Talk:Emmett Till

Lynching or just plain murder?

Though this crime is widely described as a lynching this seems to be stretching the term. Vile murder for sure. Perhaps it would be better to be more specific and use some expression like 'murdered in circumstances often described as a lynching.' Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.145.168.247 (talk) 10:06, 8 March 2019 (UTC)

If it "is widely described as a lynching", then that's how we describe it! Surely, the killing does not have all the hallmarks of a 'classic' lynching (large mob doing it very publicly). I would hazard a guess that the term is widely used, because of intent (to send a message and as a punishment for violating social norms).Pincrete (talk) 18:12, 10 March 2019 (UTC)

He was killed in order to send a message. It is definately more than a simple murder. Harry Herpson (talk) 13:38, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

The notion of an 'intention to send a message' is problematic in this case. Since the body was hidden by being sunk in the river, then clearly the actual intention was to cover up what happened rather than to send a message to anyone. Therefore this must strictly-speaking be a murder not a 'lynching' if 'sending a message' is the criterion upon which such a judgment is to be made. But it's an emotive issue, and I'm sure others will disagree and think me unduly pedantic. Cassandra. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.108.173.183 (talk) 16:25, 12 June 2019 (UTC)

I support that it be called murder. Zezen (talk) 20:48, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

"Sending a message" was simply my conjecture as to why RS call it a lynching rather than a plain murder - the point however is that they do call it a lynching, therefore so do we. Pincrete (talk) 21:28, 23 July 2019 (UTC)

Lynching is a specific type of murder. It seems like you're implying that calling it a lynching would somehow justify it or make it seem "less" than a "normal" murder in some people's minds. I don't think that's correct. Ivar the Boneful (talk) 10:07, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Sources call it lynching, so we call it lynching, we already also call it murder like 8 words after lynching for the same reason. This idea that it has to be one or the other makes no sense. But lynching it is because it fits in the all to well traveled mode of extra-judicial retributive 'justice' being meted-out to a lone offender to restore the social status quo (in this case, as in many others, enforcing the color line, here's JW Milam:" "Well, what else could we do? He was hopeless. I'm no bully; I never hurt a n* in my life. I like n*—in their place—I know how to work 'em. But I just decided it was time a few people got put on notice. As long as I live and can do anything about it, n* are gonna stay in their place." . . . ). No one had to find the body to know what message was sent. -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 10:48, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Average income

"Mamie Carthan was born in Tallahatchie County, where the average income per white household in 1949 was $690 ($6,960 in 2016 dollars). For black families, the figure was $462 ($4,660 in 2016 dollars)."

Was this per year or month?

That would be per year. Gandydancer (talk) 14:07, 26 July 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 July 2019

The first sentence states Emmett Till was "lynched". The second paragraph, second to last sentence states, "They took him away and beat and mutilated him before 'shooting' him in the head..." This appears confusing, was he lynched or shot. Most other references state Emmett Hill was was shot. This also causes other references to 'lynch', 'lynched', and 'lynching' to be confusing or misleading regarding Emmett Hill. BK1996 (talk) 13:14, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Not done. The sources use lynched. There are many ways to lynch someone -- anyway someone may be killed, hurt, or harmed can be used. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:58, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

BK1996 Please read Lynching for a definition, it even talks about why some consider hanging the only way in which it could occur.Naraht (talk) 01:47, 22 August 2019 (UTC)

Bryant Grocery Pictures

@Deisenbe:: Hi. Can you give any more information on

. Is it some kind of reconstruction and by who? Also, it looks very different from this 2019 article:[1] and the earlier picture

2009

Alanscottwalker (talk) 21:32, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I have the same question. The historical marker is there so I'm sure it's the right place, and it's the only establishment except for a fire station on the main road in Money, which is tiny. The gas pumps say 28.9¢. deisenbe (talk) 21:46, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I feel certain that the photo is not correct because this building bears no resemblance to the store, which was BTW a two-story building with the owners living upstairs. Here's a good pic: [2] Gandydancer (talk) 22:25, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Bit of a mystery then, for some reason I have a recollection that there was a gas station across the street (where Curtis Jones was playing checkers?) but that's just a guess. Should we take it out for now? Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:45, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

Deisenbe, I think I found it [3] it is next to the store and was reconstructed. The Wiki Commons description should be changed, right? -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:59, 29 August 2019 (UTC)

