Talk:Andrew Wakefield

Book

I removed a plot summary of the book sourced from the book itself. The reasons are, I think, obvious: Wakefield is a proven liar and citing his own opinion on how he was wronged without the context of independent commentary is a gross failure of WP:NPOV. The solution is simple - replace the plot summary with a review in a reliable independent source. That's what i set out to do. And oddly, it turns out to be rather difficult: reliable sources ignored Wakefield's book. It appears to have been treated as someone saying "and another thing..." long after they lost the argument. Oh there are reviews, fawning ones on quack autism sites (Age of Autism for example) and occasional snarky ones on skeptical blogs, but there's nothing I can find in reliable sources. A few places repeat the publisher's blurb, obviously unacceptable, but literary sites that can be relied on to discuss the book's objective merit appear to have universally ignored it. So unless we're going to drop our sourcing criteria to the level of whale.to and LeftBrainRightBrain, we can't cover this other than as it currently is, a note of its existence under Publications. Guy (Help!) 08:53, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I have to admit, when I first saw the diff where you removed the article section on Callous Disregard I was a bit concerned and I was afraid I might have to come to this talk page to push back. Even though Wakefield is a fraud and his book a heap of self-serving twaddle, I thought it would be wrong to just drop his one major bit of recent 'popular' writing down the memory hole.

...Fortunately, that's not what happened. Callous Disregard is (still) mentioned and appropriately described at at least three points in the article's main text. It's also still at the top of the list of Selected Publications. We still give reasonable and proportionate coverage to the work. Good call. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:01, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Guys even though reliable sources call his work "fraud", calling him "a liar" and "a fraud" here doesn't look very much like NPOV to be honest. I would suggest giving your viewpoints without the unneeded adjectives. Thinker78 (talk) 01:17, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

WP:NOTNEUTRAL. Tgeorgescu (talk) 01:36, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

Quotes

in general i think the quotes are unhelpful and plan to remove them, adding additional summary where needed. quotes are newspaper stuff usually done for "color", not encyclopedia stuff. just a heads up in case anybody wants to object. We lose no encyclopedic information by summarizing; summarizing is what we do. Jytdog (talk) 15:53, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I think that's probably a good thing yet one must be careful not to remove quotes just because they are quotes. For example if the quote is from one of the actors in the incidents being discussed -- the criminality or ethics violations, things of substance -- the quotes should be retained if they are relevant and flow logically.

The issues here is that more information is better than less and quotes from major actors (including when from a WP:BLP) are important and informative provided references and citations are provided which support the quote.

On the other hand quotes that are just provided to add filler to an otherwise empty sandwich can distract and clutter. So removal of quotes can either help or hinder. The core reason to exist is to provide information and a jumping-off point for people to click links to follow threads they're interested in, either for school work or for their own edification, I doubt that Wikipedia is used for legal or medical research. :)

Good luck! You may find contention from editors since the individual in question has a history that some editors would like to see expunged, others want to see fully described. Don't be discouraged if people object. :) Damotclese (talk) 16:21, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

disgraced

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I would also add that I find the use of the word disgraced in the opening sentence to be far too emotive for being suitably used. While it's true that the individual's behavior was disgraceful, and while it's true that his reputation was rightfully disgraced, the use of the word isn't very encyclopedic, not really professional. Damotclese (talk) 16:25, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

It's how he is normally characterised (e.g. [1], [2], [3]). "Former gastroenterologist" implies that he retired. He didn't. He was struck off. It's no different from opening the lede of an article on a convicted criminal by calling theme exactly that. Disgraced former doctor is pretty much the consensus view. Guy (Help!) 16:35, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I remember the discussions about the wording of the "former gastroenterolgist" that we had a month or so ago, it's just that the word "disgraced" seems rather unprofessional.

Re-reading the article again, it seems to me that it's a shame that insofar as a WP:BLP is concerned, the extant article is woefully thin. The article is about Wakefield's criminal and unethical behavior, it's not really a biography. A solid biography would contain fairly extensive details about his up-bringing, schooling, family background and some history, it would include achievements as well as details about his failures and frauds. In all the biography is kind of thin here.

Still, after re-reading it, I don't see any cause to remove any quotes; the article looks pretty golden to me at this point other than needing to be fleshed out insofar as a WP:BLP is concerned. Damotclese (talk) 16:54, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Bluntly, if it weren't for his role in creating "the most damaging medical hoax of the last 100 years", we almost certainly would not have a biography at all. Virtually all sources about Wakefield are about his fraud, but the story has run long enough, and with sufficient additional bullshit from the antivax cult, that by now there's not really any hope of merging or any title we could use other than his name. Guy (Help!) 17:24, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

If he was notable for doing valuable work as a researcher and gastromumble, then perhaps one would expect his BLP to be covering such work, to be "fleshed out" a bit. but frankly fleshing out for BLP's sake is asking a bit much. Also, disgraced fits very well. -Roxy, Zalophus californianus. barcus 18:23, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

That's true, he's otherwise not a notable character. Damotclese (talk) 20:47, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

He's known for a complicated crime, his involvement in its denial, and the following perpetuation of the personality cult it created. Otherwise he wouldn't have an article. His infamy is his only claim to fame.

