is Bulgarian. If she were a Canadian her name must be Nicole Goods. But she is Nina Dobrev. Dobrev is bulgarian family, if you don't know. 2. She was born in Bulgaria and her parents are Bulgarians. I want to ask why in all Wikipedias she is a Bulgarian-Canadian, only in English she is Canadian? I'm Bulgarian, like Nina Dobrev and I think that your repudiation by Bulgarian nationality of my countrymen like insult against me. Canada is a beautiful country in which are born many great people. No need to steal Bulgarians and to considers them as Canadians. It's not honestly. Why people who never heard about Bulgaria write the biography of Bulgarian? Why the page cannot be editing? Can somebody answered? Petar Petrov.
- I'm done with this conversation. If you're not willing to learn Wikipedia rules, there's nothing I can do to help. No, the Constitution is not proof in any way, because I'm fairly certain that the Constitution does not mention the words "Nina Dobrev". And the IP's comments about names are just laughable--people don't (usually) change their name when they change their citizenship.
- Look, I really do sympathize--I really think it is very likely that Dobrev still has Bulgarian citizenship. But we just have to be certain to put it here. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:02, 4 September 2013 (UTC)
Qwyrxian, please, read carefully: "Art. 25. (1) A Bulgarian citizen shall be anyone born of at least one parent holding a Bulgarian citizenship, or born on the territory of the Republic of Bulgaria." Nina Dobrev was born in SOFIA. SOFIA is the capital of BULGARIA. NINA DOBREV WAS BORN IN BULGARIA. NINA DOBREV IS BULGARIAN CITIZEN. The Constitution says: "anyone born of at least one parent holding a Bulgarian citizenship, or born on the territory of the Republic of Bulgaria.".
About the names: Do you ask the question why the birth name of Nina Dobrev is Николина Константинова Добрева, and why her name is written on Cyrillic? May be Canada is Slavic country? :) May be Clement of Ohrid was committed unknown about the science crossing the Atlantic ocean to spreading Bulgarian alphabet in Canada? :) No. Her birth name is on Cyrillic, because she is Bulgarian. The Cyrillic alphabet was created in Bulgaria in the 9th century and today is the official alphabet in Bulgaria. Do you remember what we talking about the nation? This is second reason to change nationality from Canadian to Bulgarian. Create a new row in infobox - "citizenship", when to write "Bulgarian, Canadian", because she has double citizenship. And please, for the fourth time, show me the proof that she is Canadian! PLEASE! Only one proof. Only one reliable source, which to prove that she is from Canadian nationality! Thank you in advance! - Sumatro (talk) 07.40, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
What is this rule in Wikipedia, which making Bulgarians to Canadians? I want to show some articles and to explain me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wernher_von_Braun - German scientist, with american citizenship. Look the nationality - German, American. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Curie - this is interesting case, because exist the word "citizenship" - Poland and France. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elena_Paparizou - She was born in Sweden, but her parents are Greek and she is Greek-Swedish, not only Swedish. And over picture were posting her name on Latin and Greek alphabet. Why over picture of Nina Dobrev has not inscription on Cyrillic? For 30 minuts I found 67 such articles. If you want, I will quote all of them. This is only one article (I don't found other) in Wikipedia, when bulgarian citizen, born in Bulgaria, who's parents are Bulgarians is only... Canadian. Why? Do you can explain me? Why Wikipedia's rules respect the nationality of German, Polish, French, Greek and other immigrants and do not respect the nationality of Bulgarians? Who breaking the rules of Wikipedia - you, the editors of this article or editors of other articles? Did you know that the denial of nationality is humiliation about the person and the nation? If the editors here hate Nina Dobrev and Bulgaria, please, don't carry your hatred in article! I often using Wikipedia about information and I want to get a credible information. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.216.79 (talk) 13:18, 5 September 2013 (UTC)
I added a name on Cyrillic - Sumatro (talk) 07.51, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
http://www.yatedo.com/p/Nina+Dobrev/famous/d65a126c0a3b55b7d5db8d7fdebc5263 - Sumatro (talk) 07.54, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
- I think that the problem of this article is here - [8]. It breaking the neutrality of article. But The Constitution of Bulgaria is official document and it's 100% reliable source, include according to the rules of Wikipedia, like document - [9]. Art.25 (1) from The Constitution include all the people, born in Bulgaria (include Nina Dobrev, because she was born in Bulgaria). Sorry, Qwyrxian, but I don't see a reason to keeping "Only Canadian" nationality. She is Bulgarian and Canadian. I saw that in Wikipedias in all languages Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian - Canadian, only in English Wikipedia she is Canadian. From where you get the information that she is only Canadian? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.216.79 (talk) 15:56, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
- Qwyrxian has explained the situation very clearly and thoroughly. But I'll give it a shot.
- 1. The Bulgarian constitution does not mention Dobrev by name. Instead you are reading the constitution, adding in facts you know about Dobrev, and then drawing a conclusion. This is the very definition of "original research" which goes against Wikipedia policy. Please click this link to learn more about it.
- 2. It does not matter what the other language Wikis do. They have their own policies and guidelines. English Wikipedia has its own.
- 3. Also read WP:OPENPARA which tells us specifically that we should only list the country she is part of when she became notable. That country is Canada. Specifically note this part "Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Being born in Bulgaria (and even if she is still a citizen of Bulgaria) has absolutely nothing to do with her notability. She became notable only because of the work she did once she was in Canada. SQGibbon (talk) 16:54, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
SQGibbon, sorry, but for the first time I've heard about the nationality by notability. I don't know what the Canadians think about the concept "nationality", but I am historian, I was studied History in Sofia and Berlin, and the conception of nationality in Europe is too different. For example: when the person was born in Germany, he/she is from German nationality (by birth). Also like the examples with Wernher von Braun - [10], Marie Curie - [11] and Elena Paparizou - [12], by user 88.203.216.79. I don't want to judge before, but as historian I think that I'm right. Look the conception of Dual Nationality - [13]. I'am very surprise after your explanation. :) - Sumatro (talk) 20.23, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
- 1. You still haven't dealt with the issue of original research.
- 2. There are over 4 million articles on Wikipedia. Of those 4 million articles 4 million of them have problems. I have not looked at the articles you mentioned but the fact that they might be running afoul of Wikipedia policies and guidelines not only does not surprise me but it's irrelevant. Just because some articles aren't perfect does not mean we aren't going to try to fix the problems other articles have.
- 3. English is my native language. I speak if fluently. English is clearly not your native language, though you speak it well. In English "nationality" in almost all cases refers to one's citizenship. In many cases one's citizenship is the same as that person's country of origin but when that is not the case, nationality still refers to citizenship. I understand that when "nationality" gets translated into other languages it often gains a slightly different connotation that no longer matches perfectly what it means in English. Here's a link to a blog post from a professional linguist who deals with a similar misunderstanding. It is not exactly the same thing as I believe is going on here but hopefully it is similar enough to illuminate the way to your misunderstanding.
- 4. WP:OPENPARA still applies. That you haven't heard of it is, of course, irrelevant. She attained notability while a Canadian therefore that is the only thing that gets mentioned in the opening paragraph. SQGibbon (talk) 20:47, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
I want to offer a decision. I know that in the most part of English-speaker's world nationality and citizenship are synonyms. I understand, that according to WP:OPENPARA nationality is by notability. But the English Wikipedia is reading not only by peoples from Canada, United States and Australia. Many viewers with other mother's language also reading the articles here or using information from here and because they don't know about "nationality by nobility" or because in their countries exist a different conotations of nationality is happen mistakes. The user may to getting a wrong information or thinking that is manipulated information. This could be undermine the reputation of Wikipedia. My offer is to keep the nationality "Canadian" and to add "Bulgarian (by birth)". The row in infobox to seems like this:
"| nationality = Canadian, Bulgarian (by birth)" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.216.79 (talk) 22:03, 6 September 2013 (UTC)
- Nationality by notability is very strange concept. WP:OPENPARA is also too strange. I think that about this rule must beginning a discussion, because we talking about living people and that difference can make a problems. Sometimes the nationality can be a sensitive subject. But "Bulgarian (by birth)" is good idea. I agree.
