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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by June Parker (talk | contribs) at 04:56, 15 May 2022 (→‎Manifesto: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Title

I think "New York" should remain in the title. This may not be in line with precedence, but this isn't the only city named Buffalo that has experienced a mass shooting. (2021 Buffalo clinic attack) 2603:7080:1E39:6663:4929:D07B:74EA:5881 (talk) 21:55, 14 May 2022 (UTC)2603:7080:1e39:6663:4929:d07b:74ea:5881[reply]

Perhaps, given 2021 Buffalo clinic attack. It's a very awkward title though, and 2021 Buffalo clinic attack should also be moved if this one is. ProcrastinatingReader (talk) 22:10, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've already moved that article title to Buffalo, Minnesota clinic attack. Love of Corey (talk) 00:01, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Per precedence, shouldn't the article remain as 2022 Buffalo shooting or 2022 Buffalo, New York shooting? This is the usual style used for these mass shootings ex. 2022 Sacramento shooting, 2021 Boulder shooting, 2019 El Paso shooting. Lettlerhello • contribs 22:17, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
@Lettler I second that. Avoids the bulkiness of having the state name, and (so far) there have not been any other Buffalo mass shootings in 2022.Augusthorsesdroppings10 (talk) 23:20, 14 May 2022 (UTC)User:Augusthorsesdroppings10[reply]

Unclear meaning

“ Because he had heavily armored plating on, the bullet had no round. ” what does that mean, for people who don’t understand weapon-speak? 2600:1700:F90:6950:7C22:D9B:B84E:650A (talk) 22:27, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can only guess he misspoke. The round had no effect perhaps. --Mapsfly (talk) 00:33, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Political ideology

Three related threads combined. Slight edit to first comment for context. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 01:47, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

White supremacy? Who determined that? Are you all mind readers? 23.114.209.214 (talk) 22:28, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The term has been used in several sources, and both the FBI and Erie County Sheriff have described the shooting as "racially motivated." We shall see how things shake out. Dumuzid (talk) 22:31, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"Being described as" and "Describing oneself as" are inherently different things. Journalistic integrity demands either citations to the individual's claims, or the article's revision to reflect others' description of the individual. Otodus Meg (talk) 00:31, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
He calls himself a white supremacist in his manifesto. 24.144.227.41 (talk) 00:18, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
"you people" are editors citing reliable sources, not expressing their own opinions. See Wikipedia policy. Jibal (talk) 02:13, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

He said that depending on the definition, he could either be considered left wing or right wing, and also supports socialism in some cases. Why is he considered Far Right?

I would submit that if he indeed endorsed Great Replacement Theory, as is being reported, that would be some evidence in that direction. Dumuzid (talk) 01:09, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

His manifesto calls himself a leftist socialist. How is that white supremacy? Why is leftist socialist not the description? 2601:14B:C200:3C20:A130:87E2:CE77:1872 (talk) 01:37, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source? Nythar (talk) 01:41, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Didn't actually read his manifesto, did you? The left isn't flogging the phony "replacement theory" dead-horse. The right is.39.116.182.33 (talk) 01:43, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
According to The New York Times the manifesto promoted the great replacement theory. Whether or not he is left wing or right wing doesn't look clear now. Nythar (talk) 01:49, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
None of us have read the manifesto, nor is our reading it relevant--Wikipedia is based on reliable sources, and the article should report what they are saying ... and at this time it does. Jibal (talk) 02:17, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Granted, this is not a standard media source. Others probably will be forthcoming. It appears that he follows the replacement theory ideology. "The manifesto, which talks about the extremist far-right white or great replacement theory and includes alt-right 4chan memes and jokes, is similar to ones written by shooters who attacked a mosque in Christchurch, New Zealand, the Tree of Life synagogue in Pennsylvania and an El Paso, Texas, Walmart in recent years, Yale professor Jason Stanley says." Above quote is from: [1] Although the above quote does cite academic Jason Stanley. His Twitter statement on the shooter's ideas are motivated by "replacement theory": [2] The article needs to cite "replacement theory" as influencing the shooter's thoughts Dogru144 (talk) 02:27, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See Alsos