If anything, the "Epidemics, effects, and reception" section should be updated to document what's been happening. That section could easily be twice its size.

The consequences of his false ideas have grown roots and we'll see more deaths and epidemics for a generation or two because of his dastardly behavior. He has gotten off very light. He should be in prison. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 14:31, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I strongly object to the word "disgraced" in this article. Wikipedia is supposed to be impartial and fact based. The word "disgraced" is inflammatory and defamatory opinion based. If I am to continue using Wikipedia as a trusted resource for factual information I require this to be ammended. If you wish to avoid being accused of gross hypocracy, why then is the word "disgraced" used for the opening description of Dr Andrew Wakefield and not Jimmy Saville, Rolf Harris, Max Clifford, Bill Cosby... ? Davijee (talk) 08:16, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

In addition to my above comment add Nicolaus Copernicus. He was "disgraced" and spent the rest of his life locked up for his theories that the earth moves around the Sun. Why is there no emotive defamatory description of his name? Davijee (talk) 08:24, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Was not Harold Shipman "disgraced" ? Davijee (talk) 08:32, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Wakefield is disgraced, so this is fact-based. The word is probably in some of the sources given.

You are confusing Nicolaus Copernicus with Galileo Galilei. See also Galileo Gambit for that comparison. Neither Copernicus nor Galilei is disgraced at the moment.

Also, WP:OTHERTHINGSEXIST. There is no rule that all disgraced people need to be described in exactly the same words.

So, all your reasoning is bad. Nevertheless, ignoring all your shrieking after the first sentence, the word is indeed not really needed. Opinions, anyone? --Hob Gadling (talk) 13:54, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Given that the rest of that (very long) first sentence specifies the reasons for Wakefield's removal from the register, the word "disgraced" adds nothing of encyclopedic value. NewYorkActuary (talk) 14:11, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

The word is mild, compared to what he deserves, but we document what RS say, and that's their accurate description. Bill Gates criticized Wakefield in very strong words("So it's an absolute lie that has killed thousands of kids."), and said that anti-vaccine activists "kill children". So true.

Wakefield was relatively unknown before this whole scandal, which is his sole claim to fame. Wikipedia's job is to document what RS say, and 99% of what they discuss is about his multiple dishonest and unethical actions.

Davijee fails to understand NPOV. Neutrality applies to editorial conduct while editing, whereas content and sources do not have to be neutral or unbiased. Editors must remain neutral in the way they document biased sources, and they must preserve that bias, not censor or neuter it. If they did that, they would be violating NPOV and misrepresenting the sources. My essay explains this in detail. Wikipedia's job is to document reality, and reality is rarely neutral, hence articles won't always seem neutral, but that bias is from the sources, not from editors (Wikipedia). -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 14:31, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

I note that the opening sentences of Jimmy Savile, for instance, describe him as "...a predatory sex offender—possibly one of Britain's most prolific." While that article and this one use different words – because they are, after all, different articles about different events and different people – the insinuation that the use of the particular word 'disgraced' means we're being more critical of Wakefield than Savile doesn't really hold water. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:26, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Categorization

I recently removed 3 categories, 1 for overlapping with another, and 2 for violating the WP:Categorization principles, specifically the set categories part. My edit was reverted by SkepticalRaptor, who thought the change should be discussed. So here we are.

The name of a set category is always in plural, and (simply put), for an article to be in a set category, it has to be what the category name describes. The two set categories that I removed – Category:Medical scandals in the United Kingdom and Category:Academic scandals – should not contain people. They should contain scandals. People are not scandals.

You cannot categorize articles "by association", so to speak. A notable cat that was often involved in fights with dogs would not be categorized as a dog.

In this particular case, Wakefield was (heavily) involved in the MMR vaccine scandal. That does not mean that he was the scandal. The scandal itself was the scandal, and it is rightly categorized as such. Wakefield's involvement is covered by the "People associated with the MMR vaccine controversy" category. (The overlapping category that I removed was "MMR vaccine controversy".)

Look, I'm not trying to whitewash Wakefield, which is why I left the set categories Category:English fraudsters, Category:Anti-vaccination activists and Category:Medical doctors struck off by the General Medical Council, also certain topic categories, in place.

Some would point out the fact that there are other people in those categories. I'd call that circular evidence. Per WP:Categorization, people simply should not be put in non-people set categories.

HandsomeFella (talk) 09:06, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

You need to fix the categories, not the article. Wakers belongs in both Medical and Academic scandals cats. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 09:09, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Because? HandsomeFella (talk) 09:11, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

You're kidding, right? -Roxy, the dog. barcus 09:13, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

No. Please elaborate. Have you read what I wrote above, and have you read WP:Categorization? HandsomeFella (talk) 09:15, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

You have read the article, yes? -Roxy, the dog. barcus 09:18, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes. I know he's a scumbag and a fraudster. That is not a good reason for violating the WP guidelines. If other editors find it meaningful, we could create real people catagories that would satisfy you personally, such as "People involved in medical scandals" and "People involved in academic scandals" (alternatively "Academics involved in scandals"). Wait, he's already in on such category: "People associated with the MMR vaccine controversy".

Also, please elaborate how I "fix the categories".

If you cannot explain your point, why are you in this discussion?

