Talk:Canada

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this article is too biased

this article is too biased, there is a lot of self praising Canada is not wonderland and those numbers are too pretty (fake) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.255.238.25 (talk) 01:47, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Is any of the material inaccurate or unreferenced? Feel free to list specifics. Walter Görlitz (talk) 02:29, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

The Coat of Arms

Hi there, Walter Görlitz!

Your given reason for removing the Canadian coat of arms was that it was a copyrighted file, and therefore shouldn't be placed in the article. Forgive me if I sound thick, but aren't (by that logic, at least) all coats of arms copyrighted? And, if that's indeed the case, then why on earth can every other nation's coats of arms be placed in their pages (Australia, South Africa, United Kingdom, United States, etc.) while you bar Canada's from its page? This seems like backward logic to me, but if you seem to think otherwise, I am more than happy to help you take down the coats of arms on the pages for every other country on the planet...we don't want to be violating copyright law, right?? (;

If you'll take a look at this from the official page of Coat of Arms of Canada.svg:

"However, it is believed that the use of this work: To illustrate the object in question Where no free equivalent is available or could be created that would adequately give the same information On the English-language Wikipedia, hosted on servers in the United States by the non-profit Wikimedia Foundation, qualifies as fair use under United States copyright law."

Then you'll realize that the copyright only applies to commercial usage, which a nonprofit such as Wikipedia isn't. Additionally, because we are trying to accurately illustrate on English-language Wikipedia, our usage of this image is completely and perfectly within the acceptable use of the Canadian copyright held on this image! And if you believe otherwise, go to McGill or UofT, get a copyright law degree, and then call me back!

--Mickeys1fan (talk) 21:22, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. You'll have to explain the previous message in that space, and you'll have to explain why there's a fair use rationale for its use on the other article.

I won't be reverting it. Someone else likely will.

Welcome to Wikipedia. Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:33, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. The hidden comment at the coat of arms parameter was removed earlier. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:08, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Not every country's government uses the same copyright provisions to cover content that it owns. The United States government, for example, releases its content into the public domain, which means that we can use that content freely because PD is compatible with GFDL — but the Canadian government releases its content under Crown copyright, which is not compatible with GFDL and thus we're much more restricted in how we can use it here. In particular, we are not a non-commercial use just because we don't charge a subscription fee to read the site — the presence or absence of a subscription fee is not the only thing that defines the difference between "commercial" and "non-commercial" use. So the provision that allows Crown-licensed material to be republished in a non-commercial context does not help us at all, because we are not a non-commercial context.

The inconsistency may seem unfair, but that's not our fault. If you don't like it, then by all means start lobbying the Canadian government to change the provisions that it releases its copyrighted content under — but until the government decides to start releasing its content under a licensing model that's compatible with GFDL, there's not a damn thing Wikipedia can do about it except live with the fact that some countries will get to grab images and illustrations from their government sources a lot more easily than Canada can copy stuff from ours. Bearcat (talk) 21:41, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

The Arms of Canada are the personal arms of the Queen of Canada (the sovereign and the state are legally one and the same), thus Royal prerogative governs there use. Also, the Arms are used as a badge of office as representatives of the Crown (the courts, the executive, police and military rank) and is another reason for strict control. See legal use of Arms of Canada and Crown copyright in Canada. I think the Arms have a valid place on this article, but an admin sometime not too long ago made an overly restrictive interpretation trackratte (talk) 23:02, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

Is that a personal opinion or a legal one?

If it's the former, thanks for your opinion, but that's not the current consensus of the government of Canada as displayed at the file representing the arms.

If it's the latter, I'd be most interested in seeing support from a court or other legal judgment in Canada.

I have a hard time accepting anything you write when your grammar is so poor: you used "there" when you meant "their". Walter Görlitz (talk) 23:50, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

I don't think the Government of Canada expresses itself through Wikipedia file pages. However, it does express its "current consensus" here (personal arms), and here ("The official symbols of the Government of Canada are protected under the Trade-marks Act and the Copyright Act") on its gc.ca webspace. Also, good catch on my typos during flippant online discussions, thanks. trackratte (talk) 01:00, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree with trackratte, its highly doubtful that the Canadian government will exercise their jurisdiction on something like Wikipedia. And again, the strict control expressly refers to commercial *distribution*, and we are not :::distributing the COA in exchange for money. Obviously, the coat of arms has a place in this article, you're being incredibly naïve to suggest or think otherwise!