- As has been pointed out several times, nationality does not generally refer to place of birth in English. Adding place of birth to the "nationality" entry of the infobox blatantly goes against the whole point of infoboxes. There is already a spot for birth place and that's where the information concerning her birth belongs. It is entirely inappropriate to try to shoehorn additional information into places it does not belong. SQGibbon (talk) 21:10, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
- The question is not about the place of birth. Just exist a different types of nationalities. In English language also exist the concept Dual Nationality by this article of English Wikipedia - [14]. I think that the notability's nationality refers to Canada, USA, Australia and New Zealand, because these are countries, created by settlers from many places. May be in Great Britain and rest Engish speaker's world the rules are others? It doesn't matter. Obviously existing a other point of view, different by showen in Infobox in article. I want to adding this point of view with a note, by idea of User:88.203.216.79, because the users, who understand the concept "nationality" by other way are also getting a correct information. - Sumatro (talk) 23.08, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
Nina Dobrev | |
---|---|
Николина Константинова Добрева | |
![]() Nina Dobrev at the 2010 Paley Center for Media. | |
Born | Nikolina Konstantinova Dobreva 9 January 1989 |
Nationality | Canadian, Bulgarian (by birth) |
Occupation(s) | Actress, model |
Years active | 2006–present |
Website | www |
And seems perfect by me. Greetings! - Sumatro (talk) 21.22, 7 September 2013 (UTC)
- You are welcome to start a discussion on Template talk:Infobox person to attempt to get this change, but that is not what the parameter is for, and you can't just override that here. And you can say whatever you want about your idiosyncratic definition of "nationality", but it's not what sources say, and it's not what dictionaries say. So, I don't see any more to do here. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:47, 8 September 2013 (UTC)
You can adding some note after "nationality", that existing other point of view. Or may be can adding a new row "ethnicity: Bulgarian" according to Template:Infobox person, so as to understand by users, who don't know about Canadian and American version of nationality and because of that reason getting a wrong information. In this case Infobox will seems like this:
Nina Dobrev | |
---|---|
Николина Константинова Добрева | |
![]() Nina Dobrev at the 2010 Paley Center for Media. | |
Born | Nikolina Konstantinova Dobreva 9 January 1989 |
Nationality | Canadian |
Occupation(s) | Actress, model |
Years active | 2006–present |
Website | www |
Something about Bulgaria, Canada and one Bulgarian girl in Canada
Hallo, dear Wikipedians! I see that here are many discussions about the nationality of Nina Dobrev. I want to to draw your attention by some facts: 1. Please change "Canadian actress" to "Bulgarian - Canadian actress". Nina Dobrev was born in Bulgaria and like every Bulgarian - born person she has Bulgarian citizenship. Her parents are also Bulgarians. If you think that she hasn't Bulgarian nationality (I don't see logical reason to think so) her Bulgarian descent is 100% sure (because her parents are Bulgarians). 2. I don't see a logic to present only Canadian version of nationality and to ignore the Law of other countries (Bulgaria - in this case). "The Big Rule" in all encyclopedias, include Wikipedia is neutrality point of view. In "Edit request on 2 April 2013" and "Bulgarian nationality and citizenship" are presenting many proofs and reliable sources (include Constitutions!) by Bulgarian nationality and descent of Nina, but I don't understand why some editors ignore this facts. It's not fairly. 3. May be will mean strange by Qwyrxian, but the correct is "Bulgarian actress, who raised in Canada". Thank you for attention! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.24.37.106 (talk) 15:36, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, by The Law she is with twice citizenship - Bulgarian by Bulgarian Law and Canadian by Canadian. I think that adding. JanHusCz (talk) 17:47, 19 September 2013 (UTC)
- Let's try this again. The only thing that matters in this discussion are the policies and guidelines of Wikipedia. The personal opinions of editors do not matter. The constitutions of other countries do no matter. Please read WP:OPENPARA for yourself, but here are the relevant bits:
- The opening paragraph should have: ... Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity);
- 1) In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.
- 2) Ethnicity or sexuality should not generally be emphasized in the opening unless it is relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability. (emph. added)
- Take point 1. Dobrev became notable while a citizen of Canada and not Bulgaria. Therefore we list Canada. Take point 2. It states specifically that we should not mention previous nationalities or country of birth unless they are related to her notability. That she was born in Bulgaria is not related to her notability. Therefore it should not be mentioned. All the relevant policies and guidelines dictate mentioning only Canada and none of them support adding Bulgaria. This is very simple and basic Wikipedia editing. If you do not like it or agree with it then work to get the guideline changed. In the meantime none of you gets to set the rules for how Wikipedia operates, you do not own Wikipedia or this article. You are editors like the rest of us and have to follow the same policies and guidelines we do. SQGibbon (talk) 17:51, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- And because we playing to the rules, we must present correct information. "the country of which the person is a citizen" - these countries are Bulgaria and Canada. And she became notable while a sitizen of Bulgaria and Canada, not only Canada. Read carefully! I don't understand what is the problem. The Cold war ended before 24 years. If you have some problem with the countries in Eastern Europe, it's your problem and can't bring your opinions in article about one actress, please! - JanHusCz (talk) 17:47, September 2013 (UTC)
- JanHusCz, please provide a source that states that she is Bulgarian explicitly. If you wish to use the Constitution of Bulgaria, please provide the exact quotation that contains Nina Dobrev's name. If her name is not in the constitution, you may not use it as a source, because interpreting a primary document like a government law and applying it to a real case is original research, which we do not allow. Also note that if you revert again on the article you will be blocked for crossing WP:3RR. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:18, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
This is quote from the book of Anna - Maria Yordanova "From East to The West. 100 popular people from Eastern Europe in Western Europe and America", Publishing house "Orel", Sofia, 2012, page 132 - 135. In the book are published the biographies of 100 people from Eastern Europe (Russia, Poland, Bulgaria, Greece, Czech republic, Slovakia, Romania and Ukraine), include Nina Dobrev (p. 132 - 134) The Original version:
“ | Любопитни факти
Нина Добрев Име: Николина Добрева Родена на: 9 януари 1989 г. Място на раждане: София Националност: Българка Гражданство: Българско и канадско... </ref> |
” |
— От изток към Запад. 100 популярни източноевропейци в Западна Европа и Америка</ref> Анна - Мария Йорданова, Орел, 2012, София, с.132 - 134, Нина Добрев, една млада българска звезда в Холивуд |
Translated to English, 2012:
“ | Interesting facts
Nina Dobrev Name: Nikolina Dobreva Born: 9 January 1989 Place of birth: Sofia Nationality: Bulgarian Citizenship: Bulgarian and Canadian... </ref> |
” |
— "From East to The West. 100 popular people from Eastern Europe in Western Europe and America"</ref> Anna - Maria Yordanova, Orel, Sofia, 2012, p.132 - 134, "Nina Dobrev - One young Bulgarian star in Hollywood" |
Nina Dobrev in Constitution of Bulgaria? Sorry, but do you crazy? Do you know what is Constitution? :) The Constitution prove that like every Bulgarian-born person she has Bulgarian citizenship. It's not a direct source, which to say "Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian". For this work the peoples was created biographies. Why nobody quoted some biography to now? - JanHusCz (talk) 16.11, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- Finally. Finally a source we can consider using. My point on the Constitution is that of course it's not there, but you were trying to use it as evidence, which we cannot do. But this new source, if the book is reliable (and it might be) would be enough to include both citizenships. Let's see what others say. Qwyrxian (talk) 14:44, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- Google gives me zero hits for this book. Anyone other than these Bulgarian editors who can confirm? I got this hit for the author. Seems like it is a harpist? Source looks dubious to me. Nymf (talk) 15:46, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- Hmmm...I get nothing in Worldcat either, in either English or whatever language that is. JanHusCz, can you give us some sort of weblink to the publisher, to a review of the book, anything? While English would be easier, if it's not, that's fine; I just want something so that I can try to verify that this meets our reliable source guidelines. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:31, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- It has been nearly a week, and no reaction yet. We should probably consider restoring the status quo until (if) the source is properly verified. Nymf (talk) 17:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- OK, I changed it back to just Canadian. It's been a week + 2 days. SQGibbon (talk) 15:08, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
- It has been nearly a week, and no reaction yet. We should probably consider restoring the status quo until (if) the source is properly verified. Nymf (talk) 17:55, 30 September 2013 (UTC)
- Hmmm...I get nothing in Worldcat either, in either English or whatever language that is. JanHusCz, can you give us some sort of weblink to the publisher, to a review of the book, anything? While English would be easier, if it's not, that's fine; I just want something so that I can try to verify that this meets our reliable source guidelines. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:31, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
- Google gives me zero hits for this book. Anyone other than these Bulgarian editors who can confirm? I got this hit for the author. Seems like it is a harpist? Source looks dubious to me. Nymf (talk) 15:46, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
Try in library. May be in some university, where learn Slavic philology. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.216.79 (talk) 20:02, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
- If you notice above, I checked in Worldcat, which is a website that lists a very large number of libraries across the world, in many different languages. I searched for this book in both English and (by copying and pasting) the original language. The site returned zero hits, meaning that none of the libraries that WorldCat indexes has a copy of the book. Now, WorldCat isn't perfect (smaller libraries aren't included), but it finds absolutely none, and we can't find any other information about the book anywhere else, we need someone to provide some clear evidence of the book's reliability. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:10, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
I mean real library :) This book has it in the bookstore of Tzar Ivan Shishman str., if you can see and if you are from Sofia. On the cover has pictures of Vladimir Nabokov, Dimitar Berbatov, Tzvetan Todorov and others. Actually, in Worldcat are 8 - 9 % of world literature and if it's a new book, and I saw it is, you cannot found there, because of copyright. By publishing law of European Union circulation will be free in Internet after minimum 24 months, if the author want to make it. But if the question is just about the nationality, I was quote one reliable source, where is written that Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian by nationality. It is documentary project of Deutsche Welle - http://www.dw.de/flashcms/beruehmtebulgaren/bg/bg_beruehmtebulgaren_popup.htm - 21 Famous People of Bulgarian nationality outside Bulgaria (12-13, Nina Dobrev; pic.№20), international project of Deutsche Welle, section: Bulgaria, DW Bulgarien, authors: Yordanka Yordanova, Maria Ilcheva, Dariya Popova - Witsel - DW international projects, © 2012 DEUTSCHE WELLE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.216.79 (talk) 14:41, 3 October 2013 (UTC)
- We have all about the book. We have a second reliable source, which confim this information. I don't understand what is the problem. - JanHusCz (talk) 16.11, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
Ocean of errors in Infobox
Dear colleagues, Sorry about the words, but The Infobox in this article is full chaos of errors. May be users must be learning some facts about the persons, laws and countries, for which editing. I saw that another users are nomerated the reasons, and I follow their way:
1. "People's republic of Bulgaria" is political name, not a geographical. The viewers want to learn where the person was born, not which is government in this time. If a person was born in USA in 1998, he was born in United States, not in "United States of the time of Bill Clinton", right?
