Talk:Michael Grimm (politician)

Protection?

I would like to edit this page to add information about Michael Grimm's political views. How can I do that? Mackabean (talk) 18:36, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Hates Vessen

Like all Grimms, Michael hates Vessen... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 4.30.33.201 (talk) 18:06, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Service as Police Officer

This section states he worked in a variety of capacities as a police officer or police support employee. It seems oddly organized. I can't imagine he would go from FBI Special Agent to US Marshal to FBI Police (Uniformed) to clerk. Those are in three different organizations. I'm not saying it's impossible or that he didn't, but it isn't sourced.

Michael Grimm entered the FBI as a professional support employee in 1991. In 1995, he entered the FBI Academy in Quantico Station, Virginia. He graduated as a special agent and was certified to become an undercover agent. He became a US Marshal and uniformed FBI Police Officer. He began as an FBI clerk and transitioned into undercover agent work, eventually working in the FBI Gambino Squad and was responsible for learning about the inside activities of Peter Gotti, John Gotti's brother.[3] Grimm worked for the FBI as an agent for 9 years.

--Daysleeper47 (talk) 14:01, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

The first commenter is correct because despite what the source might say, no FBI agent goes on to become a uniformed FBI Police Officer (a non-agent position), and the only way he'd become a US Marshal is if he left the FBI and joined the US Marshals Service. This needs to be reordered and fact-checked.

Linux attack

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2012/09/27/ubuntu-gate/

A RS for the claim? Hcobb (talk) 13:59, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Status as Attorney

A user recently added "attorney" to the summary list of Mr. Grimm's various careers. While I see that he graduated from law school, I do not see a mention elsewhere in the article that he ever practiced as a lawyer. Without this fact, I think describing Mr. Grimm as an attorney is inappropriate. Yitzhak1995 (talk) 14:26, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Overkill -- "attorney" as a common noun does not require Bar Association membership. The fact appears salient to the requirements to become an FBI agent in the first place: Law is one of the five choices for a Special Agent for the FBI. [1]. Specifically To qualify for the Law Critical Skill a candidate must qualify under the Law Entry Program (i.e., have a JD degree from a resident law school). As we mention his experience as a Special Agent for the FBI, it is reasonable to also list the specialized training he held for that job. Would you rather we just state that he holds a J.D. degree in law? Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:57, 27 September 2013 (UTC)

Schooling & Professional Timelines

Mr. Grimm is described as entering the marines in 1989 and deploying to Iraq a year later yet he is described as receiving his BBA from Baruch in 1994. He would have had to begin his studies in 1990 to receive the 4yr BBA degree. How could he be both in Iraq and a student at Baruch at the same time?

Also, there is no timeline of what he was doing between 2002 when he graduated law school and 2010 when he ran for political office. I agree with a previous Talk Page poster that the chronology of events (military, FBI, police,biz sch, law sch,RE investor, biz owner, etc) needs to be made more clear. As it stands now, it is confusing at best and questionable at worst. Barkway (talk) 00:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

arrest of fundraiser

I've restored the paragraph about the recent arrest of a fundraiser for Grimm's 2010 campaign. The material is well-sourced, balanced, and relates directly to Grimm's 2010 campaign. More details, which tie the matter to Grimm, are available from the NY Daily News[2]. GabrielF (talk) 05:06, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Grimm has not been implicated in any wrongdoing regarding the arrest of Durand. In fact Durand raised money for other campaigns as well. Unless/until Grimm is implicated in this particular issue, it's not appropriate to include it in his WP:BLP. CFredkin (talk) 16:26, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

OK. I just saw and read the second source you provided. I agree that it should stay. Self-reverting.... CFredkin (talk) 19:27, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Grimm threatens to throw reporter over Capitol balcony some day

http://gawker.com/a-new-york-congressman-just-lost-it-on-camera-with-a-re-1511301107

Please add http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/grimm-threatens-reporter-sotu

The confrontation began Tuesday when Michael Scotto, a reporter for New York cable news station NY1, asked Grimm about a Justice Department investigation into his campaign finances. After cutting the interview short, Grimm told Scotto, "You ever do that to me again I'll throw you off this (expletive) balcony." He also threatened to "break (Scotto) in half." NY1 posted video of the incident on its website.

