Talk:Swaminarayan Sampradaya

Schismatic groups

I would want to know as to the following of each in terms of numbers. Its important as if the following is the same then the views should be represented equally. Wikidās ॐ 08:25, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Title

Name does not sound right. I propose it be moved to either Swaminarayan Faith or Succession of Swaminarayan. Wheredevelsdare (talk) 14:09, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I like Swaminarayan Faith    Juthani1   ^tcs 19:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You can look up on how exactly this works with other groups. I think a good example is Bahá'í Faith article. Its featured and can used as an example to where to go from here. Wikidās ॐ 20:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

 Done - Wheredevelsdare (talk) 22:19, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Should "Faith" and/or "Sect" in the title be capitalized? I could be wrong, but it seems to me that only Swaminarayan should be capitalized, since "faith" is not the only formal term used for the tradition, and is used for the article to make the distinction between the faith and the religious leader. --Shruti14 ^{t c s} 16:00, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Around The Globe^{सत्यमेव जयते} 15:59, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

I agree from what I read this may be blasphemous to Hinduism. BAPS financing is also not clear whether this is a commercial enterprise or a genuine religious organization. This is worship of the person swaminarayan just like sai baba who is inspired by muslim influences and some people still consider Hinduism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.49.150.167 (talk) 00:07, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Denomination?

Is the Swaminarayan faith considered Shaivism, Shaktism, Vaishnavism, or Smartha? Sylvain1972 (talk) 17:07, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

It is considered a denomination of vaishnavism by most, however some believe it is a denomination of its own    World   ^tcs 20:15, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

I think the intro should characterize it as Swaminarayan Vaishnavism or Swaminarayan Vaishnavist Hinduism then. As a westerner having delved into the topic of Hinduism, I agree with the Indic sentiment that there is not really a religion called "Hinduism", but since most westerners use to believe there is, the "Hinduism" (similar to Abrahamite) may still be retained. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 22:31, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

See my comment above, that's the only problem with doing that ^The World 12:38, 13 April 2010 (UTC)

This should be a denomination on its own — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.171.129.133 (talk) 06:35, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

It is a sub-denomination within Vaishnava Hinduism, much like Gaudiya Vaishnavism (ISKCON sect). The present title doesn't really make sense since it's not its own brand of Hinduism; rather, it is a sect of subsect within Hinduism. It would be more appropriate to move the article back to its previous name of Swaminarayan faith or Swaminarayan sect. Or perhaps it could be renamed to something like Swaminarayan (sect) to indicate that its name is Swaminarayan (and not Swaminarayan Faith, as in the case of the Baha'i Faith, but that it is a faith community as distinguished from Swaminarayan the spiritual leader who is the founder of the faith group. --Shruti14 ^{talk • sign} 01:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned references in Swaminarayan Faith

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of Swaminarayan Faith's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "isbn8170247985":

• From Shikshapatri: M. G. Chitkara (1997). Hindutva. APH. Retrieved March 26, 2009. Page 230
• From Desh Vibhag Lekh: M. G. Chitkara (1997). Hindutva. APH. Retrieved March 26, 2009. Page 228
• From Shri Swaminarayan Mandir, Vadtal: M. G. Chitkara (1997). Hindutva. APH. pp. 227–228. Retrieved June 10, 2009.
• From Vachanamrut: M. G. Chitkara (1997). Hindutva. APH. p. 228. Retrieved June 13, 2009.
• From Swaminarayan Sampraday: M. G. Chitkara (1997). Hindutva. APH. p. 230. Retrieved June 17, 2009.

Reference named "isbn8120606515":

• From Premanand Swami: Behramji Merwanji Malabari, Krishnalal M. Jhaveri, Malabari M. B (1997). Gujarat and the Gujaratis. Asian Educational Services. ISBN 8120606515. Retrieved May 21, 2009.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Page 241
• From Swaminarayan: Behramji Merwanji Malabari, Krishnalal M. Jhaveri, Malabari M. B (1997). Gujarat and the Gujaratis. Asian Educational Services. ISBN 8120606515. Retrieved May 7, 2009.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Page 263 - 269
• From Swaminarayan Sampraday: Behramji Merwanji Malabari, Krishnalal M. Jhaveri, Malabari M. B (1997). Gujarat and the Gujaratis. Asian Educational Services. ISBN 8120606515. Retrieved May 7, 2009.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) Page 241-242

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 10:24, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/145565 laxmikant (talk) 03:00, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

New information

Keeping in mind some information has been transplanted here from Swaminarayan, the article now gives information on both the Faith (or belief) and Succession. Should the article title be changed to reflect the same - Swaminarayan Faith and Succession or Swaminarayan Hinduism? Around The Globe^{सत्यमेव जयते} 10:43, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

I strongly agree. The name of the article must reflect the information. I think Swaminarayan Hinduism would be a suitable name. Swaminarayan Faith and Succession, to me at least, feels like there is a bit of repetition. The faith includes succession, if you see what I mean. World (talk • contributions) 18:34, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Sources

There are a number of academic and journalistic sources that provide an (at times highly critical) analysis of the evolution and social function of the faith. These should be covered in this article, and some use of the would be essential, should it be nominated at any future stage for Good Article status:

• Rohit Barot, 'Religion, migration and wealth creation in the Swaminarayan Movement', in Bryceson, Deborah and Ulla Vuorela (eds), The Transnational Family".
• Rohit Barot has written books that would also prbably touch on the subject and should be checked at some stage.
• David Hardiman, "Class base of Swaminarayan sect", Economic and Political Weekly, 10 September 1988 (subscription needed, or library access)
• Makrand Mehta, controversial article in the Gujarati-language journal of the Centre for Social Studies, Surat, 1986

Suggestions

nn

• "The Swaminarayan faith has a large percentage of Hindus who are followers of Swaminarayan." what how it mean? Are there non-Hindu Swaminarayans?
• "India, Britain, and the United States." Form sentences. A section on distribution of Swaminarayan Hindus is necessary
• Instead of having a section titled "Succession of Swaminarayan", I suggest a layout of:
  • "Common beliefs"
  • Common History: who is Swaminarayan? Sampradaya and reason of schisms
  • Separate sections on each sect within S.Hinduism. Highlight differences in philosophies, succession etc. A short history of each within the sect section. Chief Temples and leaders by each sect. Organization of each sect.
    • Swaminarayan Sampraday
    • BAPS
    • et al
  • Relations of the schisms (approval/criticism of each other etc.)

