Talk:Jacobite Syrian Christian Church

Proposed Oriental Orthodoxy project

There is now a new proposed project at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals#Oriental Orthodoxy for a group which would focus on articles relating to the Oriental Orthodox Church. Any individuals interested in working with such a group should indicate as much there, to allow us to know if there is enough support to actually begin such a project. Thank you. Badbilltucker 14:30, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Requested move of interest

In case anyone here wants to weigh in, Eastern Rite Catholic Churches → Eastern Catholic Churches: See Talk:Eastern Rite Catholic Churches. Fishhead64 07:23, 18 February 2007 (UTC)

Why are they called Jacobites?

The article doesn't seem to spell out why this religious groups are called Jacobites. A brief history would be usefull. Cheers Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 13:22, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I am a jacobite and the history as told to me by fathers/priests in our parishes is that during the time long ago when christianity was at its nacent stage, christian were very much persecuted for being christians and at that time Bishop Jacob (presumably Jacob Bardaeus) was jailed and pretty much all christian priests were killed. Since the rite of becoming a priest in line of St. Peter continues only by putting ones hand on the one who is to be consecrteated as a priest and no other person could simply declare anyone priest, christianity was at the grave danger of being finished. but during his time in jail when ever people come to visit this bishop he would simply put his hand on the head of his faithfull visitor and consecreate him as priest so that the christian faith would continue in his subject. such was his devotion to christianity.

When did we came to be called as jacobites thats a confusion it was either since long ago, or after the koonan cross oath event or after some judicial order resulting the split of saint thomas christians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.238.8.105 (talk) 16:54, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Confusion...

This article says that the Jacobite Syrian Christian Church is also known as "Malankara Syrian Orthodox Church". There is also an article called Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church, which is also in Kerala. This is very confusing, and there should be something in the article that explains that they are different (if they are different — otherwise the articles would be merged). ... discospinster _talk 00:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Two Different Churches

They are two different churches in Kerala, both being part of Oriental Orthodoxy but this one being autonomous and the other being autocephalous. ܠܝܛܘ Liju ലിജു לג"ו (talk) 04:12, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Both are Syriac Orthodox Church in India(Malankara) Phantom (talk) 17:47, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

Church or Parish?

I was trying to do some copyedits to the above article and found this odd sentence The Church has dioceses and churches in most parts of India as well as in the USA, Canada, United Kingdom, Western Europe, and the Persian Gulf nations. A Church can't have churches! I think the editor means parishes. Do Jacobites call them parish? I have inserted hidden text with that question there and if it is fixed can the editor please remove the inserted text. Cheers Wiki San Roze ^†αLҝ 09:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Removed.Student7 (talk) 11:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Dioceses and bishops

I think dioceses and bishops should be associated together in some less demonstrative way. Supposed to be about church, not people, so list diocese first with their associated bishop(s). Student7 (talk) 11:52, 5 May 2008 (UTC) The dioceses are listed above the list of the bishops, aren't they? ܠܝܛܘ Liju ലിജു לג"ו (talk) 11:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Present situation of Church

The Patriarch fraction is known as Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church, and the Catholicos fraction as Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church. An Independent Orthodox Church body also exists since 1772 AD by name, Malabar Independent Syrian Church, which is not in communion either with the Patriarch or Catholicos.

Majority of the Orthodox christians in India,including me, accept the Patriarch of Antioch as the Spiritual leader, and Catholicos of East as the autocephelous head. Similar to the situation in Georgia, where Georgians accept the Catholicos of Georgia as their autocephelous head and Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople as the Spiritual head.

How does the above affect this article? We need WP:RELY references to document all statements, particularly controversial ones. "Fighting in the streets" appears to be documentable. Does either side support violence? Again, need references. The split in loyalty I think is already documented. But if it isn't, it should be. Student7 (talk) 13:09, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Articles on Common History

There are Six articles which claim common history of Saint Thomas Christians out of this 4 have almost similar contents about the same period. To avoid repetitive articles and to improve the quality of the article, share about WP:RELY sources and re organization of these articles.