Grimm later issued a statement saying he was "extremely annoyed" with Scotto and doubted he was the "first member of Congress to tell off a reporter." And in fact he was probably not the only Republican member of Congress to issue a death threat to a member of the press that he disagreed with but was certainly one of the few dumb enough to get caught on camera doing so.

All over multiple news many source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.121.23.59 (talk) 06:35, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Sure there are lots of sources, but before we add a sort of Grimm fairy tale to this article about a mean nasty ogre of a congresscritter who goes around threatening to break men in half and dash them from balconies, remember we are writing an encyclopedia here and context is key. His remarks were intemperate, perhaps, but a fair reading would call it hyperbole. Jonathunder (talk) 15:36, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Anytime an elected member of Congress, any party, threatens to physically harm someone, and there is proof, that is news. It goes into the fact pattern for that elected official, especially if the Speaker's office asks for an investigation. The inclusion of the event in his Wikipedia article should be kept free of partisanship, however. Sjkoblentz (talk) 15:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at Jonathunder's suggestion that a physical threat issued by a government official under federal investigation ought to be considered "hyperbole," especially in this context. In any event, the article should indicate that the entire post-interview discussion was recorded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.254.191.182 (talk) 16:02, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Emote however you will, but edit the article dispassionately. It should also be noted the Grimm has since apologized. Jonathunder (talk) 16:41, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

An apology is not an excuse to keep the incident to be added to the article, moreover it is an additional phrase to the subsection. 83.109.2.131 (talk) 17:35, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

I have no problem stating that Grimm stated "I was wrong..." and include the entire statement, but there also needs to inclusion that "In Grimm's first public statement on incident, the Congressman stated “I verbally took the reporter to task and told him off, because I expect a certain level of professionalism and respect, especially when I go out of my way to do that reporter a favor,” he wrote. “I doubt that I am the first member of Congress to tell off a reporter, and I am sure I won’t be the last.” Then the record is accurate, without emotion, without politics. Sjkoblentz (talk) 21:20, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

That seems reasonable. Jonathunder (talk) 22:53, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

Yep, this incident, threatening a reporter, certainly deserves being summarized on this page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.160.49.206 (talk) 01:00, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

totally needs adding. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.180.243.18 (talk) 03:38, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

I am disturbed to see that the conservative double standard is still alive and well on wikipedia. If a Democrat had been caught on camera delivering this kind of death threat------- It would have long ago been posted word for word along with the spooky video. I quote the REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN: If you ever do this again to me I will throw off you the balcony.... and then he weirdly comes back and says "boy, I will rip you in half" But, since it is a Republican, we should just laugh it off as a funny thing. Dem congressmen say these funny kind of things all the time? Just because they are not as dumb or as full of themselves to worry about saying such things on camera doesn't mean we should single out a decent honest Republican Congressman for saying what all the other congressmen say all the time to reporters off camera????????????? Does anyone besides conspiracy nuts believe such things? The highly notable death threats that this Republican congressman made on camera to this reporter needs to be added word for word to his wikipedia page along with the strange video of it all.Lance Friedman (talk) 05:30, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

There are countless places on the Internet for this kind of general political discussion, but this isn't one of them. Stay on topic, please. Jonathunder (talk) 15:25, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Unless you are from Staten Island, you probably never heard of this guy till you saw the viral video of him harassing a reporter. The incident after the State of the Union Speech is at least as "encyclopedic" as the high school he went to, the medals he won while in the Marines, etc. Timothy Horrigan (talk) 22:47, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Which is why I added this. I was surprised it wasn't included already. This was more widely reported than the "break in half" part, which is surely hyperbole. Throwing someone over a balcony? Well that's straight up gangsta. I don't see why the brief part I added is problematic. Two kinds of pork (talk) 00:13, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Cap in "History of Violent Incidents"

The "H" should be lowercase in the line: "1999 At a nightclub, brandished His service..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.50.157.152 (talk) 20:01, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

