User talk:Jimbo Wales

"Expunge" from the record

This CBC video includes some comments by a Member of Canada's Parliament which were subsequently voted to be expunged from the official record. So far this appears to be the first time in history that this scrubbing of the official record has happened, which is why I think it may be an important event. What do you think? Nocturnalnow (talk) 00:04, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't know enough about record keeping for Canadian Parliament to have a strong view. Certainly as you've presented it, it seems surprising. But how important it is, I can't really guess.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:27, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Cooper argued that it was "defamatory" to compare conservatism to the New Zealand shootings, and quoted Tarrant's manifesto to back his case: the killer wrote “Conservatism is corporatism in disguise. I want no part of it … The nation with the closest political and social values to my own, is the People’s Republic of China.” The relevance of this quote is debatable; if you consult the archive of a now-censored news article ([1]) and read the manifesto, you'll see that Tarrant expresses admiration for Oswald Mosley immediately before and after saying this -- you'll see he said a lot of pretty random things. Even so, there can be no doubt that extraordinary and wrong-headed efforts being made to stigmatize and criminalize ordinary scholarship, beginning with New Zealand's official censorship and long prison terms for people sharing the manifesto, and continuing on to stripping the committee membership of an MP and savage the record over a fully innocuous quote, are a threat to Wikipedia.Wnt (talk) 06:39, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

I had the same "threat to Wikipedia" along with threat to historical records, threat to freedom of speech etc. opinion. But it occurs to me, Is something a threat to any aspect of society if it is not recognised as a threat. For example, were slave owners' ships a "threat" when they first appeared on the east coast of Africa before they started apprehending people? Even then, were they a threat if those apprehended just felt a "WTF is going on" feeling as they were being hauled away? I mean, this particular scrubbing of our parliamentary record has me feeling "WTF is going on", but do I feel under threat? personally? Not really. I feel as if I am out of touch with mainstream norms and attitudes which broadly accept these events in the name of not publicizing hate. And ironically, very ironically, I have a reluctance to speak out against the trend which reminds me of a reluctance I felt long, long ago, which was a heavy reluctance to express any opinions to my childhood pals which could be put into the category of me being a "N____ Lover". I was asked if I was a N_____ Lover once when we were standing in a small circle watching one of our pals pound the shit out of a much younger black boys' head, and he took a break and laughingly said something like "N_____s sure have hard heads" while the young boy wept profusely.

So, I said "maybe you better stop", and all my pals, just like a bunch of robots, looked at me contemptuously and asked if I was a "n______ lover". I remember at that exact moment in time thinking that I was close to losing all of my fun activities with my pals, exploring in the woods, playing pick-up baseball, football and basketball, so I timidly just shut up and waited til Happy (that was his nickname) got physically tired of pounding on the young black boy's head.

Well, I know this is an analogy which itself might be considered a "threat" to someone's self image...to equate keeping silent about removing from the public record a benign portion of some manifesto by a racist with keeping silent about an overt act of violent racism; all I can say is that this feeling inside me, of being boxed in as to what I'm allowed to believe and say, is exactly the same feeling.

Bottom line, the "you can't fight City Hall" mantra is not nearly as true, imo, as "you have to go along to get along" mantra, and today's cultural/societal conformities, virtually everywhere in the world, are just as, if not more, controlling as they were in the South of the 1950s. Nocturnalnow (talk) 15:15, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

Oxford

Great to hear that you are invited by my college to come to Oxford this Friday, I'm looking forward to seeing you! Aivin G. (talk) 21:15, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

You'd always be welcome to the lighter Blue destination, especially the 1284 variant. We are ahead in The Boat Race too, just...! The Rambling Man (talk) 21:36, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Be sure to say hi!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 21:42, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

That's my mother's college. Sorry I wasn't there - I don't check this page very often. 150.143.100.190 (talk) 14:49, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Invitation to join the Fifteen Year Society

Dear Jimbo Wales,

I'd like to extend a cordial invitation to you to join the Fifteen Year Society, an informal group for editors who've been participating in the Wikipedia project for fifteen years or more. ​

Best regards, Urhixidur (talk) 16:43, 6 June 2019 (UTC)

mail

Hello, Jimbo Wales. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

via press@wikia.com for The Signpost

Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:48, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

That email address will go to someone at Wikia, not to me personally, so perhaps better to contact me a different way?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:58, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

OK, I'll try 2 addresses that have worked before (One was a long time ago!). I will remove from your user page "For inquiries about my personal views on some general topic, contact my assistant, Samantha, at press@wikia.com. She knows how to find me as quickly as possible," but will leave that address up for inquiries about Wikia. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 14:40, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Oh my that is so seriously out of date. I should update it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 14:58, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Admin Fram locally banned by T&S for one year.

Since this is going to show up on your doorstep at some point See here. Why is Trust and Safety enacting local bans without any local wiki involvement from crats/arbcom? If its a trust and safety issue why are they not banned from all projects. If its a trust and safety issue why is the user going to be suddenly more trustworthy and safe for other users in a year's time here but are apparantly trustworthy and safe on all other wikis in the meantime? If whoever had this bright idea at the WMF thought this was the quiet way to handle this issue, have they ever actually visited ENWP? Only in death does duty end (talk) 20:39, 10 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi Jimbo. Hope this finds you well. Not sure how involved you are in governance these days, but the matter of User:Fram being banned by WMF T&S as an "office action" is unprecedented and is certainly not doing anything to bring the ENWP community and WMF closer together. You would do well to at least ask some questions. Best regards, UninvitedCompany 22:17, 10 June 2019 (UTC) (Steve Dunlop/Arbitration committee 2006-2008)