--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:44, 31 August 2009 (UTC)

The Swaminarayan faith can be considered an "original" work by wikipedia standards as Hinduism already has an established collection of authentic books. remove swaminarayan from wikipedia hindu references as per wikipedia standards please and also other faiths like sai baba and iskcon claiming to be hindu faiths . please

Swaminarayan and ISKCON are established, widely recognized faith communities that are sub-denominations of Vaishnavism, which itself is a major denomination of Hinduism. Thus they are not merely 'claiming to be hindu faiths' as you say. They are actually validly classified as part of Hinduism and recognized as such by scholars, legal systems, and governments. --Shruti14 ^{talk • sign} 01:47, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia standards are based on reliable sources and there are sources that clearly point to both ISKCON and Swaminarayan being recognized and widely accepted subgroups within Vaishnavism which itself is one of the major branches of the Hindu faith. --Shruti14 ^{talk • sign} 01:56, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

The Gunatit Samaj edits by Apollo1203 and Moksha88 are factually incorrect and the "reputable" sources are one-sided thus they are not reputable. Reputable accounts can be found on gunatitjyot.org and kakaji.org as they consider points of views from all parties who are involved with the discussion of the Gunait Samaj.

Name change & lede

Name change given for reasons mentioned above - it does not make sense to call the article 'Swaminarayan Hinduism' since that is not an official name for it and frankly it is not some special brand of Hinduism. More properly it is a spiritual tradition within the Vaishnava major sect of Hinduism. It is also not known as Swaminarayan Faith officially (akin to Baha'i Faith) nor is it officially known as the Swaminarayan Sect. Its name is simply Swaminarayan. Changed the title of the article accordingly, with a parenthetical explanation that this is a spiritual tradition to distinguish from the spiritual leader with the same name who is the founder of the sect whose biographical article also bears the name Swaminarayan. Also edited the lede to clarify that this is a branch of Vaishnava Hinduism. --Shruti14 ^{talk • sign} 01:55, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

https://indiankanoon.org/doc/145565 it is not Hinduism at all, it is business. laxmikant (talk) 03:02, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Hinduism

Please remove references to Hinduism in this article. This sect is already falsely claiming to be the largest Hindu temple. Please stop misinformation if you believe in a God. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.55.34.248 (talk) 12:21, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

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Fan POV Tag

WP:Conachieve can you please explain why this tag was placed? There has not been a discussion about this tag.Treehugger8891 (talk) 02:08, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

@Treehugger8891:, agreed. I'm tagging @Harshil169: to explain the reasoning. Moksha88 (talk) 21:47, 2 October 2019 (UTC)

Moksha88 If someone is reading article then it can be clearly understandable that it’s written from point of view from person who follows it. On Wikipedia, articles related to religion must adhere NPOV and secondary and tertiary sources which critically examine one religion. Also, many details in the article is unnecessary for common person who just want to know about tradition but it may be necessary for fan/follower of sect. The article has systematic bias and thus, I’ve tshged this. Thanks— Harshil ^{want to talk?} 02:10, 3 October 2019 (UTC)

Merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The result of this discussion was to merge.

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This article needs to be merged with Swaminarayan. Editor2020 (talk) 03:13, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Editor2020, I agree that this article should be merged though would like to suggest another article. This refers to the tradition founded by Swaminarayan. Just as there are separate articles for the founders of other faiths and the faith itself, I don’t think these articles should be merged. Instead, this article should be merged with the Swaminarayan Sampraday article. After a close review, the majority of scholarly sources use Swaminarayan Sampraday to refer to all the groups within this tradition (1). Some of the content in this article also duplicates what exists in the current Swaminarayan Sampraday article as noted by others. Moksha88 (talk) 04:21, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Yes, you are correct. This article should be merged with Swaminarayan Sampraday. Editor2020 (talk) 04:25, 18 December 2019 (UTC)

Editor2020, let me study these articles a bit more to identify how best to make the merger happen. I will then draft up an outline in my sandbox of steps moving forward. Moksha88 (talk) 03:55, 19 December 2019 (UTC)

Editor2020, here's my suggested merger (1). If you agree, can you change the merge tags that you've currently placed to reflect the suggested merger? Per WP:PM, I will also invite other editors in the Swaminarayan Wikiproject for discussion given the complexity of the task at hand. Moksha88 (talk) 03:06, 20 December 2019 (UTC)

I don't believe I set any tags, just this mention on the Talk page. Editor2020 (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2019 (UTC)

Editor2020, my mistake. I added the tags to all the pages. Please let me know if they look alright: Swaminarayan Sampraday, Swaminarayan (spiritual tradition)‎, Nar Narayan Dev Gadi, and Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi. Thank you. Moksha88 (talk) 03:05, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

Looking good. Editor2020 (talk) 03:16, 23 December 2019 (UTC)

I came across this discussion on the wiki project. I agree with the proposed merger. However I feel we should move the 'Temples' section from the Sampraday article into the List of Swaminarayan Temples article.Actionjackson09 (talk) 12:18, 24 December 2019 (UTC)

Thank you Moksha88 for posting on the Wikiproject page regarding this merge. I, too, agree on this merge and it also seems logical to move 'Temples' from the Swaminarayan Sampradaya article to "List of Swaminarayan Temples" article. Apollo1203 (talk) 15:21, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

Actionjackson09 & Apollo1203, I think that makes sense and will adjust the tag accordingly. Moksha88 (talk) 19:42, 25 December 2019 (UTC)

In reviewing the Sampraday article, there's a significant amount of content lacking scholarly sources along with original research. I will begin posting excerpts on my sandbox (1) which need to be verified and/or rewritten and would appreciate both of your help. I will make these edits after I merge to avoid confusing content. Moksha88 (talk) 02:32, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

On closer review, I think 'Organization Structure' from the Sampraday article is best suited for articles dedicated to each of the diocese. I have revised the structure accordingly. Moksha88 (talk) 03:39, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Hey everyone, came across this conversation after I joined the Swaminarayan wikiproject. Thanks to (talk) for succinctly visualizing what sections from the spiritual tradition would merge into the main page under. I happen to also think that this merge should happen and agree with the editor above that the 'Temples" section should be in the list of swaminarayan temples article. The organizations within the swaminarayan sampraday should also encompass the bit about the gunatit samaj from the spiritual traditions page. If you have not done so, review the chart on Moksha88's sandbox. I believe this grouping is the best for this proposed merge. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 04:19, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

I appreciate everyone's input. As this discussion has been ongoing for at least 7 days and we have unanimous consensus to move forward, I will close this thread and begin the merger. Thank you Editor2020 for starting this process. Actionjackson09, Apollo1203, ThaNDNman224, we will need to do a lot of verifying and copy editing in the coming days.