Reliable sources

@Tiller54, after arguing that Forbes and the Anchorage Daily News aren't reliable here, there's no way you're going to get away with arguing that an un-named source and some political director are reliable here.CFredkin (talk) 00:08, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

That's not what was said, and you know that. A letter from a reader in a newspaper is not a reliable source. NY1's political director certainly is a reliable source and just 3 weeks ago you had no problem with said source. Tiller54 (talk) 00:14, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

That's exactly what you said. The fact that Begich made the 2 votes I proposed adding to his bio is not in question. In addition to the 2 primary sources indicating that, I provided 3 sources to indicate the significance of the votes. According to you, the citation to Politico was not reliable because it referenced robocalls, the citation to Forbes was not reliable because "anybody can be a contributor to Forbes", and the citation to the ADN was not reliable because it was a letter to the editor. These secondary sources were not being used to establish facts, they were being used to demonstrate the notability of the votes. In this case, an un-named source and the political director for a local news station are making allegations which may not even be factually accurate. That's not going to fly.CFredkin (talk) 00:27, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

No, that is not what I said and claiming that it is is what's "not going to fly". A Politico article reporting that the NSCC are attacking a Senator isn't relevant to said Senator's bio, just like a Huffington Post article reporting that the DCCC are attacking Grimm isn't relevant to Grimm's bio. A letter to the editor is obviously not a reliable source. An article by a Forbes contributor, not a reporter or journalist, but by a member of the public, is not reliable. Anyone can become a Forbes contributor and there are thousands of them. But, none of that is relevant to this article. A named journalist and political director is clearly a reliable source and claiming otherwise is absurd. As I've pointed out, you were happy with the section 3 weeks ago, so attempting to remove it now on the basis that "one reference isn't reliable, therefore this different one isn't either" is not going to fly. Carrying over a discussion from another talk page also isn't going to fly. Tiller54 (talk) 00:51, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

No consensus for removal of long standing content. I would suggest following the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, which means retaining the status before the bold edit was made and reverted; i.e. "leave the article in the condition it was in before the Bold edit was made" (often called the status quo ante). --IIIraute (talk) 17:03, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I do agree with Illraute, that material that is in the article should stay during discussion, if the material was already discussed and added into the article. Also, the reasoning given by CFredkin is absurd. There is no relation between an actual news report(sourced used here) and a letter to the freaking editor(denied as being a source on Begich article). Further, the fact that CFredkin does not know that should raise questions about his many edits to BLP articles. Thanks. Dave Dial (talk) 18:24, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

this was already discussed at AN/I

[3] has a discussion on the use of the "fucking" quote. Please note the opinions of the editors at the AN/I noticeboard. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:16, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

• I have read the previous central discussion and the edit. I can confirm that it isn't ok to include the "fucking" quote or the unnamed rumour bit. I have protected the article in the WP:BLP-compliant state rather than block people. --John (talk) 22:48, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

The Guardian: "Much of the ensuing exchange is inaudible in the recording, but according to a transcript from NY1, Grimm said: "Let me be clear to you, you ever do that to me again I'll throw you off this fucking balcony."

Scotto replies: "Why? I just wanted to ask you," before Grimm says, "No, no, you're not man enough, you're not man enough. I'll break you in half. Like a boy."" [4]

"In 2011, The New Yorker Magazine reported that Grimm had been the subject of an internal investigation into allegations he abused his authority as a FBI agent in a nightclub in 1999. According to the article, written by Evan Ratliff, the incident resulted from a dispute between Grimm and his date's husband. A former NYPD officer working as a bouncer at the time said that Grimm remarked about the husband, "I’ll fucking make him disappear where nobody will find him." Grimm reportedly then returned to the nightclub twice, pulled out his gun once, and brought FBI and NYPD officers the second time." → [5] --IIIraute (talk) 03:40, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

And the point is what? Kindly read the AN/I discussion. Though you show another place in the BLP which may run afoul of policy - especially requiring "strong sourcing" for any contentious claims - where the only actual source is a New Yorker article. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:05, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

