Talk:Philippa York

Recent changes

I have made the page a little more attractive (i think) and added Millar's Palmares. I also added some images I have of Robert riding.

--Chisa12345 21:44, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

My recollection was that Millar was 2nd to Steve Lawrence in the British road race championships in 1978 (not first). The next year was a repeat 2 man breakaway but this time Millar got the better of Lawrence. When asked how he out sprinted the better sprinter he said something along the lines that he pummeled him before the finish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.188.138.158 (talk) 19:07, June 12, 2007

Hi,

The thing about none of Robert's teammates knowing about Robert's wedding or the fact he even had a gilrfriend is preposterous. Sylvie is actually Pascal Simon's sister in law so there were many, many articles in the French press (L'Equipe, Velo magazine) mentioning this as early as 1983... The whole cycling scene knew that Robert was dating Pascal's sister in law... Phil Anderson's comment is but a cheap joke that shouldn't be in the middle of a Wikipedia article.

Phillipa York

Would anyone mind if I deleted the "today known as Phillipa York" part? I don't think tabloids are the most reliable sources. I mean...as far as I know, bat boy doesn't exist. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 74.72.53.76 (talk) 04:49, July 9, 2007

In the book "In Search of Robert Millar" it is obvious that talk of Robert being a woman was taken out of context. Somebody created a false rumour and reporters mentioned it to former friends of Robert. At the time, they leapt to his defence by saying, IF it was true then they wouldn't care. This has since been used as evidence that he was a woman. It is known that Robert is not a woman and has been seen many times (since his so-called disappearance). He may have long hair and gained a little upper body fat for the Tae Kwon Do he now takes part in but that does not make him a woman. So all the Robert Millar haters can find someone else to put down. The only Phillipa in Robert's life is his DAUGHTER.

While the Daily Mail article itself seems to have been taken off the site, the photo of Robert Millar and the woman it is claimed that he has become remains on the Daily Mail website [1]. --Timtak (talk) 02:40, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

A very poor use of PhotoShop. There is a photo in the book that is said to have started the scurrilous rumours but it does not look a bit like that faked photo. The photo in the books shows Robert with long hair but having put some weight on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.159.244 (talk) 12:32, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

This article must adhere to the policy on biographies of living persons. Controversial material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted or if there are other concerns relative to this policy, report it on the living persons biographies noticeboard.Racklever (talk) 09:56, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

All a load of bollocks, dreamed up by some Spaniards to put down Robert for attempting to win La Vuelta. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.159.244 (talk) 21:51, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Latest news on transition to Philippa York http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/a-statement-from-cyclingnews-contributor-philippa-york/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 135.245.48.81 (talk) 18:07, 6 July 2017 (UTC)

With all due respect, Philippa York has never competed as a professional cyclist, and as such has never figured in the start or finish lists of any professional cycling competitions. The insistance of certain users to retroactiviely apply York's identity to the racing career of Robert Millar is, while surely well-intentioned, misleading and factually incorrect at best, and would appear to contradict York's own perspective on her transition:

"Asked how she has dealt in recent years with the fact that the world of cycling had one image of her and she had another, York says: “I can only deal with that by putting the Robert part of my life into one box and the life I live now into another.

“What I did before wasn’t done by the person I am now so it’s not a case of changing history. I think for most people looking at this from the outside that’s the easiest way for them to process it. That’s my opinion – others may disagree and that’s fine.”"

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jul/06/philippa-york-gender-transition-cyclist-robert-millar — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.4.33.5 (talk) 14:24, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Per MOS:GENDERID, for trans people we use the pronouns and other gendered words corresponding to the latest expressed gender identity throughout the article. Funcrunch (talk) 15:25, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

That seems to me to be a misreading of MOS:GENDERID. It states that the most up to date sources should be used. In this case the most up to date sources probably suggest the compartmentalisation above. It then goes on to say that the latest designation should be used when a person's gender identity might be questioned - I don't think anyone's questioning it in this case, they're explicitly acknowledging that there was a Robert era and now there's a different era. In any event the latter policy says "This applies in references to any phase of that person's life, unless the subject has indicated a preference otherwise" - surely the above represents "a preference otherwise"? 90.193.66.90 (talk) 22:15, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

First winner

Millar was the first British winner of a classification in a major tour (Giro, Tour, Vuelta) and not the only winner. Malcolm Elliott won the points jersey in the tour of spain circa 1990. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Barry Roubaix (talk • contribs) 11:53, July 12, 2007.

