Talk:Antisemitism

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I think the primary description gives liberalism a bit too much credit

Historically, antisemitism have existed in just about every liberal government with little to no opposition or concern until after WW2. And even at that point it was due to some rather self serving motives in a lot of instances. To equate the interests of Jewish people with one singular ideology that has for most of its history persecuted and excluded Jews is pretty revisionistic. I understand that liberalism is the modern day status quo, and as such it influences popular assumptions about history. But prior to the holocaust, the hotbeds of antisemitism was places like France, England and even Canada. These were all liberal governments, and antisemitism was far from an opposition to their liberal values. Liberal values include borders, visa requirements, travel restrictions, migrant politics, and numerous other things that are incredibly harmful - and often times deadly - to any diasporic people. Whether Jews, Roma, or refugees who were once settled.

It feels a bit propagandistic, and presents this idea that liberals can't be antisemities. In spite of how some of the biggest antisemities in history were liberals, including Tsar Alexander II and Henry Ford. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.69.180.157 (talk) 15:40, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

EDIT:

Also I didn't notice the Americans bickering here. For clarification: I'm in Europe, when we say liberalism we refer to the politics often framed by enlightenment era philosophy. This includes what is colloquially referred to as conservatives and democrats in the US. So I'm not taking a side there, this is in fact aimed at both sides and those who represent similar politics in Europe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.69.180.157 (talk) 15:43, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Many of us would dispute the suggestion that Tsar Alexander II and Henry Ford were liberals. Irrespective, the above is purely unsourced original research. If you can find a reliable source that make these claims, then please bring it here for discussion. Without any source, this cannot (and will not) be included in the article. RolandR (talk) 15:23, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

It's not exactly a full takedown of liberalism, but at least in some countries the rise of liberalism brought with it an antisemitic zeitgeist History_of_the_Jews_in_Romania#1860s_and_1870s has several citations to sources backing up the prevalence of antisemitism among the Romanian liberal intelligentsia of the 19th century. I would expect that similar sources could be found for other countries as well. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 18:50, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry, you need evidence of that Europe was antisemitic? Remember those countries I mentioned before? Ever read about their stance on Jewish refugees in the 1930s? Liberalism was useless for people who tried to escape the holocaust. British media published headlines such as Hurrah for the blackshirts! and made every effort to antagonise and abuse Jewish people just in the exact same way they're treating refugees today, and this all happened with liberal migration policy. Here, the washington post: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2015/11/17/what-americans-thought-of-jewish-refugees-on-the-eve-of-world-war-ii/?noredirect=on

Fewer than 5 percent of Americans surveyed at the time believed that the United States should raise its immigration quotas or encourage political refugees fleeing fascist states in Europe

Just first result, this is common knowledge for most people interested in history. There's an obvious whitewashing of liberalism's history of antisemitism here, and it's very much akin to holocaust denial, since the antisemitism of liberal countries directly condemned millions of Jews into death camps.

And in fact I got more, the philosophical architects of liberalism itself were antisemites. In the Natural History of Religion, David Hume writes that Jews are inferiour to Christians. Voltarie believed Jews were the direct descendants from Adam and Eve, and therefore called them adamites, and he described them as infecting Europe, which is the same kind of antisemitic rhetoric that existed throughout Europe after the enlightenment era in several liberal countries, and thus can be described as a liberal value. Same with Emmanuel Kant, who could be argued was the key philosopher for the liberal moral framework next to John Locke, also believed Jewish people were inferiour due to immutable traits passed on by birth.

Sources: Michael Mack Phd, Cambridge University, New York Times And Richard Popkin The Philosophical Bases of Modern Racism

The very roots of liberalism is steeped in antisemitism and may very well have influenced modern day antisemitism. How's that for poorly researched? Update: In my research I also found this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3ADavid_Hume#Missing_anti-semitism_section So even wikipedia itself has liberal antisemities going around censoring articles like some sort of antisemitic nerd mafia.

Addendum: Since I will not rest until this matter is resolved, I will add more and more research here as I find it, and today I will discuss the effect the US had on antisemitism in Nazi Germany. According to Hitler's American Model: The United States and the Making of Nazi Race Law by James Q Whitman, Princeton University. the US government, a liberal government, had no qualms what so ever with helping the Nazis develop the archetecture of discrimination and dehumanisation that then permitted them to persecute Jewish people. In Great Britain, Jewish people were placed in London's East End. This was an act of segregation, and the East End was known for its poverty, social strife and police abuses. The east end was a ghetto for Jewish people in the 1900s and upwards, even today the East End is stigmatised as a bad part of town. Now is rounding Jewish people up and putting them in ghettos an act of antisemitism or not? My source? Wikipedia itself says so.

The area was notorious for its deep poverty, overcrowding and associated social problems. This led to the East End's history of intense political activism and association with some of the country's most influential social reformers. Another major theme of East End history has been migration, both inward and outward. The area had a strong pull on the rural poor from other parts of England, and attracted waves of migration from further afield, notably Huguenot refugees, who created a new extramural suburb in Spitalfields in the 17th century,[1] Irish weavers,[2] Ashkenazi Jews,[3] and, in the 20th century, Sylheti Bangladeshis.[4]

Is segregating Jews into ghettos only antisemitism when non liberals do it, or will you start reporting the facts responsibly? Also, my proposal here is that we change it from saying it's the opposite of liberal values, which is outright propaganda. Into something more unbiased and true, to say that it is against egalitarian values. Thereby recognising people and thinkers from all ends of the political spectrum who takes the responsibility to treat people fairly, and act with social justice in mind. 78.69.180.157 (talk) 19:03, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

The vast numbers of poverty-stricken East European Jewish migrants presumably settled in East London because it was cheap and they had no money. That behaviour is true of all migrants in all countries in all periods and has little to do with race or religion per se. If you wish changes to the article, I suggest you prepare them in your sandbox and come back to this page to propose them when they have been finalised. Jontel (talk) 13:13, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

You don't have to tell me, I'm Roma. I live in a segregated area right now, among Yugoslavs, Africans and Afghanis. You say this is like some kind of big coincidence, but it seems we're always getting the worser end of the stick. It seems like whenever liberal governments have to choose between racism and economic reform, racism always wins, and then they shrug and claim it's a big coincidence. But coincidences are not patterns that exist throughout history. This is not equal treatment. When the white middle class migrates they're called expats, and get to live in nice places. I don't buy into this excuse, and neither does most of the people you're talking about. The economy is as manmade as the rest of society, and so are its outcomes. Also, like I said, my sole proposal is to change it from Liberal Values into Egalistarian Values I don't think such a simple change requires the sandbox, but rather simply a go ahead. 78.69.180.157 (talk) 19:03, 13 August 2019 (UTC)

NPOV/n discussion on inclusion of Islamophobia/Antisemitism/religious hate in Racism in X articles

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard#Islamophobia, Antisemitism, and other religious hate in "racism in X" articles may be of interest to talk page watchers here. The issue is whether to include Islamophobia, Antisemitism, and other religious hate in Racism in country X articles. Icewhiz (talk) 19:32, 3 August 2019 (UTC)