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indian Christianity#About the articles on Saint Thomas Christians common history Pamparam (talk) 03:11, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Bishops of the Church

This section is horribly mismanaged, with all caps, misspellings and errors. 122.166.154.248 (talk) 09:35, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Mis-edited originally. Suggestion: try to correct one or two when you are looking at the article. With a couple of us doing this, it won't take too long. Of course, no one wants to read such a list now. All sorts of editors in the world!  :) Student7 (talk) 19:12, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

Malankara Jacobite Syrian Christian Church

This should be the name, not Jacobite Syrian.... Credit Risk (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:05, 20 October 2010 (UTC).

note that his sermon at mass was in English. Not clear on whether the chantings were Aramaic. 67.161.249.235 (talk) 07:14, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Deposed Patriarch??

It is common understanding that desposition was not the crux of the issue... The issues started from the late 19^th century itself. Concluding that a consecration of a bishop led to all trouble is nothing but terrible wrong history. Whoever has done so, is creating blocks for unity. Credit Risk (talk) 03:20, 11 November 2010 (UTC)

So who is Jacob?

It would be nice if a link could be provided somewhere in the article, or even in the intro, to this church's namesake. Rwflammang (talk) 19:17, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

If you watch the Mass Ceremony, Israel is Jacob at the conclusion of the sermon.

Another good question would be, is Jacobite communion wine or grape juice? 67.161.249.235 (talk) 07:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

ST. YACOUB BURD'ONO

http://jacobitesyrianchurch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=57&Itemid=67 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nibumjohn (talk • contribs) 09:08, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Who founded the Church?

The Jacobite Syrian Christian Church website gives the following information.

[1] THE FOUNDING OF CHURCH

Who established the church in India? People belonging to every Christian denomination of Kerala, in one voice would answer St. Thomas. Syrian Orthodox Church also believes so, St.Thomas reached Kodungallur by ship in AD 52. The widely accepted tradition is that St. Thomas visited various places and baptized many Jews and Hindus and thus began the process of establishing the Church. Middle east countries and Kerala had trade relations during the early centuries. So it may not have been difficult for St. Thomas to reach the coasts of Kerala.

[2] CHURCH IN INDIA

St. Thomas, one of the twelve apostles of Jesus Christ, is the founder of the ancient Church in India. Christian writers and historians from the 4th century refer to the evangelistic work of Apostle Thomas in India, and the Indian Christians ascribe the origin of their Church to the labors of the apostle in the 1st century.117.202.114.86 (talk) 19:36, 12 February 2013 (UTC)

Language in coat of arms?

What are the two languages which are seen in the emblem? The one on the right can be confused between Urdu, Arabic and Persian.

On reading the article one may guess it to be Persian, but could someone please confirm it, and explain why these two languages were specifically chosen? Yetanotherwriter (talk) 07:28, 25 January 2016 (UTC)

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Users like Roshyf2 & Iravikorthanan are continuously making impulse moves and changes in the article with out any proper reference. Also they edit Wikipedia in a way to confuse readers that Marthoma church is the true successor church of the Malankara church forgetting the facts in references which says Marthoma church got separated from Malankara church in 1889 with results of Anglican reformation. Also argues with unnecessary claims like Marthoma Church is another Malankara Church. Here I want to make it clear that Malankara Church is an Oriental Orthodox Church , however Marthoma church is an Anglican Reformed church got legally separated from Malankara church in 1889 with the Travancore Royal Court verdict which declared that the Reformist faction in the Malankara church has NO rights spiritually or temporally in the existing Malankara Church. The Reformists organised as a new independent church called Reformed Syrian church. After the death of Thomas Mar Athanasius, they adopted a new name for the church called Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar. They cannot claim any spiritual or temporal lineage of the Malankara Church. Iravikorthanan and Roshyf2 knowingly or unknowingly want to hide this fact and want to project that Marthoma church is another Malankara church to confuse wiki readers. User:Kokkarani Phantom (talk) 07:25, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 13 July 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 04:30, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