2. By The Bulgarian nationality law [15], and The Nationality law of European Union, person who was born in the country (Bulgaria) or by bulgarian parents is bulgarian by nationality EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD. Nowhere in Wikipedia have a rule, which ignoring the nationality by birth, and by descent. The nationality depends by the law of every country - [16]. The ignoring of nationality by law of one person by political or another reasons is a crime.
3. The users in Talk page are presenting many reliable sources [17] and I change information in Infobox. - JanHusCz (talk) 17:20, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- If you want learning more information about this case, you may also look at this - [18] - JanHusCz (talk) 17:24, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
- Please see the section above, which clearly outlines Wikipedia's policies in this regard. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:39, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Early life - errors everywhere
Another error: "her father, Nikolai Dobrev". If the name of father is Nikolay Dobrev (Nikolai is not correct - [19]) her name must be Nikolina Nikolova Dobreva - [20]. If her surname is "Konstantinova", the name of her father is Konstantin Dobrev. JanHusCz (talk) 17:41, 23 September 2013 (UTC)
Personal life removal
@ Qwyrxian "Trivia; the fact that she trained for it is all we need to know, which is already stated." What exactly is that mean? Aren't her relationships part of her personal life? I didn't see any mention in the article...? Why not add it to the article since there are sources about it? TeamGale 21:39, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry, my mistake; that edit summary should have gone with the edit summary I just added, which was about her wanting all her life to be a rhythmic gymnast or something like that.
- That being said, your sectino should also be deleted. Is it a part of her personal life? Sure. Does it belong in an encyclopedia article? Absolutely not. We're not a gossip rag. Should she be in a long term relationship that is a fundamental part of her life, should she get married, or should she have children, then that type of relationship belongs. But we are not supposed to report one who someone is or isn't dating. That belongs in tabloids and entertainment TV. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:53, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
- OK, I understand. I was just wondering since I've seen in many articles such kind of info that looked like "gossip" and the explanation of removal was not exactly helpful. I won't add anything back, just wanted to help with the article. But her relationship with Somerhalder lasted 3 years, at least this one should be considered long term relationship in my opinion but I guess that's not objective. Thanks for answering. TeamGale 22:00, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian actress, who raised in Canada
She is not Canadian actress. She is Bulgarian by nationality and ethnicity and just was lived in Canada. See this project of DW, which I was quote before time - http://www.dw.de/flashcms/beruehmtebulgaren/bg/bg_beruehmtebulgaren_popup.htm - 21 Famous People of Bulgarian nationality outside Bulgaria (12-13, Nina Dobrev; pic.№20), international project of Deutsche Welle, section: Bulgaria, DW Bulgarien, authors: Yordanka Yordanova, Maria Ilcheva, Dariya Popova - Witsel - DW international projects, © 2012 DEUTSCHE WELLE — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.203.216.79 (talk) 19:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)
Filmography Date error
![]() | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Under Filmography 2008 Repo! The Genetic Opera Role Teenage Zydrate Addict Should read 2006 Repo! The Genetic Opera Role Teenage Zydrate Addict
She was in the 2006 film short and not the full length feature film that was released in 2008.
Proof is located at http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0945586/ Tikkiblue (talk) 08:30, 11 November 2013 (UTC)
Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Because imdb, like Wikipedia, is edited by anyone, it makes a poor reference. Thanks, Celestra (talk) 04:12, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
Opening paragraph again: nationality, residence, citizenship, etc.
As per WP:OPENPARA "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable." Clearly Dobrev was living in Canada when she became notable. Is she a citizen? Tons of websites seem to think so but I do not know what constitutes a reliable source in entertainment related articles. I did find this tweet from her which states "Im Canadian. We have healthcare for all. If you dont have insurance go to...". At the very least she considers herself Canadian which given the fact that we have reliable sources indicating that she moved to Canada when 2-years-old should be enough to use "Canadian actress" in the opening paragraph.
OPENPARA goes on to say "Similarly, previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." Which states very clearly that we should not put "Bulgarian born" in the opening paragraph. Nor should we mention that she was Bulgarian if she no longer is a citizen of that country. Those are non-debatable points and are clearly laid out in that Wikipedia guideline. If she maintains her Bulgarian citizenship and a reliable source can be found to support that claim then a new discussion can ensue as to how to add that information into the opening paragraph.
For now, she is Canadian -- that can go in. That she was born in Bulgaria should not be mentioned. Is she still a citizen of Bulgaria? If reliable sources can be found (and verified) that support that claim then we can discuss what to do with that information. SQGibbon (talk) 21:45, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, she is citizen of Bulgaria. By Constitution she is citizen of Bulgaria. I was quote a book, which say that she is Bulgarian and Canadian. NOT JUST A CANADIAN! NOT JUST A BULGARIAN! BULGARIAN and CANADIAN! Because she became notable in Bulgaria and Canada. And by OPENPARA she is Bulgarian and Canadian. I don't know from when Twitter is use like encyclopedia or reliable source. How you found that beyond this profile is real Nina Dobrev? I can show you many videos in YouTube, in which Nina Dobrev say "I'm Bulgarian". Forgive me if it's not the reason, but I think that you and some other editors here are just a canadian nationalists, whose believe that everybody is Canadian and ignore the different opinions, which say that is not correct. May be I make a mistake, but I'm feeling that. JanHusCz (talk) 22:06, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- 1) Read WP:AGF. Related: I am not Canadian. I am not pro- or against Canada. I rarely give Canada a second thought. I know next to nothing about Bulgaria and am positive I would not be able to find it on a map. I am neither pro- nor against Bulgaria. I'm pretty sure I've never even thought about Bulgaria in my life. I also do not know who Nina Dobrev is nor do I care. The only thing I care about is making the best encyclopedia that can be made while following the guidelines and policies put in place by my fellow Wikipedia editors.
- 2) Please read WP:OR. You reading the constitution of Bulgaria and determining that she is a citizen of Bulgaria is the very definition of original research and is not allowed on Wikipedia. Period.
- 3) The little check mark next to her name on her tweet means that Twitter has verified that that account belongs to the actual Nina Dobrev. She identifies as Canadian. She has lived there since she was two. She became notable while living in Canada. These are all facts and support stating at the very least that she is a "Canadian actress" in the opening sentence.
- 4) I see from the discussion above that there were claims of existing reliable sources that support the claim that Dobrev is still a citizen of Bulgaria. We were unable to verify the claims or that they are from reliable sources. We need to have a reliable source that can be verified that establishes she is Bulgarian. Without that it should not be mentioned in the opening paragraph that she is Bulgarian.
- 5) We do not mention place of birth in the opening paragraph. If the conditions in #4 are not met establishing that she still holds citizenship in Bulgaria then not only can we not mention that she is Bulgarian but, as per WP:OPENPARA we cannot mention that she was born there, ie., nothing like "Bulgarian-born"
- 6) You claim "Because she became notable in Bulgaria and Canada." This is not true. She did not become notable during the first two years of her life while living in Bulgaria. She became notable after having moved to and settled in Canada. I realize that as you are not fluent in English that you probably did not mean this phrase to be interpreted like this -- I am only remarking on it in case anyone else reads this and does not understand the issues involved.
