User talk:Rjensen

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Clarification

Hi there, quick question. I ran across an odd sentence in Great Depression in the United States, dug back in the edits, and found you were its author. Would you mind taking a look at the paragraph beginning with "The New Deal was, and still is, sharply debated"? The "dangerous man" phrasing is throwing me... is it meant to be "men" or "a man?" If the latter, is the man Roosevelt? If you could clarify, that would be great. Thank you! Jessicapierce (talk) 07:15, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

you have a sharp eye! It should be "a dangerous man" (ie FDR) and I fixed it. Rjensen (talk) 12:47, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

Your definition of fasicm being on the far-right is incorrect. Fasicm is actually a left ideal. Look up Giovanni Gentile; the originator of this ideal. His history and ideals are toward socialism. His contemporaries also dealt with Marxism and socialism.

Respectfully submitted, Chris — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1011:B026:3236:2D94:7F2:A31F:3DDC (talk) 18:29, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

One more: the originator of fascicm, Giovanni Gentile, had ties - namely, he had written a book - with Benito Mussolini: The Doctrine of Fascism. Ironically, Wikipedia itself states that Mussoluni moved to the right; however, reading further into this man reflects his heavy socialist leanings.

Again, respectfully submitted — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1011:B026:3236:2D94:7F2:A31F:3DDC (talk) 18:57, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

you need to cite a reliable secondary source. Rjensen (talk) 20:17, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

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WWII

FYI Talk pages discussions at World War Two have re-opened. You contributed relatively recently, so please chime in. -Chumchum7 (talk) 16:04, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

yes I just did so Rjensen (talk) 17:25, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

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Scandal categorization

Hello.

Are you familiar with WP:Categorization (especially about set categories) and WP:INCOMPATIBLE?

The Watergate scandal was a scandal, but Richard Nixon was a person.

The Dreyfuss affair was a scandal, but Alfred Dreyfuss was a person.

If there is a notable scandal, then there should be an article about the scandal itself, such as the Jack Abramoff scandals. People involved the scandal could be categorized as "People associated with ...", such as in Category:People associated with the Jack Abramoff scandals.

If there is not enough material to create an article on the scandal, then create a properly named redirect – e.g. Hugh Dalton budget-leaking scandal – and place it in the appropriate categories, such as indicated in WP:INCOMPATIBLE.

But people cannot be categorized as scandals.

Regards

HandsomeFella (talk) 16:14, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

better quote the exact rule you are using. Rjensen (talk) 16:20, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Allright, I'll do the reading for you. Please see Wikipedia:Categorization#Category tree organization:

• Set categories are named after a class (usually in the plural). For example, Category:Cities in France contains articles whose subjects are cities in France.

and WP:INCOMPATIBLE:

• 24 Heures is a French-language newspaper in Montreal, but is covered in the article on its English-language sister publications 24 Hours. However, the French-language newspaper and Montreal newspaper categories must be placed on the redirect, as 24 Hours is not the name of a French-language newspaper published in Montreal, while 24 Heures is. Those categories should contain the correct name of the Montreal publication.

HandsomeFella (talk) 16:32, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Well no -- those quotes say zip about personal names. Actual practice over the years is personal names are very common in scandal categories--dozens of editors disagree with you and have added names to "Category:Academic scandals", Category:Journalistic scandals, Category:religious scandals, Category:sex scandals and so on. Please look and see for yourself. Rjensen (talk) 16:40, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

Those rules are examples, not an exhaustive list. You know how the concept of examples work, right? You can't name every single area where the rules apply.

Yes, editors occasionally add people articles to various scandal categories, that does not make it correct. That's circular reasoning (linking for your convenience, in case you want to read the article yourself).

HandsomeFella (talk) 16:46, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

You invented a rule "But people cannot be categorized as scandals. " (above) that is not useful to readers, not useful to editors, and is ignored by many editors. If readers want to think about scandals, I would say they will not be well served by deletion of (one of) the most famous scandal in British history about a chancellor of the exchequer. Your rule is found nowhere in Wikipedia's vast compendium of rules. Rjensen (talk) 17:26, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

I have not invented any rule. The rule is set out in WP:Categorization, the bit about set categories, and it's far from useless. In short, for an article to be categorized in Category:Foos, it has to be about a foo. I.e. for an article to be categorized as a scandal, it has to be about a scandal. That's how it works. Persons are not scandals. Scandals are events, occurrences – not a physical object. A person is very much physical. You cannot say that Hugh Dalton was a scandal. Him leaking the budget was.

You edited the article, adding "This was a scandal ... ". I don't dispute that, but let me just point out that you didn't write "He was a scandal".

I assume that you're not contemplating adding Category:Political scandals in the United States to Richard Nixon or Category:Political scandals in France to Alfred Dreyfuss. Right? Then why adding Category:Political scandals in the United Kingdom to Hugh Dalton?

I have now created a redirect – just like what WP:INCOMPATIBLE recommends – and put that in the appropriate categories, so people searching for them via the category system will find it. I named it as I proposed above, and I have also added wiki-links to it here (see above). You're welcome to check it out, adding more categories, and/or discuss the naming.

Concluding, let me just add the fact that for every scandal, there are several, or even many, people involved – some as "perpetrators" and some as "victims". Much of that categorization would also be very subjective. If we were to categorize all those people as scandals, then those categories would be so crowded with people, that we would be looking for scandal categories proper – but hey, wait, we already have that ... Adding to the logic of what I have said above, this reason alone speaks against. Not that this is the main point, but still.

Cheers.

HandsomeFella (talk) 21:43, 17 December 2017 (UTC)

To be categorized under scandal, an article has to include a scandal. That seems sensible, otherwise we lose most of the scandals in history. I agree you can add a redirect--in the last couple hundred cases you added nothing and instead deleted information. Rjensen (talk) 06:49, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

Please don't assume that the reason why I was removing data from partial source was due to personal reasons.

