Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Lead section

Lede length

Given the function of the lede as a short summary and the requirement that it be no longer than four paragraphs, I would argue that an article only 1-4 paragraphs long does not need a lede. Can that be made explicit in this guideline? Praemonitus (talk) 15:13, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

To flip that around: surely an article of 1-4 paras will generally be all lede? i.e., would lack other sections, and certainly start with a header. I think that's already implied by WP:SUMMARYSTYLE. Whether an explicit discussion of that on this subpage isn't entirely clear to be either way. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 22:12, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the proposal. Articles of 1-4 paragraphs don’t need to add the clutter of section headings. CUA 27 (talk) 19:04, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I would certainly oppose the removal of section headings merely on the basis of having a below-threshold number of paragraphs. It is entirely possible to have an article with a one-paragraph lead section and two one-paragraph body sections. On the other hand, if the proposal is merely that short articles with 1-4 paragraphs and no sections should not be forced to become sectionized merely for the sake of having sections, I agree. —David Eppstein (talk) 19:10, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't think our present text implies anything about sections, and I'm not sure what it'd be helpful to add here -- which by definition is about text prior to any section heading -- about the presence or absence of them. I think that summary style already implies that there should be some sort of proportionate relationship between the lead and the body, but it's not especially rigorous or specific about that. Certainly I've seen many articles that don't do well in that respect, with for example two-sentence leads in many-thousand-word articles, but until they come up at GAR I doubt there'll be any sudden crisis to address that. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 20:27, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

An article with 1-4 paragraphs and multiple section headers in the body is most likely in conflict with MOS:OVERSECTION. In that case, I just find the headers to be unhelpful bloat. Perhaps that can be referenced? Praemonitus (talk) 02:18, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Foreign language translation

Regarding MOS:LEADLANG, at what point is the subject of the article so closely associated with a non-English language, that a foreign translation should be included in the first sentence? Your input at Talk:Steinbach, Manitoba#Translation in lead is appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 10:46, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

Presentation of dualled place names in infoboxes and ledes

How should dualled place names generally be presented in an articles lede and infobox, when the dual name is not the common name?

A: As at Uluru - Both individual names and dual name in the lede as WP:ALTNAMES, with the title as the leading name. Both individual names in infobox.

B: As at Disentis - Both individual names and dual name in lede as WP:ALTNAMES, with the title as the leading name. Dual name in infobox.

C: As at Bradshaw Sound - Only the dual name in lede, dual name in infobox.

The RFC is held at this central location as it affects articles about places in Australia, France, New Zealand, and Switzerland, but it is not intended to alter the MOS. The context of the RFC is ongoing debate about the ideal format, which this RFC is intended to resolve in a consistent manner. 03:03, 21 January 2022 (UTC) Clarified 02:02, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board, Wikipedia talk:France-related topics notice board, Wikipedia:New Zealand Wikipedians' notice board, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Switzerland. BilledMammal (talk) 03:03, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Notified: Wikipedia:Neutral point of view/Noticeboard, Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) Spekkios (talk) 07:32, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

• A. C omits important information, as it doesn't explain to the reader what the dual name is, and it may confuse readers not familiar with dual names by failing to give an explanation why the name used in the lede and infobox is different from the title. Further, it gives WP:UNDUE prominence to the official name at the expense of the common name.

A is also preferable over B, again due to WP:UNDUE prominence issues, though these are significantly reduced. The issues around clarity are similarly reduced, though they do remain due to the fact that some readers skip straight to the infobox for a summary. BilledMammal (talk) 03:03, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

