Talk:Black Lives Matter

Merge

I propose to redirect the stub "Black Lives Matter Movement" here. A Merry Christmas! Rich Farmbrough, 14:29, 27 December 2014 (UTC).

• Support and this title can be left as a redirect. Merry Christmas!- MrX 14:37, 27 December 2014 (UTC)
• Comment: But, I've never heard of the "Black Lives Matter Movement". If we are to go with common names, shouldn't we stick with simply "Black Lives Matter"? ---Another Believer _(Talk) 15:36, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Yes, and the primary topic should be the slogan/hashtag. The movement is a subsidiary topic, at least at the moment. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 17:41, 22 February 2015 (UTC).

Request protection?

There's been recent edit warring with IP vandalism. WP:RFP may be a solution. Thoughts? Runner1928 (talk) 04:00, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

poorly written

new editor. this article intro is poorly written.

original:

Black Lives Matter is a primarily American movement and hashtag (#BlackLivesMatter) that started after the July 2013 acquittal of George Zimmerman in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin. It received fresh impetus from the 2014 shooting of Michael Brown. The movement has received worldwide media attention due to its massive scope and ongoing existence. Protesters and protest organizers have met with President Barack Obama and other prominent leaders to demand an end to what they view as police brutality, mass incarceration of African-Americans, and militarization of many U.S. police departments.

alternative:

Black Lives Matter is an American movement that started after the July 2013 acquittal of George Zimmerman in the Florida shooting death of Trayvon Martin. It received fresh impetus from the 2014 shooting of Michael Brown. The movement has received worldwide media attention.

Wafflesmatter (talk) 20:37, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

Discussion on deletion: Navigational Template:2010s controversial killings of African Americans

A navigation template at the bottom of this article is being discussed for deletion because there is no parent article. One editor asked whether the Black Lives Matter article might be expanded to become the parent article. Interested editors, please comment here. Grand'mere Eugene (talk) 23:58, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Facebook as source

Hey- I noticed for 'Deaths inspiring the movement' (this should probably be renamed to a more appropriate header) we were using facebook as a source for many of them to link them to the movement. Isn't Facebook A) a primary source, B) able to be changed at any moment and C) access limited to having an account? Surely we could use something better. PeterTheFourth (talk) 02:16, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• @PeterTheFourth: A) What's wrong with a primary source when it's the official Black Lives Matter account?
• B) Take a 'screenshot' - archive.org or webcitation.org/archive.php
• C) I added all public links as I did not log on to Facebook when citing any links. Which link can't you access?
• D) How should we rename the section? starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 02:21, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I can access the links, but I'm aware that Facebook gates access to a large amount of content by your login status. You'd be better off with archiving the material yourself rather than requesting others do it for the sources you add. A primary source is not sufficient for explicitly tying these deaths to the Black Lives Matter movement in such a direct manner- additionally, such a section (especially in list format) is not appropriate for this article. You'd be better off taking the cases which were important to the history of the movement and integrating them in the 'Description' section. PeterTheFourth (talk) 03:01, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for your suggestion. When you believe an article needs improvement, please feel free to make those changes. Wikipedia is a wiki, so anyone can edit almost any article by simply following the edit this page link at the top.
The Wikipedia community encourages you to be bold in updating pages. Don't worry too much about making honest mistakes—they're likely to be found and corrected quickly. If you're not sure how editing works, check out how to edit a page, or use the sandbox to try out your editing skills. New contributors are always welcome. You don't even need to log in (although there are many reasons why you might want to). 208.167.254.20 (talk) 06:13, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

You're right- I'll remove those that don't have a proper source. PeterTheFourth (talk) 06:20, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• I'm adding secondary sources. Might not be done within 24 hours though. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 08:43, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

It's very good work you're doing in adding the requisite secondary sources, and I'm pleased my advice was helpful in some way. PeterTheFourth (talk) 09:01, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• It's done now. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 11:40, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Deaths inspiring the movement

The section Deaths inspiring the movement needs references that state unambiguously that the listed deaths inspired BLM, otherwise they will be removed. Original research is not allowed. I tagged the section yesterday, but someone has already removed the tag without addressing the issue. In a similar vein, the NAVBOX Template:Deaths inspiring Black Lives Matter, is problematic. Many of the articles linked make no mention of BLM. Again, this is an original research issue and a WP:NPOV issue.- MrX 12:09, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. ---Another Believer _(Talk) 13:50, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