- 7) Summary. "Canadian actress" is appropriate for the opening sentence. "Bulgarian Canadian actress" might be once reliable sources are produced that can be verified. "Bulgarian-born" is not appropriate regardless of what sources are produced as it is in direct violation of WP:OPENPARA. For now the appropriate action is to have "Canadian actress" and that's it. The very second we have the sources for her Bulgarian citizenship then we can discuss how to incorporate that information like possibly "Bulgarian-Canadian actress". SQGibbon (talk) 23:46, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
- You claim: "We need to have a reliable source that can be verified that establishes she is Bulgarian". Read, please: "Art.25 (3) No one shall be deprived of Bulgarian citizenship acquired by birth". What you want more to prove that she is Bulgarian? Somewhere in Talk page one of editors say that The Constitution is not reliable source, because nowhere is saying "Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian". I want to ask: Where in WP:OPENPARA is saying "Nina Dobrev is Canadian"? Nowhere, because also like quotes from Constitution, it's just a dеfinition. If Constitution is not reliable source, what is reliable source? Some site in Internet? Actually "Vampire Diaries", which bring a popularity of Nina is american movie, and now she live in USA. Is this mean that she is American? I don't think so. Actually she lived in Sofia, Toronto and USA. But she hasn't triple citizenship. And Bulgarian is not only by birth - by notability is also, because she resident in Sofia until 2 years old and after that - in Sofia and Toronto. That is the reasons, which proved double nationality of Nina. Sumatro (talk) 10:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- You cannot use the constitution as a source, as that is the very definition of original research. You will need, as has been stated several times before, proper, reliable, verifiable sources adressing Dobrev's citizenship specifically. None have been provided, so far. Nymf ([[User talk:Nymf|talk[[) 11:48, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
You always talking about OPENPARA, but I think you don't understand what is wrote there. To help you, please, look the bolding text: "Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity); In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable.". Nina is a citizen of Bulgaria and Canada. In Wikipedia exist article Bulgarian Canadians, where is saying everything about this cases. JanHusCz (talk) 11:50, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- I agree. When the readers click Bulgarian Canadian, they go to article, which include full information about the Nina's case. Quote from Bulgarian Canadians:
"Those can include Bulgarian Canadians living in Canada for one or several generations, dual Bulgarian Canadian citizens, or any other Bulgarian Canadians who consider themselves to be affiliated to both cultures or countries. Some Bulgarian Canadians might be born in Bulgaria, Canada or other countries with ethnic Bulgarian population.". I think that it's the best variant, because unite all. Sumatro (talk) 12:56, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- How an article in Wikipedia defines "Bulgaria Canadian" has absolutely no relevance to this discussion. What matters is what WP:OPENPARA states and whether we have reliable verifiable sources and that we avoid original research. Also, the line quoted from the constitution states that "No one shall be deprived of Bulgarian citizenship acquired by birth" does not cover the fact that she might have voluntarily relinquished her citizenship as a Bulgarian for any number of reasons (like possible tax issues). We just do not know what has happened or what decisions she has made. We need a reliable and verifiable source that states specifically that she has retained her Bulgarian citizenship. SQGibbon (talk) 14:35, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- Finally someone to agree with me. There are many similar cases, and these article are beginning with "He/She is Greek American, ...Russian Canadian, ...German American" and others. It's not broke the rules of Wikipedia. It's just a different cases - people with more than one citizenship. If everybary are agree, we can save this version like "Bulgarian Canadian actress..." JanHusCz (talk) 13:09, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- If a verifiable and reliable source can be found that states she is still a Bulgarian citizen that does not require any original research then we can discuss how to add that information to the opening sentence. It is really that simple. Reading the Bulgarian constitution and determining that Dobrev is a Bulgarian citizen is the very definition of what we are not supposed to do on Wikipedia. Here is a quote from the Wikipedia policy on original research "Do not combine material from multiple sources to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources." What you are doing is taking material from one source, the Bulgarian constitution, combining it with material from other sources, stating that Dobrev was born in Bulgaria, and reaching a conclusion that is not explicitly stated by any of those sources. SQGibbon (talk) 14:35, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
For second time, if somebody not saw that: This is quote from the book of Anna - Maria Yordanova "From East to The West. 100 popular people from Eastern Europe in Western Europe and America", Publishing house "Orel", Sofia, 2012, page 132 - 135. In the book are published the biographies of 100 people from Eastern Europe (Russia, Poland, Bulgaria, Greece, Czech republic, Slovakia, Romania and Ukraine), include Nina Dobrev (p. 132 - 134) The Original version:
“ | Любопитни факти
Нина Добрев Име: Николина Добрева Родена на: 9 януари 1989 г. Място на раждане: София Националност: Българка Гражданство: Българско и канадско... </ref> |
” |
— От изток към Запад. 100 популярни източноевропейци в Западна Европа и Америка</ref> Анна - Мария Йорданова, Орел, 2012, София, с.132 - 134, Нина Добрев, една млада българска звезда в Холивуд |
Translated to English, 2012:
“ | Interesting facts
Nina Dobrev Name: Nikolina Dobreva Born: 9 January 1989 Place of birth: Sofia Nationality: Bulgarian Citizenship: Bulgarian and Canadian... </ref> |
” |
— "From East to The West. 100 popular people from Eastern Europe in Western Europe and America"</ref> Anna - Maria Yordanova, Orel, Sofia, 2012, p.132 - 134, "Nina Dobrev - One young Bulgarian star in Hollywood" |
JanHusCz (talk) 14:44, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
And comment from user 88.203.216.79 / [21]. Source: DEUTSCHE WELLE: She is not Canadian actress. She is Bulgarian by nationality and ethnicity and just was lived in Canada. See this project of DW, which I was quote before time - http://www.dw.de/flashcms/beruehmtebulgaren/bg/bg_beruehmtebulgaren_popup.htm - 21 Famous People of Bulgarian nationality outside Bulgaria (12-13, Nina Dobrev; pic.№20), international project of Deutsche Welle, section: Bulgaria, DW Bulgarien, authors: Yordanka Yordanova, Maria Ilcheva, Dariya Popova - Witsel - DW international projects, © 2012 DEUTSCHE WELLE JanHusCz (talk) 14:47, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- The dw.de link does not appear to state that Dobrev is a Bulgarian citizen, only that she was born there. This is based on Google's translation service which I know is not reliable but since you did not provide a translation I had to make do. As for the book, I have been unable to find any mention of it on the internet using either the translated title or the original language one. We need to be able to verify it and make sure that it is a reliable source. Just because something is mentioned in a book does not mean it is a reliable source. But at least these are a start. SQGibbon (talk) 15:33, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- Obviously you are understand nothing. Over mosaic of DW link is wrote "Кои са най-известните българи в чужбина" - transl. "The most famous Bulgarians in the world". And the name of DW's project is "21 Famous People of Bulgarian nationality outside Bulgaria". I don't understand what is the problem with the book - There are Publisher, Publish house, Year of publishing, place of publishing, the pages from the book about Nina, the quote from the book - we have it all! What other you want? JanHusCz (talk) 16:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- That DW.de link is not reliable (being born in Bulgaria and being a Bulgarian citizen is two different things), nor are either of those sources verifiable. According to Google, the book does not even exist. It has been months now since you said you would assist in verifying it. It seems to me that you both (Sumatro and JanHusCz) seem to drop the issue as long as it does not state that she is Canadian, which makes me suspect that you are not looking to improve the article at all. What is up with that? Nymf (talk) 18:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- The problem with the book is that we have been unable to verify anything about the book. Lots of books that are published do not meet WP:RS, especially for BLP info. Qwyrxian (talk) 22:13, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
- That DW.de link is not reliable (being born in Bulgaria and being a Bulgarian citizen is two different things), nor are either of those sources verifiable. According to Google, the book does not even exist. It has been months now since you said you would assist in verifying it. It seems to me that you both (Sumatro and JanHusCz) seem to drop the issue as long as it does not state that she is Canadian, which makes me suspect that you are not looking to improve the article at all. What is up with that? Nymf (talk) 18:04, 20 November 2013 (UTC)
What about asking her on Twitter? Something like "Are you Canadian, Bulgarian, or Canadian-Bulgarian"? --Chiya92 10:47, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- Nymf, I think that you have a problem with reading. In DW is saying "Bulgarians", not "born in Bulgaria". Read carefully, please! I'm not talking about other editors, but I have only one drem - Wikipedia to say the truth. About the book - only one, which I say, include all that I say until now, is identification number - 9789540900220. And I don't know why in Internet has no result. I'm not a publisher JanHusCz (talk) 16:04, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- I don't have problem with reading, at all. I believe you may have a problem understanding the policy of what constitutes as a reliable source, though. See WP:RS and especially WP:VERIFY. Nymf (talk) 18:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- Nymf, I think that you have a problem with reading. In DW is saying "Bulgarians", not "born in Bulgaria". Read carefully, please! I'm not talking about other editors, but I have only one drem - Wikipedia to say the truth. About the book - only one, which I say, include all that I say until now, is identification number - 9789540900220. And I don't know why in Internet has no result. I'm not a publisher JanHusCz (talk) 16:04, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
For me Bulgarian Canadian is perfect. In many interwiers Nina said "I m Bulgarian", "I m proud to be Bulgarian"... Look the Categories in article - Categories: "1989 births" "21st-century Canadian actresses" "Bulgarian emigrants to Canada" "Bulgarian film actresses" "Bulgarian television actresses"... I m Serbian. If I will emigrate in Canada and receiving a Canadian passport, I will stay Serbian, because I m from Serbia, my mother and my father is Serbs. but because i have canadian passport, but was born in Belgrade, i will have double citizenship. Nina Dobreva is also with double citizenship. Stop to hate each other! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.237.102.118 (talk) 14:37, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
The most interesting thing is Qwyrxian and Nymf says "She is Canadian", but Nina's natives names are on Cyrillic script. My question is "From what time Canadians write on Cyrillic?" Whatever you respond, no one convince me that it's not a product of maliciously attitude of some Americans by Eastern Europe, who not understand that Cold war is ending before 25 years and who know nothing about the Balkans and Eastern Europe, but who comment like "experts". Actually people from Eastern Europe are made some of the greatest american discoveries, and I don't understand why in your continent think some popular people from Balkans and other parts of Europe to be Americans or Canadians. I don't understand why you full ignore this part of the world. Yes, Nina is beautiful. Yes, Nina is talant actress. Yes, Nina is great girl. But Nina is Bulgarian girl with double citizenship, not Canadian. Understand it and go to learn Geography! Don't bring the problems of American education in Wikipedia, please! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.237.102.118 (talk) 15:33, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- I realise that you and these other Eastern European accounts/IPs on here is very nationalistic, but that does not mean that you can bypass policies and guidelines, and it certainly does not trump proper sourcing. Nymf (talk) 18:23, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- In Twitter Nina Dobrev say "I'm Bulgarian". It's important, because she consider herself Bulgarian. Sumatro (talk) 18:56, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- Still does not address citizenship. Nymf (talk) 21:34, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- In quote from Twitter, the question is from what nationality is she, and Nina answered "I'm Bulgarian". After she consider herself Bulgarian, I think that our dispute is finished. She is Bulgarian Canadian. JanHusCz (talk) 12:04, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, that's probably the best source I've seen so far. Nymf, can you please explain why you don't think that addresses citizenship? Generally, nationality and citizenship are synonymous. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:37, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- It is a better source than the rest, but from the look of it, she does not address the nationality part, but rather the "Russian" part of the question (which would refer to ethnicity, given her Eastern European looks). For example, there are lots and lots of American people who consider them Irish or Italian. That does not mean that they have Irish or Italian citizenship, but rather that their ethnicity is Irish or Italian. Since WP:OPENPARA says that we should not emphasize on ethnicity in the lead, I believe the source does not cut it. Nymf (talk) 16:24, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- The article Bulgarian Canadians explains my reasoning further. Nymf (talk) 16:26, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- Um, the sources says, "Are you Russian nationality?" and she replies "No! I'm Bulgarian." Are you saying that to be valid she must state "I am of Bulgarian nationality; I was born in Bulgaria, and, though I moved to Canada and also became a Canadian citizen, I retained my Bulgarian citizenship." That's simply unreasonable; I don't think that standard would be met by any person in Wikipedia. It's pretty near WP:OR for you to argue that "Well, she said Bulgarian (in response to a question about her citizenship), but it wasn't really clear, and seemed to be more about her ethnicity". As long as we are certain that that account is controlled by her (not a spoof/fan account), then I believe that we need to accept that as evidence. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:33, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- I do not see her response as a statement of citizenship. Is she Bulgarian by nationality or ethnicity, sure, and she said as much. Has she retained her Bulgarian citizenship? That does not seem at all clear from her Tweet. And while for many people nationality and citizenship are synonymous (especially, apparently, in the US) it is not always the case for everyone else. It is a complicated issue but I'm assuming that WP:OPENPARA was created with the intent of preventing lists of nationalities in lead sentences of biographies like English-Scottish-Irish-German-American if the person is a US citizen but can trace their family back through all those countries. If she is a dual-citizen (ie, has not renounced her Bulgarian citizenship) then writing "Bulgarian Canadian" would be perfectly fine. If she has not retained her Bulgarian citizenship then I think it runs afoul of the point of that particular guideline in WP:OPENPARA. As for what would constitute evidence, even just an interview with a reliable source where she mentions her dual-citizenship. I don't think that's a particularly onerous thing to require. SQGibbon (talk) 02:24, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
- Qwyrxian, there is an inherent duality of interpreting tweets, as they are short in nature, both space and thought wise (you admit this yourself, as well). I don't think I am at fault for questioning these things, nor is it OR. See the archives of Talk:Demi Moore/Archive 1 and Talk:Demi Moore/Archive 2 where a tweet was dissected extensively, over the course of 3 to 4 months. Nymf (talk) 10:17, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
- I do not see her response as a statement of citizenship. Is she Bulgarian by nationality or ethnicity, sure, and she said as much. Has she retained her Bulgarian citizenship? That does not seem at all clear from her Tweet. And while for many people nationality and citizenship are synonymous (especially, apparently, in the US) it is not always the case for everyone else. It is a complicated issue but I'm assuming that WP:OPENPARA was created with the intent of preventing lists of nationalities in lead sentences of biographies like English-Scottish-Irish-German-American if the person is a US citizen but can trace their family back through all those countries. If she is a dual-citizen (ie, has not renounced her Bulgarian citizenship) then writing "Bulgarian Canadian" would be perfectly fine. If she has not retained her Bulgarian citizenship then I think it runs afoul of the point of that particular guideline in WP:OPENPARA. As for what would constitute evidence, even just an interview with a reliable source where she mentions her dual-citizenship. I don't think that's a particularly onerous thing to require. SQGibbon (talk) 02:24, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
- It is a better source than the rest, but from the look of it, she does not address the nationality part, but rather the "Russian" part of the question (which would refer to ethnicity, given her Eastern European looks). For example, there are lots and lots of American people who consider them Irish or Italian. That does not mean that they have Irish or Italian citizenship, but rather that their ethnicity is Irish or Italian. Since WP:OPENPARA says that we should not emphasize on ethnicity in the lead, I believe the source does not cut it. Nymf (talk) 16:24, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, that's probably the best source I've seen so far. Nymf, can you please explain why you don't think that addresses citizenship? Generally, nationality and citizenship are synonymous. Qwyrxian (talk) 15:37, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- In quote from Twitter, the question is from what nationality is she, and Nina answered "I'm Bulgarian". After she consider herself Bulgarian, I think that our dispute is finished. She is Bulgarian Canadian. JanHusCz (talk) 12:04, 22 November 2013 (UTC)
- Still does not address citizenship. Nymf (talk) 21:34, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
- In Twitter Nina Dobrev say "I'm Bulgarian". It's important, because she consider herself Bulgarian. Sumatro (talk) 18:56, 21 November 2013 (UTC)
In the quote from Twitter, the question is about her nationality, not about ethnicity. And she say "I'm Bulgarian". She can't lose Bulgarian citizenship according to Constitution (Art.25(3)). By the Law she is Bulgarian. Now she also said: "I'm Bulgarian!". What you want more? May be Nina must to show you her passport?--JanHusCz (talk) 18:09, 23 November 2013 (UTC)
- JanHusCz is absolutely correct here. The question was very explicitly about nationality. She answered Bulgarian. Any attempt on our part to say, "Well, she said her nationality is Bulgarian, but I don't think she really meant 'nationality'" is pure original research. As for the "dual citizenship comment in an interview", in fact, that is an exceedingy onerous thing to ask--while other stuff exists is not a valid argument, you also can't hold this one article to a standard not used anywhere else on Wikipedia. If a person states that they have a certain nationality, we can't simply ignore that. In fact, even if we had a source that said that she was wrong, we'd still include her own claim along with the refutation in a second source. Finally, as for the nationality = citizenship issue, it's a pure red herring. As explained in Nationality, "It differs technically and legally from citizenship, although in most modern countries all nationals are citizens of the state and all citizens are nationals of the state." The modern exceptions are very narrow, and tend to involve disputed/awkward cases, like some US extra-national territories, and the China/Taiwan problem. And even if we thought this was relevant here, WP:OPENPARA doesn't talk about that! MOS talks about nationality, which is exactly and only the question Dobrev was responding to. At this point, I cannot see any reason to exclude "Bulgarian" from her opening sentence. Qwyrxian (talk) 01:59, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- "In fact, even if we had a source that said that she was wrong, we'd still include her own claim along with the refutation in a second source." I believe this is a key point. The opening paragraph and especially the lead sentence should not be based on how someone self-identifies especially if it is not clear that they are using the same words in the same way that Wikipedia does. The main body should have that information where it can be explained in further detail with whatever disclaimers and caveats need to be supplied. It also also makes no sense to bring up how Wikipedia defines "nationality" and then assume Dobrev was following that definition. As has been demonstrated on this talk page people clearly have different ideas about what "nationality" means. Further, tweets are by their very nature informal and breezy lacking in the kind of nuance that we're looking at here. Might she have meant that she is a citizen of Bulgaria? Sure! Might she have meant that she feels a connection with the place of her birth? Sure! Might it have been merely a way to maintain/enlarge her fan base? Sure! It is impossible to suss out what she meant to any reasonable degree based on this tweet. Off-the-cuff remarks (which is what tweets often are) should not be accepted uncritically as reliable. SQGibbon (talk) 07:45, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- The question was explicit, "What is your nationality?" In order to not include the info, you must assume that she misunderstood the question. That's not a reaonable approach. Also, your first point very very much worries me. You are saying that a person's self-identified nationality isn't how we should base the lead sentence. In that case, how should we do so? What other source other than the person's claim will suffice? I can't think of any evidence that could possibly, in fact, be offered, since we aren't allowed to use official government paperwork. To take a celebrity at random, the lead sentence of Jerry Seinfeld states that he is American. Later in the article we have a verified reference stating that he was born in the US. But, as far as I can tell, we don't have any evidence other than that. We don't know if he abandoned his US citizenship for tax purposes (as was asserted would be possible for Dobrev wrt her Bulgarian citizenship, which, as far as I know, no one actually doubts she had at at least one point in her life), or for political reasons, or simply on a whim. I don't see any link to an article that investigates his nationality, nor to an interview in which he states explicitly that he is a US citizen. Nymf and SQGibbon, you are essentially proposing rules that would make it impossible to ever indicate nationality, since you're saying that a person's open, public, self-professed response to the question, "What is your nationality?" is not an acceptable source. Remember, for years, I've been on the "no, we don't include Bulgarian because we can't source it" side. But now, we have an exact source stating in exact words that she is a Bulgarian national.
- And if you really want to go down this road, I'm going to have say that we need a source that explicitly and unambiguously states that now, as of 2013, she is a Canadian national. That she hasn't abandoned it, that she even became a citizen in the first place (it is, after all, possible to reside in Canada indefinitely as a permanent resident but non-citizen). Can you, or anyone provide that evidence, for Dobrev, or, in fact, for any BLP on Wikipedia? Qwyrxian (talk) 08:19, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- The more I look at the tweet, the more clear it becomes to me. The person asks if she has some kind of relation to Russian nationality, e.g. if she is ethnically Russian ("relation" is the keyword here, meaning if her parents or grand parents were Russian). The person does not actually ask her what her nationality or citizenship is. Nymf (talk) 09:36, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, it seems we need outside help. Nymf, SQGibbons, would you prefer I take this to WP:RSN, or go for an RfC on this page? Qwyrxian (talk) 09:53, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- An RFC seems reasonable. Nymf (talk) 10:44, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- Well, it seems we need outside help. Nymf, SQGibbons, would you prefer I take this to WP:RSN, or go for an RfC on this page? Qwyrxian (talk) 09:53, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- The more I look at the tweet, the more clear it becomes to me. The person asks if she has some kind of relation to Russian nationality, e.g. if she is ethnically Russian ("relation" is the keyword here, meaning if her parents or grand parents were Russian). The person does not actually ask her what her nationality or citizenship is. Nymf (talk) 09:36, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
- "In fact, even if we had a source that said that she was wrong, we'd still include her own claim along with the refutation in a second source." I believe this is a key point. The opening paragraph and especially the lead sentence should not be based on how someone self-identifies especially if it is not clear that they are using the same words in the same way that Wikipedia does. The main body should have that information where it can be explained in further detail with whatever disclaimers and caveats need to be supplied. It also also makes no sense to bring up how Wikipedia defines "nationality" and then assume Dobrev was following that definition. As has been demonstrated on this talk page people clearly have different ideas about what "nationality" means. Further, tweets are by their very nature informal and breezy lacking in the kind of nuance that we're looking at here. Might she have meant that she is a citizen of Bulgaria? Sure! Might she have meant that she feels a connection with the place of her birth? Sure! Might it have been merely a way to maintain/enlarge her fan base? Sure! It is impossible to suss out what she meant to any reasonable degree based on this tweet. Off-the-cuff remarks (which is what tweets often are) should not be accepted uncritically as reliable. SQGibbon (talk) 07:45, 24 November 2013 (UTC)
There are several important points that should be noted:
1. She consider herself Bulgarian
2. In her Tweet Nina Dobrev said "I'm Bulgarian", not Bulgarian-Canadian. May be (it's my opinion) the article must beginning "Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian actress..." or "...is Bulgarian actress, living in Canada". But the second example is not full correct, because now she live in Atlanta, USA and I think that must stay only "...Bulgarian actress". Because in "Early life" we learn that she was moved to Canada.