This matter is/was not for ANI to decide. The incident received worldwide news coverage - more than enough reliable secondary sources are available → WP:RS:

Reuters [6]

Germany:

Süddeutsche Zeitung [7]

Die Zeit [8]

Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung [9]

United Kingdom

BBC [10]

The Guardian [11]

France

Le Figaro [12]

Spain

El País [13]

Antena 3 [14]

Italy

la Repubblica [15]

Austria

Die Presse [16]

Canada

The Globe and Mail [17]

Belgium

La Libre Belgique [18]

Australia

The Australian [19]

ABC News [20]

Brazil

O Globo [21]

Ukraine

Ukrinform [22]

Peru

La República [23]

Armenia

Armenpress [24]

India

The Times of India [25]

Israel

The Times of Israel [26]

New Zealand

Fairfax New Zealand [27] --IIIraute (talk) 21:04, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

• To get this straight: "As for "ANI making a decision", that's clearly not what happened. There was a complaint and it was withdrawn, which is why the ANI discussion was closed."

  There was no consensus for the removal of long standing WP:RS content. Please follow the Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle, which means retaining the status before the bold edit was made and reverted; i.e. "leave the article in the condition it was in before the Bold edit was made" (often called the status quo ante).

  The long standing content (expletive deleted) was restored by User:Two kinds of pork, after it had been removed by User:Collect who - as evident from this talk page - did not have editor consensus for such a removal!

  There are more than enough (see above↑↑) reliable secondary sources that support the inclusion of: "...as well as threatening to throw Sotto over the balcony." - see, for example →

  Reuters: "U.S. congressman apologizes for threatening to throw reporter over balcony." --IIIraute (talk) 01:22, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Excuse me, but I was totally unaware of any discussion that this was a bone of contention at wikipedia until today. I didn't even know there was a "fucking" quote, just that he threatened to pull a Marcellus Wallace on a reporter. I support adding the balcony toss back in as I wrote it, but I'm not married to the idea.Two kinds of pork (talk) 02:22, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

The concept that this was more than rhetorical as a threat was not established in any place, and the discussions established that the WEIGHT that should be given to the entire incident did absolutely not merit more than the two paragraphs which have been stable at this point. If you wish to add the balcony language, please get WP:CONSENSUS first as opposed to edit warring to get your version in the BLP. The requirements of WP:BLP are extremely strong, and thus your onus is also strong for any such claims being placed back into the BLP. The material you wish to add was not long-standing as you aver. Cheers Collect (talk) 11:18, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Nothing has been "stable at this point" - you were the editor repeatedly removing the content; e.g. here, here, here and here - and then (as pointed out by User:Carrite) the article got protected against editor consensus.

BBC: "A congressman who threatened to throw a reporter off a balcony after President Barack Obama's State of the Union address has apologised for his actions."

Reuters: "U.S. congressman apologizes for threatening to throw reporter over balcony." Both of the WP:RS are reporting about Grimm "apologizing" for "threatening" Scotto, so obviously the "threat" has been established. --IIIraute (talk) 17:50, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Per WP:BLP the addition of contentious material requires a positive consensus for inclusion. Wikipedia is neither a tabloid nor a newspaper, and if a newspaper says something which is contentious but which is of undue weight in a BLP, then the editors here are not required to include it sans consensus. Collect (talk) 12:49, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

What "contentious material"? There is nothing contentious about the fact that Grimm threatened Scotto - the incident received worldwide news coverage, and is (as pointed out by User:TimothyHorrigan) probably what Grimm is most famous for. --IIIraute (talk) 18:40, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I tend to agree, though I still feel my edit is more appropriate in terms of neutrality. Two kinds of pork (talk) 21:23, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

It is your neutral (expletive deleted) version I have restored - we are talking about the inclusion of the words: "...as well as threatening to throw Sotto over the balcony." → see BBC and Reuters sources above.