Since we're listing various other racist shootings (like Charleston, El Paso, etc.), perhaps Joseph Christopher could be listed? While his crimes were in 1980, he mostly operated in the Buffalo area and targeted African-Americans. Paris1127 (talk) 23:14, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 14 May 2022

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

{{requested move/dated}}

2022 Buffalo mass shooting → 2022 Buffalo shooting – Per other articles about mass shootings, e.g. 2017 Las Vegas shooting, Orlando nightclub shooting, Virginia Tech shooting, Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, etc., etc. I've never seen an article about a mass shooting titled "[Insert location name here] mass shooting". Love of Corey (talk) 23:38, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. Cadenrock1 (talk) 23:52, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support The "mass" part of the title isn't important. Nythar (talk) 00:09, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per OP. Swordman97 talk to me 00:10, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
no Oppose The correct title would be Buffalo supermarket shooting. Place names are at a higher priority than the date. Dunutubble (talk) (Contributions) 00:12, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
So why isn't 2019 El Paso shooting called El Paso supermarket shooting? Nythar (talk) 00:15, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
no Oppose for same reason. The city and specific place should take priority. The year is more of a weather event thing. --Mapsfly (talk) 00:46, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per OP. Lettlerhello • contribs 00:13, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, works for me. (Page creator if that speeds things up...) ---Another Believer (Talk) 00:17, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It should say 2022 Buffalo Shooting Thepanthersfan201 (talk) 00:16, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Gunman's name removed again. Major BLP issue

Three sources were cited. Two were the same AP article, one seems to have been copying it based on how things were worded. Both said that unnamed law enforcement articles gave the guy's name. No source said they had independently confirmed that. WP:BLPCRIME still applies here. We don't name people who someone anonymously told a journalist did something. I've removed the name again. There's no rush here, y'all. We don't get paid more for a big scoop. What matters is that we get it right, and right on the first try. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 23:57, 14 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is the name not confirmed yet? Thepanthersfan201 (talk) 00:18, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The name was confirmed shortly after I made the above post. However, still important to remember that that doesn't mean we can say in the encyclopedia's voice that "the shooter" and Payton Gendron are the same person. As long as there's any factual dispute as to that, we have to treat those as two distinct people. I've just reworded quite a bit that was running afoul of that. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 00:31, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
He's been officially identified as the shooter and put in court. No need to keep removing his name now. Swordman97 talk to me 00:42, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
He's been officially acused of being the shooter. So yes, we can name the suspect. We cannot name the perpetrator, who may or may not be the same person as the suspect. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 00:52, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article says nothing about a "perpetrator", just a suspect. The name of that suspect, which has been reported by reliable sources, should be in the article. Jibal (talk) 02:20, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It talks about a perpetrator: "The shooter". My point is that we can't call "The shooter" Payton S. Gendron, because doing so would violate WP:BLP. We can, however, call the person that the police arrested Payton S. Gendron, since that is reliably sourced to be his name. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 02:26, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The Manifesto

Are we really going to post information from the manifesto but not let others view it? Who is interpreting it? This is certainly against Wikipedia guideline to post information from it through a third party but not reference it directly.--Mapsfly (talk) 00:21, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Seconded Otodus Meg (talk) 00:38, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Its actually in Wikipedia guidelines to reference everything from a reliable secondary source. Its better to use what is reported from news source than try and interpret it directly. I agree that the sourcing right now needs to be improved for what the article has right now. WikiVirusC(talk) 00:53, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This is certainly against Wikipedia guideline to post information from it through a third party but not reference it directly.
No, it certainly isn't. Jibal (talk) 02:22, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
A single source interpreting a hidden document is not good enough for Wikipedia using WP:PROVEIT and/or WP:BURDEN --Mapsfly (talk) 03:06, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Edit requests

I suggest we begin removing duplicate or trolling edit requests, rather than answering, and if necessary establish a FAQ. Also please remember that BLP applies to talk pages. Names without sources should be removed. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 00:17, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Curious, any sources on racism in his hometown, Conklin NY? Why is the town only 1% Black?

