Wikipedia talk:Community response to the Wikimedia Foundation's ban of Fram

Asking for Eissfeldt's resignation

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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I've been holding my tongue and waiting to see how the board, WMF, arbcom, Jimbo, et al, are going to respond. It's been two weeks, and no acceptable response has come forth.

I am at the point where I believe it is appropriate for the community to ask for Jan Eissfeldt's resignation. Eissfeldt's initial handling of this matter, and the unvarnished arrogance of his responses to the community, demonstrate that he is wholly unsuited for a paid leadership role within WMF.

We can then discuss specific proposals, bridge the divide, and find a way forward with his replacement.

UninvitedCompany 20:33, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

• Support I said right from the get-go that this was incompetence from WMF of a magnitude never witnessed before, regardless of the detail. In any other walk of life, this would result in a career-changing decision. Eissfeldt should go. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:40, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• I strongly oppose a community request for Jan to resign. This is exactly what the purpose of a role account is: to prevent individual employees from being assigned blame for actions of the WMF Office. This is not something one can blame on a single employee, especially not when they are restricted by laws and WMF policy from going through with what most community members request of them. Jan has been doing a great job as head of T&S, helping myself and many other community members in significant ways that cannot be ignored. This is a learning opportunity, not a firing opportunity. Vermont (talk) 20:45, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• EDIT: I have some sympathy for him (he was willing to step forward and speak under his own name), but this isn't the first time he screwed up like this, and ultimately, the head of T&S needs to be someone the community trusts. Eissfeldt doesn't meet that criteria and seems unlikely to regain that trust in the foreseeable future. I don't like the idea of going after one person like this, but it's really, really important to get the T&S role right; given his history, Eissfeldt isn't the right person to be doing it right now. --Aquillion (talk) 20:42, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose This puts too much focus for the mess on just one person. North8000 (talk) 20:54, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Neutral. I was going to say that I think this goes too far, but I've just realised that Jan was the person who used Superprotect on dewiki in August 2014 ([1]) to keep MediaViewer enabled by default against the community consensus expressed in a request for comment (see Q&A). Apparently the lessons from that regrettable incident have not be learned. It does make me wonder whether his holding a senior WMF role is compatible with respect for the autonomy of local communities. That said, we still know very little about who did what behind the curtain of the WMF role account. WJBscribe (talk) 20:51, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
  • I was unaware of that, and that does change things from my statement above. Once might be carelessness, but twice (coupled with the tone of his responses here) gives the impression that he has a degree of contempt for Wikipedia's longstanding principle of self-governance. As the head of T&S, he's the one who set up their process, and I think it's fair to ask him why he seems to have made no effort to keep the community involved - even given the privileged information problem, there's plenty of room to eg. have a community-selected representative like ArbCom sign an NDA and then have a role in the process or provide a venue for appeals. He seems dead-set on opposing any appeal process, but hasn't really articulated why he holds this position; and it's something he really, really needs to answer at this point, especially if T&S is going to continue with bans of this nature (which, inevitably, will eventually result in an outright mistake, regardless of the merits of this particular ban.) --Aquillion (talk) 20:54, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• The users in the chain of approval for Fram's office ban have done far worse things than Jan has. They are the ones who should be forced to resign, not him. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 20:47, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

• Jan would have ultimately had to sign off on it if he leads T&S, and his statements here have only served to rile us further. The last thing we want is someone who seems so disconnected with the community's demands writing messages. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^Bori! 21:09, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• (ec) I have no opinion on this either way so far - I suspect we have a systemic problem more than a personal problem. But according to File:Trust_and_Safety_Office_action_workflow.png, Jan, as Lead Manager of Trust & Safety, is in that chain. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:12, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

• I think this is completely unacceptable. In the same way we do not want WMF to tell us who may edit and who may not, we do not want to give them advise whom they hire and whom they do not hire.--Ymblanter (talk) 20:53, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• No, no, no. He’s just a kid who was put in a bad position due to poor leadership of the organization. Don’t blame him. Blame his bosses. Jehochman ^Talk 20:59, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

