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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by TheHaberProcess (talk | contribs) at 01:39, 8 August 2022. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good article nomineeRace and intelligence was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
June 14, 2005Articles for deletionKept
June 24, 2005Peer reviewReviewed
July 18, 2005Featured article candidateNot promoted
August 25, 2006Good article nomineeNot listed
December 4, 2006Articles for deletionKept
April 11, 2011Articles for deletionKept
February 24, 2020Deletion reviewOverturned
February 29, 2020Articles for deletionKept
Current status: Former good article nominee

Does the FAQ above this talk page need more citation?

I think the FAQ above this talk page need more citation. GUT412454 (talk) 10:42, 4 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ashkenazi intelligence

Ok, so I read this pathetic outpour in the 'net about how wikipedia is wrong and blahblah. And also that it censores science. I wouldn't want to see Wikipedia censor science, so I decided to take a look.

In a deletion discussion (one of many), there was one very sound argument for deleting it: the same could be covered by Race and Intelligence, and should be, since not every fringe theory deserves its own page. All good. HOWEVER, this page doesn't mention the theory at all! So, on to find if the scientific sources listed in a late version of the article are found, here's four that seem prominent (peer-reviewed, published): [1] [2] [3] [4]

I think it would serve Wikipedia well to critique these sources, and salvage into this article what can be salvaged, about the clearly existing and notable "exceptional Ashkenazi genetic intelligence" theory.

-- Sigmundur (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC) Sigmundur (talk) 12:37, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You have linked a discussion from 2007, which closed as no consensus. I suggest you read the latest AfD discussion instead. [11]. AndyTheGrump (talk) 12:54, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Quillette article you linked is, at the very best, dishonest. At worst, it's a steaming pile of bullshit used to advocate racism. Happy (Slap me) 13:12, 19 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quillette, per WP:RSP, is not a reliable source for facts. Obviously we're not going to change our articles in response to their opinions. The sources you've published are largely fringe - the first one is a book review that specifically describes the book as unreliable and controversial, summarizing its argument as limited and biased. The second barely intelligence, and only in passing. The third is the very book that your first source dismisses as trash. The final one is... Richard Lynn, most notable for his work at Mankind Quarterly, the journal of scientific racism. This is the sort of unreliable, unscientific nonsense you get when you search for sources to back up a culture-war-trash source like Quillette. If that's all you can drudge up in support of their nonsense, it's certainly not notable. --Aquillion (talk) 18:32, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oh god, I came here to talk about this very thing and it looks like someone was already doing it. Does anyone know why there is no mention of Ashklenazi Jews in this article? Also, in the section on test scores, I think we should differentiate between South Asians and East Asians. Asian is a term that is too broad, it encompasses everyone from Syrians to Koreans.TheHaberProcess (talk) 18:11, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you should not just check that somebody is discussing this but also read what they write? They write that the sources are crap. Without useable sources, we cannot mention the subject. The same holds for Asians. --Hob Gadling (talk) 18:51, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just noticed that this was a bit unfair since the last contribution saying the sources are crap was newer than the "oh god" contribution. Still, there you have the reason. --Hob Gadling (talk) 19:01, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
When I added it I added it with this source[5]. It looks OK to me. I also found it odd the article does not mention Ashkenazi Jews at all because our are widely debated by people who study this.
That's a passing mention in a book review (again). These sorts of sources just don't support the assertion that this is an important aspect of the subject. --Aquillion (talk) 20:34, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Originally I cited Forbes, I did not quite understand why it was not reliable in this context. But there is a plethora of sources, forgive me, I just put the links because proper formatting is too much work, but :
Vox: https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2019/12/30/21042733/bret-stephens-jewish-iq-new-york-times
AEI: https://www.aei.org/articles/the-2011-nobel-prize-and-the-debate-over-jewish-iq/
NYT: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/27/opinion/jewish-culture-genius-iq.html
Also, it is important that we talk about Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, because there are so many anti-semitic conspiracy theories out there based on the overrepresentation of the Jews high positions, but that is shown to be bonkers once you simply control for IQ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by TheHaberProcess (talk • contribs) 20:48, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Please read Wikipedia:Reliable sources. For content concerning scientific topics, we don't cite Vox, the American Enterprise Institute, or op-eds in the NYT. And no, it isn't even remotely necessary to 'control for IQ' to refute antisemitic conspiracy theories, any more than it is necessary to 'control for the non-existence of shape-shifting lizards' to refute similar theories concerning the New World Order, the Illuminati, or mind-control through 5G WiFi. AndyTheGrump (talk) 21:05, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
But Vox and NYTimes are already cited in this article. And I think your example proves my point, it is precisely because shape-shifting lizards do not exist that those conspiracy theories are bonkers. I think your example is more about the fact that most people already know that those lizards do not exist, so there is no need to even mention it to show to most people those theories are silly. In the case of Ashkenazi Jewish intelligence, this is well known among ourselves, but the public at large is not so well informed. If they were though, they would have a retort when some nutjob comes to them talking about how X or Y percent of the bankers are Jewish. TheHaberProcess (talk) 21:37, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Here is just another couple of examples of how salient this topic is, among psychologists, and among ourselves.
Jordan Peterson: https://www.jpost.com/diaspora/right-wing-personality-on-jewish-question-ashkenazim-have-high-iq-547159
Stephen Pinker: https://newrepublic.com/article/77727/groups-and-genes
TheHaberProcess (talk) 21:46, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This article does not exist to refute conspiracy theories, especially ones unrelated or tangentially-related to intelligence, and it is an insult to our intelligence that editors would believe that is the reason it is proposed to include content about the intelligence of Ashkenazi Jews. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:06, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I still do not understand why you guys are against inclusion of this content. The topic has been discussed in a wide range of sources, a lot of which seem very OK to me, some of whom are cited in this very article. And the topic is not tangentially-related, it is at the core of the issue. An article about race and intelligence should mention the most intelligent race, just as an article about dog breed intelligence would be remiss if there was no mention of the border collie.TheHaberProcess (talk) 22:22, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Quillette article