HandsomeFella (talk) 09:36, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

You intimated above that he wasn't the scandal. He was the creator and perpetrator of the scandal and should remain in the cats concerned. I will ask for further opinion. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 09:44, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I said that people are not scandals. People can be fraudsters, and a whole lot of other things, but they cannot be scandals. HandsomeFella (talk) 10:59, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

This article is about the person and the scandal, though. And it is one of the biggest scandals in modern medicine, it has caused serious harm and killed hundreds of children. Guy (Help!) 11:02, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

It's about him and his role in the scandal (admittedly significant), the rest is in the MMR vaccine controversy article. It's still an incompatible category for people. The fact that it has caused serious harm and killed hundreds of children is irrelevant to the categorization question; it does not mean that we should break WP rules and guidelines. I'm sure you don't mean that we should allow unreliable sources just because he's a scumbag. HandsomeFella (talk) 11:14, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

• This isn't complicated. Categories exist for navigation purposes. People reading about scandals will want to read about Wakefield. If you're unwilling to put him in this category, then go make Category:People involved in scandals, fill it with all the subcats your heart desires, then stick Wakefield in the medical one. This isn't rocket surgery. Either drop the pedantry, or act on it. Don't keep using it as an excuse to to screw with the rest of the project outside of the walled garden of cat space. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:36, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I know it isn't complicated. I actually "acted on it", but was reverted, and told to start a discussion. I also suggested categorization similar to what you suggest. Have you read what I wrote above?

I just want to avoid edit wars and achieve a consensus.

HandsomeFella (talk) 12:56, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

From WP:SETCAT: Set categories are named after a class (usually in the plural). For example, Category:Cities in France contains articles whose subjects are cities in France. Category:Medical scandals in the United Kingdom is not in Category:Set categories; is it nonetheless a set category? If so then Wakefield is disqualified due to being a person rather than a scandal. Certes (talk) 13:16, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I've read the entire discussion. The problem here is that certain editors are being pedantic enough about categories to cause a disruption on this page, but not pedantic enough to fix the problem they've created for themselves. Create an appropriate category or stop causing problems here. This isn't difficult to understand. Right now, it looks like you're seeking out trouble, rather than seeking out solutions. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 13:31, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Right now, the article appears in both Category:People associated with the MMR vaccine controversy and its parent, Category:MMR vaccine controversy. Of the 19 people in the "People associated with ..." sub-category, Wakefield is the only one appearing in both the parent and child categories. Is the argument here that the other 18 have been mis-categorized and that all of them should also appear in the parent category? NewYorkActuary (talk) 14:15, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

No. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 14:19, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Then what's the argument for treating Wakefield differently than the other eighteen? NewYorkActuary (talk) 14:26, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Wakefield's the originator of the controversy, the deliberate inventor and tireless promotor of it. No-one else has that distinction. Also bear in mind that our articles aren't people themselves: our articles are about people. Every article is a topic, not a person, place, event, object or a non-topic form of abstraction. Arguing about whether some article is a person or controversy is ultimately futile because in the end, they're both topics. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:32, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

This happens to be the article which documents the scandal, just as much as MMR vaccine controversy. Both should be in the category. This scandal belongs to Wakefield. It could just as well be called the Wakefield MMR vaccine scandal. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 14:38, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Of course it shouldn't. Please re read WP:CAT WP:SUBCAT(Subsequent edit by Malerooster --Hob Gadling (talk) 22:42, 13 March 2018 (UTC)). MMR vaccine controversy is a parent category of People associated with the MMR vaccine controversy as pointed out above. I have read this talk page section twice and can't figure out why this is such a problem to folks. If this was tunnels or bridges in NYC would this be happening? --Malerooster (talk) 14:52, 13 March 2018 (UTC) ps, if you are still confused, please see this.pss, after reading a third time, this is a good faith disagreement and I do respect the editors who disagree with me, thank you. --Malerooster (talk) 14:58, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

If you can't understand my last comment, then ask specific questions about it and I will answer them. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:00, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

MPants at work, why would you include both categories when this does against WP:CAT? --Malerooster (talk) 15:08, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

That is explained in the same comment I just referenced. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:11, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok, so to be clear, if you think that the subject belongs in both categories, its ok to go against WP:CAT, fine. --Malerooster (talk) 15:14, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Thank you for inviting questions. Doesn't your "everything is a topic" theory effectively nullify the parent/child rules under WP:SUBCAT? If not, why not? NewYorkActuary (talk) 15:17, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Nope. The problem is that some people cling to the notion that categorization is always absolute. It's not. Any categorization system that uses a strict hierarchy is going to fail to properly categorize everything. When I use my cellphone to weigh down some papers on my porch table while it compiles some clisp I wrote on it, it should be categorized as a paperweight->tool->object, a smartphone->cellphone->phone->tool->object, a smartphone->minicomputer->computer->tool->object, a compiler->software->computer code, a computer->tool->object, a tool->object and an object, if I wanted to sort and organize the contents of my house. It should be removed from the compiler and paperweight categories when it is no longer performing those tasks. You should really get fewer OOP coders and a few more big data devs, simulation specialists working in cats. They'd explain to the rest of you how hierarchical categorization can be implements as keywords in order to better sort and organize data. (Since WP is intended to eventually produce static articles, the temporal considerations don't need much attention). ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 16:09, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