Mickeys1fan (talk) 12:09, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Let's not make them exercise it. Doubtful or not, it is our responsibility to obey the law. Walter Görlitz (talk) 14:22, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

No, actually it isn't "doubtful" that the Canadian government would exercise their copyright jurisdiction to throw takedowns at Wikipedia for using "Crown copyrighted" content — believe it or not, it has actually already happened on several occasions. You're free to think that they might treat this content differently than they've previously treated other content, but we can't assume that to be the case — until the government explicitly grants us permission to use Crown copyrighted content on here, we can't make up our own alternative interpretations of the law. Bearcat (talk) 18:20, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

It seems to me that although the official rendition of the coat of arms cannot be used on this page for the reasons previously discussed, a rendition based on the blazon (e.g. this Commons file) is fine. This particular rendition is used on several other language wikis. Retroplum (talk) 21:48, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Several editors have offered opinions that that one does not accurately represent the coat of arms (in other words, it looks like crap). Walter Görlitz (talk) 21:59, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

I would support the use of the rendition. Based on the number of small but vocal participants here has this issue been discussed somewhere else on a broader wiki group? How will this ever get resolved? It might be prudent to get a wider group of voting participants versus the six or seven here. I notice that most Commonwealth countries have their COA displayed. They all function under Westminster principles as do we, I wonder if there is some further information there. Just my thoughts, but this has dragged on for several headsmacking months. Probably best to work to get this resolved. Krazytea(talk) 22:12, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Are you assuming that it is not resolved because there is no image or that the presentation of an image is not to your liking? The matter has been resolved satisfactorily as there is nothing that states a coat of arms must be displayed. There is no rendition of the coat of arms that is both free and accurate. Walter Görlitz (talk) 22:42, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Renditions are problematic, as elements taken from the official depiction are still copyrighted. The only way to make a free version would be to create an image based solely on the blazon without any reference to the original. You can see some consolidated sources here. Also, Walter has a bit of a point, if it looks nothing like the actual depiction, then what's the point? trackratte (talk) 23:40, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

To the poster two posts back, that really seems like your presenting a false dichotomy. I was just simply raising some points. Krazytea(talk) 05:04, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Doing some quick math, it seems I posted two back. I didn't present a false dichotomy. I was simply responding to yours. Walter Görlitz (talk) 13:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Dominion of Canada

Why isn't it called Dominion of Canada? Like Australia is listed as Commonwealth of Australia. That is it's official name. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.80.150.128 (talk) 23:40, 4 April 2014 (UTC)

See extensive previous discussions at Talk:Canada/Officialname1, and elsewhere in the archives linked from the box near the top of this page. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:35, 5 April 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, that's been talked about a lot over the years:P. IIRC, the "British" got dropped a long time ago, while later on the federal government simply stopped using "Dominion of", possibly to assert their separation from Britain. Official documents now just list it as "Canada", and as far as anyone has been able to find out, it's just "Canada" now, with no longform version of the name existing at the present time. — Gopher65_talk 00:27, 6 April 2014 (UTC)

It has. The crux of the matter is that the 'Dominion of Canada' is a legal title described in Canada's written constitution and is still legal and valid. However, in the 1950 its use by the Government of Canada was phased out due to concerns regarding bilingualism (lack of a suitable translation acceptable to the prime minister at the time). So, the legal title is 'Dominion of Canada', the official title is simply 'Canada', and the common usage is similarly 'Canada'. trackratte (talk) 06:26, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

The term "Dominion of Canada" only appears in two sections making reference to historical documents: FURTHER DETAILS OF CONSTITUTION ACT, 1867, SECTION 91 and The Constitution Act, 1886, 49-50 Vict., c. 35 (U.K.); while Dominion is also only reference to historic documents. It's accessible at http://laws.justice.gc.ca/eng/Const/Const_index.html . Walter Görlitz (talk) 06:37, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, "Dominion of Canada" was used in the Constitution Act, 1871 and the Constitution Act, 1886. However, in the Constitution Act, 1867 I believe "Dominion of Canada" was never used, only phrases along the lines of "shall form and be One Dominion under the name of Canada; and on and after that Day those Three Provinces shall form and be One Dominion under that Name accordingly" and "...federally united into One Dominion under the Crown...", etc. trackratte (talk) 06:52, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Taking the currently definitive legislation to be as set out in A Consolidation of the Constitution Acts 1867 to 1982, as of January 1, 2013 published by the Department of Justice, Canada, including an explanatory foreword,[1], a word search for "Dominion" confirms the above: a recurring phrase is "One Dominion", both words having initial caps, which shows that where "Dominion" is used in the phrase "part of the Dominion of Canada", and after that "the said Dominion", the word Dominion is no more part of a proper name than "One", and that the phrase is to be read as "part of the (One) Dominion of Canada". The French language version uses "Puissance" for "Dominion".[2] --Qexigator (talk) 10:34, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