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 31 December 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Page moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Jerm (talk) 15:55, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

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Swaminarayan (spiritual tradition) → Swaminarayan Sampradaya – Based on my research and the n-gram result, I am requesting to move the current article, to change the title to Swaminarayan Sampradaya as it is more appropriate. Apollo1203 (talk) 08:21, 31 December 2019 (UTC) —Relisting.  — Amakuru (talk) 12:37, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

I supporting moving the article as it reflects scholarly consensus (1). In merging the pages, I didn't realize I couldn't simply rename the page and would have suggested merging in the opposite direction. Tagging Editor2020, Actionjackson09, ThaNDNman224 for comment. Moksha88 (talk) 18:07, 31 December 2019 (UTC)

Looking at the previous comments I believe that the move and name change is warranted. Not sure where the "spiritual tradition" originated but it's not in line with other religious wikis here. It makes sense to me to change the title to what the editor above has said. I'd welcome any editors who have another opinion to chime in though! ThaNDNman224 (talk) 17:34, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Gunatit Samaj

The Gunatit Samaj edits by Apollo1203 and Moksha88 are factually incorrect and the "reputable" sources are one-sided thus they are not reputable. Reputable accounts can be found on gunatitjyot.org and kakaji.org as they consider points of views from all parties who are involved with the discussion of the Gunait Samaj. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C5:4293:D801:3825:56ED:593F:8259 (talk) 14:29, 19 February 2020 (UTC)

Those are primary sources are do not meet the criteria for reliable sources as per WP:RS. Moksha88 (talk) 06:39, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

Swaminarayan Mandir Vasna Sanstha: Notability

@Apollo1203: I saw you removed the section on the Swaminarayan Mandir Vasna Sanstha here from 'Major Branches' but reinserted it until you could explain your reasoning as per WP:ORGCRIT. Moksha88 (talk) 06:38, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

@Moksha88: I've removed the branch from the article as there is only 1 secondary source cited to the group. According to ORGCRIT, the subject needs significant sources to be viable. If you can find additional secondary sources besides the one that was cited, it can be added back into the article. Apollo1203 (talk) 03:18, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

@Apollo1203: You're right, there's not much to support the notability of this organization, only Raymond Williams's 2001 book and a brief mention in Gordan Melton's paper. While there are other newspaper articles referenced in the Swaminarayan Mandir Vasna Sanstha article, the depth of coverage is not significant. Moksha88 (talk) 17:20, 5 May 2020 (UTC)

Humanitarian Service

@Kbhatt22: Your recent edits on the humanitarian service section list world records held by the Laxmi Narayan Dev Yuvak Mandal which to my knowledge is not a registered charitable organization. I think it is appropriate to limit this section to charitable organizations of the Swaminarayan sampradaya in an effort to keep this article focused as per WP:FALSEBALANCE. Additionally, the source “golden book of world records” seems dubious at least according to the editor in chief of India Book of Records (https://indiabookofrecords.in/fraudrecordbooks/) see, WP:QUESTIONABLE and its use here seems to promote the “golden book of world records” more than the activities of the Laxmi Narayan Dev Yuvak Mandal which is not a Wikipedia best practice WP:NOTPROMOTION. At the very least, I think we should 1) focus on the humanitarian activity and not the record, or 2) if the Laxmi Narayan Dev Yuvak Mandal is not a registered charitable organization, then I think these edits should be removed. Thoughts anyone?Harshmellow717 (talk) 01:41, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

@Harshmellow717: You make a great point and I agree with you. I think it would be better if it was kept out as well. Apollo1203 (talk) 18:42, 8 May 2020 (UTC)

Looking at the edit, I don’t think the criteria for WP:RS is met. @Kbhatt22:, do you have another reliable source to vouch for the work done? There is consensus here that the material doesn't adhere to a core policy, so I will remove it for now until you can provide a better reference. Moksha88 (talk) 03:03, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Harshmellow717: @Moksha88: This was already discussed on Apollo's talk page 2 days ago and the change was added back in. The Indian book of world records is not a registered entity and only existed for a few years as a competitor and that is not a reliable source. The source you are referencing is an opinion article from a smaller competitor record company. The Golden Book of Records is a registered publisher in India. They are recognized by another Indian entity http://www.worldrecordholdersclub.com/ http://www.worldrecordholdersclub.com/?p=339

This is another registered publisher recognizing their work. The Indian Book of Records(your citation) is another private record book holder only in existence since 2006 that in the article you listed is simply trying to downplay other record holder companies within India. Here is another article legitimizing Golden Book of World Records: https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/international-yoga-day-2018-yoga-guru-baba-ramdev-world-records-rajasthan-kota-vasundhara-raje-acharya-balkrishna-rac-ground-guinness-golden-book/243582 https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/2-501-blood-tests-in-6-hours-madhya-pradesh-ngo-sets-new-world-record-1813105

Both Times Now and NDTV are legitimate news networks who cover world records tracked by Golden Book of World Records. I think there is no reason to question their source material.

Adding another national level news company's (Times of India) coverage of tracking done by Golden Book of World Records: https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/tv/news/hindi/roadies-11-contestant-navjyot-gurudutta-registered-among-the-list-of-worlds-top-100-influencing-sikh/articleshow/75434744.cms

Many big Indian media networks work with and cite Golden Book of World records honors. I don't think the Indian Book of Records is a legitimate source as they are a competitor with bias in the matter. Times of India, NDTV, and Times Now News have all used Golden Book of World Records as reference material. This meats Wikipedias source policy as it is used by

The focus is on the humanitarian efforts of 21,900 eye donations. They registered a world record which is documented proof that was simply used as citation. The Laxmi-Narayan Dev Yuvak Mandal is a registered entity of SVG Charity which is a 401c registered non-profit in the United States (http://www.swaminarayanvadtalgadi.org/charity/) but instead of using their official site as a source, i used an independent recognized record tracking company. Laxmi-narayan dev yuvak mandal is also the offical acting youth charity entity of the Vadtal gadi so does not trip the False Balance policy I believe.