It's NOT against WP:CAT because this article is about the scandal. That it's also about a person doesn't disqualify it. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 15:18, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

But that wasn't the question I asked. I asked MPants whether their "everything is a topic" theory effectively nullifies the parent/child rules under WP:SUBCAT. NewYorkActuary (talk) 15:53, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Hi BullRangifer, I am really trying to get this. I hope we all agree that 99%? of the time, sub categories do not belong in their parent category?In other words, a page or category should rarely be placed in both a category and a subcategory or parent category (supercategory) of that category (unless the child category is non-diffusing – see below – or eponymous). The exception seems to be WP:DUPCAT. Is this what you are saying? Thank you, --Malerooster (talk) 15:54, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

No we dont agree that 99% of the time at all. 99% of the time we don't even bother to think about categories, until CPOT start fiddling about with a perfectly good article, and then this happens. Daft, isn't it? -Roxy, the dog. barcus 16:16, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Ok Roxy the dog, how about 98%? Whatever, it should be rarely as the guideline points out. Not sure what CPOT is. --Malerooster (talk) 18:04, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

• Categories exist for navigation purposes. They're there to help categorize stuff for the reader. Now, any reader trying to read about the MMR vaccine controversy is going to want to find all our content which is relevant to that. Sure, they'll expect Wakefield and others to show up in the subcat, and they'll not expect to learn about Wakefield's post-secondary education from a page in the main cat. But they're going to be surprised if they find that reading all the pages in Category:MMR vaccine controversy doesn't give them a complete picture of the MMR vaccine controversy, and that they had to go through at least one page in the subcat to learn more details. The Wakefield article -being about a BLP so central to the controversy- has details which belong here but which also are highly important to the controversy itself.

I don't know what group of editors got together and decided that cats needed to be strictly hierarchical, but that group of editors made a decision that flies in the face of every bit of epistemology concerning categorization. And as we all know, any rule that prevents us from improving the project can and will get ignored.

Finally, as has been pointed out more than once. You've shown up here to make a change. That change immediately caused a furor. That change does not measurably improve this article, and only arguably helps improve the project in general (and even then, only because of the way certain editors -not a majority- feel about certain subjects). Multiple editors are thus required to come here and explain epistemology to multiple other editors whose primary focus is on epistemological constructs used by this project, in order to avoid this article being damaged again (and possibly further). This should have been a quick one, two, three: the cat gets removed, the cat gets put back, a brief explanation given, and we're done. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 17:32, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

May I recommend reading the following excerpt from the Hitchhiker's guide to Wikipedia in the original Peter Jones radio series voice of the guide ... "In other words, a page or category should rarely be placed in both a category and a subcategory or parent category (supercategory) of that category (unless the child category is non-diffusing – see below – or eponymous)."

...also, Category Police On Tour. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 16:51, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

But that was the point of my original question here -- if the category is regarded as non-diffusing with respect to "People associated with ...", then why don't the other eighteen names appear in the category? (At which point, of course, you might as well just get rid of the sub-category). But maybe there's a compromise here:

Compromise proposal: Remove the instant article from Category:MMR vaccine controversy (and leave it in the "People ..." sub-category), but also replace the opening hatnote with a sentence such as This category includes articles that address the MMR vaccine controversy associated with the work of Andrew Wakefield.

Would this be an acceptable compromise? NewYorkActuary (talk) 17:39, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Except for the bit that says "Remove the instant article from Category:MMR vaccine controversy" I support the above proposal. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 18:00, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you for the prompt response. Applying the rules of WP:SUBCAT in this fashion is an essential element of the compromise proposal. I take it, then, that you reject the compromise offer. But let's see what other editors have to say about it. NewYorkActuary (talk) 18:29, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I reject the compromise proposal because there is no consensus for a change, and therefore no need for a proposal of any kind, as a compromise isn't really needed. See what I mean? -Roxy, the dog. barcus 19:12, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I reject it, as well, for the reasons I described in detail above. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:15, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Thank you both for your prompt responses. I was hoping to resolve this without the need for a 30-day-long Request for Comments, but your unequivocal responses make that seem unlikely. Within the next day or so, I'll initiate that RfC. Thanks again for your prompt responses. NewYorkActuary (talk) 02:17, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

I think that WP:SUBCAT should apply here, and the article should be in Category:People associated with the MMR vaccine controversy and not the parent Category:MMR vaccine controversy. This article is about the person - there is a separate article about the MMR vaccine controversy. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:01, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to ask any Category Police hanging around, if Wakers didn't exist, would Category:MMR vaccine controversy exist? The man is the Category. -Roxy, the dog. barcus 10:29, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

if Wakers didn't exist, would Category:MMR vaccine controversy exist? — Yes. There are 16 other pages directly in that category, and 18 other pages in the sub-Category:People associated with the MMR vaccine controversy.

I disagree that "the man is the category", because:

• There is no Category:Andrew Wakefield.

(Possibly you meant "the man is the controversy"?)

• There are two separate articles: MMR vaccine controversy and Andrew Wakefield. If "the man is the controversy", there would only be a single article.
• The Andrew Wakefield article includes a MMR controversy section, but that section is only part of the article. Andrew Wakefield is apparently more than just the controversy.
• There are 18 other people associated with the MMR vaccine controversy, so the conversy is apparently more than just Wakefield.