"Puissance" was an imposed translation, was widely despised, and "In 1951, Prime Minister Louis Saint-Laurent, a Liberal Francophone from Quebec, declared in Parliament that the word would thereafter be banned from any new official documents, then gradually eliminated.7 The word does not appear in the new Constitution Act, 1982" (from Government of Canada Translation Bureau). This is why, starting in 1951, the "Dominion of Canada" has been nearly entirely removed from official discourse and publications (although still pops up in some government documents from time to time). trackratte (talk) 16:02, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

That is worthy of note, and adding the information and/or link could improve the article. It would not be "undue". The alternative "Domaine" would have been better, linguistically and historically, considering the Latin and French etymology of the English. Qexigator (talk) 17:21, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

Could be added to Name of Canada the first "MAIN" article link people see. -- Moxy (talk) 18:07, 7 April 2014 (UTC)

The article lead already notes that Canada was federated as a Dominion in 1867, and that Dominion was conferred as the country's title in the name section. The entire contemporary situation is summarized at [[3]], esp. the whole 3rd paragraph. I don't think more is needed at this point. 174.89.106.54 (talk) 10:01, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

"Largest metropolitan areas" table

It's just a detail, but I was wondering if one could delete th" largest metropolitan areas" table, located in the "demographic" section ? I've just moved it up so it would be "related" to the repartition of the population of canada (and not to Education, as it was before), but 1/ It looks really ugly now 2/ I have the feeling this table is a bit too much for an overview article. 3/ there aren't any comments to explain/analyse that table. It's just there. I don't dare to delete it but I think it should be done... some opinions of experienced editors would be welcomed :-) what should we do ? KaptainIgloo (talk) 14:06, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Aesthetically I think it looks fine in its present location in the Demographics section. The information seems useful enough to me. The largest cities in a country are noteworthy and this information isn't present elsewhere in the article. I'd say leave it where it is.Twanderson (talk) 14:12, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Ok for the worth of the information. About the location, my change has been canceled, and it's back to its former location and I honestly think it is not good. Why putting this information just after a text about education, without transition ? why not, at least, putting it after the texts about the repartition of the Canadian population ?? From my point of view, it doesn't make any sense, it's like pilling up information without caring about consistency.... If someone could tell me what I've missed here, I would be really grateful. (and thanks for your message Twanderson^^) KaptainIgloo (talk) 07:35, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Of the interest of subdivision(demographic part)

I have just seen that the subdivision of the demographic part that I added got deleted. I didn't know that this "no visible structure" was a choice made by the main editors of this part. So first point: sorry, I meant no disrespect.

That being said, I totally disagree about that choice. Why:

1/ The information are harder to find. I've made the subdivision change because I had failed to find the informations I wanted quickly.

2/ There is currently no transitions from one topic to another. We just go from a "population" part to an "education" text, to a "religion" part, without any links or reasons. So what's the point of not showing a rigid division when it already exists, in such an obvious way ?

3/ There is one subdivision already in demographics, about languages. Consequence: this part is strongly highlighted. Ok, languages is an interesting theme, especially in Canada. But don't you think this emphasis is too much ? Are "languages" SO special and important that it should outshine Population, Religion and Education altogether ? In my opinion, it damages the consistency of the article, and, as a consequence, its "encyclopedic" worth.

To sum up: No subdivision in the demographic part, in my opinion, 1/is confusing for the reader 2/ doesn't bring much in term of pleasure of reading 3/ can even harm the encyclopedic quality of the article.