I see now that there are at least mentions of the victims in various self-published sources, so I withdraw some of my concern. My remaining concern is that a list like this may be WP:UNDUE, and turns the article into somewhat of a WP:COATRACK. For example, did Oscar Grant III's death in 2009 actually inspire the movement that started four years later, or is this some revisionist history on the part of the organization? What do others think? - MrX 19:17, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• @MrX and Another Believer: - have you guys seen the Link column? There's both a primary source from the official Black Lives Matter team and a secondary source connecting Black Lives Matter to each death.
• The whole point of Black Lives Matter is that black people are dying needlessly. Grant's death is being used to exemplify that. I simply wish to portray a section about all these deaths. If you have a better way of putting Deaths inspiring the movement, please feel free to rename the section. Plus, if you're concerned about a coatrack, the list could be split into another article. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 00:49, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• I suppose this is moot now that you have moved the content to a new article, but this is one of the reasons why self-published sources should not be used to support self-serving claims (see WP:SELFPUB). The secondary sources in the links column mearly mention BLM, without making any claims about inspiring the movement. Quite simply, if there are not independent sources that state that each victim's killing inspired the BLM movement, then it should not be in this article, or a stand alone article.- MrX 02:10, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree with MrX on those points, there need to be independent sources stating that those victim's killings inspired the movement. - SantiLak (talk) 08:43, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• @MrX and SantiLak: - let's take the first example, Oscar Grant. Independent source: [1] at the 6th annual vigil for Grant, which was organized by the Oscar Grant Foundation. People held signs that read "We Are All Oscar Grant," and "Grant Station" and "Black Lives Matter," or, the tweet quoted in the same source: #BlackLivesMatter #OscarGrant vigil I'm seeing this as his death inspiring BLM. At the very least, people are protesting against his death using BLM. It's just how to phrase it! Deaths protested by BLM? starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 13:21, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• People are using the phrase, no doubt inspired by the movement (my personal guess; unsourced), but unless independent sources say that Grant's death inspired or influenced the movement, then you can't place that kind of content in the article because it's based on your personal analysis. My understanding is that BLM was inspired by the acquittal of George Zimmerman after the shooting of Trayvon Martin. Did the the BLM organizers travel back in time to be inspired by Oscar Grant's death? Do you see somewhere in the WP:OR policy that allows for such an interpretation? - MrX 14:29, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

I added the table back, unaware of this talk page discussion. I think we should look at each entry and see if an independent source relates it to the Black Lives Matter movement. I have not made a thorough review of each and every entry, but those that I checked seemed to be OK. I'll start with the first two and can take a further look when time permits.

• Oscar Grant III is sourced to [2], but I can't see that it mentions Grant. This entry should probably be taken out unless another independent source is provided.
• Aiyana Jones is sourced to USA Today and does mention Black Lives Matter in the context of her death. That entry on the table appears justified.

MrX makes a fair point that "inspires" is problematic, I am changing the header to "protested by". Sjakkalle (Check!) 11:44, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• @Sjakkalle: - Thank you for the renaming, I acknowledge that the term could have been better. Oscar Grant is sourced to NBC Bay Area. I can't remember ever using Black Voice News; turns out it's the first reference in the article. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 11:58, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

The source only says that someone was holding a sign with "Black Lives Matter" written on it. It certainly does not support the idea that the Black Lives Matter movement collectively marched in the vigil. Is the standard for inclusion on this list is so low that any mention of the phrase "Black Lives Matter" is noteworthy? WP:DUE would seem to apply.- MrX 12:08, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• San Francisco Bay View: This is not just about Yuvette Henderson, Mike Brown, Oscar Grant or Eric Garner,” Kharyshi Wiginton with Black Lives Matter said. “Their murders ...
• Huffington Post: the rash of police killings that sparked the national Black Lives Matter campaigns ... For more than two years, much longer for those who have been paying close attention, officially sanctioned violence against black and brown bodies has weaved through a procession of names like Oscar Grant, Tamir Rice, Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Eric Garner and now Freddie Gray whose lives mattered starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 12:28, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Yes, the HuffPo source is good and does support the claim for those listed. Specifically, "the rash of police killings that sparked the national Black Lives Matter campaigns" is exactly the type of wording I was looking for. I'm not sure about the San Francisco Bay View.- MrX 12:41, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

• HuffPo added then. starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 13:01, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