I would just as vigorously object and remove any citation of, for example, Bin Laden as an authority on US foreign policy as I will remove the two slanted anti-Arab historians (one of whom is openly so) from the Runciman page.

It's really very simple, I'm sure you would also object to the inclusion of Bin Laden's views on US/western foreign policy as a legitimate source, for example, and yet you are fighting to keep information from a historian who casts Arabs in a poor light due to sympathies with Israeli foreign policy.

It's a little bizzare in my mind that this is being done, and my question is more directly, are you saying a poor source that can be cited must be included regardless of it's factual accuracy or the very high likelihood of implicit bias. That's a real 'floodgate' moment if the answer is yes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sscloud (talk • contribs) 14:54, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

You're last statement is in opposition to the Wiki rules on bias: please read WP:Biased--it states: Wikipedia articles are required to present a neutral point of view. However, reliable sources are not required to be neutral, unbiased, or objective. Sometimes non-neutral sources are the best possible sources for supporting information about the different viewpoints held on a subject. As for a "poor" source, I'm not sure what you refer to, or how you happen to make that judgment. The point here is to avoid bias by WP editors (like you and me) but NOT EXCLUDE bias in the reliable secondary sources. [copy to RUNCIMAN talk page Talk:Steven Runciman Rjensen (talk) 15:41, 18 December 2017 (UTC)

About word usage

At Diplomatic history of World War I - however, using "infected" for an idea (an not merely an emotion) does let the reader make a link between the idea of communism and that of disease (since infected is usually more closely associated with it's usage relative to diseases than to this more imaginative usage - Merriam-Webster lists the meaning you were referring to (3b) together with "contaminate, corrupt" (meaning 3a) (according to the online version at least) 135.23.202.24 (talk) 02:58, 19 December 2017 (UTC) The usage of "infected" could also fall under WP:IDIOM or, stretching it a bit to include usage of synonyms for other words, WP:SAY. 135.23.202.24 (talk) 03:10, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

An infectious disease is one that spreads from person to person by contact--unlike cancer, say, which is caused by environmental conditions. so that is exactly the idea to be conveyed. The Merriam Webster exemplar shows it is not necessarily negative. Rjensen (talk) 09:14, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I wasn't arguing that it is necessarily negative. I was arguing that in this context (with a political idea), the language might be inappropriate since it subconsciously establishes a link in the reader's mind between communism and infection/disease. Also, per WP:SAY, don't use synonyms when it's unnecessary or, in this case, has an implicit POV, even if a purely semantic analysis reveals the usage is correct (much like saying "claimed", "admitted", ...). 135.23.202.24 (talk) 13:23, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

let people worry about their own subconscious fears--you asked for dictionary approval and you have it now. It's common political terminology around the world eg 1) "Populated mainly by predominantly Gaelic-speaking clansmen, who were still used to a life within a social structure where the authority of the chief was not questioned, the Highlands were believed to be far less likely to become infected with radicalism than most other parts of Scotland. " [Scotland and the French Revolutionary War, 1792-1802 (2015) - Page 73]; 2) "Her [Spain's] colonies on our continent, already infected with radicalism, and endangered by the democracy propagated from our shores, threaten every day to fall from her, are a burden rather than a benefit, and cost her much more than ...." [Speech ... on the treaty for the annexation of Texas, 1844]; 3) "The Zanzibar society seems to belong to the category of highly politicised societies. There are very few people, if any, who might be labelled as politically indifferent. Almost everybody is infected with politics." (2001); 4) Stalin, 1937: "Here you have a glaring example of how easily and “simply” some of our inexperienced comrades become infected with political blindness as a result of having their heads turned by economic successes. Such are the dangers associated with successes, with achievements. Such are the reasons why our Party comrades, elated with economic successes, have forgotten about facts of an international and internal character which are of essential importance for the Soviet Union...." ; 5) Ricardo (England) 1817 " to confound all intellectual distinction; to busy the mind continually in supplying the body's wants; until at last all classes should be infected with the plague of universal poverty.”; 6) Michael Oakeshott, (England, 1962) "And only a society already infected with Rationalism will the conversion of the traditional resources of resistance to the tyranny of Rationalism into a self conscious ideology be considered a strengthening of those resources.” etc etc Rjensen (talk) 13:44, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

And what do all these have in common? They're criticizing whatever the subject matter is: "our inexperienced comrades become infected with political blindness" "infected with the plague of universal poverty." It being common terminology doesn't making it right, see ad populum. 135.23.202.24 (talk) 13:46, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

add David Hume 1767: " Fears, jealousies, and antipathies were every day multiplying in parliament: And though the people were strongly infected with the same prejudices, the king hoped, that, by dissolving the present cabals, a set of men might be chosen more moderate in their pursuits, and less tainted with the virulence of faction." Yes -- use by the reliable sources makes it "right" for Wikipedia. This encyclopedia summarizes the RS and does not introduce new ideas, -- and it downplays the personal views of its editors. "all these have in common?" -- wrong: it is a good think in Zanzibar (" There are very few people, if any, who might be labelled as politically indifferent. Almost everybody is infected with politics.") and a good thing in Spain's colonies, infected by American ideas about democracy. Rjensen (talk) 14:03, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

You can't see the forest for the trees. Ok, sorry I missed that one, you still haven't addressed my argument. It's not because most sources use infected that the usage is correct and neutral. In fact, some sources you link do not seem to be neutral at all. Speech ... on the treaty for the annexation of Texas, ; Stalin, 1937 ; WP policy also appears to be consistent with not always using the same terminology as sources, for example WP:SURVIVEDBY. and the Spain example doesn't seem positive, at least in the little context that is given here - the author links "infected with radicalism" with "threaten to fall from her", which from at least a Spanish POV would be a bad thing... 135.23.202.24 (talk) 14:08, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

re Spain--the American speaker was VERY happy that American radicalism & democracy was undermining the Spanish empire. what is your current argument? "infected" in politics means an idea moving from person to person--there is indeed a sense that it is "radical" in the sense of a threat to the political status quo -- but that is what the article says was happening. the passage you objected to = " When Russia left the war in 1917 these [Russian] prisoners returned home [to Russia] and many carried back support for revolutionary ideas that quickly infected their comrades." Rjensen (talk) 15:34, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Except I wasn't talking about the US POV. I didn't object to the whole passage. I just suggested replacing "quickly infected" with "were quickly shared with". This is in line with WP:SAY which says that synonyms should be avoided if it can bring undue POV in an article. I am not saying we should debate the merits of communism or it's failed implementations. Only that we should avoid using "infected" in the same way it is used in political speech, because Wiki isn't political speech... 135.23.202.24 (talk) 15:50, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