• A plus more Article titles are predominantly determined by WP:COMMONNAME as determined in English language source, which may be different from the official name. It is most natural/logical (IMO) for the article title to take precedence in the lead (since this is justified by the sources and would be IAW WP:WEIGHT). Also IAW WP:WEIGHT any other names should also be given in the lead. Ideally, the reasons/relationship of the other names should be made clear in the lead or the first section thereafter at the very least (and only if it requires too much explanation that would be beyond the scope of the lead. The article title will generally be how the subject is referred to in the article - except if the change is historic and it might be referred to by its earlier name in historic context or to explain the occurrence of different names. Only the article title is the only name that needs to appear in the infobox. Both names might appear in the infobox but perhaps only if there is no clear common name. Option C is definitely out per BilledMammal. The infobox is a supplement to and not a replacement for the lead. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:00, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
• C - First of all, I find it in poor taste that you waited until the ongoing discussion was clearly going against your preferred approach to open this RfC, and such a move leaves a lot to be desired in my view. In terms of the topic at hand, as mentioned in the aforementioned discussion an approach such as your proposed A has a lot of repetitive and redundant information. It would be akin to the example of having Waimakariri River (Māori: Waimakariri) at the start of an article. C is a much more concise and clear option than repeating each component of the dual name multiple times, and reflects the particular nuances of the given place name. We should treat readers with a modicum of respect in assuming that a backslash isn't going to confuse them, especially given that many articles currently have primary names in their lede that aren't the article name, including the WP:COMMONNAME examples of Bono and Bill Clinton, and the recently topical Hunga Tonga before the nominator changed that topic's name after I previously pointed out the discrepancy. Having an official name in the infobox also has precedent as per the general guidelines for geographic names, and so I'm not sure what the issue with that portion of this is at all.
  In terms of the comment about WP:WEIGHT, the information would all be provided in the lede anyway - for example, The Cam River (Māori: Ruataniwha), officially Cam River / Ruataniwha) and Cam River / Ruataniwha fundamentally provide the same information - the latter just does so in a much clearer and more concise manner. Further, the use of dual names over either component name aligns much better with other aspects of WP:NPOV than the other proposals, especially instances of WP:BALANCE and WP:IMPARTIAL. Turnagra (talk) 09:43, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Having looked at the below points being made, while I still agree that C is the best approach in a NZ context I appreciate that it may not work everywhere and it's best left for individual WikiProjects to come to their own consensus on, so I'm changing my vote to no global standard. Turnagra (talk) 18:08, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

• Per WP:SLASH: Generally, avoid joining two words with a slash, also called a forward slash, stroke or solidus ( / ), because it suggests that the words are related without specifying how. Replace with clearer wording. There are particular conventions for bios that are different to those for geographic names so analogies to bios are probably not the best argument to make. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) makes a number of statements, including: The lead: The title can be followed in the first line by a list of alternative names in parentheses. Option A is consistent with the advice. If the matter is in regard to the slash, it should clearly be avoided. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:59, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

  Further, The lead: The title can be followed in the first line by a list of alternative names in parentheses. Waimakariri River (Māori: Waimakariri) is not an alternative name; it's the exact same name repeated twice. The infobox example in the guidelines refers to a country, which I'm pretty sure is the intended target for a "formal" name (eg "United States" in the title --> "United States of America" in the infobox). --Spekkios (talk) 11:14, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

  WP:SLASH provides exemptions for when a slash is used in a phrase outside of Wikipedia and when a different construction would be inaccurate - this is the case here, as the dual names in question have widespread use in the slash format within New Zealand (which is relevant per WP:LANGVAR). There are also specific conventions for the use of dual names in New Zealand-related articles. Turnagra (talk) 17:32, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Please explain how WP:SLASH supports the argument being made. I'm just not seeing it. Cinderella157 (talk) 15:07, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Apologies, I was getting confused between WP:SLASH and WP:TITLESLASH since I'm used to having this discussion in the context of page titles. Turnagra (talk) 18:08, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

• A. This option provides the clearest and correct information. C is confusing and misleading. --Enos733 (talk) 16:50, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

  Can you elaborate on how you think C is misleading? Turnagra (talk) 17:32, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

  Sure. C is confusing because I do not know whether the "Kaikiekie / Bradshaw Sound" contains a slash. Option A provides some quick information about the origin of the names and the relationship between the names. --Enos733 (talk) 17:42, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