That's my opinion as an editor AND a reader. I'm, of course, curious to hear yours :) I'm still new in editing so I'd be glad to know the reasons that led you to that choice. And sorry for my english, I hope I made my point clear ! KaptainIgloo (talk) 07:35, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

I can't disagree with that reasoning. When I'm looking up an unfamiliar topic on Wikipedia, I use topic and subtopic headings to hasten my search. When those headings are inappropriate or non-existent, I become annoyed, often having to read large swaths of information that I have no interest in, just to find the one little tidbit that I need. Subheadings are helpful to avoid this. — Gopher65_talk 14:17, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Never a good idea to have sections with just a few sentences. During the FA process we determined that having sub sections for all was simply to much and makes the article look childish and less readable. We worked hard on making sure if flows and is not all broken up like at United States article. There are many many subsection that could be there for sports, religion, language, national symbols, music, all the history section..it never ends. Last thing we want is it all fragmented with section that seem all separated. -- Moxy (talk) 15:39, 29 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the answers. But I still don't find it convincing. Firstly, on that article, there is no consistency: Why is there a "language" subsection ? If the problem is that there is just "a few sentences" for Religion/education, then, let's take contents from the big articles "Education/religion in canada".... Those topics are as important, and there is a lot to say about it. I wouldn't find it great, because I think overview articles should be - well - overviews, but If that is the cost for having subsections, I would gladly do it. Secondly, My points still stand: the "fluidity" you are talking about is an illusion here. While reading this part, I was just wondering: I'm reading about religion, then suddenly, one talks to me about education... why ? It's confusing. And it still makes it hard to find information on that article(I would also add that the links to the main articles are really not obvious -I hadn't noticed them when I've read the article).

I understand that starting subsections can be like opening a pandora box, and I agree it is nice to read a text without huge title every 5 lines. I also have no idea about the FA process, and see you are a very experienced editor. But on that article, I do think it is a fact: The lack of subdivision REALLY harms the readability of it. KaptainIgloo (talk) 07:50, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Perhaps best to read over Talk:Canada/Archive 22#New Sub-Sections? and Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries#Structure and guidelines - Moxy (talk) 08:34, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the links. I didn't know there was archives of Talk pages, that is rather handy ! Nevertheless, it doesn't really answer to my questions. The discussion shows how disputed the question of subsection is. The Wikiproject country reminds the importance of respecting the main sections and the "summary style". But I don't really see why that forbids us to put more subdivisions. And I still see all the drawbacks I've described twice. KaptainIgloo (talk) 09:45, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

History: Aboriginal peoples

While the "Out of Africa" theory is both popular, and widely accepted, it is still "theory". Aboriginal peoples of Canada's East (including the Inuit) unanimously believe (according to their own cultural documents) that they originated on the North American Eastern seaboard (notably Maine, USA and New Brunswick). One can argue this incessantly, from both sides, but documented history of Algonquian and Inuit peoples counter the Beringia Bridge's existence. Archaeology lacks the repeatable results that define true science, and geological theory (noteably "Pangea" and other supercontinents) theorize that Beringia could not have existed as continental drift occurred much earlier than humans appeared, and all evidence indicates that the continents have been moving closer together on the Pacific edges and apart of the Atlantic edges. Religious doctrine and mythology of these people also has much more in common with Nordic and Germanic peoples (back as far as any Christian text from both, an archaeological and a truly scientific viewpoint). In light of these points, it is wrong to state that these people migrated from Asia on this page without mentioning all other possibilities. Such theoretical statements belong on the page(s) regarding human migration theory. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.235.189.48 (talk) 05:26, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Gravity is a theory. Continental drift absolutely does not make Beringia impossible (earlier than humans appeared? It's a continuous ongoing process). Even if the cultures are similar, that could easily be cultural spread through viking movements. What are these other possibilities you want to highlight? CMD (talk) 10:21, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

I'm not debating. Gravity is from physics, a pure and applied science (refer to "scientific method"). Norse Edda has references to the natives as well (so if this is a measure of determining migration, one could argue that Native Americans populated Europe, for example). I purposely worded my statement about geological theory using the word "could", as to avoid an absolute "never" specifically because of the theoretical aspects, so please don't assume I am attempting to push any unpopular theory.

To put my original query more simply, how the people native to Canada (or any country) got to the continent has little to do with Canada (or any country)...they were there long before the nation, and have developed separately and uniquely from any other culture. Prehistoric migration does not belong on a modern country's page.