Talk:Zoë Quinn

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because Quinn was the center of a large media controversy within the video game industry, focused on misogyny within the industry, due to the harassment she faced. As part of a larger discussion about misogyny within the video game industry, Quinn is one of the defining resistant female figures.

How could the page be edited in order to convey this importance? — Preceding unsigned comment added by ShaunEdmonds (talk • contribs) 19:49, 30 May 2014‎ (UTC)

Generally people who are only involved in single events do not meet the criteria for biographies of living people. You are welcome to read over them. Zeus ^{t | u | c} 19:51, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Contested deletion 2

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because:

I've added additional details to show her importance. Besides her role in Depression Quest and the subsequent harassment, she:

1) produced the first Twine game released on Steam

2) took part in the failed YouTube indie game developer game_jam reality tv show

3) created the Game Developer Help List to bring together veteran and novice game developers

Hopefully this provides sufficient evidence of her importance, particularly to the indie video game community!

Thank you,

--ShaunEdmonds (talk) 22:56, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Deletion

Why hasn't this wiki been deleted yet? Even JonTron's wiki keeps getting deleted and he's much bigger than her. 8:08 19 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.103.48.114 (talk)

What, you want to delete the whole of Wikipedia? ;) Joking aside, your answer is at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zoe Quinn. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 12:48, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Unprofessional conduct

I would go as far as to say, if we can talk about it on Bill Clinton's page, we can post it here? It's relevant controversy, and goes further than defamation.

Zoe Quinn's Lewinsky Scandal [2]

24.170.47.108 (talk) 07:14, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Completely agree. If people think this page is such of valid importance, her notorious cheating scandal should at least be mentioned. It was all over reddit when it happened. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.206.96.149 (talk) 12:26, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Second. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.140.67.218 (talk) 12:41, 16 August 2014 (UTC)

Third. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.250.186.150 (talk) 02:16, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Fourth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.53.160.76 (talk) 10:52, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Fifth. I logged in to do it myself, to override the lock, but I would rather that the very public information be handled in a way that reflects more consensis.

"The Link." http://thezoepost.wordpress.com/ The Zone Post. Artoftransformation (talk) 05:11, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Disagree. To publish information on Wikipedia, that info can't merely be high-profile in an online self-publishing community. It must also be covered by a reliable secondary source. Wikipedia policy states: "Base articles on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." For non-scholarly examples of these sources, it lists: "university-level textbooks, books published by respected publishing houses, magazines, journals, mainstream newspapers, [and] electronic media, subject to the same criteria." In other words, even if the whole planet is buzzing excitedly about something that allegedly or actually happened, that info can't go on Wikipedia until a reputable outlet reports on it. That may seem like an unfair or limiting restriction, especially if you perceive an event or rumor as very notable, but it keeps the quality of accuracy of Wikipedia much higher. The website "thezoepost" is not a secondary source, it's primary, it's not from a reliable outlet, and it's self-published. So even if the content is very interesting or widely disseminated, it's not usable. A bigger outlet has to cover it. 75.119.242.175 (talk) 03:05, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

This. The places covering this do not count as reliable per Wikipedia's rules, so we can't use them to source the article. And even if this did somehow appear in more reliable sources, we would have to be very careful about how, and if, we covered it. That is because Wikipedia's biographies of living persons policy forbids editors from passing on gossip. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 09:24, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

100% agree! Either the Article is important because of this and it gets included, or the article is not important and gets deleted! Without details about the corruption scandal in the gaming journalism industry she has part in, the article lacks importance! Anybody (talk) 08:39, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

@Anybody: We've had this discussion already, and the article was kept - see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zoe Quinn. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 09:24, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2014

Here is a reference link for the Controversy subsection:

Wirtanen, Josh (17 August 2014). "Phil Fish Goes on Epic Twitter Crusade to Defend Zoe Quinn". Retrieved 17 August 2014.