  I can understand how it would be confusing, but I don't know how that makes it misleading? Turnagra (talk) 18:09, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

• None of the above. We should not standardize this. This is not a one-size-fits-all situation. What if you're writing about a place with a large number of names? Zimbabwe has 16 official languages. People in India speak more than 400 languages. Mount Everest got its English name precisely because the British researchers couldn't find a single, dominant name among the local residents. Editors should use their best judgment, based on their understanding of all the relevant reliable sources, to decide which and how many names should be included in different places. Editors should not be trying to cram all the complexities of reality into a single "approved" format.
  See also the advice in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names)#Multiple local names, which addresses the options. WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:50, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure that's an issue: the RfC question is a little unclear, but I think it refers to having the other part of the dual name in the lead sentence, not all other names. --Spekkios (talk) 23:01, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

  Apologies, I see where the confusion comes from. "All" encompasses only the dual name and the components of the dual name - if appropriate, I will clarify in the RFC? BilledMammal (talk) 01:00, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

  I would advise it myself - currently it can be read to suggest that the proposal is for all names to be presented in the lead, not just the two names that make up a dual name. --Spekkios (talk) 01:21, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

  Done; If you believe that it can be tweaked further, please feel free to do so. Pinging WhatamIdoing, as I believe their reply is the only one affected. BilledMammal (talk) 02:02, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

• No standard. We give wide latitude to individual WikiProjects to decide the format of articles - for example, some WikiProjects discourage infoboxes, and that should be respected. Since WikiProject New Zealand has already debated this at length (and the debate is ongoing), let us reach our own concensus, and I would not try to determine standards for WikiProjects and cultures I have no knowledge of.-gadfium 22:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
• A: This is the format which is the most consistent with Wikipedia articles that don't have a dual name. It follows the general guidelines which avoids issues of inconsistency across the project due to WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. I read the proposal to mean all names in the official dual name, not all names used across all languages, so I don't see an issue with the number of names used in the lead sentence. I'm fairly sure the poster means both and not all, as in both names in the dual name, not all names used in all languages. If there do happen to be too many names, the general guidelines covers that anyway (ie: move all alternative names to an entomology section to avoid clutter). "A" avoids giving undue weight to the WP:OFFICIALNAME, and instead maintains the focus on the WP:COMMONNAME, which is the article title and the name used throughout Wikipedia. --Spekkios (talk) 23:13, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
• D: None of the above, and especially not C, which would read as forbidding the mention of a common name. I have only a weak preference for B over A, but I strongly prefer any outcome that allows more information to be included as and where necessary. Dual named places are (most) commonly referred to by only one of the two names at a time, so it would be weird not to allude to this in the lead sentence. — HTGS (talk) 03:16, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
• No global standard. Remit back to WP:NCNZ for NZ-specific discussion, because dual names have different usage and societal context in NZ than Australia or Switzerland. — hike395 (talk) 09:56, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

  Could you explain why you believe these differences mean that Wikipedia needs to use different formats for, say, Bradshaw Sound and Uluru, as it is not clear to me from your response? BilledMammal (talk) 10:17, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Naming disagreements come up frequently in WP, often reflecting inflamed local political issues. Gdańsk is the canonical example which led to years of edit wars. I don't feel confident that a one-size-fits-all rule developed in here will be globally WP:NPOV and prevent editing wars. I think it's far better for editors who understand the cultural context for each country to reach consensus. — hike395 (talk) 11:18, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I see that as the benefit of a global solution as it allows those disagreements to be resolved without reflecting political issues, as to reflect them would be a violation of NPOV. In any case, it is still not clear to me why you believe that a global solution cannot be NPOV - while B and C do have some NPOV issues due to providing disproportionate weight to the official name, I am not seeing any such issues with A. BilledMammal (talk) 11:27, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