This wording was removed by Collect twice, here & here --IIIraute (talk) 22:06, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

I must have looked at a different version. I would like to get a rough consensus before including even the balcony part, because edit wars are distressing. Collect seems quite reasonable to me (though his posts often require me to use a dictionary) and I'm sure he would be willing to include the balcony part even if he disagrees with it. Two kinds of pork (talk) 02:02, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

To my knowledge User:Tiller54, User:DD2K, User:Nomoskedasticity, User:TimothyHorrigan, User:Carrite, User:Anonimski, User:Michaelbusch, you and me have supported the inclusion of this content. (see talk page and revision history) --IIIraute (talk) 02:48, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I saw that I was pinged by a comment here due to my earlier editing on that article. I just want to say that I still support the inclusion of the quotes, as well as mentioning the balcony, since that material is central to the incident where the journalist was threatened. It's ridiculous that the info with most important part of the event is contested like this. Anonimski (talk) 07:19, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

You are correct, I do support the inclusion. As for inserting a version with the "expletive deleted", that's not necessary - Wikipedia isn't censored. Tiller54 (talk) 03:00, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I have now done an edit that restored the material that included the original quotes, the balcony info, and the description of the threat as a threat, due to the presented support for that version. Just describing it as a "Scotto interview" and deleting the central information about this incident is not really an improvement of the article's NPOV and general quality. - Anonimski (talk) 19:23, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Tool abuse

User:John has committed administrative tool abuse by sanitizing and full-protecting this article against consensus. His opinion of BLP applicability, while his own, is wrong. He is using tools to resolve a content dispute against policy and against consensus. Carrite (talk) 16:47, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

VIDEO LINK posted by New York Times to YouTube. Carrite (talk) 16:50, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

And HERE is another version. Carrite (talk) 16:53, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Um -- before leaping to conclusions, please read the AN/I discussion and the current BLP/N discussions. I would also point out that youtube is generally not usable on Wikipedia as a source. Cheers. Collect (talk) 18:29, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

That could be sourced to the NY Times or to the TV News program/station. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:09, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

A YouTube video is perfectly usable as a source. If the NY Times puts up a YouTube video, there ya go. Carrite (talk) 03:26, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Please note that WP:RS does not apply to how the NYT operates, but it does govern how Wikipedia operates. YouTube is basically not allowed for BLPs. Collect (talk) 13:41, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

WP:RS says nothing at all about Youtube, and for good reason. If Youtube hosts a video by a news organisation whose output is considered reliable, there's every reason to have faith in the content of the video. In this particular instance, the videos available from the news organisation employing the reporter whom Grimm threatened are excellent sources. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:02, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

[28] YouTube and other video-sharing sites are generally not considered reliable sources because anyone can create or manipulate a video clip and upload without editorial oversight, just as with a self-published website. IIRC, NBCNews "published" an audio of George Zimmerman which was later shown to have been improperly edited, as one reason why we do not use video or audio clips as sources. When dealing with living persons, the rule is that only strong sources are allowed, and thus sources which might have been edited are not allowed. We also have the obligation to write BLPs conservatively I the first place. Cheers. Collect (talk) 14:53, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

Ooh, fun game -- I can quote too! "However, official channels of notable organisations, such as Monty Python's channel, may be acceptable as primary sources if their authenticity can be confirmed, or as a secondary source if they can be trace to a reliable publisher." Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:59, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

And I found the clip pretty much unintelligible, and it does not include the prior part of the interview -- that is it may be quite "out of context." Or could you find the enunciation clear, and that you know what preceded the clip? Cheers. The idea of RS sourcing is that we must make sure that full context is presented -- just was the Zimmerman "clip" failed. Collect (talk) 17:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

We do not need to know "what preceded the clip", and we also don't have to do any other investigative original research. Highly prestigious publishing houses and renowned journalists have produced secondary sources that are available to us. It is not our responsibility to scrutinise their publications, statements, and conclusions. I expect them to do their jobs properly. There are enough reliable secondary sources available to support the inclusion of this incident to this article. I would suggest using the Reuters source (written by Thomas Ferraro) here, as well as the The Guardian article here or BBC article here --IIIraute (talk) 19:09, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