  But Jan is the mouthpiece, he's the one calling the responses (or not). The Rambling Man (talk) 21:11, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

  • This was my initial reaction, but Eissfeldt is the head of Trust and Security, not just some PR flac - he is the "boss" you're referring to, so he is the one who set the policies that led to this debacle. When he says that T&S decisions are not subject to appeal, for example, that is entirely his decision. And more generally, as I said above - the head of T&S absolutely needs to be someone who the community trusts to handle delicate, dangerous, complex situations using evidence they often won't be able to share with us. Eissfeldt clearly doesn't have that trust. Someone who did have that trust could have diffused this entire problem with just a few statements, rather than enflaming it as Eissfeldt has. --Aquillion (talk) 21:02, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, silly request. Volunteers can request WMF trustees put questions to senior management, including pointy questions about specific employee actions, and have lobbied for trustees to resign because they should be accountable to us, but Wikimedia volunteers should not be attempting to interfere directly with the CEO's HR decisions. --Fæ (talk) 21:03, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• This is not in our province, besides which I would never support terminating someone for making a single error or communicating poorly without first trying to correct their performance. According to the flowchart, the buck stops at the ED. Her employment status is the business of the Board of Trustees. In short: what Ymblanter said.- MrX 🖋 21:08, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

  It seems that it's not their first, thus not their single error, and their attempts at correcting their performance have been demonstrably disastrous. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:12, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. Regardless of what other people think, I think Jan has done the best job he possibly could given how tied back he is by policy. Also, what kind of message does it send to WMF that we are going to point our pitchforks at the one person offering the least bit explanation to this affair? Besides the point, he is in charge of the T&S team, but it's hard for users here to get a good picture for all the good work they do behind the scenes. No one is exactly going to be awarding public barnstars that say "Hey you did a good job referring me to Arbcom that one time someone [insert something here] to me. Thanks!" Let's worry about something more productive than trying to get people unemployed.. –MJL ‐Talk‐^☖ 21:17, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

  ... Jan has done the best job he possibly could ... then time to close the shutters and call it a day. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:18, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

  "given how tied back he is by policy" - do we know how these WMF policies were created in theory and in practice? I.e. who wrote the drafts and the proposals, and who decided to make them official policy? --Stephan Schulz (talk) 21:26, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

• Strong oppose, we are better than this, although I can understand the frustration and protection of the community. Asking for a person's job is a bit much and doesn't allow for the completion of the learning curve. Put him in the stocks for a few hours in the hot sun, that should be enough (livestream please). Randy Kryn (talk) 21:21, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• (ec) Strong Oppose: I wouldn't fuck with a person's real life based on what little information we have. I love Wikipedia, but that's just not the way to go. At best, this proposal is premature. That being said, the fact that we have seen some radical proposals receiving support here, including this one, might be a signal directed at WMF and T&S and ArbCom and Jimbo and and .. that people who care about this encyclopaedia, and prove how much they care on a daily basis, are more than just worried and upset. I, too, will probably abandon this project should no satisfactory explanation be forthcoming. Small loss, but I'm sure I'm not the only one. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• I agree with this. Jan is not competent and should do the honourable thing here and resign. It remains to be determined whether he should be the only person to resign (i.e if the ED should also find a sword and fall upon it) but Jan's an appropriate point in the chain to stop at first. The outcome of the T&S local one year ban and permission removal was entirely predictable, all but the dimmest of the dim would know what to expect when you come on to the English Wikipedia and usurp our own, locally elected (if deeply ineffectual) ArbCom. That's strike one. The defensive, arrogant, antagonistic approach undertaken by T&S since the imposition of the ban, the refusal to properly involve the local community in what is clearly a local community matter (else, we would have a global ban) is disgraceful and that is strike two. The heavy implication now from Jimmy and others that there has been errors, that the ban may not actually be correct, that T&S haven't conducted themselves correctly throughout the whole case, that's strike three, and given previous inappropriate use of WMF permissions in contravention of community consensus (Superprotect) that's a fourth strike. He needs to go. Push. Jump. Whatever, he needs to depart. And we need someone to run T&S who respects the community, that will engage and connect. Nick (talk) 21:25, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