• No global standard. Naming conventions are often evolving in national and regional contexts, with New Zealand only one example. These changes should inform Wikipedians' prioritization of names / equalization of different names on a region-by-region basis.--Carwil (talk) 17:40, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
• No global standard. Let NZ and AUS and wherever else decide what makes sense in their local context (which might be a national decision or article-by-article). Certainly in Australia (and I write Australian content), there can be many alternative names (I'd be grateful if the alternatives was limited to just two). For example for places, there is an official English name and there might be a common English name then there can be one or more Indigenous names for the same place in the different Indigenous languages, and, as Indigenous languages are oral not written, there can be disagreements about how to spell an Indigenous name using our alphabet (due on different pronunciations in different dialects). And some Indigenous names are official alternative names, some are not official alternative names, etc. Look at Ankamuti as an illustration of the problem; it has a whole section devoted to listing alternative names (and if you look at the other articles listed in the navbox, you will see this is a common situation). The other thing to bear in mind is that the name in an infobox might be reused by other tools so you have to be careful what you put in the name field (e.g. some probably expect only one name, not a list). Some infoboxes have other fields for alternative names, e.g. native_name, alt_name, etc. So I really don't think the MOS should try to dictate how alternatives are handled in infoboxes. Kerry (talk) 09:32, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
• Comment I don't know if the RfC question is a good expression of the underlying issue. It is obvious that there is more background to this and some commenters have come here aware of this. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (geographic names) already gives good advice on how to deal with alternative names - both in the lead and in the infobox. To me, it appears that the issue might be in the slash construction that is used in the example for option C. The slash is definitely not a good option because it is confusing. WP:SLASH clearly covers this - at least for the lead. One can't expect editors to provide informed comment if the issues aren't clearly articulated and they are not aware of the full background. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:39, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
• Do not standardise – (edit conflict) There is no one size fits all approach here and I don't see why this is an issue. Let editors decide what is most appropriate for each article based on existing naming conventions for different fields/WikiProjects. 5225_C (talk • contributions) 03:12, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
• Comment - Use the english name as the article title & list the english name first, in the intro. GoodDay (talk) 03:16, 24 January 2022 (UTC)

  I have two questions. Firstly, how does this help for Disentis and similar - which of the German "Disentis" and Romansh "Mustér" would you designate as the primary name? Secondly, which of Uluru and Ayers Rock is the English name? Both (but especially Uluru) are used in English-language sources by people that only know English, because it is a place name in Australian English. It would be deeply strange for the article to use the British name by default (which I assume is what you're actually suggesting) when it is by far the less common in Australia. --Xurizuri (talk) 19:22, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

• No global standard for the reasons given by other editors. While it would be nice to have a neutral global solution, there will always be exceptions or situations where the global situation doesn't suit. The Derry/Londonderry result is a classic example of where a bespoke compromise has been reached by consensus. I think unilaterally introducing a global solution and overriding whatever local approaches exist at the moment is likely to cause more arguments and problems then it solves. Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 03:22, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
• No global standard - Different situations require different solutions. These can be discussed on an article by article level by the involved editors. Fieari (talk) 07:27, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
• No standard - and this is not a MOS issue. The MOS must never be used to determine content issues, and given the complexity and contentiousness of dual place names in many contexts (as noted in several comments above), it is entirely inappropriate to suggest that the MOS should have any bearing on the matter. AndyTheGrump (talk) 01:11, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

Good point. — hike395 (talk) 17:32, 30 January 2022 (UTC)

• No standard. I'm guessing there are really good reasons each of those articles are different. At the very least, I have context for Uluru (I'm australian). It would be deeply absurd to present "Ayers Rock" as any more prominently than it currently is. No one calls it Ayers Rock, except for the same group that say things like "we don't need to say sorry for anything". Basically - it's contentious. It's really really contentious. That's why some of these places have double-barrelled names - because there are limited options for representing that complexity in official gazettes, but luckily WP doesn't have the same restrictions. Unless we, for an inexplicable reason, set them on ourselves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xurizuri (talk • contribs) 19:01, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

"Lede"