"shared with" is too tame and nonpolitical (people share jokes. Here we mean trying to get people to overthrow the government.). Article is talking about Germany sending prisoners to Russia knowing the would spread a radical threat to Tsars. -- that is politics. as for WP:SAY -- ??? what section or rule do you refer to? Rjensen (talk) 16:03, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

I'm interpreting the spirit of the rule, which is "do not use needlessly loaded terms when simpler, neutral, apolitical expressions can be used". The policy explicitly cites the verb say because it's the most common form (after all, people talk a lot and say a lot of things). As for "too tame" - maybe "which quickly circulated among their comrades."? Webster gives 'to become well-known or widespread - rumors circulated through the town' 135.23.202.24 (talk) 16:18, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

Or maybe "propagated"? This also gives the impression of radical (common roots with "propaganda") but avoids linking with disease as in the infected case - while propaganda is a more appropriate link since it is political speech.135.23.202.24 (talk) 16:31, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

It's not loaded. everyone agrees on what Germany was trying to do-- upset the status quo. Other suggestions fail to make it clear what was happening. Rjensen (talk) 17:31, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

The use of the term "infected" is not used in the article to describe the action of the German decision-makers. It is used to describe the revolutionary ideas (i.e. communism), which "infected" the Russians. The term "infected" is used to describe the propagation of communism, not the intent of the German decision-makers who caused this. Therefore, we shouldn't make a judgement on communism or it's (failed) implementations, or even those behind it. We should judge whether using "infected" to describe a political idea is neutral. I think it isn't and we should use other verbs which do not bring a link with disease, such as "propagated" or "circulated". 135.23.202.24 (talk) 21:52, 19 December 2017 (UTC)

the intent of the Germans was to spread anti-govt sentiments in Russia thru the released prisoners. A POV edit means that reliable sources disagree--and there is zero evidence of any such disagreement--you have not cited any RS at all. Rjensen (talk) 08:15, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

I just said that we shouldn't give a darn about the intent of the Germans. My argument is not about Germans (or their intent) or communism, but rather about using "infected" to describe the spread of a political idea, which brings too much similarities to "disease", despite it's semantically correct meaning. "Propagated" or "circulated" again bring out the rapid spread of the idea (which is correct but not POV, since it did spread rapidly because of the existing situation), and the intent of the Germans is explained in the same paragraph anyway:"Meanwhile, Berlin, aware of the near-revolutionary unrest in Russia in the previous decade, launched its own propaganda war. The Foreign Ministry disseminated fake news reports that had the desired effect of demoralizing Russian soldiers.[63] Berlin's most successful tactic was to support far-left Russian revolutionaries [...] ". Also, using infected to point out that the Germans caused it, in addition to the fact that it doesn't really achieve that goal, is not really correct. The political climate in Russia was already unstable and this caused the possibility of a change of regime, which the Germans exploited - but they weren't the sole cause of it. If it wasn't for the willingness of revolutionaries, Russia's poor military (and political) leadership, and the already demoralized work force (note that Russia had a prior revolution in 1905), the Germans could have sent whoever they wanted, there wouldn't have been any revolution... The article on the February revolution cites: "The February 1917 revolution...grew out of prewar political and economic instability, technological backwardness, and fundamental social divisions, coupled with gross mismanagement of the war effort, continuing military defeats, domestic economic dislocation, and outrageous scandals surrounding the monarchy. (Rabinovitch, 2008, p. 1)". 135.23.202.24 (talk) 14:15, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

"infect" has been used by political historians for 250 years without any dispute and does not in any way reflect any Wiki POV. As for the multiple Russian revolutions, most RS give great attention to losing the war to the Germans. They all mention how Berlin proved decisive in getting Lenin into Russia from his exile. Hundreds of thousands of radicalized angy ex-POWs played a role in person-to-person radicalization. Rjensen (talk) 16:02, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

I just said that for the purpose of this dispute, I dont give an eff about Germany or the intent of it's leaders or even Lenin! The issue is the word "infect", not what happened (which neither of us seems to disagree about). "Infect" has been used about plenty of historians, as you say, but almost in all cases to reflect a negative (or at the very least mocking) opinion of the subject (as in the Spain case, where the author uses it to mock the Spanish POV of the "infection by radical democratic ides". If the sources have a negative opinion of communism, that can be noted. However, whether the POWs were radicals or to which extent, we cannot simply use "infect" to describe a larger political idea. Even the multiple articles on nazism or fascism, which are incontestably bad, don't use the word "infected" or any variant thereof. Why would we use it in relation to communism, which is less despised than either of the far right ideologies (and that, despite that fact that in practice, it had a hard time achieving it's stated goals of "economic equality" or other idealized dreams)? 135.23.202.24 (talk) 16:38, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

there is no pov -- the idea was to destabilize the status quo. if someone in 2017 likes the status quo in 1917 hey're angry at the Germans, but not at the word. oppose the status quo then applaud the Germans but in either case "infect" is exactly the best term. In the Spanish example the author was opposed to the Spanish status quo and welcomed the infection. Likewise Zanzibar. As for communists, I note that Stalin used the term himself so it's not a naughty word for them. Rjensen (talk) 19:31, 20 December 2017 (UTC).