• Look at his LinkedIn page. He’s just a kid. The flowchart says the executive director signed off in this. That’s the person to blame for ineffective management. If they agree to reforms that would be best. Jehochman ^Talk 21:28, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. I think it is inappropriate to seek to affect someone's career in this way. The proposal also blurs the lines of demarcation between community and Office responsibility that we are trying to better delineate. Finally, we are not in a position to evaluate to what extent any particular individual is responsible for any misjudgments that may have been made. That being said, as an attempt at a bit of a fresh start, the WMF might wish to consider asking a different individual to speak on the Office's behalf to the communities on these issues from now on. Newyorkbrad (talk) 21:48, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Strong oppose—the WMF finally has a real person post something instead of that stupid role account and this is your response? Though the responses are the same tone-wise between the two accounts, it’s still significant that the WMF is letting a real person make these statements, and to call for a resignation sends the wrong message. WP:SNOW —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 21:53, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - I don't trust the guy, and he has a previous screw-up with superprotect, but he should get real credit for stepping out from behind the role account, and trying to engage with the community. Right now I'm not sure if heads need to roll, but Eissfeld's is not the first head I'd look at. Tazerdadog (talk) 21:58, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• I don't believe there is enough information for us to properly assess accountability - that should be done by the Executive Director. I would certainly encourage the ED to have a long hard look at how we got to this point.--Mojo Hand (talk) 22:00, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - At least Jan has willingly put his name to the boilerplate. I do believe that Jan should stop giving us boilerplate responces, but barring any further escalation I would rather let WMF deal with it. —A little blue Bori v^_^v ^Bori! 22:01, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. I'm not, by a long shot, defending his handling of it. But it's a very big deal to talk about ending someone's employment. Ban an editor from Wikipedia, and you've just ended one of that person's hobbies. Fire someone from their job, and they might face any number of real life emergencies. For all we know, someone higher in the WMF is the one who really screwed this up, and this younger staff member is getting thrown under the bus. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:02, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. The ED, on the other hand....71.86.140.226 (talk) 22:04, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, he's not the highest in the chain of command here. Ultimately, responsibility for this lies with the ED, and responsibility for holding her to account rests with our community Board of Trustees members. And them, we have every right to hold accountable come election time. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 22:07, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. While I share some concerns regarding Jan Eissfeldt in his role as T&S lead manager I do not think that it is helpful to ask for him to resign (or anyone else working for the WMF). It is the job of the WMF board of trustees to sort out this mess and to find a path forward. I also find the delay quite unfortunate but we should take into consideration that some time is required to organize meetings with people who are living across the globe in very different timezones. And given the complexity of this case, more than one meeting is possibly needed to give it due consideration. Some status updates would be appreciated, though. --AFBorchert (talk) 22:11, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - Jan has posted as much as he can, or at least as much as he is willing to. I applaud him for his continued efforts to engage with the community in the face of such a shockingly inappropriate reaction on our part - personal attacks, attempted outing of a victim of alleged harassment, and a completely uncompromising attitude. If I were in his position, I would want to interact with such a group as little as possible. It is very reassuring, however, to see the vast majority of the community standing up against this proposal. -- Ajraddatz (talk) 22:22, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose unless he signed off on this on his own. Looking at the chain of command here though, he probably didn't. We don't know who did, and - you know what - I'm willing to bet we probably never will. I do wonder, though, after SuperProtect, whether Jan is actually the human shield that the WMF is throwing at the community to attempt to deflect their own bullshit. If so, I actually have some sympathy for him. Black Kite (talk) 22:30, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose at the present time. Shearonink (talk) 23:44, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Vermont, Randy, and several others. Such a proposal only strengthens the argument that we are not capable of having a measured and proportional response and dialogue with the foundation to press for responsible self-governance and to resolve critical issues affecting our community. Mkdw ^talk 23:54, 24 June 2019 (UTC)
• Conditionally oppose I strongly sympathize with what Newyorkbrad has said. But with that, Jan must admit that he has made some serious mistakes (superprotect, and now this), and honestly I think that his statements on behalf of WMF are pouring gasoline on the fire and that there are others better apt to make them. --Rschen7754 00:25, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
• Pointless They didn't give a damn what the community thought when they took action, and took action at dewp, what makes you think they will give a damn what we think now? All I could do is hand in my bit because I don't want to be the mop boy if they want to treat us all as surfs, so that is what I did. They obviously do not care what the community thinks. This has been shown over and over, it is just this time it is slightly more brazen. Dennis Brown - 2¢ 00:34, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support, though oppose as written. Ask for resignation (or symbolic demotion) of all involved. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:39, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose As the chart for how a ban is enacted lays out the WMF as an organization is responsible for this action. So, the WMF as an organization needs to take responsibility for fixing this problem. Barkeep49 (talk) 01:05, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose - Whilst Jan's responses so far have been less than satisfactory I genuinely applaud them for atleast having the balls to come here under their own name unlike the rest of the T&S team, I also don't agree with someone losing their job over this. –Davey2010^Talk 01:10, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose and SNOW close I'm actually pleased with some aspects of his response, coming out under his own name and giving something more than boilerplate. We should focus discussion on less unrealistic and antagonising proposals. – Teratix ₵ 01:47, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose This is a really, really bad idea and I endorse Ajraddatz's analysis. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:52, 25 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose mainly per Ajraddatz - it is a systems issue and at least he made an attempt to communicate. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 01:59, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