It shocks me to discover that there is a shadowy behind the scenes cabal that can unilaterally block the account of one of the best admins here, remove his admin rights, disable his email, lock his talk page and respond to inquiries by saying "We aren't going to explain why we did this and there's nothing you can do about it. ". Stalinist. Tyrannical. If it can happen to Fram it can happen to any of us. Zero respect shown to the volunteers who make this project. Smeat75 (talk) 00:58, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

What disturbs me even more is that the WMF's policy is that no appeal is available for Office actions. Not even to the WMF. Jimbo, something is starting to smell rotten in the state of Denmark, and I think we need you to look at reining them in, somehow. rdfox 76 (talk) 01:04, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I don't think I have ever posted on this user talk before...imagine that! I must be one of the few. In any case, this unilateral banning and the stonewalling surrounding it is very disturbing. Shearonink (talk) 02:45, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm glad to see I'm not alone in finding the lack of transparency deeply disturbing. I do hope Jimbo responds. Benjamin (talk) 06:53, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• No, no. Jimbo looking at the block itself is pointless. He has no business putting his fingers into such details, and T&S really shouldn't be giving him details of such cases, and he really shouldn't be (trying to) overruling T&S in any plausible circumstances.
  However, there are two issues it would be useful to look into: 1) how in the world could anyone imagine that taking this kind of action without good and immediate communication would not lead to a giant mess and possibly fatally wound the relationship between the community and the WMF; and 2) is the use of per-project and time-limited blocks really appropriate for the kinds of issues T&S should be dealing with?
  If the editor in question had been globally blocked indefinitely with an immediate message to that effect on some suitable noticeboard (and preferably with headsups to ArbCom and other trusted authorities) I would have shrugged and figured they had good reasons. With a partial and time limited ban it just looks like T&S has expanded its scope to step waaay down into what should (by any sane measure) be handled by the community, but without the accountability and control community processes operate under; and the lack of early communication, and the lacking (in the sense "poor": it addressed none of the community's genuine concerns) later communication, looks like real incompetence. Anyone that couldn't figure out (or, worse, didn't care that) this would be massively damaging to community trust should not be making decisions affecting this community without first taking remedial classes (and, yes, I am aware of all whom I include in that statement).
  Some fallout is inevitable and the cost of having important functions like T&S; but the actual current situation was easily avoidable. And "avoidable conflict" is starting to be a deeply embedded pattern for WMF interaction with enwp. --Xover (talk) 07:22, 11 June 2019 (UTC)
  I take it back: this is absolutely grounds for Jimbo to wade into the fray and try to figure out what in the blazes is going on. Try as hard as I might, I can find no reasonable justifcation for this based on available evidence. --Xover (talk) 08:39, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

There is now a statement from Fram at Commons that has been copied over to WT:BN locally.[2] Yes this is crazy and if the WMF wants to micromanage Wikipedia at this level, it better be ready to handle a lot of routine vandal reversion and spelling corrections as well. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 08:54, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I was entirely unaware of this before just now. I'm reviewing the situation.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:07, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Jimbo, thanks for looking into it. 67.164.113.165 (talk) 09:11, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, thanks for investigating Jimbo. This is a very serious situation - like many people I am staggered that an organisation which itself fights regularly for openness and transparency on the internet has taken such a step as this, especially for what are apparently very minor infringements. I very much hope the ban can be reversed because this risks permanent damage to the project. Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 10:26, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I would echo that. Behind-closed-doors banning of editors who criticise the competence of Arbcom etc is not something we should be condoning in the 21st century. The Rambling Man (talk) 10:28, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for looking into this. Bear in mind that, per WMF policy, paid editing is allowed with any one of three different ways of notifying people, your "bright line rule" is routinely violated without penalty and there is no interest in stopping it, outside media are calling attention to it, and there is nothing we can do about it. Every six months like clockwork for the next decade, like the last, Wikipedia will run an ad for Square Enix as "Today's featured article". WMF will say that it cannot stop the commercialism because "it has a hands-off policy". Yet it does this to Fram, to defend the right of a small cabal that supposedly settles disputes to supervote what articles to delete (nay, I should say censor, since this is from above us in every way) without hearing unpleasant criticism. Riddle out what inferences can be drawn and comes next after this. Wnt (talk) 12:10, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• Hi Jimbo, please note the ongoing discussion has been centralized at Wikipedia:Community response to Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram should you wish to follow it. — xaosflux ^Talk 13:55, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

• Jimbo, to preempt inevitable escalation, may I suggest that you unblock Fram? If Fram's summary of events is accurate, I don't see why we cannot discuss the reported infractions on-wiki and why Fram cannot be unblocked while that discussion takes place. And in case that summary is missing some important details, it would be useful if you or someone from T&S told us so explicitly. Speaking for myself, the lack of information and bureaucratic speak has been one of the most frustrating part of this brouhaha, and antithetical to the openness to participation and scrutiny that attracted me to the wikiprojects. Abecedare (talk) 15:19, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

I agree with most of this, but if Jimbo does that it will probably cause the atmosphere to catch fire or something. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 15:30, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I'm firmly recommending that we all relax a notch or two. It's not even 9am in California. There is no emergency here. I have raised the issue with the WMF, and so has Doc James. I am also talking to ArbCom. It is really important that we not take actions to escalate conflict - nor are such actions necessary. If there comes a need for a time for the community to firmly disagree with the WMF and take action, then that time is only after a proper reflection on the full situation, with everyone having a chance to weigh in.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:33, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

Hi

Don't mean to bother you, but I just saw those edit wars people have been having on your user page. I mean, WTF??😂 Seriously though, not good, is it?👿 GOLDIEM J (talk) 15:32, 11 June 2019 (UTC)