@Kbhatt22: Please do not add any material for which consensus has not been reached. Doing so can be seen as being disruptive editing. For the time being, I have moved it to my sandbox where we can work on it together. Harshmellow717 (talk) 02:53, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

@Harshmellow717: Understood. I assumed all concerns were addressed in revisions but will keep this in mind for future.

@Harshmellow717: Where is you're sandbox?

@Kbhatt22:, I agree with your move to the sandbox for us to all review. Please make sure you include a link to your sandbox next time. @Kbhatt22:, there are several problems with this edit. First, the section is entitled, "Humanitarian Service, which is nested under "Influence on Society." In the edit you included, the focus should be on the actual donations because it is an example of the humanitarian activity which has impacted society. By emphasizing the Golden Book of Records, the service is considered a promotional activity, so I proposed a simpler version which integrates the details at the end of the prior paragraph. The policy WP:NOTPROMO is very clear here, and promotional matter lowers the quality of the article. In this past, this article was tagged for not having encyclopedic material. If you do want to include those details, I think you should cite them in the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi article. For example, BAPS Charities has more details in the BAPS article than this article which focuses on the entire Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Also, please make sure to sign your comments as it becomes very difficult to identify who is who. Moksha88 (talk) 03:29, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kbhatt22: I agree with what @Harshmellow717: and @Moksha88: have outlined above. I think it would be best to move those details to the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi article.Apollo1203 (talk) 03:42, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

@Apollo1203: ::@Moksha88: ::@Harshmellow717: I agree with all the points all 3 of you mentioned. My concern is the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi article doesn't have a dedicated humanitarian service section and doesn't need it for 1 line. I saw that the following line was posted in that section: "Following the devastating earthquake in Gujarat in 2001, they rebuilt 15 villages and neighborhoods and 39 schools. For its work, BAPS has been granted consultative status with the Economic and Social Council of the United Nations" I tried to use a similar format to list the humanitarian service, eye donations, and then the source, golden book of world records. If that is a promotion violation, is the reference to the Social Council not also a promotion of that independent entity? How does this format sound "In 2013, under the guidance of Vadtal Acharya Ajendraprasadji Maharaj, Laxmi-Narayan Dev Yuvak Mandal registered 21,900 eye donations in one hour in an organ donation charity drive as well as the most body donations to medical sciences and studies with 352 registrants in a 12 hour window." It removes the text about record and company (only used as citation) designating the record but at this point there is no reason to question Golden book of world records as it is constantly used by 3 major news networks across India and recognized as a valid record tracking company by NDTV, Times of India, etc. I can see where my wording sem promotional so I simplified it. My concern with putting this in the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi article is that it is not enough to warrant a dedicated section. On the swaminarayan sampraday page, we have a section this fits in, and the service is by the Vadtal Diocese which is a large size group in the swaminarayan sampraday. Thank all 3 of you for the help. (talk) 05:42, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kbhatt22: The sentence on BAPS focuses on the work that specifically influenced society in the wake of a natural disaster. The inclusion of the UN is appropriate here because they are involved in humanitarian efforts that impact society. Additionally, it is sourced to an independent, scholarly source and not the institution's own website. I see you have posted your proposed version of the edit on my sandbox. Let us continue any further discussion regarding this topic on the talk page of my sandbox. Harshmellow717 (talk) 07:01, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

@Harshmellow717: We should keep the discussion here since it relates to content on this article. Your points make sense, and I would like to propose Edit #3. It uses the word 'organ' instead of 'eye' and 'body' because it's less confusing and strange than mentioning both 'eye' and 'body' donations as separate. @Kbhatt22: while the Laxmi Narayan Dev Gadi may not have a section, this may be the right opportunity to develop one, and all details you want to incorporate can be included there. Moksha88 (talk) 17:43, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kbhatt22: It appears that consensus is to not add the information you are proposing to the article here, but rather to the Laxmi Narayan Devi Gadi. I think it would help enhance that article further.Apollo1203 (talk) 20:12, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

@Apollo1203: @Moksha88: I am not sure that is exactly the consensus being reached. Based on the sand box drafting I am working on with Harshmellow717 the idea is to have some 1-2 sentence item here like all the other listed organizations that is expanded on in Laxmi Narayan Devi Gadi. Do you agree with this approach? Harshmellow and I are working out the revised portion for here and I will work on the detailed section on Laxmi Narayan Devi Gadi after gathering more sources and can expand details there. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kbhatt22 (talk • contribs)

@Kbhatt22: I agree, let's include the one-sentence version that links back to the article. In Edit 5, I've removed the phrase 'Vadtal diocese' because it's redundant and adjusted the wording to make it more clear that people are not just ripping out their eyes and organs for charity. @Harshmellow717:@Apollo1203: what do you all think about including this sentence back into the article while Kbhatt22 adds more details to the other article? Also, Kbhatt22 don't forget to sign your posts as it can be perceived as disruptive. Moksha88 (talk) 02:23, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

@Moksha88: Sounds good. Do I just make the change now or have to wait for something. I think consensus is reached Kbhatt22 (talk) 15:52, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

I just reviewed Edit 5 and I think it looks good. It appears the group all agrees that this is a good edit, I will go ahead and edit the page with this edit. Thank you all for the collaboration and teamwork!Apollo1203 (talk) 17:56, 16 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for making the edits and thanks everyone for working on this! Kbhatt22 (talk) 00:21, 17 May 2020 (UTC)

Original Research

There have been edits to the Gunatit Samaj section which I believe are original research. The claim is: "Dadubhai believed Pramukh Swami was against him and persuaded the BAPS trustees to remove him."

The published sources the unknown unregistered editor is referencing mentions the following:

Source 1:"Dadubhai Patel and his brother, Bapabhai, left to form a separate group called the Yogi Divine Society"...

Source 2: "There is yet another breakaway group, this time from BAPS, called the Yogi Divine Society. It was founded by Dadubhai Patel and his brother Bapabhai in 1966. This group does not recognize Pramukh Swami as the rightful successor of Yogiji Maharaj. In 1986, Hariprasad Swami became the leader of this group."

Both of these sources fail to mention what is being written. If it can be found within the source, then a citation with the page number needs to be added.Apollo1203 (talk) 15:48, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Here is the source. Stop edit warring and owning the article.

https://www.google.com/books/edition/An_Introduction_to_Swaminarayan_Hinduism/tPkexi2EhAIC?gbpv=1&bsq=dadubhai

Page 66

Why does the article have multiple pictures of BAPS? This is not a BAPS article? Doesn't make sense.