I think the Controversy subsection should be rewritten to be more neutral, i.e.:

In August 2014, an ex-boyfriend alleged that Zoe Quinn had had affairs with various video game journalists, developers, and content creators. His blog post led to an online controversyWirtanen, Josh (17 August 2014). "Phil Fish Goes on Epic Twitter Crusade to Defend Zoe Quinn". Retrieved 17 August 2014. and suspicion that impropriety was involved in Depression Quest's presence in gaming publications. One alleged sexual partner writes articles for Kotaku, a site which devoted significant attention to Depression Quest. Another of her sexual partners was alleged to be her married employer, who had also achieved some success within the gaming community. There was speculation about Zoe's methods for promoting herself, her games, and her career: online communities began to accuse her of manipulating the media by falsely representing herself as a victim of online harassment, presumably to draw attention to, and support for, her work.

Willhesucceed (talk) 12:13, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Not done: We're not here to repeat gossip - see WP:BLPGOSSIP. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 12:25, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

"In attempting to publish the game through Steam's Greenlight service, Quinn was the target of harassment both online and through sexually explicit phone calls." By your same logic, this too is gossip and should be removed. Articles that cite twitter as references, and a complete lack of evidence make this statement gossip. Don't try and fool anyone, you simply are burying anything that can be construed as negative by abusing rules, and ignoring cases that make the subject look positive. Your obvious conflict of interests makes you an editor who abuses his position to censor information he finds unappealing.73.32.61.213 (talk) 20:59, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Let's say for a minute that 100% that you were right, it was faked entirely and it was an all an elaborative marketing ploy...Wikipedia doesn't publish original thought, and we stick to what the sources say. The reason on why it would be in the article is that there are reliable sources documenting it. I invite you to find some reliable sources for the counter view point, if there are any, for any possibility of adding/omitting anything from the article. Tutelary (talk) 00:01, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

No, the harassment was documented in reputable, edited sources. The infidelity claims weren't. That's really all that there is to it. Euchrid (talk) 23:39, 18 August 2014 (UTC)

Your "reputable edited sources" are exclusively links to Zoe Quinn's twitter account. Seriously, click the [2] and [3] button on the bottom of the main article, and find one hyperlink that IS NOT Zoe Quinn's official twitter page. What you are saying is Zoe Quinn's official twitter page is a reputable source for what goes on Zoe Quinn's wikipedia page. What a joke. http://kc-vidya-rants.tumblr.com/post/95004433478/zoe-quinns-kotaku-staff-cheating-scandal-and-how-she http://imgur.com/a/4VOcx Not considered reliable under wikipedia standards, but they sure as hell aren't just twitter screencaps. 73.32.61.213 (talk) 01:30, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

We allow journalists who publish in reliable sources to make the judgement of whether a subject's Twitter account is a reasonable and trustworthy source for their stories. We don't allow Wikipedia editors to do the same thing. Why the difference? Because the reliable sources have a reputation for fact-checking and editorial oversight, but there is no such system in place for Wikipedia editors. And if the reliable sources don't have such good reputations for fact-checking? They aren't so reliable, and maybe we shouldn't be using them. See Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources - particularly the section on news organisations - to see the criteria we normally apply to sources. We can always review the use of specific sources here or at WP:RS/N. If there is a source you think is dubious, please list the source here, along with the statement you don't think it is reliable for, and we can take a look. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 01:55, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

The article doesn't cite Twitter directly, it cites The Mary Sue and The Escapist, both of which easily pass the criteria for reputable sources. THEY draw from Twitter, it's true, but as they've made the judgement that the information is significant, we should include it. WP doesn't determine what information is significant, or which information is 'true' - we reflect what appears in reputable sources. Euchrid (talk) 02:50, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.858347-Zoe-Quinn-and-the-surrounding-controversy?page=31#21285187 Wow look at that, The Escapist is admitting it published an article with no evidence other than Zoe Quinn's word (The article in question is sourced on the main page as [2]). Undoubtable evidence of a bias, and makes the escapist link in the main article an untrustworthy source. And to top it off the EDITOR-IN-CHIEF is commenting on this scandal which wikipedia editors refuse to acknowledge. Zoe Quinn's entire article is written with a bias, with no efforts in sight to correct that. 73.32.61.213 (talk) 04:09, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Are you sure that that's the post you meant to link to? It says that the harassment was real, that it's harmful to individuals and the industry, and that there have been no breaches of ethics. I think that you might need to read up on confirmation bias before you try to interpret sources. Euchrid (talk) 04:15, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

