Talk:Waukesha Christmas parade attack

Move from Waukesha Christmas parade attack

The page was proposed for move from 2021 Waukesha Christmas parade attack → Waukesha Christmas parade attack. One editor argued that all the comments were for moving to Waukesha parade attack and eliminated "Christmas." Let's see if @AzureCitizen:, @Jax 0677:, @Crouch, Swale:, @GoPats:, @Iamreallygoodatcheckers:, @Ribbet32: have anything to say about that interpretation of their comments. Cheerio, XavierItzm (talk) 13:24, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Your argument includes a mis-statement of fact. There were four three editors, not one, who considered and agreed with dropping Christmas: @Moncrief:, @Jim Michael:, @Editeur24:, @InedibleHulk:, the first three explicit and the last implicit. Curiously, you did not notify any of them about starting this thread, which you should have done per WP:CANVAS if you notified anybody at all. You, thus far, are the only editor to oppose dropping Christmas, and you haven't stated a substantial reason why.

There was a question whether or not to capitalize "parade" because it was unclear whether "Christmas Parade" was a proper name or not. The sources appear to be inconsistent. Rather than having to decide that question, it seemed like it would be simpler, and better, to drop "Christmas" altogether. You will notice that the people said to drop "2021" because this is the only Waukesha parade attack in history. The exact same logic can be applied to the word "Christmas." In some sense, "Christmas" is even more redundant than "2021" because it's only needed if there were more than one parade attack in Waukesha in 2021, which seems like a very remote possibility this late in the year. Jehochman ^Talk 13:45, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

I didn't implicitly support or oppose anything. Just said the p should be lowercase if this happens. Same deal as telling people in general they should stop, drop and roll if they catch fire. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:52, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose - Oppose move to Waukesha parade attack. Support move to Waukesha Christmas parade attack. A page should not be moved like that during a move discussion until a verdict is reached. I think a formal move review is in order. --Jax 0677 (talk) 14:30, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Do you have a reason for wanting to include Christmas in the title? Jim Michael (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

• Reply - It is a Christmas parade. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:59, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

But that fact isn't often prominent in media headlines, it happened in Nov, and it's an extra word that's not needed in the title. The current title is clear & concise and has no ambiguity. The 2016 Berlin truck attack was against a Christmas market, but it doesn't have or need Christmas in its title. Jim Michael (talk) 19:38, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

• It's fine, unless you are aware of another Waukesha parade attack article. Please don't tell me this is one of those "they're trying to get rid of Xmas" things, or I will lose the will to live. Black Kite (talk) 16:08, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
• Its probably not needed especially since its not Christmas yet. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:13, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
• Move as proposed. The fact that it was a Christmas parade is in fact prominent in the headlines, [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] and the fact that it's November means nothing anymore because of Christmas creep, regardless of one's POV about Christmas creep being a bad thing. Ribbet32 (talk) 20:25, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
• Support Waukesha "Christmas parade" per Ribbet32. The common name for this event almost invariably includes the term "Christmas" parade— Crumpled Fire • contribs • 21:55, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
• Point of order - This discussion should continue but please try to clarify with sources, if you support adding Christmas, whether it should by "Waukesha Christmas Parade attack" or "Waukesha Christmas parade attack." In other words, is "Waukesha Christmas Parade" a proper name, or is "Christmas" being used as an adjective to describe parade. Jehochman ^Talk 22:05, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Comment Thanks Jehochman. I agree. This article is spinning like a top. It's a seven day old, 850 word article with over 850 edit revisions and almost no content addition in the last 350 edits - editors are recycling/reverting the same edits over and over again. It's been interesting to watch. Here are the 16 names for this article in the last 7 days:

Darrell Brooks (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

Darrell E. Brooks (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

2021 Waukesha Christmas Parade Attack (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

2021 Waukesha Christmas Parade incident (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

2021 Waukesha Christmas parade incident (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

2021 Waukesha car crash (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

2021 Waukesha attack (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

Milwaukee parade attack (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car rampage (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car attack (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car crash (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

2021 Waukesha Christmas massacre (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

Waukesha Christmas parade attack (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

Waukesha parade crash (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

Christmas parade attack (redirect page) ‎ (links | edit)

Waukesha parade attack (current)

We might want to shift the focus to content additions.Wiki-psyc (talk) 23:11, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

• Support "2021 Waukesha Christmas Parade" rampage (or attack) or "Waukesha Christmas Parade" rampage (or attack) as 2021 Waukesha Christmas Parade is the official name of the event per the Waukesha County Website. Rampage means a course of violent, riotous, or reckless action or behavior. Attack means the act of attacking with physical force or unfriendly words.Wiki-psyc (talk) 22:28, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

Data: This is how our readers are searching for this article. These are the page views on Wikipedia (using Pageviews tool)...

2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car rampage → 51,637

2021 Waukesha Christmas Parade Attack → 45,980

Note - this was the first title given to this article.