136.2.16.182 (talk) 16:01, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I have been following this discussion. The claim "Dadubhai believed Pramukh Swami was against him and persuaded the BAPS trustees to remove him." is not being made on page 66. Please correct me if I am missing something.

With that said I do agree that 7 of the 8 pictures here are BAPS picture and this is not appropriate. This page is the entire Sampradaya and so one "branch" should not dominate the entire page. Open to suggestions from Apollo1203 on how we can remediate this and spread the presence of the entire Sampradaya in the used imagery. My proposed suggestion is that images on this centeral page only be limited to mandirs, murtis and images of things originally created by Swaminarayan himself and then let each sections own landing page use their branches images. Otherwise we end up with a bias towards one branch. Kbhatt22 (talk) 21:46, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Would you like be to put exact quotes from what is stated on page 66? It literally says narayanswarupdas (pramukh was against him) and persuaded the trustees to remove him....

And we need to remove those pictures. This article is about the Sampraday not individual sects that broke off.

136.2.16.182 (talk) 22:17, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I did not draw the connection between narayanswarupdas and pramukh swami, regardless if you can use words or outline that name connection and the source is a valid book with isbn; I personally am not seeing a problem here but I will let some of the other editors/contributors provide feedback before we can all reach a consensus on this change.

I am not advocating we remove the pictures entirely but we balance them to encompass the entire Sampradaya and not any one branch. The best way being, sticking to the original content created by Swaminarayan himself. Also, please wait for others to provide feedback and a consensus to be reached before making an edit as per Wikipedia's guidelines. Kbhatt22 (talk) 22:55, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I mean that is a waste of my time and I made edits knowing my information. By the way, the entire article is written extremely biased and intentionally misleading by what appears to be members of BAPS to insinuate that he Swaminarayan Sampraday is BAPS ideology. This is misleading and wrong. Per Wikipedia, I am allowed to make constructive edits. BAPS writes do not own the article and it is unfair. If they want to debate this, then discuss here. They have a BAPS article they push any agenda they wish. The names are interchangeable. You can add it if it helps you. 136.2.16.182 (talk) 23:09, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I am not looking to being argumentative. I think you have raised some valid points worth discussion. a lot of what you removed was using books written by BAPS, which upon further review do not count as unbiased and independent sources. This page should stick to referencing text written by Swaminarayan as sources for the 'Swaminarayan Sampradaya' and then lead/link to the ideology of each branch separately on the branch page. A source originating from any one branch is naturally going to be biased by that branches views so I think that point you raise has merit for discussion. Like images, I simply propose one path for consensus is this page stick to the original scriptures written during Swaminarayan's times and guide from the sampradaya page to that branch where its branch ideology can be outlined. Kbhatt22 (talk) 00:39, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

@136.2.16.182 Looking at your edits, I find that the rationale behind them is unclear. As per (WP:BRD), I’ve reverted your changes so we can discuss them more fully here. I agree with Kbhatt22. The sentences you wrote under Gunatit Samaj fail verification and are not present in the sources you cited. Additionally, just because it’s reliably sourced does not merit inclusion into Wikipedia. I hope we can discuss your other edits here so we can better address your concerns about bias in the collaborative spirit of Wikipedia. Harshmellow717 (talk) 11:48, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

You reverted everything that was done yesterday. Some of this was my edits trying to provide sources for what @136.2.16.182 was doing as well as reverting some of those edits as well. I think some of the changes he/she made were valid to the Wikipedia policy. In terms of the sentence written under Gunatit Samaj, his original sentence was not aligned (name mismatch) with the source but I had revised it to match the source. "merit inclusion into Wikipedia" - that will have to be discussed. I am not one way or the other on that point apart from if a user feels it belongs and it meets proper criteria then I have no grounds to turn it down. This is the collaborative spirit of Wiki where no one owns a page or content. I do have concerns about bias as well after reading through all that was going on yesterday (it was very difficult to follow). This is the Sampradaya page and it is being dominated by one branch. Sources are being used from one branch. Using a BAPS linked source violates the (Wikipedia:Neutrality of sources) policy as they, like all branches, have a bias. I propose we simplify this page to be high level sampradaya content using only original content from Swaminarayan himself and link to each branch where they can manage individual branch ideology. That is a fair middle ground. Even the pictures are heavily dominated by BAPS imagery. 6 out of 10 are Baps imagery and not original Swaminarayan imagery that is shared between all branches. I think we can start this discussion but I do feel some of the changes from yesterday are valid and need discussion and consensus. Kbhatt22 (talk) 12:27, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

That's fine, I have no problem with you @talk. The BAPS brigade will be here shortly to sway their view shortly. I have no issue with the point of having only the original Sampraday's texts as sources. The problem is that BAPS teaches it's followers that their ideology is supposedly the correct interpretation so for BAPS followers its really difficult for them to comprehend that their god really had a blood line family and installed them as the leaders. Their sect is a break off group and so their objective is to make sure any reader is mislead into believing their ideal devotee from scant few sentences and ignoring the thousands of verses and books on the acharayas. I am already sure this will end up with moderators soon. And @Harshmellow717, none of my edits are controversial or are disruptive. I can request for moderators but if there are any changes that need to be discussed I'm willing to hear it out but don't undo my edits without merit. 136.2.16.181 (talk) 14:43, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Consensus would be using original swaminarayan sources. I think that is a valid point made by the IP address here. MrOllie Ifnord You are veteran wiki contributors and you stepping in is appreciated. A neutral source will benefit this. I am trying to remain neutral and use only sources that comply with the (Wikipedia:Neutrality of sources) policy. The changes currently left on the page do violate this policy very clearly and that is the red flag being raised here. My proposal is using original texts of the sampradaya written or authenticated by Swaminarayan himself. Then all the biased sources from every branch, not just baps, can link off to their individual pages and support their ideology which those pages already do. I have not made any disruptive edits and made sure independent sources validate what changes I made including small changes amid the mass changes being made yesterday were properly supported and those got reverted amid a bulk reversal. The reality is consensus will never be reached by varying branches which is why the branches exist in the first place and this situation like the IP address and BAPS is happening. I am asking MrOllie Ifnord to moderate neutrally that this page is a shared section for all Swaminarayan branches and should be high level using only original sources.....not dominated by biased sources from any one branch. This is a respectful middle ground for all sides and logically also makes the most sense. Finally catching up and reading through yesterday (this is a lot to go through lol) A majority of what was done yesterday was actually just removal of content supported with sources that are not independent. I have had a healthy and respectful relation ship with all editors on this page and honestly feel that most of the changes made yesterday being removal of the viewpoint of one branch, supported by one branches sources, is not a bad thing. Make this page high level about all Sampradays branches and let each branches specific ideologies be outlined on that page. ALSO .... can the IP address make an account please. It would make this discussion easier to track. Kbhatt22 (talk) 23:20, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey all, I came across this from the Swaminarayan Sampraday Wikiproject. I see that there are a lot of contentious accusations thrown around. I'm sure we all would just like to ensure that the article is curated properly. In that regard, it would be productive if we discussed potential edits here and added them to our respective sandboxes for us to offer critique on and hopefully update the page in an efficient manner. I don't think the constant back and forth of edit warring is serving any productive purpose. As an aside, I also would echo one of the users above stating that if the unregistered editor attempting to make the changes were to register, it would make for a cleaner conversation. ThaNDNman224 (talk) 02:13, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey! Agree that the article could be curated better. I have tried to discuss only one potential discussion point from my side coming out of everything that has been going on between the various editor over the last few days(trying to stay neutral) but it seems to be ignored. Why is one branch sources the only thing being used? There is a violation of the (Wikipedia:Neutrality of sources) policy here. We cannot rely on ideology from one branch to dictate or represent an entire sampradaya. My proposed change is we balance images and content to be applicable to the entire Swaminarayan Sampradaya. Anything that is deemed branch variation be taken to the specific branches page OR explicitly be listed under that branch and not be posted here to represent the entire Sampradaya. Kbhatt22 (talk) 04:04, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Hello @Kbhatt22: Thank you for being civil! As far as I understand, this article is about the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, not just Swaminarayan, so it should include everything from the start of the organization to the present. As outlined in these reliable sources found in the article, the Swaminarayan Sampradaya is a living religious denomination that includes all the branches, so all aspects of its history need to be included.