"The Escapist ran a story about Quinn's harassment in late 2013 with little evidence other than her word. We will always default towards helping out people who are the subject of harassment on the internet." This is the relevant part, it shows that the article was published without any fact-checking, and as I showed before the original article used Zoe Quinn's official twitter for all of its references. As for your point, Editors in other section of this talk page refuse to cover this scandal because they refuse to admit that it exists. This comment shows that it does in fact exist, as it had to be denied by the Editor-In-Chief of The Escapist. 73.32.61.213 (talk) 04:31, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The issue isn't whether or not this 'scandal' exists, but whether or not it's appropriate to be included in a Wikipedia article. As has been stated many times, we don't publish gossip, and we definitely don't publish potentially libelous material in biographies of living persons. The policies in this case are very clear. Furthermore, if you're trying to piece a point together by picking posts out of a forum, that's original research and synthesis, something else that we don't do here. So that's three WP policies, any one of which would be sufficient to block this material. Please stop pushing for it, you're only wasting everybody's time. Euchrid (talk) 04:39, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Please read this section before replying. The main issue of contention was the inclusion of alleged reports of harassment from wizardchan. As was already demonstrated both reference materials solely used Zoe Quinn's official twitter as sources. Now we have evidence of bias and a lack of editorial process for the referenced material. As you said, "...we don't publish gossip..." the current article citing harrassment is purely twitter gossip with no evidence. That section needs to be removed or edited to reflect wikipedia standards.73.32.61.213 (talk) 04:55, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

73.32 is calling The Escapist article's reliability into question. The Chief Editor said nobody researched the article when it was published, and they used it to signal-boost someone's pet cause. Can a specific article be unreliable? Wikipedia must have a policy for rejecting poor articles from otherwise reliable publications. 72.89.93.110 (talk) 06:53, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

We trust journalists to make the judgement about whether their sources are reliable when they write their articles. We tend to be cautious in the case of claims that seem far-fetched - see WP:REDFLAG - but otherwise we aren't allowed to second-guess an article's reliability if the publication is generally reliable, there are no corrections, and there are no conflicts of interest involved. And even without the Escapist article there is still the Mary Sue source to back up the harassment claim - and here are three more.[3][4][5] — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 07:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

"Alleged"

I don't want this to become an edit war, but the word 'alleged' is inappropriate when describing Quinn's harassment. At WP we follow the sources, we don't provide our own editorials or commentary. Both reputable sources - The Mary Sue and The Escapist - indicate that what happened was harassment, and our article needs to reflect that. It's not up to editors to determine what really happened. If there are any reliable sources that suggest that it didn't, or that reports were overinflated, then that information can be added as well. Until then, the word 'alleged' has no place. Euchrid (talk) 06:07, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I couldn't have put it better myself. If anyone wants to read the Wikipedia policy behind this - and it will make things a lot easier for all the new users here if you do - you can find it at Wikipedia:No original research. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 06:17, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

For anyone who IS interested in reading up on policy, in addition to the Original Research article, it's worth bearing in mind that it needs to be interpreted particularly strictly when, as in this case, the article is a biography of a living person. Anything which could possibly be seen as being insulting or defamatory needs to be very well sourced, and to not say or imply anything that does not appear in the source article. Euchrid (talk) 06:23, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

So, if The Mary Sue and The Escapist were to report that Zoe Quinn was from outer space, and the only source they were to cite was Quinn's personal Twitter account, would her Wikipedia article have to state that she was from outer space as though it were a fact? Why should Wikipedia be limited to the bad reporting of The Mary Sue and The Escapist? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Josephf5 (talk • contribs) 06:43, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes sources do make factual errors, of course. For that, we have WP:REDFLAG and WP:WEIGHT. Neither of those policies seem to be relevant here, however. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 08:09, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I support this as well, for the same reasons given by Stradivarious and Eurchrid. Sergecross73 msg me 16:10, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Identifying_reliable_sources would suggest that due to the potential bias of the source, in-text-attribution should be used in order to create a neutral stance. Alleged might be a bit too gossipy for WP (frankly I feel the whole situation is), but stating "Zoe Quinn has claimed" is not. 21:27, 19 August 2014 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.169.204.25 (talk)