The American author uses the word ironically... yes to applaud the idea of democracy but he does so ironically by mocking the Spanish status quo, saying it is "infected". As for Stalin 1. it's a translation, so we don't know what the usage of the word in Russian might have been - maybe it has more or less of a negative connotation than in English 2. uses infected in a negative sense, i.e. "infected with political blindness". The Zanzibar example is the exception that proves the rule. You don't seem to have read my comment about the use of infected in articles related to other (more) extreme ideologies. I'll go ask for a third opinion. 135.23.202.24 (talk) 20:12, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

all these historians get it wrong for 250 years??!--but you have not cited anyone who supports your private reading. Rjensen (talk) 20:25, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

Please cite for me the part where I say that historians are wrong... 135.23.202.24 (talk) 20:35, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

do you agree that the Russian ex pow's did cause their comrades to hold anti-status quo attitudes or not? Rjensen (talk) 20:50, 20 December 2017 (UTC)

I thought that was clear - yes, the attitude of the people who caused the Russian revolution, including the POWs, was clearly anti-status quo. I thought the dispute was about the term "infected". Have you read the part where I wrote about the use of the term in articles related to fascism or nazism ([1])?

Favorable usage is common: 1) "The city was a modern metropolis but still deeply segregated [in 1950s]. Leopoldville became infected by the ideas of independence and political liberation." [PALGRAVE

ENCYCLOPEDIA OF IMPERIALISM (2016)]; 2) "In the simplest situation there are two populations, I(t) denotes the number of already infected (either with biological objects capable of transmit infection or with revolutionary ideas to be transferred to others) individuals, and S(t) is the number of susceptible individuals." [Peter Erdi - 2007]; 3) Collier Dictionary definition #2: revolutionize " to inspire or infect with revolutionary ideas: they revolutionized the common soldiers." Rjensen (talk) 10:23, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

It's not that favorable usage never happens - it's just that it's less often used when there could be ambiguity whether it's favorable or not. In this case, I prefer not creating any ambiguity (since readers might judge the term differently) and using the more neutral "propagated" or other variants I proposed. As for infect, what you are citing is examples, while we should be looking at reliable sources and concluding from what they say whether the term is neutral or not. The Collins dictionary gives multiple plausible meanings for infect, one being "to affect, esp[ecially] adversely, as if by contagion", and gives as example "His urge for revenge would never infect her." Oxford Dictionnaries (online) has "(of a negative feeling or idea) take hold of or be communicated to (someone)". The slight disagreement between these 2 sources suggests that while the use can be occasionally positive, it is usually seen as negative (because of the more common usage of the word being linked with disease). 135.23.202.24 (talk) 16:45, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

For propagate, Webster gives "to cause to spread out and affect a greater number or greater area" or alternatively "to foster growing knowledge of, familiarity with, or acceptance of (something, such as an idea or belief)", which both share much of their meaning with "infected", yet avoid the possibility of looking as if we were judging it in Wikipedia's voice (whether positive or negative).

Would you mind summarizing your view below so we can get the opinion of somebody else? Thanks! 135.23.202.24 (talk) 16:45, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Third opinion

François Robere (talk · contribs) wants to offer a third opinion. To assist with the process, editors are requested to summarize the dispute in a short sentence below.

Viewpoint by 135.23.202.24

The spirit of WP:SAY tells us that using non-neutral synonyms should be avoided, even if it is the word used in the source - thus, it is my opinion that using "infected" to describe the spread of a political idea, no matter it's merits or the motivations of those behind it, brings a non-neutral POV to the article, especially given that other, simpler terms which do not have a link with "infection/disease", such as "propagated" or "circulated", can be used. 01:19, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Viewpoint by Rjensen

....

Third opinion by François Robere

Rjensen has not summarized his view, but reading through the above discussion I can the gist of it, and I completely agree with the IP editor.

1) Whatever the use of "infected" may be in literature, this is an encyclopedia meant for common consumption, and so must consider terms' common usage. "Infected"'s common usage is inextricably tied with sickness and disease, and by way of metaphor with unwanted ideologies and even people; indeed this is also the case in about half the citation brought by Rjensen.

2) On the other side is the question of accurately representing a source: is the use of that source justified without using infected? The answer is obviously yes, as there are many alternatives, such as "convinced", "swayed" and "supported", and even - in certain cases - "infectious idea" rather than "infected persons". If it was particularly relevant - and it isn't, assuming neutrality on behalf of the source - one could use "infected" in a sidenote.

Bottom line: Wiki is meant for mass consumption, and as such common parlance is used where possible. Here there are alternatives from common parlance that don't alter the meaning of the sentence or intention of the source, and do not convey a POV, making them much preferable to the term in question. François Robere (talk) 20:05, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

Robert E. Lee RfC

As a recent contributor to Talk:Robert E. Lee, you are receiving this notice for an RfC at of a proposed restatement of a wp:primary source which contains more points than the existing block quote from the letter. The primary source is a 1856 letter of Lee’s to his wife from Texas as found at Alexander Long, Memoirs of Robert E. Lee: his military and personal history (1886), p. 82-83. Opponents have seen wp:original research in the proposal as drawing conclusions not found in the primary source. A rewrite of the first proposal follows an edit break. TheVirginiaHistorian (talk) 08:45, 21 December 2017 (UTC)

User group for Military Historians

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Dispute Resolution

This message is being sent to let you know of a discussion at the Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard regarding challenging sources. Content disputes can hold up article development and make editing difficult for editors. You are not required to participate, but you are both invited and encouraged to help this dispute come to a resolution. The thread is "Talk:Cold War#Secret_treaties,_#Russian_revolution_section".The discussion is about the topic Cold War. Please join us to help form a consensus. Thank you! --GPRamirez5 (talk) 16:10, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Editor's Barnstar
	Thanks Andrew Spana (talk) 17:44, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

Elizabethan Era

Hello Mr. Jensen,

I am interested in European History and saw your name under the "View history" page quite often. I had a couple of questions that I would like to ask specifically about the Elizabethan Era, and was hoping we would be able to have somewhat of a conversation. I was also wondering if you knew anyone who specialized in this field, as I am hoping to write a research paper on it. My main question is: How did Queen Elizabeth create a sense of national identity in England? I have been researching this topic and was hoping you would be able to provide some insight.