Mitch Ames (talk) 14:19, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Is it just me? -Roxy, the dog. barcus 15:53, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Tweaking the lede - why was Wakefield struck off

There seems to be a bit of back and forth about the sentence in the lede describing why Wakefield was struck off the medical register. The two competing wordings are (citations omitted, but identical between the two versions; differences bolded)

Andrew Jeremy Wakefield (born 1957) is a disgraced British former gastroenterologist and medical researcher who was struck off the UK medical register for unethical behaviour and other misconduct surrounding his fraudulent 1998 research paper supporting the now-discredited claim that there was a link between the administration of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine, and the appearance of autism and bowel disease.

and

Andrew Jeremy Wakefield (born 1957) is a disgraced British former gastroenterologist and medical researcher who was struck off the UK medical register for his fraudulent 1998 research paper and other misconduct in support of the now-discredited claim that there was a link between the administration of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine, and the appearance of autism and bowel disease.

• From the lede: "On 28 January 2010, a five-member statutory tribunal of the GMC found three dozen charges proved, including four counts of dishonesty and 12 counts involving the abuse of developmentally challenged children." Enough said. Guy (Help!) 20:05, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm inclined to prefer the former, as it's strictly more accurate. Wakefield was struck off for his unethical behavior (some of which was in service of his paper, among other aims), rather than the paper itself. That is to say, it was Wakefield's actions which drew sanctions, rather than the product of those actions. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 14:24, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I agree. This is also a MEDRS issue as the credibility of Wakefield speaks directly to medical health claims. We should be very clear whenever we document anything associated with the MMR vaccine controversy that Wakefield is both unethical and a fraud, and that his claims about the MMR vaccine are categorically false, because that is the unchallenged consensus of the most reliable sources, and because people who try to use WP to research whether or not to vaccinate their children need to know this stuff, and it needs to be unambiguous. This is not activism, this is the absolving ourselves of liability in the wrongful deaths of children. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 14:29, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Off topic to start and just kept going and going and going Jytdog (talk) 19:35, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Mr. Pants please don't write stuff like "absolving ourselves of liability in the wrongful deaths of children". There is a disclaimer at the bottom of every page which contains a specific statement about medical content, and in any case it almost never necessary to talk about real world legal stuff like "liability". What matters is what is best supported by the best refs, giving appropriate WEIGHT etc; our internal policies and guidelines. Jytdog (talk) 14:40, 13 March 2018 (UTC) it almost never necessary to talk about real world legal stuff like "liability" I have bolded the relevant word. If you convey to someone the notion that consuming 3 grams of arsenic will improve their complexion and whiten their smile, there is no disclaimer in the world that will protect you from the ensuing wrongful death lawsuit. It is, in fact, a well-established legal fact that disclaiming yourself as no expert is not a defense when you continue to portray yourself as an expert. This is one of the reasons for the additional MEDRS requirements, as you well know. This is a topic in which deaths have occurred, due entirely to the spread of misinformation. Wikipedia is a purveyor of information. It would be profoundly unwise to treat it the same way we treat UFO conspiracy theories, for example. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 20:47, 13 March 2018 (UTC) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants, you are coming very close to a Wikipedia:No legal threats violation. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:12, 14 March 2018 (UTC) See my response to Jytdog, below. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:38, 14 March 2018 (UTC) Let's not get all underwear-bunched about this. MPants the whole point of NLT is to generally keep everybody away from that whole mindset, which is what people reach for when things get passionate. It is enough to say "this is a big deal with real world consequences for people" (which is what you mean, i think) without waving around Big Legal Junk which has really nothing to do with how we intrinsically make decisions here. That is all i meant. I will not respond further as this is all aside-ness. Jytdog (talk) 03:54, 14 March 2018 (UTC) There's nothing remotely threatening about what I've said, and I think both of you need to take another read of WP:NLT before you mention it again. NLT explicitly and intentionally applies to people threatening to take legal action. In order to read a threat into my comments, you would have to presume that I'd decided not to vaccinate my children because (at least in part) the WP articles on the MMR controversy weren't clear enough that the autism link is bullshit. You might recognize that, once spelled out, as ridiculous, given my editing history. If you feel threatened by reading it, then you've thoroughly and grossly misread it. And I'm quite dispassionate right now. This is just me pointing out a legal reality for the WMF, not myself, and using it to illustrate the reason for one of our policies and to reinforce the reasons for following that and other policies. If that doesn't make sense, then here's the simple version: I'm explaining why "good prose" or "NPOV" "BLPVIO" aren't good arguments in this situation, because they're the go-to arguments for editors making edits like the one that was reverted. If you disagree, then I don't quite know what to tell you. This is the exact same reason why WP:MEDRS exists, and you presumably don't disagree with that. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 12:38, 14 March 2018 (UTC) ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants, you say "I think both of you need to take another read of WP:NLT before you mention it again. NLT explicitly and intentionally applies to people threatening to take legal action." But Wikipedia:No legal threats#Perceived legal threats says: "It is important to refrain from making comments that others may reasonably understand as a legal threat. For example, if you repeatedly assert that another editor's comments are 'defamatory' or 'libelous,' that editor might interpret this as a threat to sue, even if that is not your intention. To avoid misunderstandings, use less charged wording, such as 'that statement about me is false and damaging, and I ask that it be corrected.' Rather than immediately blocking users who post apparent threats, administrators should first seek to clarify the user's intention, if there is any doubt." Could you please reconcile what you claim the policy says (only explicit and intentional legal threats are forbidden) with what the policy actually says (implied and unintentional legal threats are also forbidden)? --Guy Macon (talk) 14:30, 14 March 2018 (UTC) I don't understand why you're