We should state that she "reported" harassment as the Escapist article says early on. Also we have WP:IAR, and we have our own internal editorial standards to maintain. If a dozen RS's reported "John Doe murdered his son" instead of "John Doe allegedly murdered his son" then we would use our own judgement and use the latter sentence. Part of the reason for IAR is to make sure we are not bound to defer our own editorial judgement to RSs who report things as fact without having any evidence.AioftheStorm (talk) 22:33, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

News about how did Zoe Quinn got there:

Is this true? I need clarification.

What is it exactly that you're asking? Sergecross73 msg me 16:12, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Past Modelling Career

The article lacks information of her modelling career as an alternative model.

She modelled for Deviant Nation and for Broken Dollz under the name Locke. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.165.64.110 (talk) 15:31, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Please provide a reliable source that covers this. Sergecross73 msg me 16:11, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Easy. Her Brokendollz profile is still up. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.165.64.110 (talk) 16:32, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

If its not documented by any third party reliable sources, it probably doesn't warrant any mention on the page. Sergecross73 msg me 16:52, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I looked up the profile and that is her, took me about 10 seconds to check. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.132.95.65 (talk) 03:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

How about her public statement to GamesNosh, where she condemns the practice of disseminating pictures of her as a form of harassment? "What I *am* going to say is that the proliferation of nude pictures of me...Suddenly it’s acceptable to share pictures of my breasts on social media to threaten and punish me...As much as those leading the charge against me will do mental backflips to make posting pictures of my tits about “ethics”..." Garonyldas (talk) 05:00, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

No mention of the controversy?

The article currently doesn't mention anything about the current controversy relating to the "thezoepost". Why? Is it because no one has gone ahead to write about it or are editors going against WP:CENSOR and WP:NOTABILITY? [Soffredo] 16:56, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

You need reliable sources. Tutelary (talk) 16:58, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

And its regarding a real person, so the sources need to adhere to the stricter WP:BLP standards as well. So far, the sourcing isn't even meeting bare bones WP:RS standards, let alone that. Sergecross73 msg me 17:02, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Looks like all we have for now is this. Not sure we'll get more coverage since the news is against gaming journalism. [Soffredo] 18:35, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Zoe Quinn has also made a post about it on her own Tumblr. [Soffredo] 18:46, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

The first source doesn't look like an RS, and the second is basically her saying she's not going to delve into the details. Not sure what you'd use it towards. Sergecross73 msg me 18:54, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, with these sources, we could already try to include the event in her article. There's no point in pretending all of this isn't happening.

In August 2014, Quinn's ex-boyfriend Eron Gjoni created a Wordpress blog detailing how she cheated on him with multiple people, some of which work in gaming journalism. Quinn commented on the incident saying "It’s a personal matter that never should have been made public,".

Thoughts? [Soffredo] 19:45, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Hi there! It's discussed upthread [[6]]. But basically, we aren't trying to pretend it isn't happening - the issue is that Wikipedia policy is really strict about what kinds of sources we're allowed to mine for content, especially when the article is about a person. So far, the existing sources simply don't meet Wikipedia's standards. It's one of the hard things about being a Wikipedia editor: our job isn't to write the truth (or what we think is the truth). Our job is only to present an accurate synthesis of what scholars and reporters and journalists and major media outlets say is the truth. Often that means we can only cover something very late in the game, and sometimes not at all. 173.239.141.98 (talk) 20:28, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth. Though WP:V no longer states it like that (unfortunately), it's still pretty close to that idea. No matter how 'true' something may be, it cannot automatically be included in Wikipedia just because it's true. Rather, Wikipedia collects information from reliable sources and reflects what is stated in those sources - regardless of whether or not Wikipedians find it true or not. (Instead, the consensus among sources is described as the main view, with other notable views represented as such.) In other words, if all sources mentioning the moon landing were to conspire to say there is indisputable proof the moon landing was faked from tomorrow on, then henceforth the Wikipedia article on it will state the moon landing is faked; we go by what the reliable sources say unless we have reliable sources saying otherwise. In a situation like this scandal, if all notable gaming sites refuse to even mention it, we have no reliable sources to work with and can't include it in the article. To point out what the problems are with your current sources:

• thezoepost is a blog written by an ex-boyfriend with an agenda (revenge for being treated like shit). Blogs (except under some special circumstances, when written by notable people specifically on a notable subject) are not considered reliable by Wikipedia's standards. The blog's complete lack of neutrality further makes it unreliable.
• Though it looks professional enough, Gamer Headlines is not a notable site. It's been around for less than a year and as far as I can tell its existence hasn't even been mentioned by notable sites or people.
• Zoe's own blog is an acceptable source for her response on the incident. However, it's not an acceptable indicator of the notability of the incident as it's not a third-party source. Until other reliable sources make it notable enough for inclusion, Zoe's reply is unusable.

VDZ (talk) 20:28, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Though it looks professional enough, Gamer Headlines is not a notable site. It's been around for less than a year and as far as I can tell its existence hasn't even been mentioned by notable sites or people. How would you say that? It appears to have editorial control over their own content,] and it is used by other articles as well. I would say that it's a reliable source for the instance. In addition, just because something 'looks' like it might not be a reliable site or of the sort does not make it not a reliable source. Its existence does not need to be mentioned by notable sites or other people, where are you getting that from? In essence, I would like to ask specifically what parts of the website makes you think it's -not- a reliable source per WP:RS? I'd like to comment on the boyfriend's blog as well. thezoepost is a blog written by an ex-boyfriend with an agenda (revenge for being treated like shit). Blogs (except under some special circumstances, when written by notable people specifically on a notable subject) are not considered reliable by Wikipedia's standards. The blog's complete lack of neutrality further makes it unreliable. We do not exempt sources from being biased, we may exempt them for other reasons but being biased is not one of them. For example, in this case, since it's a BLP, there should be better sources than blogs and that might be a legitimate reason to omit. But not for simply being biased do we exclude sources. Tutelary (talk) 21:05, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Agreed on all points. We need some reliable third parties discussing it or there's no indication of importance. This isn't a gossip magazine or a tabloid. Sergecross73 msg me 20:31, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Here are two different third-party sources. The first is a post by TotalBiscuit, confirming the controversy exists. The second is a series of tweets by Stephen Totilo with this one in particular confirming there was a relationship between Quinn and one of the men she was accused of sleeping with. That's two notable people referencing the controversy with one of them confirming that at least one small part of the accusations against Quinn are true. Though, whether or not Twitter posts can be counted as reliable sources will have to be your call. Ihatevidyagames (talk) 00:57, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Those absolutely don't meet Wikipedia's standard for being a reliable source. Sergecross73 msg me 00:59, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I think this Know Your Meme article count for being reliable. Yes, KYM can act like a Wiki and anyone can add a "meme", but the page's current entry editors (seen on the right side) includes staff members and moderators. [Soffredo] 01:33, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Why would you think a meme website would be a reliable source for a BLP. Please, re-familiarize yourself with reliable sources and BLP guidelines. Sergecross73 msg me 01:37, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Because Know Your Meme is a reliable source and has been used many times by editors of Wikipedia. What are your thoughts on this, which is a reddit post made by a moderator of a default subreddit? [Soffredo] 01:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

We should at least try to assume good faith in this instance. What Serge is talking about is that it needs to be a reliable source. See WP:RS for more information. Additionally, what he's talking about when referring to 'BLP' is Biography of a Living Person; the reason why this is important is that Wikipedia is very strict about information about living persons, due to legal, moral, and ethical reasons. What is put on Wikipedia has effects to the real world, so we have to be careful about what we write. The BLP policy link can be found here; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:BLP I also should've added a qualifier for me using the 'link tool' to suggest something is a reliable source. It was being used to establish that Gamer News was being used as reliable sources on other articles, and I believe cements that support. KnowYourMeme is not a reliable source as they're essentially a group blog and reddit isn't either as it's a forum. Tutelary (talk) 01:48, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I still don't get why KYM isn't considered a reliable source, and the reddit post in question here was created by a moderator of a default subreddit. Well let's try using this as a reliable source then? [Soffredo] 01:55, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