Regarding your question about sources, you referenced Wikipedia:Neutrality of sources which is an essay, not a policy. The essay states that “Reliable sources may be non-neutral: a source's reputation for fact-checking is not inherently dependent upon its point of view.” I think it might be easier to understand your viewpoint and more productive if you suggested specific edits and photographs in your sandbox so other users can then review and come to a consensus. I am happy to moderate or help in any way that I can. Best wishes, Skubydoo (talk) 06:35, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Hi @Skubydoo. Thank you for taking the time to moderate and review this information. You're presence here is greatly appreciated. What you said makes sense. A sources reputation is not dependent upon its point of view as you mentioned but it also states "articles should reflect an appropriate balance of differing points of view" which I suppose is where this article is lacking because it is so aggressively skewed by one point of view. If this page is to include everything from the start of the organization to present, I believe for linear flow, ideological differences should exist under header of the branch whose ideology it is. If that makes sense, this would eliminate the implication that the ideology of one branch is applicable to the entire organization which this article is subtly doing in multiple ways. I am not good with sandbox as I am still learning wiki. Looking at this revision: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swaminarayan_Sampradaya&diff=968040776&oldid=968038926. As mentioned, I am trying to be subjectively neutral and only some of these changes I feel merit discussion. Running down that revision in order.

-Desh vibah lekh is a recognized swaminarayan scripture by the highest courts of India. The IP address is trying to add it due to it being a fundamental part to the history and timeline of the organisation as it was originally approved by Swaminarayan and is recognized by all branches. It is the only explicitly documented succession plan by Swaminarayan.

-Under the Swaminarayan Gadi Maninagar section, there was a leadership change in the past few days. I am not from this branch but I was able to validate the IP addresses claim with an independent source.

-Under gunatit samaj section, I am also not from this branch but this is what sparked this entire back and forth of undoing each other between both sides. The IP address originally made a claim that didn't match the name (it was about the same person using two different names) in the source, the two sides went back and forth. I also got confused by the name variation of the claim and source material not matching. I updated the claim to match the source to resolve it for both sides, at which point Baps removed it and said it did not merit inclusion now. Even though this is using a source used throughout the article. I am indifferent about its inclusion but feel this is an ideological difference that is outlined within one branch and not implied for all branches so do not see a violation here and feel the IP's claim of feeling oppressed from making a properly sourced claim has some legs on this.

-The order of external links and major groups at the bottom of the page. This just felt petty. Baps wants to be first on the list, IP felt their organizations should be first. I propose we just list in order of organisations creation date and call it a day on "order". This point adds little scholarly value and listed by date of creation makes neutral and logical sense as a middle ground approach. @Skubydoo...I believe the two diocese were founded by Swaminarayan in 1800, then Baps was founded in 1907, then Maninagar Gadi in 1941, and then Gunatit samaj 1966. I genuinely don't know why this became a contention point but by date is neutral to all sides so we can move on.

-My own concern in any of this discussion between the two sides was with Images. I feel that this page is heavily dominated by BAPS images which does not capture the history of the organization like you mentioned the goal of this article is. I do agree with the IP on this. The images of aarti is picked to include current Baps head, the image of murti is picked to include Baps priest, the image of temple is picked to be Baps temple, the image of worship is kids in baps attire at a baps temple, the image of scriptures is baps printed book cover.....hopefully you can see the big lack of variation in point of views. I personally am not sure if some of these images add any scholarly worth to the article. The IP proposed the removal of any branch specific imagery. I proposed we use images of murtis, mandirs and scriptures created by Swaminarayan himself as this would be a universal middle ground. I would defer to you to make a decision that seems best. If we want to continue branch specific imagery for overall organisation images, then at least lets use other branches for the image of aarti, murti, and temple to mix up the skewed use of one branches images. I also am not sure why the Baps head has to have an image here but images of other branch heads will get turned down. I don't think we need an image of any branches head here as they have that on the branch pages. I personally feel it would be cooler and add more scholarly worth to show the 200+ year old original scripture sitting in the oxford museum, then a branch specific one printed 5 years ago. Or use of image of a mandir today that stands 200+ years old created by Swaminarayan himself. I defer to you for guidance. Thank you so much skubydoo for putting up with me putting this here. I look forward to you're feedback! And none of what I say is intended to be disrespectful to anyone or any branch. Kbhatt22 (talk) 10:46, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