Thanks for your time, -Andrew — Preceding unsigned comment added by Andrew Spana (talk • contribs) 17:58, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

I suggest you look at the "Historiography and memory" section of the Elizabeth article --especially A)

Collinson, Patrick. "Elizabeth I and the verdicts of history," Historical Research, Nov 2003, Vol. 76 Issue 194, pp 469–91 and B) Doran, Susan, and Thomas S. Freeman, eds. The Myth of Elizabeth.(2003) a 280 page book and C) pp. Greaves, Richard L., ed. Elizabeth I, Queen of England (1974), excerpts from historians. Your librarian can get these for you. GOOD LUCK! Rjensen (talk) 18:55, 2 January 2018 (UTC)

This Month in Education: December 2017

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FYI

Might be of interest to you: "In his speech, he [Karl Rove] described a visit to the White House by the revisionist historian Forrest McDonald, who spoke about presidential greatness. Rove expressed delight at discovering a fellow McKinley enthusiast , and said that McDonald had explained in his talk, “Nobody knows McKinley is great, because history demanded little of him. He modernized the presidency, he modernized the Treasury to deal with the modern economy, he changed dramatically the policies of his party by creating a durable governing coalition for 40 years”—this last part clearly excited Rove—“and he attempted deliberately to break with the Gilded Age politics. He was inclusive, and he was the first Republican candidate for president to be endorsed by a leader in the Catholic hierarchy. The Protestant Anglo-Saxon Republicans were scandalized by his 1896 campaign, in which he paraded Portuguese fishermen and Slovak coal miners and Serbian iron workers to Canton, Ohio, to meet him. He just absolutely scandalized the country." The Rove Presidency. --Taterian (talk) 02:06, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

yes very much so--many thanks! Rjensen (talk) 03:03, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Grant

I replied to you at the article talk page, there is just no way a single Christmas article can support including any of this, regardless of it being White. So, I'm not sure you understood why we are opposed. Thanks. Alanscottwalker (talk) 03:43, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Also, can I ask you what limitations would you put on this very lengthy article that is covered by multiple scholarship, per WP:SUMMARY? We cannot just add and add things, supported by singular (often relatively poor) sources not trying to summarize the whole body of scholarship, giving things undue weight. Right? Alanscottwalker (talk) 04:12, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

As for White, he gave the point special attention outside his book, and that certainly counts as a solid rs for me (I did not jump into the debate, my opinion was asked for). As for bio article i favor moving lots of text to the presidential article--all presidents sign off on lots of issues that in fact are undertaken by others. On a last point: "undue weight" is a Wiki rule that in my opinion applies to historiographical interpretations that are mostly rejected by the RS--it does not apply to ideas or events that have NOT been rejected by any scholars. Rjensen (talk) 07:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, we have some disagreements there but I recommended toward the beginning of the discussion, that although this Christmas article should not go in the bio, they should look to the other articles, including the presidency article, so that would solve the whole thing. Can you agree to not putting it in the bio? Alanscottwalker (talk) 12:46, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Following up on Undue, and related issues in a more general sense for any article with lots of scholarship, I'd appreciate your thoughts, here. We have, say millions and millions of words in those sources -- we can't put them all in, how do limit them - how do we cut? What are the principled limitations? My sense is you look toward the main, what's in multiple scholars. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:26, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

agree-yes--the best place for Xmas story is the presidency article. When multiple scholars agree then yes. However when one scholar has a new idea that came after the books from other scholars were published , then it can indeed be included. Bottom line is that wiki editors decide what's appropriate for the wiki readership. Rjensen (talk) 00:59, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Could you go back to the article and opine about placement in the president article, and also perhaps address wording, you'll see the discussion but part of it is whether anything needs to be in-text attributed ('White says') and part of it has to do with the very limited nature of the law (only in DC, see [2] page 1). Alanscottwalker (talk) 01:26, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

Ok i did so. :) Rjensen (talk) 01:36, 12 January 2018 (UTC)

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Copyvio, how to deal with them

Hi, I saw this edit where you removed a copyvio. Do you know when it was inserted into the article? If so, Template:revdel should be used to remove it from the article history. If you are unsure how to use that template, then I can apply it if you give me the original offending diff. DuncanHill (talk) 17:24, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

No i did not check the history. I noticed that you flagged the article and did a matching search that gave a book and isbn but not the original quote. Rjensen (talk) 17:33, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

I've found the original edit, but cannot find a book with that ISBN. If you let me know the title and author I shall do the revdel request. DuncanHill (talk) 17:35, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

LA Times

seems the Modern Era section structurally competes with the Ownership section for the purchase details — Preceding unsigned comment added by Duedilly (talk • contribs) 19:02, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

FDR

Please do not start an edit war. You removed sourced information (Smith 2007 417–418, Burns 1956, p. 256 and Dallek 1995, p. 180) so you are in the wrong here. LittleJerry (talk) 23:35, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

If you want to add those sites back then simply do so and not erase lots of new material. Rjensen (talk) 23:39, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

You removed more cites than you added. LittleJerry (talk) 23:48, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

I only removed cites that were superfluous because they referred to the same titles over and over again. Rjensen (talk) 00:24, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

They are not superfluous. Its the same sources but different pages. This style of sourcing is common in articles, including FAs. LittleJerry (talk) 00:34, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

it's much better to add fresh new sources instead of repeating the same one over and over and over. Rjensen (talk) 00:47, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Not if the article already has a wealthy bibliography by which one can draw information. LittleJerry (talk) 16:49, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

the new cites are the basis for new info being added--they go well beyond the old standby biographies. Rjensen (talk) 19:43, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXLII, February 2018

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Asphalt

In your 02-15-18 edit of Asphalt, I'm confused by some of the wording. I can't quite tell what you intended, so won't try to edit. My questions inserted here: "By 1900 American cities boasted 30 million square yards of asphalt paving, followed by brick construction. (followed by?) It proved (word missing?) for bicycles and especially for automobiles...". WCCasey (talk) 20:37, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

you're right--it was a cut and paste and I have entirely reworked it to make more sense and open up new scholarly studies on street paving. Rjensen (talk) 21:56, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Commonwealth of Nations - Economy

Your recent contributions on the postwar economic links within the Commonwealth was interesting, but included some seemingly random text. I haven't been able to guess what the original intent was, so I thought I'd ask you. Search for "was a post" to see what I mean.