Not related to improving this article. -- Tamzin[cetacean needed] (she/they) 02:04, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Was racism in Conklin an influence on [Gendron]? What sources are available?

The demographics section says that [Gendron's] hometown-- the town of Conklin, New York is only 1% Black. Are Black people being discriminated against in housing / real estate there? Why such a strangely low number?

Have Black people been pushed out of there? Only 1% Black for a town is a suspicious number in New York State.

Does anyone have any sources on racism in Conklin NY? Did [Gendron] grow up in a racist environment?

Chesapeake77 (talk) 01:12, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, Chesapeake77. Conklin is not in upstate New York. It is in Broome County, New York, in the Southern Tier, quite close to the Pennsylvania state line. Cullen328 (talk) 01:42, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Corrected ^^^.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 01:51, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Check out Upstate New York. It includes the Binghamton area and the Southern Tier, so that would include Conklin.Dogru144 (talk) 01:59, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This shooting just happened earlier today. You can't expect speculation about the hometown of the accused shooter hours after an event. When news organizations get to covering subjects, then they can be possibly added to the article. You don't want original research done by Wikipedia editors here. Liz Read! Talk! 02:05, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

[Gendron] called himself a "Left Socialist" in his manifesto

Not a forum, please go and read our articles on Nazism and the FAQs
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

Hitler was a socialist, he called the movement that he led National socialism. And he was also a White supremicist racist. So yes a "Left" (not Right-wing) socialist can be a White supremecist/racist.

Also the communist Soviet Union was anti-semetic (another kind of ethnic hate). So it was both communist (extreme Left) and it discriminated based on ethnicity (among other things). So again, one can be "Left" and be an ethnic / racist hater at the same time.

Chesapeake77 (talk) 01:46, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Unless you have a legitimate source proving that, it's irrelevant synthesis. 39.116.182.33 (talk) 01:58, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
And no, National Socialism isn't the same as what you're referring to (IE American liberalism.) That's almost as trite and false as the replacement theory the terrorist whined about in his manifesto. If National Socialism was "leftist" than why was the Unite the Right rally chanting "Blood and soil" and other Nazi slogans? 39.116.182.33 (talk) 02:01, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The sources are reporting that he called himself a "Left socialist" in his manifesto, as well as a White supremicist.
This was deleted from the Talk Page.
That is Talk Page vandalism.
I was just pointing out the fallacy behind this censorship.
Chesapeake77 (talk) 02:04, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
How are you 'pointing out a fallacy' by repeating textbook examples from the exact pot the shooter drew from, exactly? --2001:8003:1D0D:301:348C:5D61:16A5:1306 (talk) 02:06, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Date of birth

Payton S. Gendron was born on June 20, 2003. Source: [3]. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:08, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Heavy.com may or may not be reliable, see WP:RSP. Nythar (talk) 02:11, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Even if that is accurate, it's not really relevant in this article. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 02:34, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
It is relevant. I can cite dozens (if not, hundreds) of similar articles, where the perpetrator's date of birth is listed. (Probably all of them, actually.) For myself, I'd rather wait for a conviction (than a suspicion) ... which is why I added it to the Talk Page, for future reference. How do you conclude that a perpetrator's date of birth is not relevant to an article about his crime? Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 02:44, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The suspect isn't currently considered a perpetrator; also, a more reliable source than heavy.com would be nice. Nythar (talk) 02:49, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Rittenhouse comparisons?