Elliott won the first stage of La Vuelta and had the points jersey for one stage. Elliott did not "win" the jersey ie. held it after the tour had ended. By your logic Barry Hoban was the first to "win" the green jersey in the Tour de France. No he did not. He held it. Mark Cavendish was the first to win the green jersey in the Tour de France. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.112.159.244 (talk) 10:18, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

The first comment is corrct - Elliott won the points jersey in the 1989 Vuelta- see 1989 Vuelta a España. --Bcp67 (talk) 14:57, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Missing image?

There's a comment "Millar (right) with Laurent Fignon" at the top of the infobox which seems to imply an image that is no longer present. Can anyone please sort this out...?

--R J Sutherland 18:37, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Done Severo^TC 18:41, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to one external link on Robert Millar. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

• Added archive http://web.archive.org/web/20121019072512/http://homepage.mac.com/ch.edinburgh/bff/BW07/PDF/BFF07.pdf to http://homepage.mac.com/ch.edinburgh/bff/BW07/PDF/BFF07.pdf

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

• If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
• If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 05:03, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

WP:NAMECHANGE WP:NAMECHANGES

Per that policy, the article should still be at the name under which the subject gained notability. If her journalistic career ever outreaches her cycling career in notability, a move is appropriate, otherwise it is the name by which she gained fame, rather than the name that she chooses to use now, that best serves readers. Kevin McE (talk) 19:02, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps you meant some other policy as WP:NAMECHANGE refers to Wikipedia usernames. Regardless, this is a transgender woman and as with Caitlyn Jenner, who gained notability as an athlete under her previous name, the rename to Philippa York should be restored with a redirect from Robert Millar, her previous name. With the redirect and ample mentions of her previous name and identity in the article, there should be no confusion. Funcrunch (talk) 19:13, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

I agree, we have done this in countless other instances where transgender people change from one gender to another, so it should be restored. This is Paul (talk) 19:43, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

Apologies: I missed a letter from the policy that I linked to. It is WP:NAMECHANGES. Kevin McE (talk) 10:06, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 7 July 2017

Robert Millar → Philippa York – I am proposing this move because the subject has undergone gender reassignment and recently announced that they wish to be known by a different name, i.e., that they wish to assume a female identity. The article was moved to Philippa York earlier today, but has since been moved back with WP:NAMECHANGE cited as the reason for doing so. As there is a precedent for moving these articles (see, for example, Stephanie Hirst, Chelsea Manning, Kellie Maloney and Caitlyn Jenner) then there should be no drama about moving this article as well. However, I'm making this request because of the move history. This is Paul (talk) 20:52, 7 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support move (back) to Philippa York, with a redirect from Robert Millar, as is standard across Wikipedia for biographies of trans people. Per MOS:GENDERID we need to give precedence to the most recent expressed gender identification. Funcrunch (talk) 21:27, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support move (back) to Philippa York, with a redirect from Robert Millar. possible inclusion of Birthname in info box. Dimspace (talk) 22:54, 7 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support moving back to Philippa York. MOS:GENDERID applies; information page cited in move revert does not. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 02:57, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Please explain why GENDERID, a subsection within the vocabulary section of the Manual of Style, applies to Article titles. The boilerplate above says "Please base arguments on article title policy": GENDERID is not part of that, NAMECHANGES is. Kevin McE (talk) 10:42, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

From MOS section on article titles: "The guidance contained elsewhere in the MoS...applies to all parts of an article, including the title." GENDERID provides explicit guidance for specific instances such as this one; the article title policy does not. Rivertorch^FIRE_WATER 16:09, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support per MOS:GENDERID. EternalNomad (talk) 04:36, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:NAMECHANGES (with apologies for having accidentally cited a different policy while meaning to refer to this one yesterday).

"Sometimes, the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, the COMMONNAME section of this page still applies": the COMMONNAME by which this individual is notable is still Millar.

"...but we give extra weight to sources written after the name change is announced": it might be that in future a generous assessment of her journalism career will make a change suitable, although I for one doubt that, unless a lot of extra weight is given.