I'll update it if you give me a day. This was on the west side of the road. Was Bryant's also on the west side? I saw nothing of the severely damaged original building, I wonder if it was beyond repair and demolished. deisenbe (talk) 00:54, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Well, in late summer it's apparently covered in kudzu vines, so as to be almost unrecognizable. [4] -- Alanscottwalker (talk) 02:37, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

We need the story on what has happened. There was no kudzu-covered anything on Aug 11 when I was there. deisenbe (talk) 12:07, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

The gas station is a few yards south of the remains of the grocery store, both on the west side of the road. The current Google street view photograph is from October 2009, but shows both buildings.[5]Mighty Antar (talk) 12:28, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

This is apparently how it looked May 2018:

2018

. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:45, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Also, compare these two pictures of the sign with the remains of the store in the background

2013

2018

. You could contact the heritage group that Pincrete gave you a link for to ask about it, but nothing should stand in the way of us correcting the gas station picture's identification, thanks. Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:14, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

More info: "'They just want history to die:' Owners demand $4 million for crumbling Emmett Till store". The Clarion Ledger. August 29, 2018. Retrieved 2019-08-30. Alanscottwalker (talk) 19:58, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Other gallery pictures

While we are on the subject, I question the usefulness of some of the other pics in the gallery eg: "Minuscule sign, at left, pointing to Emmett Till Historic Intrepid Center, Glendora, Mississippi, 2019". And yes, if the gas station pic is only nearby (as seems to be the case), I don't think it adds anything to the article. Pincrete (talk) 13:05, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I have no objection to trimming. So, as to keep things straight note the "Interpretive Center" [6] (Sumner) is different from the "Intrepid Center" [7] (Glendora). Alanscottwalker (talk) 14:38, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

• 
  Emmett Till Memorial Highway, US 49E, Tutwiler, Mississippi, 2019
• 
  Minuscule sign, at left, pointing to Emmett Till Historic Intrepid Center, Glendora, Mississippi, 2019
• 
  Emmett Till Historic Intrepid Center, Glendora, Mississippi, 2019
• 
  Glendora Gin. Sign outside Emmett Till Historic Intrepid Center, Glendora, Mississippi, 2019
• 
  Sign identifying site of house of J.W. Milam, near Glendora Gin, 2019. Milam was one of the two that murdered Emmett Till.
• 
  Sign at location of killing of Clinton Mellon, violent act related to Emmett Till's murder, 2019
• 
  The reconstructed Ben Roy Service Station that stood next to the grocery store where Till encountered Bryant in Money, Mississippi, 2019

I agree that the "minuscule" one could be removed. BTW, wondering who Clinton Mellon was I found this [8] It's very interesting and here are a couple of quotes from that article that I suppose Southerners would recognize right away but Northerners (like me) would not understand till it is explained to them. It is quite chilling to think about.

"Kimball’s story would be hard for any jury to believe, because they would know…. “[You] cannot provoke a Negro attendant to talk like that no matter how much you irritate him, particularly a trusted Negro such as Clinton Melton.”

"The jury also knew that “no white peckerwood gin manager, the best friend of J. W. Milam, would let a Negro talk like that without doing a little whupping right there on the spot.” Gandydancer (talk) 14:52, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I have removed the minuscule one and updated the captions. Alanscottwalker (talk) 20:01, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

Money, Mississippi, 2019. Facing south.

deisenbe (talk) 23:48, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

References

Recent edit reverted: recantation

I just reverted a series of edits by Ekpyros (as well as subsequent edits by Flyer22 Reborn and Pincrete) about Carolyn Bryant's recantation (or not). The edits struck me as heavily POV, with lots of use of weasel wording. The edits by Flyer22 Reborn and Pincrete both identified issues with the edits, as well. It didn't seem to me like the large problems were fixable on a small scale, hence the blanket revert. I have no particular expertise or knowledge on this question, and I am hoping that by starting this discussion I can encourage other editors to find an appropriate way to incorporate any recent developments. --JBL (talk) 18:43, 29 September 2019 (UTC)

Carolyn Bryant

According to this article Carolyn indicated she did not recant her testimony and furthermore Tyson did not record her saying that. Should this be discussed? https://www.kcentv.com/article/news/nation-now/bombshell-quote-missing-from-emmett-till-tape-so-did-carolyn-bryant-donham-really-recant/465-2ebc47a7-bfed-4397-a78a-6b5459d16af0 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:B491:49C0:110E:7DB4:5A2C:F37D (talk) 23:27, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

Carolyn Bryant claims she has a bad memory. This is very convenient.