RE: Another proposal for work stoppage

This is a comment to those suggesting that ignoring or not doing part of our 'job' is somehow wishing harm on the project. It's called a strike. You stop working during a strike. Does it cause harm when pilots strike and someone can't get to their family's funeral? Yes, but we don't blame the pilots for not wanting to fly the planes. Does it cause harm when actors refuse to act? A lot of people get joy out of movies and TV, so the argument could be made, but we don't blame Actors for it. This isn't something as vital as keeping someone alive or preventing crime. This is a single webpage on the internet. It's okay. You can strike. You aren't a bad person for striking. 2001:4898:80E8:9:8982:6499:5069:211A (talk) 23:17, 25 June 2019 (UTC)

Also, more to the point, this is a website, not a factory full of machinery. Worst case scenario if a bunch of people stop editing is some easily reverted vandalism. Jtrainor (talk) 18:56, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

No, it is a far worse scenario than that - copyrights, BLP issues, the collapse of sensitive topic areas into a mass of warring edits (eg: my speciality of caste, which implodes very quickly and few people know how to fix). - Sitush (talk) 09:19, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps air traffic is not the best way to sell this idea. Wnt (talk) 16:20, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

Trust person

I created this RfC on meta: m:Requests for comment/WMF-community trust person. WMF peoples have been following that and may be interested.

In order to move forward, more input is needed. - Alexis Jazz 08:04, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

Interesting stuff

A platform, comprising Blog and Discuss hubs, that will serve as a single hub of coordination among movement organizers, affiliates, contributors, partners and the Foundation. ∯WBG^converse 12:44, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

There’s so many mentions of "safe space" on that page it's going to be very difficult not to draw some conclusions. Triptothecottage (talk) 13:10, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm actually more concerned by it because I get the feeling that's the setup of rules (the rules are generally okay, it's the implementation that's concerning) and enforcement that they want to make common across all wikipedias. Nosebagbear (talk) 19:20, 27 June 2019 (UTC)