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Commonwealth_of_Nations&oldid=822655845 [your revision]

ferg2k (talk) 16:52, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

You're right--I fixed it just now. thanks. Rjensen (talk) 21:05, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Conservatism biblio

You've been a major contributor to the listing and I think it is worthwhile. To stem the push for deletion, does my suggestion about limiting the scope to notable works and authors make sense? If so, who should take the laboring oar? (Caveat - I may be unlinked in a week or so because of personal commitments.) – S. Rich (talk) 07:29, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I think the list is pretty short -- the idea is to help people find studies that interest them and so you need to provide a variety. People who want it short get that in the "surveys" list. Rjensen (talk) 08:14, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Quotes

You do understand that an author uses quotes to specifically indicate that he or she is not lending credence to the text inside the quotes, for example "friendly relations" in the cite you provide?

Best,

JS (talk) 16:10, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

"friendly relations" was a common term in diplomacy in 1930s. see http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/ns112.asp for a good example i'm guessing that Hitler was planning to eventually end that friendship. He explains later that economic relations were quite good until the actual day of invasion in 1941. The German-USSR treaty of Sept 28 1939 stated: The Government of the German Reich and the Government of the U.S.S.R. regard this settlement as a firm foundation for a progressive development of the friendly relations between their peoples." see http://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/gsbound.asp Rjensen (talk) 16:24, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

The point is that if the author you cite puts the words friendly relations within quotation marks, it means he or she is not saying that relations were actually friendly, rather that someone somewhere called them friendly. So the assertion that relations were friendly still lacks a cite. Also if "Hitler was planning to eventually end that friendship", that is not "friendly relations", at best feigning friendly relations. That is what actually was happening. Hitler's opinion of "Bolshevism" as a creation of the Jews meant he was never going to be friendly with the Soviet Union. Stalin on the other hand thought that it was likely that in the future, due to their contrasting ideologies, the Soviet Union and Germany would end up fighting. The Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was only an attempt to buy time, it was not friendship. Also for this article the meaning of the words should be whatever the present day reader understands, rather than diplomatic terms from the 1930s. JS (talk) 00:39, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

the author is quoting the famous phrase used at the time--it's in the German-USSR treaty as I quoted. that does NOT mean he denies it. the article is very specific about dates. what you're not providing are cites from the sources you are using. take a look at Gerhard L. Weinberg (2010). Hitler's Foreign Policy 1933-1939: The Road to World War II. p. 767. on Hitler's "newfound Soviet friends" with no scare quotes. also p 749 "The Soviet Union had wanted good relations with Germany for years and was happy to see that feeling finally reciprocated" in 1939 [see https://books.google.com/books?id=o5FiQbU_nAkC&pg=PA749] Rjensen (talk) 01:37, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

This is one of those topics on which there is such diversity of opinion that a cite can be found for almost every opinion. You are free to continue believing that the Nazis were friendly with the Soviets. Here are a couple of paragraphs from the Wiki article on Lebensraum. "Following Adolf Hitler's rise to power, Lebensraum became an ideological principle of Nazism and provided justification for the German territorial expansion into East-Central Europe. The Nazi Generalplan Ost policy (the Master Plan for the East) was based on its tenets. It stipulated that most of the indigenous populations of Eastern Europe would have to be removed permanently (either through mass deportation to Siberia, death, or enslavement) including Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, and other Slavic nations considered racially inferior and non-Aryan. The Nazi government aimed at repopulating these lands with Germanic colonists in the name of Lebensraum during World War II and thereafter. The entire indigenous populations were to be decimated by starvation, allowing for their own agricultural surplus to feed Germany. Hitler's strategic program for world domination was based on the belief in the power of Lebensraum, pursued by a racially superior society. People deemed to be part of inferior races, within the territory of Lebensraum expansion, were subjected to expulsion or destruction.[7] The eugenics of Lebensraum assumed the right of the German Aryan master race (Herrenvolk) to remove indigenous people they considered to be of inferior racial stock (Untermenschen) in the name of their own living space." To the best of my understanding of the word, a "friend" is not someone whose house you are planning to take over after killing him. I do not have the time to argue, so I will let it go. Best, JS (talk) 03:12, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

if you want to quote a reliable source, please do so--quoting wiki is not allowed for that role. in fact the Wiki article is quoting Gerhard Weinberg about the situation in 1933. that article does not deal with the changes in 1938-39 that we are discussing--you need to read the real Weinberg not a truncated Wiki version. Rjensen (talk) 03:55, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

east germany

why did you revert my edit? that was not a test edit, the "Partially recognized state" is not usually used is and is unnecessary 194.68.94.68 (talk) 10:52, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

dozens of reckless useless edits in a matter of minutes is a sure indicator of vandalism--and the disruptive editor who does it deserves blocking. if you actually have a point take it to the talk page first and give some RS for your claims Rjensen (talk) 10:56, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

its Obsessive–compulsive disorder i did not mean any vandalism, and there is no RS for that partially recognised label, so ok please have it removed it was added by Teddy.Coughlin who is is suspected of abusively using multiple accounts 194.68.94.68 (talk) 11:12, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

White trash

Hi. Your edits to this article are not in line with the source cited. Please cease making edits and discuss your concerns on the talk page, where I willhappy to answer them using specific cites from the source. Beyond My Ken (talk) 13:45, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I was trying to follow Isenberg much more closely. The sources she cites are often using the term "poor". H B Stowe talks about white trash but NOT in the passages quoted in this article. President Andrew Johnson did NOT use "trash" -- he used "poor" Rjensen (talk) 14:01, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

You are not.