So what is the inclusion criteria now? Any black person who dies in custody or mysterious circumstances? ― Padenton|✉   22:17, 31 May 2015 (UTC)

• @Padenton: - no, how about getting a reliable source linking the death to Black Lives Matter? starship.paint ~ ¡Olé! 11:16, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

"All lives matter"

There is a short paragraph Response to All Lives Matter in this article, but it seems to be taken for granted that the reader knows what All Lives Matter is. Is it, like Black Lives Matter, an "American Movement" which has received media attention? Are there well-known people standing behind it? Is it a hashtag? The motto of a pro-life (i.e., anti-abortion) group? (It seems to me that it isn't, but we need a short explanation. Not on the discussion page, but in the article itself.)

--Austrian (talk) 07:35, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

There are other derivatives, including "Blue lives matter" and "little lives matter" that might need covering. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:13, 27 June 2015 (UTC).

Seems that "All lives matter" and "Blue lives matter" are covered in the article now. I wonder if any of the other iterations are worthy of inclusion? Kiwifist (talk) 02:26, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Also, it seems like "Muslim lives matter" is a notable iteration that could need covering. Kiwifist (talk) 02:17, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Clarified some of the blurbs in the sections about people

I clarified some of the blurbs about the folks whose deaths sparked protests and updated them with more recent/accurate information. Titanium Dragon (talk) 07:28, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

What is a BLM protest?

As far as I can see, BLM is far more a loose movement than an activist organization, little more than Hands up, don't shoot. That's what the first sentence says, a movement. Is there a spokesperson for BLM? Any widely recognized national leadership? Does BLM have financing or lobbyists? Is there anything preventing me from declaring myself a member of Black Lives Matter, just because I feel like it? If I then protest the Killing of John Doe and invoke the BLM name, and some RS reports that I did so (without necessarily endorsing the connection), does that constitute a BLM protest? What is the criterion for inclusion in the protests table?

I noted that Eric Harris is mentioned in the lead but is not in the table. So I went looking for references, using "eric harris" "black lives matter". I gave up after the first three or four; they mention both in the same story, hence the Google hit, but they don't make a clear connection. Maybe I need to look deeper, but it looks to me like the association is made by the reporter/columnist, not by BLM. To my mind, that's not enough for inclusion, and I wonder how many of the existing entries are based on such a tenuous connection. ―Mandruss ☎ 10:25, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Mandruss Thanks for your comment. I started this article and was concerned to see it become a possible coatrack for an "official" organisation, while at the same time not wanting to deny anything that has actually been done in the way of organising. I welcome all efforts to ensure that the article is compliant with WP:RS, WP:NPOV and WP:UNDUE. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 18:04, 6 August 2015 (UTC).

Thanks, but that doesn't really address my concerns. I think there needs to be established some clear criteria (beyond general references to Wikipedia policies) so that everyone is on the same page. We can then add the criteria as hidden comments, and begin the (non-trivial) task of removing the entries that fail the criteria. I don't see the criteria as very difficult, it would just be something to the effect of: Death was publicly protested by BLM leadership and that fact was reported in reliable sources. Simply having the death and BLM mentioned in the same news article is not sufficient. Then you just have to define what constitutes BLM leadership. ―Mandruss ☎ 16:37, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Intersectionality: black lives matter, LGBT movement, feminism, undocumented immigrants

Black lives matters isn't just a a movement for cis gendered black males as the media would like the paint it as.

http://blacklivesmatter.com/about/

#BlackLivesMatter was created in 2012 after Trayvon Martin’s murderer, George Zimmerman, was acquitted for his crime, and dead 17-year old Trayvon was post-humously placed on trial for his own murder. Rooted in the experiences of Black people in this country who actively resist our de-humanization, #BlackLivesMatter is a call to action and a response to the virulent anti-Black racism that permeates our society.Black Lives Matter is a unique contribution that goes beyond extrajudicial killings of Black people by police and vigilantes. 

It goes beyond the narrow nationalism that can be prevalent within Black communities, which merely call on Black people to love Black, live Black and buy Black, keeping straight cis Black men in the front of the movement while our sisters, queer and trans and disabled folk take up roles in the background or not at all. Black Lives Matter affirms the lives of Black queer and trans folks, disabled folks, black-undocumented folks, folks with records, women and all Black lives along the gender spectrum. It centers those that have been marginalized within Black liberation movements. It is a tactic to (re)build the Black liberation movement.