3. You talking about the article Bulgarian Canadians and may be you are saw the explaining of this concept, I mean "...some Bulgarians are not Canadian citizens, others are dual citizens.". Nina was born in Bulgaria in 1989 and was moved to Canada in 1991, which mean that she is part of the last generation Bulgarian immigrants in Canada (after 10th November 1989), which are bulgarian citizens, born in Bulgaria, but not always be Canadian citizens. Actually in the most cases they are only with Bulgarian citizenship. If she has Canadian citizenship also (We are not sure)- yes, she is Bulgarian Canadian
4. I do not understand the standpoint of User: Nymf: "...kind of relation to Russian nationality, e.g. if she is ethnically Russian ("relation" is the keyword here, meaning if her parents or grand parents were Russian)". Actually "nationality" and "ethnicity" are two different categories, for example: In Russia are many ethnic groups (Kalmyks, Yakuts, Tatars and others), which are Russian by nationality, because these people are born in Russia, the most of them are with Russian family names, but not by ethnicity. Or how was say one professor: "The nation is ethnic group with state and army" :)
5. The most important is from what nationality is consider itself the person. For example Elena Paparizou was born, raised and living in Sweden, but she consider herself Greek (her parents are Greeks), not Swedish or Greek-Swedish. The band "Antique", which made her popular, is also created in Sweden, but Elena say "I'm Greek".--195.24.37.106 (talk) 18:09, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- If you look at the question Dobrev received, it was specifically if she had any "relation" to Russian nationality. I am guessing it is a language barrier, as having a relation to someone who has Russian citizenship bears no meaning whatsoever. If you are related to someone who is ethnically Russian, it does, however. Either way how you interpret it (citizenship or ethnicity), it was not a question about Dobrev specifically, but rather about her parents, grand parents, etc. Nymf (talk) 18:48, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- 1. So far one Tweet has been provided where she has said that she is Bulgarian. This does not mean she does not also consider herself Canadian, especially given the casual nature of Tweets and the constraint placed on how long a message can be.
- 2. A link was provided above to another Tweet where she stated that she is Canadian. Not Bulgarian, not Bulgarian-Canadian, nor Bulgarian living in Canada. In fact, that Tweet was actually part of a campaign to get people to sign up for insurance and would be an example of a more formal Tweet. But all of this is mostly irrelevant according to WP:OPENPARA where what matters is where she was living, her permanent residence, when she became notable. She spent two years in Bulgaria and was not notable. She then lived at least 16 years in Canada which is when she became notable. For the purpose of Wikipedia and the lead sentence at the very least she is a Canadian actress. Where she was born and the status of her citizenship re: Bulgaria and Canada are properly discussed in the main body of the article. If it can be shown using a reliable source, and without using original research, that she retained her Bulgarian citizenship then it might be appropriate to mention that in the lead: "Bulgarian-Canadian actress".
- 3,4,5 etc. It's also important to understand that with respect to Wikipedia in general and the lead sentence in particular, that the technical definitions used by Wikipedia do not always align with how people use those words. SQGibbon (talk) 20:17, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
- In Tweet Nina said that she is Bulgarian by nationality. Simply and clear. Everything else are just interpretations, some of which (like Nymf's opinion by "parents, grandparents, grandgrandparents and others parents
) is not relevant on that dispute. Bulgarian Canadian is absolutely correct in this case, by me. --Sumatro (talk) 07:40, 26 November 2013 (UTC)
- False. You've got some serious issues acknowledging one's statement. And Bulgarian Canadian doesn't mean she's Bulgarian. It means she's Canadian which I totally agree.--Rebelheartous (talk) 20:49, 29 November 2013 (UTC)
- In Tweet Nina said that she is Bulgarian by nationality. Simply and clear. Everything else are just interpretations, some of which (like Nymf's opinion by "parents, grandparents, grandgrandparents and others parents
Quote from "Struma": "Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian"- Усмихнатата, красива и позитивна българка Нина Добрев/The smiling, beautiful and positive Bulgarian Nina Dobrev --Sumatro (talk) 17:16, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- Great! It's verifying and reliable source, which say that she is Bulgarian. Now, we have this source and Nina's Tweet, when she say "I 'm Bulgarian". I hope Nymf to be happy. --JanHusCz (talk) 17:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- Native newspapers are obviously going to report people who were born in Bulgaria as Bulgarians. For example, the article on Olga Kurylenko makes it very clear that shes does not carry Ukrainan or Russian citizenship, yet native newspapers calls her Ukrainan and Russian ([22], [23], [24], etc). You cannot use that to source citizenship. Nymf (talk) 17:47, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- "Struma" is serious newspaper and can use like reliable source. Your opinion about "native newspapers", which you say, is absolutely wrong and looks too abusive. Your example with Kurylenko is too different, because she was born and has citizenship of Soviet Union, which today doesn't exist and she is with mixed descent. I know nothing about Ukrainian Law and I cannot comment other by this case. But it's not relevant on our dispute. In Talk page are presenting many sources (include Nina's Tweet), which say that Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian. JanHusCz (talk) 19:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- It certainly is relevant and proves my point regarding citizenship, ethnicity and newspapers. Qwyrxian, any chance you have some time over for that RfC you mentioned? Nymf (talk) 22:19, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- Let me say this as politely as possible: how bout you drop the ridiculous attitude? At this point, we don't need an RfC. We have two reliable sources: her own direct statement about her nationality, and the explicit statement of a newspaper. You don't get to say "Oh, that's a Bulgarian newspaper, that doesn't count." That type of attitude, when it occurs in areas of discretionary sanctions, is actually grounds for an immediate block. That's abssolutely no different from saying "US newspapers can't be used as sources for information about events that happen in the US because they're obviously biased in favor of the US". Such a position has absolutely no basis in Wikipedia policy, and is not acceptable. I'm going to boldly fix the article to say "Bulgarian Canadian", because we have 2 distinct reliable sources that both meet WP:RS. If you want to revert, fine, but you take it to WP:RSN or somewhere other noticeboard--the burden now lies on you to argue that two normally completely acceptable sources somehow don't meet our rules. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:16, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- How about that reading comprehension? I'll just remove the article from my watchlist. Have fun dealing with the vandals (in case you are trigger happy, I do not mean the people who partook in this discussion). Nymf (talk) 10:51, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- How about the Wikipedia policy on WP:CIVILITY? Can't the lack of that get one blocked as well? There are two big problems here (well, three, when you throw in the civility issue). One is that it's not at all clear that either of these sources (one a tweet and the other very much a puff-piece -- the fact that both of these were very informal does legitimately call into question whether they are reliable sources) are using "nationality" to mean the same thing as citizenship. It turns out that throughout the world people use that word to mean different things including citizenship, being born somewhere, race, ethnicity, and so on. Neither of these sources makes clear what is meant. As you are no doubt aware this is a very common occurrence on Wikipedia where we mean one thing and non-Wikifolk mean something else. Like with the word "notable". How many times have you had to explain to a non-Wiki-experienced editor that we have a technical definition for "notability" that does not necessarily match the common meaning of the word? The other issue is that, with the exception of you, everyone arguing for inclusion of "Bulgarian" in the lead sentence have been single-purpose accounts who have only made edits to articles related to Bulgaria. This does not mean their edits run afoul of Wikipedia policies or guidelines but for any experienced editor it is a huge red flag waving in the wind that calls for extra vigilance on our part to make sure a nationalistic agenda is not being pushed on Wikipedia.