Please be aware that your continuing to revert is in opposition to WP:BRD. You'e started discussions on the talk page, and that is good, but the article remains in the status quo ante while discussion is ongoing. Please respect that, and don't make me report you for edit-warring, it won't help to settle the content dispute, which I'm sure that we, both conscientious Wikipedians, can come to some agreement on. Beyond My Ken (talk) 23:26, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

tell us why the picture belongs--it is not related to the article--no one calls these folks white trash--Isenberg certainly does not. Rjensen (talk) 23:37, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm not having discussions in multiple places. You've started discussions on the article talk page, which is where they should all take place. Beyond My Ken (talk) 01:59, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

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William Temple

Hi,

I've been reading about William Temple here. However there is another book in his work. Would you mind to add Christian Faith and life (1931). Thank you Kris — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.25.174.205 (talk) 11:00, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

thanks for the tip--I added it. Rjensen (talk) 15:07, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Wizard of Oz

I'll leave it at your revision for now, but I'm not sure why you told me to "take it to talk" when there's already a thread there on this subject to which I have contributed but you have not. If you're serious about discussing the issues, then... please discuss them.—Chowbok ☠ 20:44, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

I have commented there. Calling serious writers "crackpots: shows a deep anti-scholarly bias. Rjensen (talk) 20:52, 11 March 2018 (UTC).

Calling obviously hare-brained theories "deserv[ing of] serious treatment" shows a deep pro-academic fetish.—Chowbok ☠ 21:35, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

people who sling terms like "hare-brained theories" and "crackpot" to RS materials show two things: a lack of imagination ("bunch of crap") when dealing with deep imagination in print, and having never studied scholarly articles in major journals such as American Quarterly Economic Perspectives and Journal of American Studies and Journal of Political Economy [which indeed study the Oz images] Rjensen (talk) 21:52, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

The political-allegory theories of The Wonderful Wizard of Oz are indeed deeply imaginative, I'll grant you that.—Chowbok ☠ 22:00, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

yes and yellow bricks = gold and green = greenback are beyond the ken of unimaginative people. Try reading American Quarerly Rjensen (talk) 22:04, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXLIII, March 2018

Your Military History Newsletter Project news: From the editors; awards and honours; contest results Articles: Last month's new featured and A-class content Book review: Hawkeye7 looks at a work by Daniel Ellsberg Op-ed: TomStar81 on the 1918 flu pandemic Timeline: This month in World War I

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Alumni Achievement Summaries

Hi, Rjensen. I noticed that you reverted the deletion of the alumni summary on the Princeton University page. I personally agree with you - that alumni summaries are standard and should be included on all university pages. However, two users, SeraphimBlade and ScrapIronIV, seem to believe they don't have a place on any college pages and have repeatedly removed them from the Williams College page. Can we rectify this somehow? They do not listen to any of my logic behind the inclusion of these alumni summaries, despite me repeatedly telling them that it's standard. GreylockFoW (talk) 23:02, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I think they belong--Rjensen (talk) 23:30, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

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French nationalism

The text is very strange, it doesn't mention Philippe Pétain. I don't know French history to write the page, but I see a great black hole.Xx236 (talk) 08:00, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

good point--I expanded the article to include him. Rjensen (talk) 09:22, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

April 2018 Milhist Backlog Drive

G'day all, please be advised that throughout April 2018 the Military history Wikiproject is running its annual backlog elimination drive. This will focus on several key areas:

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The drive starts at 00:01 UTC on 1 April and runs until 23:59 UTC on 30 April 2018. Those interested in participating can sign up here.

For the Milhist co-ordinators, AustralianRupert and MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 10:53, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Tuesday, 27 2018

FYI - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Richard_Hofstadter#Religion-category. Thank you! Suomalainen konformisuus (talk) 11:31, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Our job is not to parse Jewish "law" (who passed that law?) It's to follow the RS -- Brown is the leader here. All RS agree as an adult he was joined the Jewish community and was considered Jewish--and it hurt him in terms of not getting $$$ appointments. cites: 1) Brown. 2) Casden Institute for the Study of the Jewish Role in American Life by Andrew R. Heinze, ‎Jeremy Schoenberg, ‎Bruce Zuckerman - 2007: "Hofstadter (who was Jewish on his father's side and identified himself as a secular Jew)" 3)Scribner Encyclopedia of American Lives, Thematic Series: The 1960s (2003) bio by Jack J. Cardoso: "Hofstadter and his wife became part of the community of Jewish intellectuals." 4) online at http://jbuff.com/hall.htm "The Buffalo Jewish Hall of Fame honors those who have made a lasting contribution to the Jewish community of Buffalo and Jewish Buffalonians who have made a lasting contribution to the world. Selig Adler ... Richard Hofstadter (1916-1970). History." Rjensen (talk) 11:47, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Multiple sources are needed, not only one to override all other sources. A person has many roots/identifications, so why should we ignore one over another? So a "lasting contribution to the Jewish community" or Mr. Brown is not enough for this cherry picking categorisation? We have no source for Richard Hofstadter solely identifying as a Jew, if we go by self-identification as single the criteria for affiliation. Another approach would be sources that show that he was officially received in to a Jewish religious community, i.e. a conversion in some form or another. It's imprecise and definitely not not scholarly rigorous to cite comments on some of Richard Hofstadter community bondings and attachments as the single deciding factor. So, pending a more exact outcome and discussion, I hope the religious categorisation would not be applied. We can also continue the more loose and unsettled approach and just apply some/all the sources, mening we categorise him as Lutheran, raised Episcopalian and Jewish. The identity pluralist way instead of one thick in the box? I recommend no category, until further discussion and sources. Suomalainen konformisuus (talk) 13:12, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

we have proof that the Buffalo Jewish Community officially recognized him as a Jewish Buffalonians who have made a lasting contribution to the world. Now let's talk about the RS about Hofstadter that you are using--none thus far. 13:53, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

This Month in Education: March 2018

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This Month in Education

Volume 7 | Issue 3 | March 2018

This monthly newsletter showcases the Wikipedia Education Program. It focuses on sharing: your ideas, stories, success and challenges. You can see past editions here. You can also volunteer to help publish the newsletter. Join the team! Finally, don't forget to subscribe!