When we say Black Lives Matter, we are broadening the conversation around state violence to include all of the ways in which Black people are intentionally left powerless at the hands of the state. We are talking about the ways in which Black lives are deprived of our basic human rights and dignity. How Black poverty and genocide is state violence. How 2.8 million Black people are locked in cages in this country is state violence. How Black women bearing the burden of a relentless assault on our children and our families is state violence. How Black queer and trans folks bear a unique burden from a hetero-patriarchal society that disposes of us like garbage and simultaneously fetishizes us and profits off of us, and that is state violence. How 500,000 Black people in the US are undocumented immigrants and relegated to the shadows. How Black girls are used as negotiating chips during times of conflict and war. How Black folks living with disabilities and different abilities bear the burden of state sponsored Darwinian experiments that attempt to squeeze us into boxes of normality defined by white supremacy, and that is state violence.

#BlackLivesMatter is working for a world where Black lives are no longer systematically and intentionally targeted for demise.  We affirm our contributions to this society, our humanity, and our resilience in the face of deadly oppression.  We have put our sweat equity and love for Black people into creating a political project–taking the hashtag off of social media and into the streets. The call for Black lives to matter is a rallying cry for ALL Black lives striving for liberation.

BlackWomenMatter BlackGirlsMatter BlackGayLivesMatter BlackBiLivesMatter BlackBoysMatter BlackQueerLivesMatter BlackMenMatter BlackLesbiansMatter BlackTransLivesMatter BlackImmigrantsMatter BlackIncarceratedLivesMatter BlackDifferentlyAbledLivesMatter

AHC300 (talk) 18:23, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Please see WP:No original research. You need secondary sources to make these associations. This is not an extension of BLM's website. I feel the entire Philosophy section should go as massive overdependence on a primary source, but I'll wait for other opinions. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:46, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with Mandruss. The content that AHC300 added runs afoul of fair use, and our WP:PROMO policy. This type of content should not be added unless it has been discussed in WP:SECONDARY sources.- MrX 18:57, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

@MrX: How do you feel about the remaining Philosophy section? ―Mandruss ☎ 19:00, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

It has similar problems. This sort of content need to follow the Golden rule. I've removed it.- MrX 19:11, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

What about this source? http://www.advocate.com/politics/religion/2014/12/17/black-lgbt-faith-leaders-why-black-lives-matter - AHC300 (talk) 19:02, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

My opinion: You could write a little, in your own words, about the LGBT connection using that as your source, and cite it. Don't say anything that is not directly supported by that source. You could then add the LGBT category. Just my opinion. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:09, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes, that seems like a good source.- MrX 19:11, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Jonathan Sanders

I have just created Death of Jonathan Sanders if someone has the time right now to add it to the article. I don't have the time at present. Thank you. Biosthmors (talk) pls notify me (i.e. {{U}}) while signing a reply, thx 14:08, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Description and aftermath

Why does this list give a description of the individual events they felt the need to protest? Selectively picking bits of information about each case is not neutral. The info can go on the page each case links to. I think the column should be deleted.--JudgeJason (talk) 18:12, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Disagree, there is no reason a summary cannot be made neutral, we do it routinely in article leads. If you feel that specific summaries could be more neutral, feel free to improve them subject to dispute by others, but you can't claim that all of them are inherently non-neutral. ―Mandruss ☎ 18:50, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

It's perfectly appropriate to summarize each event. Do you have any specifics to back the claim that the information was "selectively" picked?- MrX 19:00, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

As I read it, "selectively picking bits of information" meant summarizing, not cherry-picking; i.e., summaries are necessarily selective. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:05, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Some incidents have 1 sentence summary, while others have 2, 3, 4, 5, 6. You cannot summarise events that happened under questionable circumstances. The only relevant details are 1) a black person died and 2) non-black police were involved. Either the summaries should describe each event equally, or it's not neutral.--JudgeJason (talk) 19:16, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Not at all. Using the article lead comparison again, some leads are very long, some are very short - both in "questionable circumstances" - and that does not prove that leads are non-neutral. No offense but your argument just doesn't hold water, that's about as nice as I can say it. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:19, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

The only thing that I see that's slightly problematic is the gratuitous mention of President Obama's speech under Trayvon Martin.- MrX 19:25, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

The information in the summaries should be as columns instead. Such as Was Officer convicted, Cause of Death, was victim convicted previously? and so on. That makes it neutral.--JudgeJason (talk) 19:28, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Still disagree, but thankfully we have WP:CONSENSUS. If you can gain a consensus for your argument, I'll happily help you make the changes. You're currently alone on this. ―Mandruss ☎ 19:31, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

OK summaries are not neutral because they miss details such as

In favor of the deceased:

Shooting of Rekia Boyd should mention they were off-duty and the firearm was unregistered, and witnesses described shooter as drunk.