quoting a subsection that only applies to this discussion if one makes some -frankly- incredibly ignorant presuppositions about me and reads a great deal into my comments which is not explicitly stated within them. Instead, you should be reading the very first sentence of the policy, which states the policy and defines a legal threat in two different, compatible ways (which quite obviously don't apply to anything I said): "Do not make legal threats on Wikipedia. A legal threat, in this context, is a threat to engage in an external (real life) legal or other governmental process that would target other editors." Merely discussing a legal situation is not a legal threat, nor is acknowledging that one WP policy is based in part on legal considerations (in fact, there are a number of such policies, see Category:Wikipedia legal policies) and using that fact to inform an argument over article content as it relates to policy a legal threat. As I previously pointed out, there is no threat contained in my comments, and the only way to read a threat into it would be to presume some rather extraordinary circumstances in my life that, themselves would require me to hold ideas which run counter to those ideals glimpsed in my editing history, and stated explicitly by me multiple times, and which would require me to at least assert that a number of WP articles contained content and implications which they demonstrably don't; something which I have demonstrably never done. To be perfectly clear, I'm asserting without qualification that anyone reading a legal threat into what I said is suffering from a truly bizarre miscomprehension of what I said and willfully ignoring the fact that I've now explicitly stated three times (including this comment) that it's not a legal threat. Furthermore, such an editor is wasting time continuing to bicker about their misunderstanding of my point and the nuances of WP:NLT instead of engaging productively elsewhere on the project, or even on this very article. I respect you a lot, Guy (and Jytdog as well), but your argument here is almost incomprehensibly misguided. I cannot, for the life of me, understand how any reasonable person could make the assumptions and assertions you have made, despite operating myself under the well-evidenced assumption that you are a reasonable person. I can tell you now that there is nothing to gain from me from continuing this line of accusation, and I would venture to guess that you won't get anywhere at one of the drama boards with it, due to the factors I've described above. Pursuing it further is nothing less than a waste of everyone's time, and I'll not be assisting such a waste by responding. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 15:53, 14 March 2018 (UTC) The problem is that what you say are "the assumptions and assertions [I] have made" are actually only the assumptions and assertions you have think I have made. I (and I am not alone) think that you made a comment that others may reasonably understand as a legal threat, even if that is not your intention. Repeatedly stating that it was is not your intention is 100% true but irrelevant. The policy says don't made a comment that others may reasonably understand as a legal threat, even if that was not your intention. Repeatedly stating that you do not understand the statement as being a legal threat is also 100% true but irrelevant. The policy says don't made a comment that others may reasonably understand as a legal threat, not that you understand as a legal threat. Repeatedly stating that in your opinion the two editors who have asked you not to make such statements are not being reasonable isn't helpful. I believe that I am being reasonable. Get one or two other people besides the person who made the statement in question to agree that I am not being reasonable and I will consider the possibility. I would strongly suggest that you not make statements like "this is the absolving ourselves of liability in the wrongful deaths of children" or "If you convey to someone the notion that consuming 3 grams of arsenic will improve their complexion and whiten their smile, there is no disclaimer in the world that will protect you from the ensuing wrongful death lawsuit" simply because of how such statements are interpreted by other editors. Those appear to be WP:NLT violations to me and to at least one other editor. Is doesn't matter whether you think that those were legal threats. It is an established fact that at least some other editors think that those were legal threats, and nobody has come forward agreeing that those editors are all, in your words. "incomprehensibly misguided". There comes a time when a person should comply with a reasonable request even if they disagree. You can make your point without using terms like "liability in the wrongful deaths of children" or "wrongful death lawsuit". I am in basic agreement with your underlying point, just not with the legal threats you are using to make that point. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:14, 14 March 2018 (UTC) I dearly hope you don't expect me to actually read and respond to the bulk of this. As for reasonable requests (the one part that I noticed), I would agree; When a person is asked to cease making disruptive accusations that fly in the face of logic, common sense and basic civility, they should comply. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 19:25, 14 March 2018 (UTC) OMG! Is this really still dragging out and distracting? The key word here is "reasonably". No, it is NOT reasonable to make such an assumption about Mpants's words. SMH. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 19:55, 14 March 2018 (UTC) Unwatching this page. I see zero sense in continuing to discuss such a minor issue. I have expressed my opinion, and been told that it was not read. I would hope that we can put this behind us and not have it interfere with what has so far been a spirit of mutual respect and collaboration. --Guy Macon (talk) 23:03, 14 March 2018 (UTC) ` Not that comment I read. And agree with, wholeheartedly. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants Tell me all about it. 23:05, 14 March 2018 (UTC) For what it's worth, I read ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants's original post (the one in question here) and didn't see any thing even close to a reasonably construed legal threat. ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants's concerns were clearly that the WikiMedia Foundation would be morally and legally liable if due diligence were not taken to document the fraudulent nature of Wakefield's purported link between the MMR vaccine and autism. However, in a similar instance where I thought a wikipedia article was close to breaking US Federal law on publication of details helpful to the illegal fabrication of weapons of mass destruction (I am not now specifying which article on purpose), I asked an admin to delete the text in question from the article history to keep dangerous information out of the wrong hands. The admin consulted colleagues and eventually put me in touch with an attorney with the Wikimedia Foundation. The attorney explained the WMF's position, and we worked out a fix for the problem. I'd advise anyone concerned about legal or moral liability for harm arising from the content of one of our articles to make an admin aware of the situation and let the admins handle the issue. But that's tangential to the issue of making legal threats, which I don't see happening in ᛗᛁᛟᛚᚾᛁᚱPants's case. loupgarous (talk) 19:23, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Request for Comments regarding categorization of this article