"If the sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. If, on the other hand, sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well, per COMMONNAME": I do not expect people writing about the history of stage racing in the 1980s to start applying the name York to the performances, nor do I expect York as a journalist to draw attention to herself rather that to the subjects of her articles.

"Wikipedia is not a crystal ball. We do not know what terms or names will be used in the future, but only what is and has been in use, and is therefore familiar to our readers ": Millar is the name familiar to our readers.

"if the subject of an article has a name change, it is reasonable to consider the usage following the change in reliable, English language sources": I do not think that, beyond the flurry of interest this weekend, that reliable English language sources will contonue to talk about York much at all. Indeed, if they are respectful of her choice, they will probably have nothing to talk about in reference to her, any more so than we read articles about, rather than by, William Fotheringham or Daniel Benson.

MOS:Genderid is a subsection of the vocabulary section of the Manual of Style; WP:namechanges is part of the policy WP:Article titles. The boilerplate above determines the policy that is relevant. Kevin McE (talk) 10:40, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

• Comment Is to change all the names in the article, from Millar to York, necessary? I mean, York did not run any Vuelta or Tour de France, while all his/her career was comlpeted as Robert Millar. And his name remains as "Millar" in all the Vuelta and Tour articles. Asturkian (talk) 12:14, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Now that is where MoS:Genderid is relevant, but this discussion is about the article title. Kevin McE (talk) 12:21, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

It says to use her gender where gender is necessary but is ambiguous about other names. Peter James (talk) 22:12, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose Well, about the title I oppose, as you said, per WP:COMMONNAME. More than the 90% of the people would find this article by typing "Robert Millar" or by links from cycling articles. Asturkian (talk) 13:28, 8 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support According to Wikipedia:Article titles, "inaccurate names for the article subject, as determined in reliable sources, are often avoided even though they may be more frequently used by reliable sources". "Robert Millar" now seems to be inaccurate except in historical context. Peter James (talk) 22:12, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

The historical context is precisely where the subject has notability, not the present, and now abandoned is not the same as inaccurate. WP:NAMECHANGES suggests weighting in favour of the more recent in considering the balance of uses of the name in reliable sources, it does not prescribe totally ignoring historical use. As I suggest above, it is possible, but not (IMO) likely, that her notability as a reporter might one day justify moving the article, but it does not yet. Kevin McE (talk) 08:42, 9 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support (as original mover) move (back) to Philippa York, with a redirect from Robert Millar, this reflects best and most consistent practice. No Swan So Fine (talk) 11:39, 9 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support Wikipedia is over 16 years old and in that time, attitudes towards gender reassignment have continued to evolve. Recent practice on several other articles has been to rename, and this also follows common sense. We are not bound to slavishly follow WP:NAMECHANGES, and note that WP:COMMONNAME's use of the phrase that the most common name is "generally preferred". My suggestion is that this is a case where the 'generally' might not work. --Super Nintendo Chalmers (talk) 09:14, 10 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support The subject of the article, while achieving fame under one name, has asked that they be referred to NOW by another name, a name that reflects their identity. We should respect that wish. I must say that the text today (11th July 2017) reads very well, very respectful, not hiding controversy, but giving depth. Well done Brunswicknic (talk) 13:13, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support While dealing with name changes like this without new mention of the subject might be a concern in the future, I think York has had plenty of coverage to support the name change: The Guardian, The Tndependent, The Telegraph, and BBC. I think that satisfies "If the sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match." menaechmi (talk) 18:27, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's too soon at best. We follow usage in reliable sources, and I would not include sources to pieces about the name change. I see no evidence of any current reliable sources published about this person (besides the name change) which we can even follow. So, for now, we have go with older sources. The situation is very similar to that of Cat Stevens who changed his name for religious reasons rather than gender change, but the same underlying principles about following usage in reliable sources applies. I will add that it appears that the person who now goes by Philippa York is only notable for who she was as Robert Millar. --В²C ☎ 01:21, 12 July 2017 (UTC)
• Support Philippa York is, right at this very moment, on ITV 4 as a cycling expert because of her earlier career. Philippa York is Robert Millar; she is not notable for who she was as Robert Millar. She has undergone a gender change and wishes to be known by her new name. With various precedents for others who have done this, I see no reason why this page can't be moved (back) to Philippa York, with a redirect from Robert Millar. DJDonegal (talk) 10:03, 13 July 2017 (UTC)