Why isn't the word "lede" a part of the first sentence? It is a common name. Perhaps we can add something along the liens of "The lead section (also known as the lead or lede or introduction). Wretchskull (talk) 08:17, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

Partly I think because it's largely an AmEng (not that that always stops anyone!), and partly that it more often means "opening sentence" or "opening paragraph" rather than "opening section". (Granting that on some of out articles those aren't especially different!) In fact at the end of the lede (paragraph), it says, "It is not a news-style lead or "lede" paragraph." So it might further confuse matters to introduce "lede" as a concept earlier, then to use it in a different sense shortly afterwards. 109.255.211.6 (talk) 08:29, 22 January 2022 (UTC)

I think one can talk about a lead/lede sentence, a lead/lede paragraph, and a lead/lede section. I don't think that's the issue. It's really just a spelling thing, and probably reflects where you live and/or how old you are and/or if you have a history of dealing with publishers (who traditionally use "lede"). I personally write "lede" (due to decades of dealing with publishers). I think it could be dealt with here by saying simply "lead (also written as lede)". It's not a semantic difference, just alternative spelling. Kerry (talk) 09:09, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I have been "corrected" on using "lede" to refer to the lead section, citing MOS:NOTLEDE to tell me that Wikipedia's lead section is not a "journalistic lede". My exposure to the word is largely limited to Wikipedia so I use "lede" as a spelling variant to specify the lead section rather than the element or a leash, but apparently using the word signals to some people that someone is a clickbait journalist or a DYK hook writer. 9³ (talk) 00:52, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

First sentence example correction

MOS:FIRST states, "Be wary of cluttering the first sentence with a long parenthesis containing alternative spellings, pronunciations, etc.,". The example for Date(s) and/or location(s) inclusion in the first sentence had, "The Spanish–American War (April 21 – August 13, 1898, Spanish: Guerra hispano-estadounidense or Guerra hispano-americana; Filipino: Digmaang Espanyol-Amerikano) was an armed conflict between Spain and the United States." In my opinion, this parenthesis is precisely what the cluttering guideline seeks to prevent, therefore I changed it to "The Spanish–American War[9] (April 21 – August 13, 1898) was an armed conflict between Spain and the United States", with the alternative foreign spellings in the footnote. User:Gitz6666 then reverted with the explanation, "IMHO the text was meant to illustrate an exception to MOS:FIRST as "Date(s) and/or location(s) should be included in the first sentence if they help the reader to quickly determine if they're at the "right" article". I don't dispute that, I made the edit to avoid having cluttering in the first sentence by placing the alternative spellings in a footnote. Granted, the article from which the example is taken (the Spanish–American War, source rightfully added by Gitz6666 later on), contains the clutter, but I think instead of reverting my edit, the clutter in the source article should be fixed as well. I don't believe it is necessary to show the whole text of alternative spellings as consecutive text and to me it looks like it makes the essential information more difficult to read. --Thinker78 (talk) 01:20, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Hello @Thinker78: I think there are two separate issues here.

1) Substantive issue. Do we need the following exception to MOS:FIRST? Date(s) and/or location(s) should be included in the first sentence if they help the reader to quickly determine if they're at the "right" article. The exception was added by @Facts707: here and was later streamlined by @CUA 27: here. Facts707 also cited Spanish–American War as an example to illustrate the exception. This might be a good example for a reasonable exception, but I don’t have strong views on this: if we don’t like it, we can either remove the exception to MOS:FIRST or find a better example.