2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car crash → 28,038

2021 Waukesha Christmas parade incident → 5,438

2021 Waukesha car crash → 2,732

2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car attack → 2,150

2021 Waukesha Christmas Parade incident → 1,112

Waukesha parade attack → 1,006

Waukesha Christmas parade attack → 129

2021 Waukesha attack → 284

Milwaukee parade attack → 10

Waukesha parade crash → 8

2021 Waukesha Christmas massacre → 7

Christmas parade attack → 1

• Waukesha parade crash Common name in mainstream reliable sources generally preferred by most non-banned Wikipedians, as explicitly verified by the equal-but-opposite mainstream reliable source, a fact conveniently not disputed by the sources said to use it. InedibleHulk (talk) 23:32, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
• Don't let those eight pageviews fool you, either, it was never an automatically viewable page and only became a usable redirect on Saturday morning (or midnightish Friday, Waukesha time), well after the "war on Wikipedia" passed the American news spotlight to "Omicron". InedibleHulk (talk) 01:16, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

  To give you a direct comparison of yesterdays page-views for "2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car rampage" vs "Waukesha parade crash" both of which were redirects on November 27, and correcting for hours accessible, "2021 Waukesha Christmas parade car rampage" had 600 times more page-views than "Waukesha parade crash". I'm sharing the data based on your concern above and to be helpful, not to push my opinions on you. Wiki-psyc (talk) 01:59, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

  Thanks, no worries. I hope you don't mind me undoing your indentation, either (I wasn't replying to myself ). That title has good views, but probably zero uses outside of Wikipedia and its infinite mirrors. I doubt humans are typing it, too. Possibly social media shares or uncorrected pipelinks coming from inside the house? InedibleHulk (talk) 02:15, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - I just started a move review at Wikipedia:Move_review/Log/2021_November#Waukesha_parade_attack. --Jax 0677 (talk) 01:51, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
• Waukesha parade attack. Just as there is no reason to include 2021, there is no reason to include Christmas. They are both indicators of timing, which is not important here as there have been no other parade attacks in Waukesha, either in other years or in other holiday seasons. WWGB (talk) 12:48, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
• Waukesha parade attack. Having "Christmas" in the title does nothing to avoid confusion or disambiguate. Just not a necessary word for the title. Obviously it will appear in the lead paragraph, but it's not absolutely essential information for a title. Among other reasons, there's zero evidence so far that the attack was related to Christmas. The attack is the crucial piece of information, not the reason for the parade. Most reasons I've seen for not supporting this move can be countered by WP:NOTBURO. Moncrief (talk) 18:37, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
• Waukesha Christmas parade attack, as OP (obviously) and as per the discussion that was incorrectly closed. The sources mention that it was a Christmas parade. It's become part of the name. Follow the WP:RS. XavierItzm (talk) 05:37, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
• Waukesha parade attack meets the criteria at WP:TITLE for recognizability, concision, and precision. More disambiguators (Christmas, 2021, etc) are unnecessary, and those citing pageviews or Google hits don't understand our naming criteria. VQuakr (talk) 22:21, 6 December 2021 (UTC)
• Comment, I preferred it when it had the word rampage, which has "movement" as part of its definition. Abductive (reasoning) 09:26, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

  This story is no longer rapidly evolving. We should wait for the move review discussion to conclude and then you could propose another move to a better title, now that we have a good view of what happened and there may not be many significant developments until the criminal case resolves. Category: Vehicular rampage is what Wikipedia calls such events, and a quick search of the news shows that this term has been widely used, suggesting that your idea is at least plausible. Jehochman ^Talk 14:23, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

• Waukesha parade attack, per WP:CONCISE and WP:PRECISE (we are only as precise as necessary). Having "Christmas" in the title is actually confusing, becuase it was an Xmas-themed parade in November and nowhere near actual Christmas.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  16:01, 12 December 2021 (UTC)
• Waukesha parade attack - Unless there was another attack during a parade in Waukesha, it doesn't seem necessary to specify that it was a Christmas parade. We could also title it Waukesha Christmas parade attack by Darrell E. Brooks on November 21, 2021 at 4:39pm on the corner of Barstow and Main, and while that would be accurate, there is no need for that level of specificity in the title. —⁠ScottyWong⁠— 17:32, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

  I think you'll find it's actually Waukesha Christmas parade attack, suspected to have been carried out by Darrell E. Brooks on November 21, 2021 at 4:39pm CDT on the corner of Barstow and Main. You forgot that he was the suspect, and, of course, the time zone. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 22:32, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

• Comment - I filed a request at WP:CR. --Jax 0677 (talk) 18:58, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Mugshot copyright status

Can we hold off on adding this image until there is evidence that the license is acceptable? ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:10, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

Wisconsin has a very broad, open records law with few limits. Quoting the law (Section 19.81(1) of the Wisconsin Statutes (2003–04)): “In recognition of the fact that a representative government is dependent upon an informed electorate, it is declared to be the public policy of this state that all persons are entitled to the greatest possible information regarding the affairs of government and the official acts of those officers and employees who represent them. Further, providing persons with such information is declared to be an essential function of a representative government and an integral part of the routine duties of officers and employees whose responsibility it is to provide such information. To that end, §§ 19.32 to 19.37 shall be construed in every instance with a presumption of complete public access, consistent with the conduct of governmental business. The denial of public access generally is contrary to the public interest, and only in an exceptional case may access be denied.”

Furthermore, the Sherriff's department provided the photo for publication, according to every news source that published it. I'd say, unless you can prove the photo is explicitly excluded by law (it's not), then it's fine to have here. Reverting of course.Mattnad (talk) 15:48, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

That media file is still missing evidence of permission (see here). If not corrected, it will be deleted seven days after it's original upload date of 10 December 2021. It needs to be fixed there first before being re-added here. Regards, AzureCitizen (talk) 16:07, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

also Winter Garden

If there is enough coverage on what happened December 15th during the Christmas parade in Winter Garden, Florida to warrant an article, should we list that in a see also due to it's similarity?

• https://www.orlandoweekly.com/Blogs/archives/2021/12/13/winter-garden-christmas-parade-cancelled-after-driver-crashes-into-route

It appears that a police officer blocking the parade was nearly hit and then a family inside a car was hit when the officer dodged. WakandaQT (talk) 20:40, 19 December 2021 (UTC)