In This Issue

Featured Topic	Education Programs Itinerary
From the Community	Animated science educational videos in Basque for secondary school student Beirut WikiClub: Wikijourney that has enriched our experiences Students of the Faculty of Biology in Belgrade edit Wikipedia for the first time The role of Wikipedia in education - Examples from the Wiki Education Foundation Multilingual resource for Open education projects Wikipedia: examples of curricular integration in Portugal
From the Education Team	Resources and Tips to engage with Educators Education Session at WMCON 2018

Subscribe/Unsubscribe · Global message delivery · For the team: Romaine 10:33, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Boulding

Hello Rjensen. Thanks for your work on the Kenneth Boulding article. The article is way too loaded up with relatively insignificant detail and dated piecemeal assessments of his work. The result is, paradoxically, that his lasting and most significant contributions are lost in the soup. I think this has been the impression of many seasoned editors and users who have gone to his article, so I hope you will consider trimming some of the redundant statements and less enduring facts and details concerning this great thinker. I'm not likely to do much work on this myself, so this is just food for thought. SPECIFICO talk 13:20, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

OK I'll look into it. His election to the presidency of multiple groups in a wide variety of fields is not I think an incidental characteristics, but indeed his central characteristic that makes them so interesting. Its hard to think of a single scholar with a wider range of interests. That is the perspective from 2018 – during his lifetime, his reputation focused on deep insights, but today I think his breadth is much more interesting than the depth. the great insights are rarely referenced in the journals of 2018. Rjensen (talk) 14:23, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Clarifications on recommendations for editing the Wiki entry on 'Fascism'

Just wanted to follow up on your feedback. Was the problem that I cited Passmore? I've found other sources that make similar arguments; my rationale was that Passmore already appeared on the page and offered a nuanced, complex view of fascism on the political spectrum. My aim is to promote neutrality and accuracy, and the current versions of the phrasing make it appear as though there is a consensus among historians that fascism = far right phenomenon when there's far more agreement that it's not that simplistic.

Would it help if I cited Robert Paxton instead on the same point? Paxton, Robert (2004). The Anatomy of Fascism (reprint edition). Vintage. p.8. I thought I would run it by you before bringing it up on the talk page.

Also, I'm new to wikipedia. If it's more appropriate to bring this up on the topic talk page, let me know.Contributor451 (talk) 18:43, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Take it to the talk page. Rjensen (talk) 22:01, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Weimar Republic

[copied from here to Talk:Weimar Republic
I think that matter should probably be raised in some WikiProject to resolve that question. I can live with the compromise of just putting "Germany" there for now, even though I still strongly believe that giving the official name of the state is the way to go. I also disagree with the first sentence in the Weimar Republic article. It says it "is an unofficial, historical designation for the German state", which is not the case, the term describes a period, not a state. By international law, Germany during the Weimar Republic is the same state as it was since 1871 and as it was until 1945. Zwerg Nase (talk) 09:39, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

The official name was "Deutsches Reich" -the Germans used only the German language in official documents -- the English translation was never "official". Much worse: the English term is highly misleading to English language speakers (which is the audience for this Wikipedia). Cambridge English dictionaries say that "the Reich" is a standard term for Nazi period. Evans is very useful here: The continued use of the term 'German Empire', Deutsches Reich, by the Weimar Republic....conjured up an image among educated Germans that resonated far beyond the institutional structures Bismarck created: the successor to the Roman Empire; the vision of God's Empire here on earth; the universality of its claim to suzerainty; and a more prosaic but no less powerful sense, the concept of a German state that would include all German speakers in central Europe--'one People, one Reich, one Leader', as the Nazi slogan was to put it." Richard J. Evans (2005). The Coming of the Third Reich. Penguin. p. 33. Rjensen (talk) 09:56, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Misguided reverting

You have undone some of my edits, without bothering to explain why. Your actions suggest either that you are unfamiliar with WP:NPOV, WP:PEACOCK, WP:IG and WP:REVEXP, or that you are being deliberately disruptive. As you've been editing since 2005, the former seems unlikely. Kindly improve your conduct in the future. 149.14.147.61 (talk) 10:54, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

You did not explain them on the U of Notre Dame talk page--and you have never been part of the editing team for this article. The galleries follow the Wiki guidelines--they exist in 2% of the articles, which = 100,000 plus galleries in Wikipedia. ND alumni are a major part of what makes the school famous. Even more so the football stars that have had many media articles over the decades. Likewise your denial that Rockne was famous & likewise the Gipp quote is pretty far out extremism. WP: Peacock is about UNSOURCED exaggerated claims, Neither point applies. NPOV is about including multiple viewpoints--which you have not told us about. this discussion belongs on the article talk page Rjensen (talk) 11:05, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXLIIV, April 2018

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If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 09:55, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Typo?

In France–United States relations you added However as the Americans grew mightily and economic power,... I think that must be a typo or some words left out but without access to the ref, I won't try to guess a correction.Cavrdg (talk) 08:53, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks--you have a sharp eye! I fixed it to read "grew mightily in economic power" Rjensen (talk) 11:00, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for working with student

@Rjensen: Kudos for your patience in working with my student User:Haydenstephens on the Jazz Age article. Your comment does far more than I can to cue them into what Wiki editing is all about.

History of the Netherlands

Seems to be missing Netherlands New Guinea 1945-1962, attempt to remove 3000 Axis Japanese officers from Java 1945-1949, attempt to implement requirements of UN Charter chapter XI during 1945-1948 in East Indies and 1950-1962 in Netherlands New Guinea. Daeron (talk) 19:51, 16 April 2018 (UTC)