Dontre Hamilton no mention he was paranoid schizophrenic

In favor of police

Michael Brown does not mention his very large frame.

Ezell Ford does not mention Ford was already convicted.

Freddie Gray does not mention Ford was already convicted.

Tony Robinson does not mention Ford was already convicted.--JudgeJason (talk) 19:41, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

It's exactly the kind of debate that occurs around article leads; what's significant enough to include in a summary, what is not. Many would argue, for example, that prior convictions are not relevant enough to include in an article lead. You could make a case that these descriptions should be eliminated as an unwarranted WP:NPOV battleground, given that each article's lead is only a click away, and I wouldn't necessarily disagree. You could also suggest that each description be maintained as a copy of the first paragraph (or two, depending on the length) of each article's lead, which presumably is neutral by virtue of a group of editors working hard on it. Thus, the description for Samuel DuBose would read:

The shooting of Samuel DuBose occurred during a traffic stop for a missing front license plate on July 19, 2015, in Cincinnati, Ohio. DuBose, a black man, was fatally shot by Ray Tensing, a white University of Cincinnati police officer.

Or, the longer version, using two paragraphs from the lead:

The shooting of Samuel DuBose occurred during a traffic stop for a missing front license plate on July 19, 2015, in Cincinnati, Ohio. DuBose, a black man, was fatally shot by Ray Tensing, a white University of Cincinnati police officer. Tensing shot DuBose when he started his car and, according to Tensing, began to drive off. Tensing stated that he was being dragged when his arm became caught in the car. Prosecutors said that footage from Tensing's bodycam showed that he was not dragged, and, on July 29, a grand jury indicted him on charges of murder and voluntary manslaughter. He was then fired from the police department.

With such a system, any concerns about neutrality would be taken to the target article's talk page, not this one. This leaves the question of the "aftermath" part, but I'm not convinced that that part is more important than addressing the neutrality problem in some practical way. I would be interested in hearing other opinions about either proposition. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:16, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, this article should simply summarize the leads of each component articles. Any NPOV concerns should first be addressed at the individual articles.- MrX 20:48, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Actually the suggestion was to copy the beginning of the lead (or, as in the above example, all of the lead, since it currently has only two paragraphs), not summarize the lead. Not sure if that's what you meant, but there's a big difference between them. ―Mandruss ☎ 20:54, 8 August 2015 (UTC)

Hillary Clinton's billionaire campaign donor who indirectly helped to fund BLM is missing.

I don't see Soros being mentioned in this article, who funded both the Clinton campaign and BLM (indirectly). Shouldn't that be added somewhere especially considering the notable, growing attention the BLM movement is getting for attacking Bernie Sanders while giving Hillary Clinton a pass?

http://www.hngn.com/articles/60730/20150115/george-soros-billionaire-financier-behind-ferguson-protests-movements.htm

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2913625/Billionaire-George-Soros-spent-33MILLION-bankrolling-Ferguson-demonstrators-create-echo-chamber-drive-national-protests.html

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/09/1410138/-Political-Awareness-Matters-How-Black-Lives-Matter-Are-Screwing-Themselves-And-the-Rest-of-Us

http://www.foxnews.com/on-air/oreilly/index.html?intcmp=hpft#/v/4382576076001

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2015/08/08/1410064/-Bernie-Sanders-Interrupted-by-Black-Lives-Matter-Again

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2015/05/ferguson_protesters_demand_paychecks_for_gig_they_were_hired_to_perform.html

Seems a bit white-washed from this article. Cowicide (talk) 19:55, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Those are not reliable sources for a claim that Soros indirectly funded BLM. Hillary Clinton has nothing to do with this subject. WP:RS and WP:SYNTH apply.- MrX 20:32, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Wouldn't they be reliable sources to state that "Some have claimed Soros indirectly funded BLM"? moeburn (talk) 22:22, 9 August 2015 (UTC)