Should this biographical article be listed under both Category:MMR vaccine controversy and Category:People associated with the MMR vaccine controversy? NewYorkActuary (talk) 19:18, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Survey

• No, the rules of WP:SUBCAT call for listing the article only in the more-specific category (i.e., the "People associated with ..." category) and not in the parent category. NewYorkActuary (talk) 19:18, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
• No - Not both. Per WP:SUBCAT. Blueboar (talk) 20:23, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
• No per SUBCAT. If there wasn't a clear rule on this then we'd have continual time-wasting debates about which articles "deserve"/"need" to also be in the parent category. DexDor ^(talk) 21:06, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
• No: the article should be categorised as low down in the category hierarchy as possible, without duplication in parent categories unless someone explains why WP:SUBCAT doesn't apply here. Certes (talk) 21:56, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
• No. There are exceptions to WP:SUBCAT but this isn't one of them. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:59, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
• No, per WP:SUBCAT: an article should be categorised as low down in the category hierarchy as possible, without duplication in parent categories above it. ... a page ... should rarely be placed in both a category and a subcategory or parent category... A reader browsing Category:MMR vaccine controversy looking for Wakefield could quite reasonably be expected to look in the sub-Category:People associated with the MMR vaccine controversy. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:00, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
• No Not in both. (invited by the bot) North8000 (talk) 12:38, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
• No Not in both. What useful purpose would it serve?Pincrete (talk) 18:01, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
• No - Per SUBCAT. Reasons given in the 2 sections above, although good faith, don't over ride this. --Malerooster (talk) 00:45, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

The word Disgraced is unprofessional

I stand by my argument that the word [disgraced] is not professional, unecessary and in fact is attempting to coerce the reader into a biased opinion.

In addition, the opening paragraph is flawed grammar, an extremely long sentence with no punctuation and double description of the legal reasons he was struck off. Its also historically out of date as he is currently active.

The infamy and notoriety Wakefield courts and exploits is actually inflamed by the obviously emotive anti Wakefield tone of the author. Wikipedia is supposed to be dispassionate and fact based. Words matter!

I propose that my edit following is exactly that dispassionate, non biased and factual. My reasoning is that using Plain English (non medical or abbreviated, legal mumbo jumbo or psychobabble) is necessary to convey a balanced representation of a person. Using obviously biased and emotively loaded descriptive words that encourage propaganda or counter propaganda such as; disgraced, notorious, infamous, despised, reviled, revered, loved ... encourage the reader to take one critical stance or another rather than allowing them to assess and make up their own minds. Facts not coercement are paramount to maintain truthful statements in encyclopedic statements.

A case in point. I would argue that even the most notorious person in recent history Adolf Hitler has no coercing description such as reviled or in fact any leading description in its Wikipedia entry, therefore the author of Andrew Wakefield's entry is showing that Wikipedia views Andrew Wakefield as more notorious than Adolf Hitler?. I doubt anyone could argue that this is in any way appropriate or helpful in the course of historical truth telling.

Also Mr Wakefield is currently active in fighting his cause. Whether or not this deserves praise or condemnation is completely irrelevant. It is what the reader needs to know about.

I propose the following edit to replace the existing entry:

[Andrew Jeremy Wakefield (born 1957)[1][2] is an English documentary filmmaker, activist, author and public speaker/educator. Wakefield is a former gastroenterologist and medical researcher who was struck off the UK medical register for serious professional misconduct in 2010. The General Medical Council ruled that the co written Lancet research papers in 1998 linking the MMR vaccine (combined measles, mumps and rubella) to inflammatory bowell disease and Autism were fraudulent. [3][4][5][6][7] ]

Adding:

[Despite worldwide professional condemnation for being anti-vaccine, Andrew Wakefield has continued to publicly defy his critics during the subsequent 20 years since the Lancet papers were published. He repeatedly publicly stands by the research and maintains his stance that he is not anti vaccine but pro safe vaccine. ]

The above ammended from the existing Wikipedia entry:

[Andrew Jeremy Wakefield (born 1957)[1][2] is a disgraced British former gastroenterologist and medical researcher who was struck offthe UK medical register for unethical behaviour and other misconduct surrounding his fraudulent 1998 research paper supporting the now-discredited claim that there was a link between the administration of the measles, mumps and rubella (MMR) vaccine, and the appearance of autism and bowel disease.[3][4][5][6][7] ]