2) Editorial issue. If we don’t want to remove the exception and we don’t come up with a better example, then IMHO we shouldn’t rephrase the text so as to avoid the cluttering and make it compatible with the rule MOS:FIRST. The text is meant to be an exception to MOST:FIRST and is there to exemplify the point. While I don’t have any clear preference regarding the substantive issue, I reverted your edit because I thought that there should be consistency between the MOS guidelines and the examples we provide to illustrate them. We shouldn't mention Spanish–American War as a model to follow and then misquote its lead section. We should rather change that section, unless there are good reasons to keep it, such as helping the reader to quickly determine if they're at the right article or should rather be at Spanish American wars of independence (which is the rationale for the exception to MOS:FIRST). Gitz (talk) (contribs) 13:50, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't know about the exception issue, which I think should be discussed separately. I made an edit simply out of concern about the cluttering. As I mentioned in my original comment, I concede that the example should have reflected the original article it points to and I failed to also modify this latter so it would follow the long parenthesis guideline as well. Given that you reverted me, now my hands are tied regarding that (the 1RR), but I don't think the cluttering should remain, because in my opinion it disrupts the flow of the sentence and makes it difficult to read unnecessarily.--Thinker78 (talk) 18:35, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

I don't want to tie your hands :-) My point is purely editorial and not substantive. I can think three alternative ways of moving forward. 1) You can find a better example than Spanish-American War to illustrate the exception. 2) You can try to modify the lead section of Spanish-American War and remove the cluttering. Once your revision gets to be accepted there, as far as I'm concern you can proceed with you edit here; 3) We can wait for other users to add their views to ours. It might well be that my editorial point (the example should reflect the text of the article) is not that deeply felt by others. In that case, I wouldn't object further. Gitz (talk) (contribs) 21:12, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

Fair enough. I will wait at least a week to see if there is further input from other editors in this thread before moving ahead with probably option 2.--Thinker78 (talk) 14:13, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Lead's prominence in leading search engines (esp. Google)

Wikipedia leads are now routinely scraped by major search engines like Google to provide a summary result when conducting a search for a person or topic. This seems to present the first two sentences of the lead to the user. While some will say Wikipedia has no control over this, none of us have control over the weather either, and we still find it a good idea to take it into consideration when we plan our days. Wikipedia should consider amending the Lead policy to advise that priority be given to the most notable facts regarding a person or topic in the first two sentences of the lead, so as not to give a misleading or slanted view of the person/topic in question in search summary results. The catalyst for this is the page for Jimmy Savile, as when people Google him, only the first two sentences of the Lead are shown as a result, which are entirely positive regarding his titles and philanthropic work, and do not make mention of his infamy as a child sex predator. Dbsanfte (talk) 12:23, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I don't agree with this. Search engines shouldn't be shaping how Wikipedia presents information. Praemonitus (talk) 15:20, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree that the first sentence should contain in principle the most important and notable information of the subject of the article. Although I understand Praemonitus' point, the fact is that Wikipedia articles need to have a certain standard designed to present quality information to the reader in the best manner possible for its easiest reading and comprehension. Many times I stumbled on pages that bury the most notable information late in the lede or even in the body, leaving me to wonder after reading the first sentence or the first paragraph the what or sometimes the who of the subject.--Thinker78 (talk) 16:42, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree with you from that perspective. If clarify is the goal, then the first sentence could often benefit from the removal of "also known as...", parenthetical text, names in other languages, and pronunciation guides. Those break up the flow and are just too distracting from the main goal of specifying the topic. Praemonitus (talk) 17:29, 14 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree completely. Using the first sentence to list all the (rarely used) alternate names impairs the readability of the first sentence. CUA 27 (talk) 01:09, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Agree MOS:LEADCLUTTER is a big problem.Moxy- 17:45, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

We can reach tens of millions more readers if the first two sentences contain the useful info they are searching for. Rjensen (talk) 01:11, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Most articles already deliver useful information in the first sentences, so I find your claim a bit unrealistic. Praemonitus (talk) 16:06, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

• I think that it is something that ought to be considered, yes - though it doesn't imply a huge change as the first two paragraphs are already supposed to contain the most important points. A more important thing to consider is to make sure that the first paragraph, and the first and second paragraph together, read coherently and without misleading implications even if the rest is chopped off - we would want to avoid situations along the lines of eg. the first two paragraphs describing some bit of research as if it is uncontroversial, with only the third paragraph going "however, this research is highly controversial and there is reasonable evidence that it could kill you" or the like. Leads can be balanced both by prominence / structure and by the amount of text, so it's important to make it clear that in this particular context structure could completely overwhelm amount-of-text in significance. --Aquillion (talk) 17:37, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