@Kbhatt22: Hi and thanks again for your civility and enthusiasm in ensuring this article meets Wikipedia standards. I am having trouble following your proposed changes in this format. It is most effective when talk page posts are kept concise (WP:TPYES), which is why I requested earlier that we discuss proposed edits in Sandbox. WP:ABOUTSAND and H:SAND provide guidance on what Sandbox is meant for and how to use it. The photographs you mentioned will be a productive place to start. Can you please add the photographs you think should be included in the article to your Sandbox? If anyone else has any photographs to suggest, please include them in your sandboxes as well. Then everyone involved in the discussion can make decisions using concrete information. I look forward to collaborating on this. Take care, Skubydoo (talk) 03:38, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

@Skubydoo: Great suggestion, using the Sandbox for this would be best. I agree with kbhatt22 (talk · contribs) regarding the images. All branches should be represented. Images of Swaminarayan himself and the mandirs he constructed would also be a good addition to this article. I look forward to working with everyone in selecting these images. Harshmellow717 (talk) 18:23, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

@Skubydoo: @Harshmellow717: Sorry for writing a novel here and not going to sandbox. I thought id get some feedback before going there. Harshmellow and I have worked together before and he knows I am a new and inexperience with wiki and still learning the workflow so I appreciate the patience from everyone as I propose neutral revisions to resolve the dispute from both sides. I outlined everything the best I could in my sandbox. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kbhatt22/sandbox Kbhatt22 (talk) 14:14, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@Kbhatt22, please don’t forget to sign your replies as it’s easy to lose track between all the replies. I appreciate you taking my suggestion to upload on Sandbox. You did a good job finding and using it. I’m responding here since Sandbox is primarily used for proposing edits, not discussing them. Before I go into the specific edits, I wanted to note that this way of thinking about the edits as IP vs. ‘BAPS’ is problematic, as I haven’t seen any indication that any particular user is connected to BAPS. To claim it's IP vs BAPS may be interpreted as WP:POVFIGHTER, a sign of tendentious editing which is frowned upon. After reading the talk page, I also found that you mention what sects you are not from, thus implying a personal affiliation. The anonymous user or ‘IP’ has also said similar things, and this is an apparent conflict of interest (WP:APPARENTCOI). I know you’re relatively new to Wikipedia so I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming good faith. To move away from assigning a perspective to other editors, please see this essay about civility and imagining others complexly (WP:IMAGINE). My thoughts on each edit are below:

Edit 1: The ‘Major Branches’ section starts off with comprehensive details about the Lekh and its role in establishing the administrative dioceses. It is not called a scripture there but an ‘administrative document.’ Do you have supporting evidence that indicates this document is recognized as a scripture by any branch, or ideally all of them?

Edit 2: Yes, there are numerous sources from the past few days detailing the leadership change, so it makes a lot of sense to include it. Your proposed edit looks good but may need one or two more reliable sources before it’s ready to include.

Edit 3: Again you say ‘BAPS’ but no one in what I have read has suggested they have a personal affiliation with this specific denomination (WP:IMAGINE). This is problematic and shouldn’t be done in the future. Since you are indifferent on this topic, there’s no need to take it on. We can’t solve all of Wikipedia’s problems ourselves.

Edit 4: The branches listed under “major branches” are already in the chronological order that you’ve proposed.

Edit 5: In short, I think including more images is a good idea. Some of the issues that you are taking with photos do not make sense. As an example, the image you propose for the arti is very similar to the one already there. Rather than taking issue with something someone else has done, working on making your own, original contribution is always a great approach.

Best wishes, Skubydoo (talk) 04:43, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

@Skubydoo: Sometimes doing multiple edits, hard to remember to sign the replies. I will be more mindful of that. I am not sure how to describe a dispute (which is what happened a few days ago) without establishing two sides. I am not pointing out any one specific user has an affiliation to Baps but simply that there was one side that was using BAPs sources, hand picking BAPS images, claiming traditions and idealodies on behalf of one branch and another side who called it out by aggressively removing all of it instead of talking about it like we are. It is important to establish perspectives here. I assumed you were new to Swaminarayan, which maybe I was wrong, so I was trying to contextualize this situation but regardless I can not do that. I have consistently shown the ability to stay neutral here and will continue to do so but it is important to establish both sides of a dispute before it can be resolved. I have been clear, and continue to do so, that I am not from any branch. I just like to read the original scriptures. You say this is "implying a personal affiliation" but in the legal field this is a declaration of a either a conflict of interest or lack there of. Implying not part of one is not a causal effect to imply part of another. I am simply saying that I am not suggesting this change because I am a part of that branch but because I see merit in its inclusion subjectively. Here is my feedback:

Edit 1: Why is an administrative document different then a scripture? Merriam Webster defines a scripture as "a body of writings considered sacred or authoritative" .... the lekh being administrative in nature also has rules to be followed like the other scriptures listed, and fits the definition of being a writing considered sacred or authoritative. The book used as a source on this page called An Introduction to Swaminarayan Hinduism by William Raymond Brady (https://archive.org/details/introductiontosw0000will) mentions on pages 36, 44,49, 188, and 192 that it is accepted by the Ahmadabad branch and the vadtal branch as well as recognized by BAPS just they interperate it differently. This is actually supportive of my earlier point about one sided sources. The term "administrative document" is Baps interpretation as the Ahmdabad branch and vadtal branch see it as a spiritual document for all saying how "Acharya, saints, and haribhaktas should behave" https://www.swaminarayan.faith/media/3005/kalupur_magazine_english_nov-2014.pdf. We are already listing scriptures accepted by only one branch. This is one acknowledged by 3. Hopefully this resolves any questions you have and highlights that someone reading this article can walk away with one branches interpretations and not the sampadaya as a whole.

Edit 2: When all these edits get made, I can add in more sources. Consensus reached?

Edit 3: I am not trying to solve all of wikipedias problems. not even all the ones raised on this page. (only 4-5 of the 16 from this page), but after review I am not sure why this was being turned down is all. I want to be neutral and am seriously puzzled as to why something with a valid source, same as already being used, and what someone believed was a part of that branches "mythos" and origin story is being turned down. This is setting a very dangerous precedence for this kind of refusal and that is where my concern is.

Edit 4: Yes they are but the two sides from a few days ago around this dispute where arguing the links under the External links section and in the Swaminarayan sampradaya template at the bottom. I was proposing we just align those to be in the order of how the Major branches section already is as you stated. consensus reached?