FBI section

Has a lengthy section about a single anecdote which was published by one source. The last sentence unfortunately does not appear to be sourced to any other source than the original writer - and basically is a complaint that Grimm did not ask for sealed records to be made public, which is his Constitutional right. One "source" is a political opponent asking for those records to be unsealed -- which also is not proof of much at all, and is "opinion" and not a factual RS source. A second source is the exact same press release from a political campaign. And the third sure reads a lot like the same press release. In short -- the hundred word or so section rests on a sinle article, and is likely WP:UNDUE unless we wish to make an issue of every living person who actually does not do what a political opponent asks for in press releases. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:55, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

BLP concerns re recent additions

(Ping User:Collect) Hi, I saw that you still had doubts about including some of the basic info from the incident. That section shouldn't really be problematic from a WP:BLP perspective - the part about "public figures" says that notable and well-documented incidents can be included. - Anonimski (talk) 20:04, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm sufficiently concerned by the tone of what has been written to request a re-write for NPOV, and I am sufficiently concerned with the sourcing to ask for a review of the sources. --John (talk) 21:36, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I think the sources have been reviewed pretty thoroughly (above). Is there a specific concern regarding use of a specific source? Nomoskedasticity (talk) 21:41, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The incident is not worth a huge amount of space in the BLP, and the requirement that "fucking" be used is likely to be UNDUE in any event. Also the part of the interview prior to the "incident" should also be sourced. The prior extant version covered the incident and met the requirements of NPOV as far as I can tell, and was deemed proper weight by a number of editors. The degree of "temper" vs. "threat" is one where we must be careful per WP:BLP else Ralph Kramden would be cited for promoting space travel. And the new re-inclusion of "allegations" by unnamed people is "right out" in the British usage. The source for the allegation bit was, by the way, reviewed and "found wanting." Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a campaign platform or political magazine. Cheers. Collect (talk) 21:43, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with you about the last point. We definitely do not want to get into "According to X, some un-named person made an unproven allegation Y" on a BLP, however good the source appears to be this is intrinsically against our norms. --John (talk) 21:46, 24 March 2014 (UTC)

The "allegations" were not done by "unnamed people". The New York Times: "Mr. Hardt (NY1's political director, Bob Hardt), in a posting on NY1’s website, wrote that this was not the first time Mr. Grimm had gotten into a heated confrontation with a reporter for the station.

“Following an interview with NY1’s Errol Louis in December of 2012, the congressman blew his top – off-camera,” Mr. Hardt wrote.

“After the interview,” he wrote, “Grimm became red-faced and started yelling at both Louis and me, alluding to settling the issue by ‘taking it outside’ with our political anchor – acting as if he were in a bar instead of a TV studio.”" here --IIIraute (talk) 05:00, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Your quote makes it clear that no actual "threat" occurred -- thanks for pointing out that using it here violates WP:BLP. The word "threat" has specific legal meaning which is clearly not applicable to what the person wrote. Collect (talk) 13:45, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

And I also agree with the temper vs threat portion.Two kinds of pork (talk) 01:01, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

...proposals? --IIIraute (talk) 01:31, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Status quo ante -- and getting back to rational WEIGHT in a BLP for what appears to be far more a matter of temper more than of any actual threat to murder anyone. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:42, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Follow the sources, please: e.g. from the NY Times, "delivering unusually vitriolic threats against a reporter"… Nomoskedasticity (talk) 13:57, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

And that in what way refers to the Bob Hardt source which does not use the word "threat" and which attributes no actual threats to Grimm -- which is the issue here -- the use of anonymous allegations about "threats" one of which clearly does not use the term "threats." It is not up to editors here to "interpret" things in sources -- if the Hardt reference does not use the term, we can not attribute it to him. "Heated confrontations" are not "threats". Cheers. (The NYTimes only uses "threat" with regard to the Scotto incident) Collect (talk) 14:24, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps you haven't paid attention to the section header, which makes it clear we are discussing the Scotto incident here. If you want to discuss a separate incident/issue, best to do so in a different section. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 14:39, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

No need, I've changed the section header. I share Collect's concerns. --John (talk) 18:24, 25 March 2014 (UTC)

IMHO, here, Nomoskedasticity was referring to the Scotto incident, in regard to Collects' claim "...what appears to be far more a matter of temper more than of any actual threat to murder anyone." - to which Nomoskedasticity replied: "Follow the sources, please: e.g. from the NY Times, "delivering unusually vitriolic threats against a reporter"…"

I am sorry, Collect, but your claim appears to be completely unsourced original research - also, I don't think anyone is claiming that Grimm threatened to "murder" Scotto - I don't know where Collect got that information from - however, Grimm "physically threatened" Scotto, "to throw him over the balcony" - that is a fact.