It's not our job to bend our back to Google. If Google wants they can show longer previews of Wikipedia lead paragraphs.  Spy-cicle💥  ^Talk? 20:34, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Another way of looking at it is: what googles spits up is only a consequence of how articles lede the reader into a page. An uncluttered first sentence on any topic, wrought by the consensus of volunteers, is what the entity is exploiting to validate its existence. ~ cygnis insignis 13:31, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

De-cluttering the first sentence

Following up on the comments above by Praemonitus and Moxy about the issue of MOS:LEADCLUTTER, I would like to propose some very incremental changes on this front.

To start with, I propose that the guidance be revised to discourage the use of alternative archaic names in the first sentence. Names that are disused can be mentioned elsewhere in the lead, or in a "Names" or "Etymology" section, instead of adding more clutter to the first sentence. CUA 27 (talk) 19:40, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Got my Support ....as per this.--Moxy- 19:44, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

This has been done. CUA 27 (talk) 00:05, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

My next proposal is to discourage lengthy pronunciation guides in the first sentence. Something similar already exists in the section discussing foreign-language names ("Consider footnoting foreign-language names if they would otherwise clutter the opening sentence"); I propose we add a similar cautionary note in the section discussing pronunciation guides. CUA 27 (talk) 17:24, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

This has been done. CUA 27 (talk) 00:05, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

A related issue I often see is, on topics named for someone, a big parenthetical clause describing who it is named for. That information is lead-worthy but can often be delayed until later in the lead than the first sentence. An example: currently Fosbury Flop reads "The Fosbury Flop is a jumping style used in the track and field sport of high jump. It was popularized and perfected by American athlete Dick Fosbury, whose..." (good style), but I often see leads more like "The Fosbury Flop (named for American athlete Dick Fosbury, who popularized and perfected it) is a jumping style used in the track and field sport of high jump." (cluttered and bad because it takes much longer to get to the more important point). —David Eppstein (talk) 19:15, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

I agree this can be an issue. The issue bears some resemblance to the concern underlying MOS:REFERS, in which the first sentence sometimes places an undue emphasis on the word/title/name rather than on the subject itself. CUA 27 (talk) 00:08, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

As an additional proposal, the section on alternative names advises against including three or more alternative names in the text of the frist sentence if a separate section on names or etymology exists. I propose revising this to make it not conditional. I.e., discourage listing three or more names in the text of the first sentence, without regard to whether a separate names or etymology section does or does not exist. CUA 27 (talk) 01:25, 28 February 2022 (UTC)

"Don't tease"

I seriously doubt anyone on English Wikipedia has ever written something like "Up to the last quarter of the 20th century the piece was considered authentic. But is it? Read in this article what famous Bach-scholars have written on the topic." The only time I've ever seen anything even marginally similar to this on English Wikipedia is when people try to avoid spoilers. For example, editors may write "The winner of the contest is revealed in this episode" instead of "In this episode, NinjaRobotPirate wins the contest". The thing is, we already have a guideline about that: Wikipedia:Spoiler. Is there any reason not to merge this into the preceding section? All we need is a single sentence, such as "don't bury the lead or tease readers with vague statements". NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 20:25, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

MOS:LEADLANG

Regarding MOS:LEADLANG, your input at Talk:British Columbia#Additional languages in the lead again? would be appreciated. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:28, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

News in the lead

Wikipedia:Recentism Is is correct to include recent informations in the lead? Such informations need to be removed or corrected when the situation changes. If the lead remains unedited, it will misinform.Xx236 (talk) 08:38, 21 February 2022 (UTC)

RfC at Talk:British Columbia

Your input is welcome at Talk:British Columbia#Request for comment on first sentence of lead. Magnolia677 (talk) 11:19, 21 February 2022 (UTC)