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Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox church → Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church – There was a series of moves here without any discussion or explanation. As such, I'm going to request that this be returned to the page move done as an allegedly uncontroversial move. That makes a lot more sense that User:Roshyf2's odd page move to some JSCC naming allegedly based on church records and then second move a minute later without any explanation. There's incoming links to maybe a half dozen different names here so that does not help matters. Ricky81682 (talk) 06:50, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

• Support. This is the correct and WP:COMMONAME, as any search will quickly reveal.[3] The church also goes by "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" or "Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church" but the "Malankara" makes it clear we're talking about the Indian branch of the Syriac Orthodox Church/Jacobite/Syrian Orthodox church.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:48, 13 July 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 14 July 2016

Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church → ? @Ricky81682 and Iravikorthanan: – a new move discussion was started in my user talk page. Please discuss here. Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:18, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

• Ok, I'm going to request that this be returned to the page move done twice as an allegedly uncontroversial move or Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church. That makes a lot more sense that User:Roshyf2's odd page move to some JSCC naming allegedly based on church records and then second move a minute later without any explanation. There's incoming links to maybe a half dozen different names here so that does not help matters. @Cuchullain: who responded above and may not be aware that we're here again. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 05:26, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

• Dear Ricky81682

The Exact Name Has to be Jacobite Syrian Christian Church . Pls See http://www.syrianchurch.org/ which is the official website of the Jacobite church which erroneously Wiki is calling Malankara Jacobite Orthodox church. In fact there is no church named Malankara Jacobite orthodox church in kerala officially. A church may be called by different names , which can be detailed in the article but a totally non existing title for a church is misleading and confusing. Also see the website of their Parent church Syrian Orthodox Church http://syrianorthodoxchurch.org/directories/world/india/ . It clearly states that the Jacobite syrian christian church which is erroneously detailed under the Title Malankara Jacobite Syrian Church is only a Malankara Archdiocese of the Syrian Orthodox Church in India .

Now see the google search record. It is seen that this name is not used as title name any where but only in wikipedia .The google news search with "Malankara Jacobite orthodox church" yields only 136 results however with "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" Yeilds 665 results. Similarly in Google books The name "Malankara Jacobite church" figures only 1600 times but the name Jacobite SyriaN Christain Church Yeilds 27000 results. This Statistics itself shows that 'Jacobite Syrian Christian Church' is the name used for the church and they are commonly refered as jacobiteS.

However I do not ignore the fact that Malankara church of 1653 comprises of those believers now in five different churches some independent and some under the jurisdiction of other churches. And they use The name Malankara along with them.

pls see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malankara_Church Iravikorthanan (talk) 06:04, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

pls see the constitution of Jacobite church http://www.malankaraworld.com/LIBRARY/constitution/Malankara/Yakobaya%20Bharanaghadana.pdf and in particular the Article 12 - 14 Since the document is in Malayalam i will translate the same for better understanding The church is a part of Syrian Orthodox Church and has the name as Jacobite syrian christian church

pls see the Constitution of Syrian Orthodox church http://www.malankaraworld.com/LIBRARY/constitution/syrian-orthodox-church/constitution-syrian-orthodox-church.htm and in particular the article 4 and sub 31 That Jscc is referred as a arch diocese.

pls see the internet tv of this church http://www.malankaravision.com/index.php which clearly states Jacobite Syrian Christian Church

Hence suggested the name , Jacobite Syrian Christian Church which is the legal and official name of the church , the other details such as Malankara and others can be referred inside .Thus the name Malankara JaCobite Syrian Orthodox Church Is inappropriate as the name don not exist in anywhere even church records or official Government channels or documentsIravikorthanan (talk) 10:59, 14 July 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose a move from this title, unless it's going to Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church. As I said in the last RM, "Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church" is the correct and WP:COMMONNAME. The only thing that's more common is the shorter form "Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church", though this runs some risk of confusion with the wider Syriac Orthodox Church, alias the Jacobite or Syrian Orthodox Church, of which this is part. "Malankara Jacobite Syrian Christian Church and "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" are in use, but are less common than the "Orthodox" form. As can be seen on the Church's webpage, it uses most of these forms inconsistently, we may as well go with the more common one.--Cúchullain ^t/c 13:50, 14 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose, currently at its best title, to avoid confusion with other church bodies (Malankara churches and the Syriac Orthodox Church).--Zoupan 00:49, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