Davijee (talk) 19:07, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Who is "the author" you keep referring to? -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 21:45, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

I’m ignoring the wall of text above. Disgraced is a bad word because it has a vague possibility of indicating his mental state (shame). This is not factual. We do not have s reference that he feels shame. Instead, I recommend using the word “discredited”. The lede could use a good copy editing. Subject to further comments or edits, I may straighten it out next time I look.Jehochman ^Talk 01:16, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

That might work. We do use it in that same sentence, but about his claim. Maybe we can find some other good synonyms so we don't use the same word. -- BullRangifer (talk) PingMe 05:25, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Why use any word? That first sentence already has the words/phrases "struck off the UK medical register", "unethical behaviour", "other misconduct", "fraudulent", and "now-discredited". Does we really need to add an editorialising adjective? NewYorkActuary (talk) 16:18, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Disgraced is how the reliable sources describe him. The Guardian: [4]. The Independent: [5]. The Times: [6]. The Daily Telegraph: [7]. Channel 4: [8]. Even that wretched hive of scum and quackery the Daily Mail: [9]. It appears t be pretty much the most common adjective used in describing him these days. Guy (Help!) 21:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

In answer to common adjectives comment, Wikipedia was set up by pioneers not sheep. Davijee (talk) 00:44, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

disbarred is a more appropriate matter of fact replacement word for disgraced. It means expelled. Disgraced does not mean licence revoked. It means shamed as mentioned in the thread. Wakefield is shameless. Davijee (talk) 01:13, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Incorrect. Disbarment only happens to lawyers. Guy (Help!) 07:57, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Expelled, struck off, licence revoked... any more anyone? Davijee (talk) 08:56, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

How about "discredited", as the reliable independent sources have it? That works for me. Two of the three you propose, and the fourth above, are incorrect, so I say we stick with the sources here. Guy (Help!) 09:15, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Agreed "Discredited" is appropriate Davijee (talk) 10:16, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Disagree: Removed from the UK General Medical Council register of medical practitioners would be better and more accurate. Aspro (talk) 13:03, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm with Guy here, stick to the sources (and common usage) which say "disgraced." My own alternative proposal would be "ethically challenged" (for wikipedia) or "ethical ratbag" (roxypedia) -Roxy, the dog. barcus 14:53, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

The GMC remit is to consider the conduct of medical practitioners, not to judge medical science. So they can not discredit anybody in this regard. It was journalists that opted to used this word. Aspro (talk) 15:12, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

I refer the hon. gentleman to my earlier reply. There are thousands of references describing Wakefield as disgraced. The GMC found the gross ethical failings, the Lancet checked the science and found it bogus, and mainstream media sources apply the label "disgraced" because of how Wakefield handled the evidence of his fraud and ethical violations - i.e. he doubled down. Guy (Help!) 09:21, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

How about “quack”, scammer or pseudoscientist? Jehochman ^Talk 06:33, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

IMO the whole things is getting lost in the agony of these edits. Seems to me that it is not only his research that has been discredited. The man himself has been disgraced and discredited at a very personal level. There are issues of personal honesty, of the world's moral condemnation, his treatment of children. I think somebody should put it back the way it was. Bluehotel (talk) 07:25, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Absolutely correct, and I just made that edit. It absolutely is not just his work that is discredited. He is now a professional liar - he literally makes his living peddling known falsehoods for money. I spent some time surveying the search results on this. The consensus among sources appears to be that Wakefield is disgraced, and his work is discredited. This article is about Wakefield, so it looks very much as if we should go with disgraced. Obviously WP:BLP applies, but that does not require us to conceal a consensus view on someone: we don't have to pretend that a fraud is anything but a fraud. If he had disappeared quietly after he was struck off then the apologists above might have a point, but he didn't. He has now made two movies pretending that he was right and the rest of the world is wrong, he continues to peddle "the most damaging medical hoax of the last 100 years", and he is a continuing danger to public health, actively lending credibility to wholly bogus claims of vaccine harm, "big pharma" suppression and the like. This promotion of fraudulent and objectively dangerous claims, which is now his principal source of income (and quite a nice income as well, looking at the facts), is why people describe him as "disgraced". Faced with proof that his work was fraudulent and unethical, he has doubled down.

Compare this with another notorious British person, John Profumo. He was disgraced in public life, he devoted the rest of his days to charitable work and when he died nobody had a bad word to say about him. The obituaries spoke of a lamentable lapse of judgment, followed by humble atonement. The obituaries for Wakefield will not, I think, be as kind - at least not the ones in the reality-based press. Guy (Help!) 08:24, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

• The GMC had one hand tied behind their backs at the time because they were relying on what a 'single' journalist was saying. That is why their deliberations went on for so long – the longest in the history of the GMC. They were trying to square the circle upon false premise's. Initially, when the GMC finally published their pontifications, some medical journals went into panic-mode and back-peddled. This article just reiterates the former accusations and leaves out later clarifications of where the journalist was confabulating – as journalists often do. Aspro (talk) 10:59, 3 April 2018 (UTC)