It fails WP:SPS if it allows for use submissions. And beyond what you were told above, it's a common sense thing. A website on memes - jokes - isn't generally going to be a good authority on someone's life. There's a list of commonly usuable VG related sources at WP:VG/S. If you're having such a hard time understanding what makes a source reliable, maybe it'd be easier to look for ones that already have consensus for being reliable. Sergecross73 msg me

Motherboard, owned by Vice, is now reporting this. Can we add this whole incident yet...? (reliability check) [Soffredo] 04:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

That article is dangerously biased. The comments section shows extreme disapproval. I would refrain from using this as the catalyst for discussion of the scandal yet.Starly396 (talk) 05:43, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

A new article has appeared from Talking Ship. It appears reputable, but I will leave that open for discussion.Starly396 (talk) 06:28, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm not too sure about the reliability of Talking Ship, seeing as all of their contributors use pseudonyms. Motherboard appears to be an acceptable source, though. Having said this, just because we have reliable sources about something doesn't mean that it should go in the article. In this case WP:BLPGOSSIP is of particular concern: "Avoid repeating gossip. Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject." I don't think that this story has cleared the level of gossip yet. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 06:48, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I'd also like to remind people that Wikipedia is not a news source. The notability of an event is often very hard to determine while it is happening, and will usually seem far more notable at the time than it will in the future. Wikipedia content needs to not just be notable now, but be likely to be notable in the foreseeable future as well. It is very likely that, over the course of Quinn's career as a games developer, her boyfriend making claims about who she slept with will be of very little significance. This is sufficient reason - in addition to all the other very good reasons - to not include this 'information' at this stage.Euchrid (talk) 03:56, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

That's as much a conjecture as those saying this will change the face of the gaming journalism industry. I could make the same "It is very likely that" claim for the opposing side of this issue. It all depends on who breaks that story.Starly396 (talk) 05:48, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Hey, I have a question, especially for Sergecross73 and Mr. Stradivarius. VDZ explained above that the standard is verifiability, not truth. Something can be true, but not verifiable, and it does not belong on Wikipedia. But what if the opposite is true? What if a source is verifiable, but you believe it is not true? I am referring to the Escapist article, whose verifiability I believe is in question, but am not sure which guidelines are relevant. What policies are relevant?72.89.93.110 (talk) 07:16, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

The policies involved here are WP:REDFLAG and WP:WEIGHT. For a good overview, see Wikipedia:Inaccuracy. — Mr. Stradivarius ^{♪ talk ♪} 07:37, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. :3 72.89.93.110 (talk) 07:45, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance because... Zoe has recently been accused of a matter which infringes the entire gaming journalism field. This speedy deletion would inhibit this important fact being added to the article

The article has -already been- speedied and prodded and afded (articles for deletion, a discussion with the community on whether to keep an article) and has been kept in every single one of them. People trying to delete or speedy this article I wouldn't say are trying to 'censor' or 'inhibit' the information. They're just taking personal conflicts into Wikipedia without knowing the background facts. Tutelary (talk) 18:26, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 August 2014

She is caught up in a scandal [redacted serious, unproven allegations about a BLP] Mikex166 (talk) 20:03, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

 Not done Yes, I've pointed this out over here. Seems that we can't post this controversy and Reddit censorship until we get reliable sources. [Soffredo] 20:17, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

It's totally unacceptable to post allegations like that about a person's private life on Wikipedia. Familiarize yourself with the BLP policy before you go any further in this matter, Mike. Raudasta (talk) 22:27, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

No sources for her occupation

According to her own website, she is not a 2d artist nor a programmer. The only tasks so far she has done was work in QA and as a minor voice actress. 2003:6A:6C2A:E401:18F2:4224:41D3:E172 (talk) 22:26, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

So Depression Quest wrote and coded itself, then? Euchrid (talk) 22:28, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

We do need to have sources stating her occupation, else what's stopping me from changing 'Game Developer' to 'Game Programmer' or other tangentially related variants other than my own integrity?