• Request moveThe more common name is Jacobite chuch , Without Suffixes or prefixes , Malankara Jacobite syrian Orthodox church as a name doesnot exist at all, Neither official nor colloquial, However some Jacobite people started using the name it is not widely accepted nor used. The article had the title Jacobite Syrian Christian church from 2007 onwards till 19:37, 2 February 2016‎ till a wiki editor moved page Jacobite Syrian Christian Church to Malanakara Jacobite Syriac Orthodox Church aka Malankara Syrian Church giving the reason that Title is incorrecet. From The statistics based on Google News and Google books ,it is well proved the title Malankara Jacobite orthodox church is highly un popular and un common. And church website , church constitution , Church tv (links given above)categorically states that the name of Church is JACOBITE SYRIAN CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Moreover Malankara Jacobite Orthodox Syrian Church does not figure in any independent, reliable English-language sourcesWikipedia:Identifying reliable sources or neither official sources Wikipedia:Official names. Hence its is strongly requested to rename the article to pre Febrary 2016 which was holding for almost 10 years.Iravikorthanan (talk) 11:15, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose move
• Please see the 1934 constitution of Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church.(authenticated by the Supreme court of India)

Orthodox Syrian Church ( Syrian Orthodox church) is erroneously called as Jacobites. So the Malankara Church is also erroneously called as Jacobites. Please see the third clause of the constitution which states that [3]The ancient and the real name of the Malankara Church is the Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church although it is also wrongly called ‘The Jacobite Church’, for the same reason for which the Orthodox Syrian Church has been also called so.

So what is the problem with Malankara usage ? It says Malankara Church was also erroneously called as Jacobite Church. That means Malankara Church is restricted to the Jacobite Church(Orthodox&Jacobite). Malankara Church=Jacobite Church(Orthodox&Jacobite)(Oriental Orthodox Church) Phantom (talk) 12:10, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

• Request move

The church referred here is Jacobite syrian christian church under the Patriarch of Antioch ( they have their own constitution) . The 1934 constitution is applicable for the Metran kakshis now called as Malankara Orthodox church under Catholicose and they believe the authority of Patriarch in their church is null. The supreme court has verdict ed in favor of them and . Malankara churches include those churches which was under Marthoma I in 1653 which includes Jacobites, Orthodoxians, Thozhiyoor, MarThoma Syrians , mALANKARA cATHOLICS and evanjelikals of today. Why the Jacobites which got Royal court verdict in favor of them could not succeed in Supreme court of India Later? Because the false canon provided in Royal court was proved manipulated and fraud later ( Recall Kappi canon) in Supreme court. However that is different topic of discussion, Here the name now projected after feb 2016 is just to moot a false and confusing impression , that is why it is requested to move the name to old one which was there since 2007 in wikipedia , which is more common and officialIravikorthanan (talk) 12:35, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Oppose move

• 1995 Supreme court of India verdict

Court Findings

In A.D. 37 Apostolic See at Antioch was established by St. Peter to whom the stewardship of Church was entrusted by Lord Jesus Christ. It took root in Kerala within 20 years of the epoch making events in Jerusalem, the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ. St. Thomas, one of the 12 apostles of Jesus Christ visited India in A.D. 51/52 and established 7 Churches in the Malayalam speaking parts of South India. They are known as Malankara Jacobite (or orthodox) Syrian Church, "Malankara" means "Malayalam speaking" `The two Syrian Orthodox Churches in Syria and India, along with the Egyptian (Coptic), Ethiopian, and Armenian Churches, belong to the group of Ancient, or Oriental Orthodox, Churches, wrongly called "monophysite".