- Let me say this as politely as possible: how bout you drop the ridiculous attitude? At this point, we don't need an RfC. We have two reliable sources: her own direct statement about her nationality, and the explicit statement of a newspaper. You don't get to say "Oh, that's a Bulgarian newspaper, that doesn't count." That type of attitude, when it occurs in areas of discretionary sanctions, is actually grounds for an immediate block. That's abssolutely no different from saying "US newspapers can't be used as sources for information about events that happen in the US because they're obviously biased in favor of the US". Such a position has absolutely no basis in Wikipedia policy, and is not acceptable. I'm going to boldly fix the article to say "Bulgarian Canadian", because we have 2 distinct reliable sources that both meet WP:RS. If you want to revert, fine, but you take it to WP:RSN or somewhere other noticeboard--the burden now lies on you to argue that two normally completely acceptable sources somehow don't meet our rules. Qwyrxian (talk) 10:16, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- It certainly is relevant and proves my point regarding citizenship, ethnicity and newspapers. Qwyrxian, any chance you have some time over for that RfC you mentioned? Nymf (talk) 22:19, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- "Struma" is serious newspaper and can use like reliable source. Your opinion about "native newspapers", which you say, is absolutely wrong and looks too abusive. Your example with Kurylenko is too different, because she was born and has citizenship of Soviet Union, which today doesn't exist and she is with mixed descent. I know nothing about Ukrainian Law and I cannot comment other by this case. But it's not relevant on our dispute. In Talk page are presenting many sources (include Nina's Tweet), which say that Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian. JanHusCz (talk) 19:30, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- Native newspapers are obviously going to report people who were born in Bulgaria as Bulgarians. For example, the article on Olga Kurylenko makes it very clear that shes does not carry Ukrainan or Russian citizenship, yet native newspapers calls her Ukrainan and Russian ([22], [23], [24], etc). You cannot use that to source citizenship. Nymf (talk) 17:47, 30 November 2013 (UTC)
- I don't generally deal with adding content to articles (I patrol new changes looking for vandalism, nationalistically inspired edits, politically motivated edits, MOS concerns, and so on) so it could be that I'm taking too narrow a view of what constitutes nationality for the lead sentence. But if one of the purposes of WP:OPENPARA is to prevent people adding every single ethnicity to a biographical article that can possibly be found in the subject's past then I'm not sure where that line is drawn. If you have experience in dealing with biographical articles, especially GA or ideally FA ones, then perhaps you could explain to us the finer points of the issue? Very generally speaking when there is ambiguity with regard to information in the lead sentence we do not mention the contentious point in the lead sentence but wait to discuss it in the main body in order to explain the nuances. SQGibbon (talk) 17:44, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I'm aware of WP:CIVILITY, and was attempting to keep my message within it's bounds--my first draft was far less polite and more direct. The fact is, the two of you are now the ones violating Wikipedia's policies by conducting original research in attempting to figure out what a source "really means", despite the fact that the direct, explicit statement of both sources is that the subject is of the Bulgarian nationality. You're essentially setting a standard that could never be met, and I would argue that if we applied your standard, we would have to remove nationality from 99% of all lead sentences. I would warrant that we don't have any explicit statement anywhere stating that, oh, Jennifer Anniston had US and only US citizenship either now or at the time she became famous...and yet that is what you are asking for here, for Dobrev. And, based upon the response to these sources, a source where Anniston said, "Oh, yes, I'm an American" would not be enough, and a source where she answered the question, "What is your nationality", "American" would not be enough. You're setting a standard that cannot be met, and isn't met on the vast majority of other biographies (living or otherwise). You are correct that the purpose of WP:OPENPARA is to not allow the inclusion of non-critical ethnicities...but our sources here don't talk about ethnicity, and it's pure OR to argue, "Well, they said ethnicity, but we all know they didn't really mean ethnicity." Note that I would consider this matter quite differently if we had a source of any type stating or implying that she is only of Canadian nationality. But we have 1) 2 sources that say she is also Bulgarian, and 2) every reason to believe that she would likely also have Bulgarian nationality unless she took deliberate steps to remove that nationality, which we have seen not a single piece of evidence to support. When both the explicit sources and the implicit "rationale" align, I don't see how we can continue to keep this out. Finally, I just want to say that before these two most recent sources appeared, I believe that we were correct in keeping out Bulgarian, since we never before had a specific statement of nationality--I'm in no way trying to argue that we were historically wrong. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:26, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- I don't generally deal with adding content to articles (I patrol new changes looking for vandalism, nationalistically inspired edits, politically motivated edits, MOS concerns, and so on) so it could be that I'm taking too narrow a view of what constitutes nationality for the lead sentence. But if one of the purposes of WP:OPENPARA is to prevent people adding every single ethnicity to a biographical article that can possibly be found in the subject's past then I'm not sure where that line is drawn. If you have experience in dealing with biographical articles, especially GA or ideally FA ones, then perhaps you could explain to us the finer points of the issue? Very generally speaking when there is ambiguity with regard to information in the lead sentence we do not mention the contentious point in the lead sentence but wait to discuss it in the main body in order to explain the nuances. SQGibbon (talk) 17:44, 1 December 2013 (UTC)
- "The fact is, the two of you are now the ones violating Wikipedia's policies by conducting original research in attempting to figure out what a source "really means", despite the fact that the direct, explicit statement of both sources is that the subject is of the Bulgarian nationality." Wait a second, are you saying that we are violating Wikipedia policy simply because we are questioning the validity of some sources on a talk page? Since when is critically examining the reliability of sources on a talk page a violation of Wikipedia policy? Can you point out that policy or guideline?
- "You're setting a standard that cannot be met, and isn't met on the vast majority of other biographies (living or otherwise)." This is not true. Please read WP:OPENPARA. We do not need a definitive statement of citizenship from a reliable source in order to put in the lead something like "Dobrev is a Canadian actress" because we have plenty of sources that indicate she had been living in Canada as a Canadian for some 16 years when she became notable. That is sufficient for stating that she is Canadian. She spent the first two years of her life in Bulgaria, which is worth noting, and she might be proud of and even claim Bulgaria as her ethnicity and/or heritage but that is not the same as claiming citizenship which I think we need since the other criteria listed in WP:OPENPARA are not being met.
- "it's pure OR to argue, 'Well, they said ethnicity, but we all know they didn't really mean ethnicity.'" No it's not. Questioning what a source means is not original research. We have a guideline for dealing with Twitter specifically because it can be problematic. And we do not accept everything a reliable source states just because they say it. The New York Times is generally considered a reliable source but if there's something that is clearly opinion or reporting a rumor or any of many other possible caveats then we might not include that information. As editors we are called upon to give some thought to what our sources state and if their sources are reliable or not. Otherwise Wikipedia would merely be a collection of quotes from sources instead of a critically assembled summary of what reliable sources state.
- If an ambiguous Tweet and an ambiguous puff piece from a source whose intent with that piece is to appeal to Bulgarian nationalism (by claiming Dobrev as one of their own) are sufficient for establishing citizenship then fine, I'm on board. Questioning the weight people are giving to those sources is not original research nor is it unreasonable. SQGibbon (talk) 18:33, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
I'm sorry, if my opinion looks abusive or not civility, but I think that the only one problem of users SQGibbon and Nymf is Bulgaria. This point of view broke the Wikipedia rules by WP:CIVILITY and WP:NPOV. SQGibbon: "...everyone arguing for inclusion of "Bulgarian" in the lead sentence have been single-purpose accounts who have only made edits to articles related to Bulgaria." - sorry about the question, but from what nationality is you and do you edit articles related to your state? The most articles of all editors are related to their motherlands. It's not strange. It's not nationalistic. Wikipedia is need by users from other states, which can verify the information, because nobody know everything. For example if I want to edit article about Armenia, I will must to use Armenian literature, Armenian sources, armenian newspapers and will work together with users from Armenia. User Nymf: "Native newspapers are obviously going to report people who were born in Bulgaria as Bulgarians" - this is so wrong and so abusive... no comment. I don't want to be a judge, but dispute lose the right focus. Qwyrxian and JanHusCz are absolutely correct. We have two reliable sources, which say that Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian (In tweet Nina Dobrev said by nationality: "I'm Bulgarian"). That is the facts. And please, save savoir-vivre in discussion! --195.24.37.106 (talk) 16:43, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- As I stated above nearly all of my edits are reverting vandalism, POV-pushing, MOS issues and the like -- I rarely add content to articles. As far as me pushing a nationalistic agenda please feel free to peruse my edits and if you find anything that even remotely looks like me pushing my home country then I will concede the point. And yes, we do rely upon people who are knowledgeable about a subject to help shape articles pertaining to that subject. But we also see, every hour of every day, people pushing agendas like nationalism, politics, their favorite sports teams, celebrities, royal lineage, and so on. It is exhausting dealing with people who only use Wikipedia to promote their cause. When you have a group of editors who only edit articles relating to a certain subject (Bulgaria) and only edit articles that are tangentially related (Nina Dobrev) to that subject (Bulgaria) with the purpose of promoting that subject (Bulgaria) in that article (Dobrev) then that looks suspicious. These people are not editing her article because they love Vampire Diaries but because she was born in Bulgaria. Do you not see the difference? This is the only subject matter they are editing on Wikipedia. Even if you could find examples of me pushing my country you will also find tens of thousands of edits from me that have absolutely nothing to do with anything related to my country -- that's a huge difference. All experienced editors have seen this kind of POV-pushing over and over again; it is a real problem. There is no question that the two sources have stated that Dobrev is Bulgarian, the issue is what is meant by that claim? Is she still a citizen of Bulgaria or is it her ethnicity? That pertinent piece of information was left out of those sources but is the only thing that matters with regard to what goes in the lead sentence. Discussing her Bulgarian heritage should happen in the main body of the article -- there is no question about that.SQGibbon (talk) 18:33, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- SQGibbon, the first source asked her nationality, and she answered "Bulgarian". WP:OPENPARA says, "Context (location, nationality, or ethnicity); In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable." She said her nationality is Bulgarian. The only way to say that the requirements of that guideline are not met is to assume that when she answered the question about "nationality" she didn't mean "nationality". Note that citizenship doesn't even factor into the question, because that's not what our guideline requires. I don't understand how you can justify the exclusion--it's like you're saying that you know better what she meant than what she herself said.