I can already predict the answer to this question, but I am hot off twitter and loads of people are comparing this shooting to the Kenosha Unrest Shooting, mainly the treatment of the suspect by law enforcement as well as the fact he traveled hours to a black neightborhood.

Obviously throwing him in right now would be disruptive, but if signfigant sources decide to take it upon themselves to compare this to Kenosha, where and how would it fit? June Parker (talk) 02:12, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Best decided if and when it actually gets picked up in the reliable sources. I am dubious, but stranger things have happened. Dumuzid (talk) 02:36, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I feel like it's inappropriate to have the weapons in the quick facts?

I don't have any reason for this but it makes me feel a little weird. Anyone else feel the same and can enumerate why they feel this way? LightSonnet (talk) 02:34, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weapons are normally included here, see 2019 El Paso shooting and 2017 Las Vegas shooting. Nythar (talk) 02:38, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I'm new to editing Wikipedia. is the a guide on what should go into quick facts somewhere? LightSonnet (talk) 02:50, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
By "quick facts", I assume that you mean the Info Box. Here is some information about that Info Box template: Template:Infobox civilian attack. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:40, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Travel from Conklin to Buffalo

  • Flynn said Gendron came from Conklin, New York, which is approximately a three-and-a-half hour drive from Buffalo. Source: [4].

jimboboiii

should we include the detail the shooter streamed as "jimboboiii" on twitch?--🐦DrWho42👻 03:14, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

If it's sourced yes. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 03:15, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure why that would be useful info... Love of Corey (talk) 04:28, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 15 May 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved, WP:SNOW(non-admin closure) —Locke Cole • t • c 04:39, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2022 Buffalo shooting → 2022 Buffalo, New York shooting – The victims were human beings, not buffalo. Animal lover 666 (talk) 03:35, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose That's why Buffalo is capitalized, because it's a town and not an animal. Nythar (talk) 03:36, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose everyone should know Buffalo --Mapsfly (talk) 03:51, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per Nythar Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 03:54, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose Somebody tried that excuse with Boulder shooting, too, no luck. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:58, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - Snow close this nonsense. There's many examples of titles that can be contrived to mean something absurd. As mentioned above, Boulder shooting, the Nice attack, etc. It's silly. -- Veggies (talk) 04:04, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per everyone else. Love of Corey (talk) 04:07, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Support I don't see why not. Buffalo can mean alot of things, maybe not this title but the title isn't opposed to change. June Parker (talk) 04:33, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Just for the record...

Just for the record, the reason why I didn't WP:BOLDly move the article as suggested earlier is because I did try earlier, but I was barred from doing so and had to use a WP:RM discussion to overcome it. Love of Corey (talk) 03:52, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Manifesto

I'm readin the manifesto, I don't know if I'm allowed to link to it but Google should help, he basically plagirized entire chunks from the Christchurch shooter's own manifesto.

Also, IDK what we're going to do about it since I doubt a source will pick up on it, but most of what it says about black people is objectively incorrect. I don't mean crime rates or IQ, which is just a racist opinoon based off a single, misinterpeted fact, the shooter claims he targetted black people and did what he did because of some "Blackies are invading white land" nonsense. It's one thing to whine about crime rates and how inferior we are compared to white people (Which is also bullshit) but his idea of comparing African-Americans to immigrants is both objectively and emotionally incorrect. Just felt the need to mention that.

Also a quick edit before anyone responds, he claims he was inspired by the Christchurch shooter. If any source picks up on those fact please add them to the article. June Parker (talk) 04:38, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The manifesto will be covered as WP:RS releases details. The above comment strikes me as somewhat WP:FORUM. Iamreallygoodatcheckers (talk) 04:42, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how. I'm requesting these details be prioritized once covered by RS June Parker (talk) 04:56, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Weapons List

I cannot see any citations, evidence or claims backing up the oddly very specific three weapons listed on this Wikipedia page. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 146.199.179.165 (talk) 04:40, 15 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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