Edit 5: Can you be more specific of what is not making sense? There is a major difference between the aarti images. I agree that they look similar but the major difference is one is highlighting the person doing the aarti and the other is not crediting the person but captioning the actual aarti process. Another difference is this is an original idol installed by Swaminarayan himself during the establishment of the Sampradaya. We can add both if that seems better? We could use: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/%281%29_Aarti_Thali%2C_Prayer_Plate_India.jpg as an even more branch agnostic representation of aarti. Are there any concerns about the other image proposals? Kbhatt22 (talk) 14:15, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Kbhatt22 thank you for your ideas and contributions in a civil manner. However, I think there is a lot being discussed here and it may be easier if you begin with the exercise we have done previously - creating drafts on sandbox and then it can be discussed in a more organized manner. I think the first thing to add to the page would be the new Maninagar guru information. However, some of the other edits proposed I do not agree with. In terms of the images on the page. If you analyze the images on the page, only 4 of the 9 appear to be BAPS specific. However, they still are representative of the sampradaya. I think there is room on the article to potentially add 1-2 high quality images if needed. Apollo1203 (talk) 18:33, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Hey Apollo1203. Hope all is well. I did create a sandbox as advised and the response was provided here so I provided my response here as well. Here is the sandbox with full detail: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Kbhatt22/sandbox. I outlined the images individually and 7 of the 9 are Baps specific. 78% of the images here are linked to BAPS and that is not representative of the Sampradaya. As discussed with @Skubydoo: @Harshmellow717: that all branches should be represented here and there is a need to diversify the images. I made 2 over all approach proposals. We either add images to include other branches, or update existing images to be branch agnostic or branch neutral. As of right now, not a single image represents Ahmadabad, Vadtal, Swaminarayan Maningar, or Gunatit Samaj branches which are listed on the page. I would hope that you can see a problem with this? Adding 1-2 images does not balance the images to represent the entire sampradaya. Kbhatt22 (talk) 18:47, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't think 7 of the 9 are BAPS specific. The following appear to be specific: 1) Mahant Swami Maharaj performing the arti. 2) Bochasan murtis 3) Mahant Swami Maharaj image and the 4) Swaminarayan Bhashya. Although the Swaminarayan Akshardham has been built by BAPS, it is one of the largest temples in India and is an icon for the Swaminarayan Sampradaya, not just BAPS. Curious as to what others think? Apollo1203 (talk) 18:54, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

I am not sure how to respond to that. It is a BAPS temple, created and run by BAPS. It represents BAPS. That is baps specific. If your read my sandbox, I did state that that image is a modern temple and we can balance it with an original temple image from a temple created by Swaminarayan. I am simply correctly stating that 7 of the 9 images are exclusively linked to BAPs. To correct myself, I just realized that 8 of the 9 images link directly to BAPS. The image of "Swaminarayan and his senior disciples" is a cut out of the BAPS vachnamrut:https://www.amazon.com/Vachanamrut-Spiritual-Discourses-Bhagwan-Swaminarayan/dp/8175264314. It appears branch agnostic but furthers my point of a huge lack of diversity in images. 8 of 9 are linked to or created by BAPS. Lets diversify it to represent all the branches. Kbhatt22 (talk) 19:04, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Looking over the images suggested by kbhatt22 (talk · contribs), I think these suggestions do a great job in highlighting the traditions and beliefs of the entire Swaminarayan Sampradaya as a whole and would help diversify the article. However, some of the images suggested seem to be blurry and of low resolution. Let’s see if we can find better quality images. I will try to find some high-res images on Wikimedia as well for everyone to review. Harshmellow717 (talk) 03:50, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Harshmellow717 (talk · contribs) Thanks for taking the time to review this. I found an image for aarti which I think would be great. It isn't on wiki though and am unsure of what the process for adding outside images to wikimedia would be. I'd love to go through that flow if I could with this image. But this is the very first idols installed by Swaminarayan and the person doing the aarti is barely in the focus which aligns with what we were discussing earlier. I think its perfect representation of aarti and that early in the article, it goes with the flow of how the article tracks the history of the sampraday and the beginnings. Using the first idols of the sampraday there would be a good pairing and this image is pretty good resolution. https://scontent-yyz1-1.cdninstagram.com/v/t51.2885-15/sh0.08/e35/c71.0.795.795a/s640x640/70327168_1023846777964030_4228857896113504440_n.jpg?_nc_ht=scontent-yyz1-1.cdninstagram.com&_nc_cat=110&_nc_ohc=1JPbqXpv67YAX_egODs&oh=dee889f46973483a2fc91d1dc8ea5ba3&oe=5F1DCE18. If there is another image with resolution issues, let me know and I can try to search as well so we have more to pick from. I think the murti image with vadtal gopinath should be big enough to run with and its already in wikimedia so that makes things easier. Thanks Kbhatt22 (talk) 11:45, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

I am late to this conversation, but I’d like to share my thoughts. I think the article reflects the entire tradition of Swaminarayan Sampradaya, but we can include new information and add to what is already there. As @Skubydoo: mentioned, implying someone is from any branch without proof could be misinterpreted as uncivil. @Kbhatt22:, I am aware of your good intentions from our past interactions, which is why I recommend rewording your reasoning in your sandbox. Imagining ‘sides’ to an argument is the problem, not a solution according to (WP:POVFIGHTER) as Skubydoo points out. Can you just state the point without attributing it to anyone to keep things clear and neutral?

Edit 1: I agree with you. The Lekh should be included in the article. Upon reviewing the ‘Scriptural tradition’ section and the reference you provided, I think it’s more logical to include the Lekh in the ‘Major branches’ section. The last line of the introductory paragraph for ‘Scriptural tradition,’ defines scriptures as “sacred biographies, ethical precepts, commentaries, and philosophical treatises,” none of which seem to address the purpose of the Lekh.

Edit 2: I agree, we should include. Skubydoo, I think it’s ok if we have one source for now. If nobody disagrees, then let’s add.

Edit 3: In reviewing the reference, I don’t see how the 2 sentences in question are supported by the reference. On page 66, Williams first states that Dadubhai blamed Narayanswarupdas Swami and said Yogiji Maharaj supported him. In the next sentence, Williams demonstrates that this is a false statement by referencing a document showing that Yogiji Maharaj signed the order of excommunication. It would not be good to include the statement that Williams establishes to be false, while ignoring the true statement (WP:CHERRY). Can everyone else please verify?

Edit 4: Let’s stick with chronological order to keep things fair.

Edit 5: I will post my suggestions on your sandbox since it’s easier to see everything there. Moksha88 (talk) 13:39, 22 July 2020 (UTC)