- Having said that, to the IP (195), your statements are 100% out of line and are nearly enough to get you blocked (if you had an account). No, the vast majority of Wikipedia editors don't make edits just about their "motherland". Hell, I don't even feel like I have a motherland. And I edit about subjects all over the world, many of which I know almost nothing about. For example, I have never seen or heard of Dobrev outside of this article--I never seen any of her TV shows or movies. I, and I'm sure, SQGibbon, edit articles on people and subjects from dozens of countries. So you need to take your (195's) nationalist attitude to another website, because it has absolutely no business here whatsoever. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:37, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- Let me add a little to my response to SQGibbon: you said her Twitter statement is ambiguous. Please explain how "What is your nationality" "I'm Bulgarian" is ambiguous. Particularly in light of the clarification that OPENPARA doesn't require that we establish citizenship, only nationality. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:42, 2 December 2013 (UTC)
- The relevant section of WP:OPENPARA does not actually state that nationality is an acceptable criterion for including that information in the lead. It says "citizenship" (which in Dobrev's case her being of Bulgarian citizenship has not been established) or "national or permanent resident" (she was not a national or permanent resident of Bulgaria when she became notable). There is nothing here about nationality being an acceptable criterion. (It is worth noting that the text in OPENPARA is slightly ambiguous for point 3. It mentions citizenship (which can be mentioned as per point 1) and ethnicity (which should not be mentioned as per point 2) and nationality which is not specifically mentioned either in points 1 or 2.)
- Furthermore, the very next point, which is about things that should not be mentioned in the lead, states "ethnicity" and "previous nationalities or the country of birth should not be mentioned in the opening sentence unless they are relevant to the subject's notability." This means the facts that she was born in Bulgaria, that her ethnicity is Bulgarian, and that her previous nationality was Bulgarian should not be mentioned in the lead sentence. It is reasonable, though, that if her Bulgarianness meets any of the points in the paragraph above then it would be allowable to mention it. The only one of those points that might qualify is her citizenship which has not been established.
- OK, so now when Dobrev was asked about her nationality what might she have meant? The OED lists several relevant definitions (and remember, the OED is a descriptive dictionary) "3B. A group of persons belonging to a particular nation; a nation; an ethnic or racial group." and "3A. National origin or identity; (Law) the status of being a citizen or subject of a particular state;". What this all means is that when someone claims country X as their nationality they might be referring to citizenship or they might be referring to their ethnic or racial groups. Citizenship cannot be uncritically inferred from that claim. In fact to assume that she meant "citizenship" when she said "nationality" strikes me as an example of OR -- claiming to know what she meant with that tweet. Our position is that we cannot know how she was using that word therefore it does not belong in the opening sentence. If in the main body we want to mention that she identifies as Bulgarian and Canadian then that's fine (we have tweets to support both claims). SQGibbon (talk) 00:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Um....are you reading a different guideline than I am? I know you're not, because you've quoted it. Here it is again: "In most modern-day cases this will mean the country of which the person is a citizen, national or permanent resident, or if notable mainly for past events, the country where the person was a citizen, national or permanent resident when the person became notable" (emphasis added). Dobrev stated that she is a Bulgarian national. The criterion is met. You don't get to make an argument about what she did or did not mean. She answered the question directly and explicitly. You keep harping on citizenship, but that is only one of the possible meanings there, and the guideline says it explicitly. If OPENPARA meant "Citizenship, or, in some cases, nationality" it would say that. You have no evidence that "Bulgarian" is a former nationality, or that she did not mean "nationality" when she answered "What is your nationality". Again, you are asking for the impossible: no one would ever make a statement to the effect of, "I was born in Bulgaria, and thus I was a citizen of Bulgaria. Then, I moved to Canada, and gained permanent residence in Canada. LAter, I also acquired Canadian citizenship, but I never gave up my Bulgarian citizenship, as this is not required under either Canadian or Bulgarian law." Yes, sure, a politician might have to say something about that if the legality of their status was in question, but an actress giving interviews is never going to state something so obtusely. And I would argue that if that is the standard you want to hold, you'll need to obtain a wider consensus, because then we should probably strip the nationality out of every person who does not make such an explicit statement--including those people who've resided primarily in one country, because, I mean, who knows--maybe they did secretly go to another country and obtain a second citizenship--maybe they even abandoned their home country citizenship for tax purposes? She was asked the question. She answered it. You are assuming that it's more likely that when she said nationality, she meant ethnicity. Well, I don't believe you get to make that assumption, and if you wish to do so, I think you'll need to take the matter to either WP:RSN or WP:BLPN. Qwyrxian (talk) 06:38, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- OK, so now when Dobrev was asked about her nationality what might she have meant? The OED lists several relevant definitions (and remember, the OED is a descriptive dictionary) "3B. A group of persons belonging to a particular nation; a nation; an ethnic or racial group." and "3A. National origin or identity; (Law) the status of being a citizen or subject of a particular state;". What this all means is that when someone claims country X as their nationality they might be referring to citizenship or they might be referring to their ethnic or racial groups. Citizenship cannot be uncritically inferred from that claim. In fact to assume that she meant "citizenship" when she said "nationality" strikes me as an example of OR -- claiming to know what she meant with that tweet. Our position is that we cannot know how she was using that word therefore it does not belong in the opening sentence. If in the main body we want to mention that she identifies as Bulgarian and Canadian then that's fine (we have tweets to support both claims). SQGibbon (talk) 00:46, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Does "national resident" equal nationality? Admittedly I do not believe I've ever heard the phrase "national resident" before so it might. Or are you interpreting that as "citizen, national, or permanent resident" (with the Oxford comma)? If the latter case I would expect it to be written as "a national". If it means "national resident" then I don't think it applies here as she is clearly not a resident of Bulgaria.
- "You don't get to make an argument about what she did or did not mean. She answered the question directly and explicitly." This is wrong on both counts. I am not arguing she meant anything specific at all; you are claiming that she meant something very specific with her claim. She did not answer the question explicitly because as I showed using the OED, "nationality" can mean several different things and those differences are relevant here. I have no idea what she meant. If you think she meant something specific that would qualify her using these criteria then it's up to you to demonstrate that she meant that thing.
- "And I would argue that if that is the standard you want to hold, you'll need to obtain a wider consensus, because then we should probably strip the nationality out of every person who does not make such an explicit statement" This is wrong. The guideline gives several ways to meet the requirements with the easiest being where someone was living when they became notable. But in cases where there is ambiguity then we would need something more concrete.
- "You are assuming that it's more likely that when she said nationality, she meant ethnicity." Where do you get this? I said nothing of the sort. What I said is that "nationality" has several different meanings and that I have no idea what she meant. You are the one assuming she meant something that meets the criteria laid out in OPENPARA for including "Bulgarian" in the lead.
- Let me try to summarize my position in a more organized manner:
- Citizenship. Is she a citizen of Bulgaria? Maybe. She claimed that her nationality is Bulgarian. Unfortunately "nationality" can instead of citizenship mean race or ethnicity. Without further clarification we cannot know which definition she meant. Fail, but this could change with a reliable source that confirms she kept her Bulgarian citizenship.
- National resident. She is not a national resident (whatever that means exactly) of Bulgaria. Fail.
- Permanent resident. She is not a permanent resident of Bulgaria. Fail.
- Ethnicity should not be emphasized. Her ethnicity is Bulgarian. This should not be mentioned. Fail.
- Previous nationalities should not be mentioned. Bulgarian is a previous nationality. It is left open if this applies to nationalities that are still in effect. Fail/Maybe.
- Country of birth should not be mentioned. She was born and lived in Bulgaria for two years but now lives in Canada/US. Should not mention her place of birth. Fail.
- What it all comes to as best as I can tell is that citizenship is the only criterion that would justify inclusion of "Bulgarian" in the lead sentence. "Nationality" can mean citizen, race, or ethnicity but it's only "citizen" that would meet the criterion for inclusion. We do not as of yet know which of these she meant. The only other possibility I see is if "national resident" or "national" means something different than what I understand but so far that point has not been established. SQGibbon (talk) 17:55, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- Oh, Oh, Oh! That discussion is just infinite! What mean "She not mean nationality. Maybe she mean ethnicity, or race, or nation...". Just unbelievable! In tweet The Nina's answer is absolutely clear "Nationality - Bulgarian". Your interpretations about nationality are non-sens. What you think that Bulgarian is previous nationality? From where you know that she has Canadian citizenship? I do not see a source, which confirm that theory. Actually her tweet show that Bulgarian are present nationality. And more - according to Constitution of Bulgaria (26(3)) Bulgarian is her present nationality, because she can not lose her Bulgarian citizenship. By Law she is Bulgarian from everywhere! OK, you say that Constitution is original research and cannot use here and search a source, where is saying "Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian". And now we have these sources (absolutely sure and relable sources), which prove that. Before, when you said she is Canadian, you said "nationality and citizenship are one thing". Now we have these sources but I see opinions like "She not mean nationality", "Bulgarian newspapers going to report people born in Bulgaria as Bulgarians". In previous comment you talking about the POV-pushing and nationalism like occurrence in Wikipedia. About that you are right and we often see that unpleasantly phenomenon. Many of comments here prove that here exist some kind of Pro-Canadian POV-pushing. Look at all Talk page! Here are presenting more than these 2 sources. All of these sources - books, sites, newspapers - said that Nina Dobrev is Bulgarian and no one that is Canadian. What you want more? It is not honestly by me. The fact that I edit articles related to Bulgaria doesn't mean that I'm nationalist. I'm against nationalism and every harmful ideology. JanHusCz (talk) 20:19, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
- What it all comes to as best as I can tell is that citizenship is the only criterion that would justify inclusion of "Bulgarian" in the lead sentence. "Nationality" can mean citizen, race, or ethnicity but it's only "citizen" that would meet the criterion for inclusion. We do not as of yet know which of these she meant. The only other possibility I see is if "national resident" or "national" means something different than what I understand but so far that point has not been established. SQGibbon (talk) 17:55, 3 December 2013 (UTC)
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