We actually do have sources;

• http://upstart.bizjournals.com/news/technology/2014/05/08/zoe-quinn-installs-a-chip-in-her.html
• http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/207278/Game_Developer_Help_List_rallies_industry_vets_to_aid_rookie_devs.php Tutelary (talk) 22:37, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I don't have time to work them in right now, but here you go: personal website, which uses the term "game developer", patreon which does the same. They're primary sources, but those are fine for identifying how somebody self-describes and the work that they've done, provided that those facts are undisputed, which they aren't. If you want a secondary source, I'm sure that there are plenty of articles about GAME_JAM that refer to her as such as well. Euchrid (talk) 22:44, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

I can't believe somebody seriously added a citation needed tag for her occupation --94.175.85.144 (talk) 23:22, 19 August 2014 (UTC)

That person was me. I added it for a millisecond due to my assumption of good faith for the IPv6's thoughts on there being no source. Nope, immediately looked at source list and spotted two sources making statements of her being a game developer, and rollbacked (reverted) my edit. Tutelary (talk) 00:20, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Source Bias

Carly Smith's and Susana Polo's articles are used as sources in the claim the article's subject was harassed online and via phone because of her work. However, both writers only use the subject's own tweets as evidence. It is also one of the publishing site's policy (The Escapist) to not fact check articles of this nature. A subject's own claims being used as a source is not up to Wikipedia standard and these articles should be set aside. It is gossipy, as there are various claims about the nature of what happened. In order to keep the sentence about harrassment there needs to be a another source that is not self referring. [Edited]~~Ron 70.185.196.205 (talk) 04:47, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

We have been discussing this in an above topic, and this case of bias is very clear. The publishing site (The Escapist) has also posted http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/18.858347-Zoe-Quinn-and-the-surrounding-controversy?page=31#21285187 in reference to the 2013 article the wiki page is using as a reference. The take-away is this statement by the Editor-In-Chief of the website, "The Escapist ran a story about Quinn's harassment in late 2013 with little evidence other than her word. We will always default towards helping out people who are the subject of harassment on the internet." This shows that The Escapist is not a trustworthy source for this piece of news as it had not done any fact-checking and the Editor held a clear bias toward the subject. I recommend removing the mention of harassment from the main page, or changing it to state that Zoe Quinn made claims of harassment.73.32.61.213 (talk) 05:13, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Well, I went trying to find reasons not to do this, and oddly, I ended up agreeing with this edit request. Quinn's own tweets about the harassment fail WP:SELFPUB, and the cited articles just cite her tweets.

I think changing it to "claims of harassment" would be inappropriate, because it sounds gossipy and feels like Wikipedia is casting doubt on her claims, which should not be our intent. I am going to be bold and remove the sentence as contentious and insufficiently sourced for a BLP. Please feel free to put it back if you feel it was wrong of me to do so. I didn't realize the article was fully protected now, so nevermind! I do think it might be a good idea to remove that sentence, though. --Ashenai (talk) 08:49, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 August 2014

Please change "... and has implanted a chip in the back of her hand that contains the game Deus Ex..." to "...and has implanted a chip in the back of her hand that contains a link to a download of the game Deus Ex..." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Erreib (talk • contribs) 05:28, 20 August 2014 (UTC) The RFID chip in her finger contains a link to a download of the game Deus Ex, not the game itself. RFID chips do not have the storage capacity to store such data, and the way the article states this is incorrect. Erreib (talk) 05:23, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

 Not done First of all, edit requests need to give the exact wording that you want inserted or removed. Second of all, that's original research. Euchrid (talk) 05:25, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I've changed it, the initial ref was based on a kotaku article, the kotaku article clearly states the chip contains download codes, not the game. Have changed ref and altered text to suit. - X201 (talk) 05:55, 20 August 2014 (UTC)