Please refrain from basing your argument on investigative original research, or other unsourced personal interpretation and conclusions. Highly prestigious publishing houses and renowned journalists have produced secondary sources that are available to us. It is not our responsibility to scrutinise their publications, statements, conclusions, and professional work. I am convinced they are doing their jobs, research, etc. properly. There are enough reliable secondary sources available to support the inclusion of this incident to this article.

BBC: "A congressman who threatened to throw a reporter off a balcony after President Barack Obama's State of the Union address has apologised for his actions."

Reuters: "U.S. congressman apologizes for threatening to throw reporter over balcony."

Los Angeles Times: "Rep. Michael Grimm apologizes for threats; reporter won't press charges. A reporter who was physically threatened by a member of Congress while conducting an interview after Tuesday night's State of the Union address says he has no plans to press charges."

Daily News: "The U.S. Capitol Police won’t seek charges against Staten Island Rep. Michael Grimm for threatening to throw NY1 reporter Michael Scotto off a Capitol balcony. The police dropped the case after Scotto told them he had no interest in pressing charges."

The New York Times: "Representative Michael G. Grimm of Staten Island, once considered a rising star in the Republican Party, touched off a political firestorm after delivering unusually vitriolic threats against a reporter inside the United States Capitol building on Tuesday night, just moments after the State of the Union speech."

"threat" (definition): "A statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not done." A threat is: "a statement of an intention" - and that statement was done - regardless whether Grimm really intended to put his statement in action, or not - he "threatened", i.e. he made "a statement of an intention" to Scotto, in retribution "for something Scotto had done", and to "not do it again" in the future - as otherwise, he is going to "throw him off a balcony"; in other words, Grimm made the statement of an intention to inflict physical harm on Scotto in retribution for Scottos' past actions, as well as with the intention to influence Scottos' future actions - that certainly "is" a threat, and there is absolutely no other way to describe it. --IIIraute (talk) 02:52, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Please, source after source indicates this was an idle threat, indicative of someone who lost his temper. Let's not make this more than it really is.Two kinds of pork (talk) 04:31, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

...so, you are saying he was not trying to influence Scottos' future actions? A lawmaker, who physically threatens a reporter "not to ask investigative questions"! I am sure you have a source for your "idle threat" theory. --IIIraute (talk) 04:38, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Grimm, by all RS accounts is a hothead. A simple search of his name with "hothead" will show you plenty of sources making that assessment. He's not a sociopath, and I'm troubled by attempts here to paint him as such.Two kinds of pork (talk) 05:48, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Anyway! I think I've made my point - let's hear some other editors opinions. --IIIraute (talk) 06:27, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

No-one is calling him a sociopath (I'm certainly not). It's a simple matter of pointing to what multiple sources have had to say about this issue. If he's a hothead in general, fine. But this incident is widely described as one in which he threatened Scotto. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 06:57, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

And the existing language in this article for some time was clear about the matter which is not a major life event, and should not get more than a couple of sentences. And the side bit about allegations simply does not have sufficient weight for being in the article at all. But it appears that two editors are anxious to portray Grimm as homicidal, and the sources do not back up that inference, so we can not use it. Collect (talk) 11:55, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

RfC for Michael Grimm (politician)

There is a slight dispute regarding this biography article's presentation of an incident. In a recorded interview, the politician Michael Grimm displayed intimidating behavior towards the journalist Michael Sctto, and multiple news sources described the behavior as threatening. However, it has been hard to reach consensus on how to describe it, and the opinions can be divided into two groups:

The "add" side

• Description of the incident as "Threats against journalist Michael Scotto" (the word "threat" can be found in multiple news sources)
• Inclusion of the quotes, as they were said. ("I'll break you in half, like a boy" and "Let me be clear to you, you ever do that to me again, I'll throw you off this fucking balcony")
• Slightly more detailed description of the event and the context surrounding it

The uninvolved Admin view

• I have read the previous central discussion and the edit. I can confirm that it isn't ok to include the "fucking" quote or the unnamed rumour bit. I have protected the article in the WP:BLP-compliant state rather than block people. --John (talk) 22:48, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

The "reduce" side

• Description of the incident as "Scotto interview"
• No inclusion of what was said, but a description of that instead
• Shorter description than suggested by "add" side

On the "reduce" side, some concerns arose about a possible breach of WP:BLP, and was presented as an argument against the "add" side. I couldn't personally find any problems though, because it seems to allow descriptions of well-sourced incidents/scandals for public figures (and this incident was also recorded).

Because of the disagreement here, I have now placed a request for comments, in order to find out what others think about this... Anonimski (talk) 17:46, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• Note this has been discussed in the past at WP:BLP/N (the most applicable noticeboard) with the consensus there being that BLPs are required to be written conservatively, and that Wikipedia is not a tabloid. The points made by the OP here are slightly misleading as to the issues involved. The status quo ante clearly covers the story without getting to UNDUE weight, and that remains my position. Emphasizing that a politician said "fucking" is not really encyclopedic, and there is no evidence that Grimm assaulted people by killing them, thus it appears the weight given by the stronger reliable sources is more than sufficient. Second: titles of sections must be NPOV and should never be stated as an accusation of anything about the subject of the BLP. Third: The statement as to the position I hold is that :

"*=====Scotto interview====="

On January 28, 2014, NY1-TV political reporter Michael Scotto was interviewing Grimm in a balcony-hallway of the U.S. Capitol building, asking him about his thoughts on the just-ended 2014 State of the Union Address. He then tried to question Grimm about his campaign finance controversies. Grimm stated that he would only discuss the State of the Union speech, and not the investigation; as Scotto started to mentioned the investigation again, Grimm walked off. Scotto then turned to the camera and implied that Grimm didn't want to face the issue on-camera. Grimm then appeared to intimidate Scotto, saying that he would "break (Scotto) in half", as well as threatening to throw Sotto over the balcony.

Grimm issued a statement defending his behavior, saying that he was annoyed by what he called a "disrespectful cheap shot" from Scotto. "I expect a certain level of professionalism and respect," Grimm said, "especially when I go out of my way to do that reporter a favor." The next day, Grimm contacted Scotto to offer an apology for his behavior, which Scotto deemed to be sincere. He also issued a written statement apologizing for his behavior, saying, "I shouldn’t have allowed my emotions to get the better of me and lose my cool."

Is of fully sufficient weight for the incident, contains sufficient information appropriate for an encyclopedia article about Grimm, and not just about the interview, and is in accord with WP:BLP in all particulars. Unless,of course, the goal is to violate WP:NPOV for particular politicians. Cheers. Collect (talk) 19:00, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• The incident clearly involved a threat by Grimm against Scotto -- not least insofar as multiple good sources described it as such. I also note that a good deal of space is given to Grimm's own words responding to criticism of his actions -- and so it's reasonable also to quote what he said in the first instance. Nomoskedasticity (talk) 19:09, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

• I think Nomoskedasticity summarized my thoughts very well. A simple statement describing the incident, including what was said (which was a threat), Grimm's reluctance to apologize, and finally, his apology. It is, in general, very relevant and informative for factual and documented incidents like this to be recorded in Wiki pages on political leaders. 173.160.49.206 (talk) 16:11, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

The article as it currently stands has "sufficient weight" as Collect correctly points out. We are not in the business of pushing hyperbole to satisfy the bloodlust of editors who take umbrage with biographical subjects. Two kinds of pork (talk) 03:47, 21 April 2014 (UTC)