Thus the learned Supreme court of India authenticated that the Proper uasage is Malankara Jacobite(or Orthodox) Syrian Church. Not less Not more... Phantom (talk) 12:38, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

• Request move-1995 Supreme court of India verdict* The copy paste is un- reliable. More over its courts interpretation of the conflict between two factions of Jacobite church and not suggesting any name.We are discussing on a name all these explanations of your interpretations can be detailed in the article if need? The discussion is that the name of the article is neither common nor official. It is immaterial what you or a group calls a churchor inteprets its church to be?Iravikorthanan (talk) 12:48, 15 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose move

If copy paste is unreliable, please go and read it in Google..this is the link- www.malankaraorthodoxtv.in/Court%20Orders/Court%20Orders.htm Phantom (talk) 13:04, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose move

Please read the Supreme court of India verdict----- The most sensitive issue which has been subject of great debate in this Court was posed as Question No.18, "Has the Malankara Church become an autocephalous church?

and it was answered against the respondent by recording the finding:- Most. Rev. P.M.A. Metropolitan & ... vs Moran Mar Marthoma & Anr on 20 June, 1995 Indian Kanoon - http://indiankanoon.org/doc/634316/ 25

"We, therefore, hold that the Malankara Church is not an autocephalous church but is a part or division of the world Orthodox Syrian Church and set aside the finding of learned single judge that the Catholicos group has now established an autoceohalous church. We hold that while Patriarch of Antioch is the head of the World Orthodox Syrian church, Catholicos of the East who is subject to the Constitution is head of the Malankara Church and the relationship between Patriarchate and the Malankara Church is governed by the provisions of the Constitution."

This was the finding recorded in Moran Mar Basselios (supra) as well. It has not been challenged, therefore, it has become final. Phantom (talk) 13:27, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

• Request move I really surprised seeing Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church(?) as title for this article. I do not know the relevance of this discussion itself. Here one user deliberately creating confusion among Wikipedia Editors and Admins by quoting Malankara Orthodox Church's constitution and Supreme Court verdict (in 1995) on Malankara Church Case. Jacobite faction of Malankara Church formed a new constitution in 2002. In this constitution it is clearly written in Malayalam that church name is YAKKOBAYA SURIYANI KRISTHIYANI SABHA that is nothing but JACOBITE SYRIAN CHRISTIAN CHURCH. Also please click on church's official news portal (http://www.jscnews.org)link provided in Infobox . It is written there this site is " Official News Portal of Jacobite Syrian Christian Church". Still any one having doubt, please call up on the Patriarchal Centre(Jacobite Church Center) phone number provided in that website and check with church officials or please send a mail to the e-mail ID given there. Hence requesting the ADMINISTRATORS to change the article title as "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" at the earliest ---45.125.147.173 (talk) 11:47, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose move

I don't want to confuse anybody. I just quoted the 1932 constitution of Malankara Orthodox Syrian Church and 1995 Supreme court of India verdict in Malankara Church case to show that Jacobite Syrian church is a Malankara Church or Malankara branch of the Syriac Orthodox church of Antioch. If you simply say Jacobite church it means Syriac Orthodox church of Antioch. If you say Malankara Jacobite you mean Jacobite christian in India. So Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church is a good title to describe the Indian branch of the Syriac Orthodox Church. Also please see the references I quoted for the names in the Article.Thanks Phantom (talk) 13:47, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

• Request move Keep the official name of the church. Also church is known by this name only. There is no valid reason I am seeing for keeping the article title as "Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church". For indicating this church is Malankara branch of the Syriac Orthodox church of Antioch, we can not change the name of the church. Mention that in the article. Wikipedia editors are not supposed to take church synod's role ---45.126.207.114 (talk) 17:06, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

erroneously referred to as Jacobites?

First line of current version of this article is that The Malankara Jacobite Syrian Orthodox Church aka Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church commonly and erroneously referred to as Jacobites. This is a contradictory statement as the official name of this church is "Jacobite Syrian Christian Church" - --45.125.147.173 (talk) 12:10, 16 July 2016 (UTC)

Need Reference for "also known as Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church"

Need a reference for this church also known as Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church . Any churches in Kerala, known by this name? ---45.125.147.173 (talk) 12:18, 16 July 2016 (UTC)