Pretty fun. https://quillette.com/2022/07/18/cognitive-distortions/ - Peregrine Fisher (talk) 04:30, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

See the section above. --Hob Gadling (talk) 05:55, 26 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Short description

Our article's prior short description was: "Discussions and claims of differences in intelligence along racial lines."

I edited it to to read: "Differences in average intelligence between races."

My explanation: "Per WP:VIA WP:VAI, replaced vague, unhelpful, and musteline short description… Removed "discussions of" as this is an encyclopedia article. Removed "along racial lines" as it's unnecessarily vague. Removed "claims of" in accordance with WP:NPOV, MOS:DOUBT, and MOS:CLAIM—while the cause(s) may remain controversial, expert consensus has long acknowledged significant differences, as measured by IQ."

Three minutes later, my edit was summarily reverted, with the sole explanation: "nope - we don't assert as fact minority-opinion claims." The reverting editor initiated no discussion on the Talk page, offered no explanation of what these "minority-opinion claims" might be, and blithely ignored the guidance in WP:REVONLY while wholesale reverting my tripartite edit and explanation.

As I'd written in my explanation, the fact that there are differences in average tested intelligence between racial groups is the majority, consensus view. The text of our article makes this abundantly clear:

  • "In the US, individuals identifying themselves as Asian generally tend to score higher on IQ tests than Caucasians, who tend to score higher than Hispanics, who tend to score higher than African Americans."
  • "...differences in average test performance between racial groups were observed…"
  • "A 2001 meta-analysis of the results of 6,246,729 participants tested for cognitive ability or aptitude found a difference in average scores between black people and white people of 1.1 standard deviations. Consistent results were found for college and university application tests such as the Scholastic Aptitude Test (N = 2.4 million) and Graduate Record Examination (N = 2.3 million), as well as for tests of job applicants in corporate settings (N = 0.5 million) and in the military (N = 0.4 million)."
  • The article cites the Intelligence: Knowns and Unknowns report to establish the "consensus" that differences in intelligence between races exist: "Regarding group differences, the report reaffirmed the consensus that differences within groups are much wider than differences between groups." The report itself is specific about those differences: "African American IQ scores have long averaged about 15 points below those of Whites, with correspondingly lower scores on academic achievement tests."

Indeed, the entire article is about, as I succinctly summarized: "Differences in average intelligence between races." While much of the article is devoted to deconstructing the terms and meanings of "race" and "intelligence" while promulgating a minority view that none of the differences in average intelligence between races could possibly be genetic in origin—nowhere does our article reference any consensus that differences in average intelligence between racial groups do not exist or that their existence is merely a "minority-opinion claim". Indeed, the exact opposite is true.

I welcome input regarding our short description—but the mealy-mouthed one that is there now serves our article poorly, and contradicts a host of Wikipedia guidance. Thanks! ElleTheBelle 16:32, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Test results are not the same as intelligence. Your edit summary made it seem like a difference in intelligence really existed. And we already had this discussion about three or four hundred times on this talk page, so other editors with more patience may reply to you again, but I won't. Rsk6400 (talk) 16:55, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
First, my error above: I meant WP:VAI (not WP:AVI), and in the context of WP:SDESC—guidance over which the current short description runs roughshod.
Second, if you read my "edit summary", you know that I wrote: "...expert consensus has long acknowledged significant differences, as measured by IQ." That said, can you point me to some of the more significant of these 400-odd discussions of the WP:SDESC for this article?
Third, the expert consensus is that intelligence tests measure human intelligence—that's hardly a "minority-opinion claim", but rather the long-accepted scientific view. Quibbling over what "intelligence" means doesn't change that simple fact. That being said, I have no problem with "Racial groups differ in average intelligence, as measured by intelligence tests." The last clause is superfluous, as intelligence tests are the only scientifically accepted method for testing and comparing intelligence—so it seems an odd thing on which to insist. And if one really believed in the distinction, wouldn't one advocate for the article to be titled "Race and intelligence-test scores"? Nevertheless, perhaps that's a reasonable compromise which comports with WP:SDESC? Thanks! ElleTheBelle 22:25, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The article is more than about average differences in intelligence between racial groups. Onetwothreeip (talk) 22:02, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]
What else is it "about", exactly? Thanks! ElleTheBelle 22:27, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, there is precisely zero chance that you are going to persuade the community to allow you to present WP:RACISTBELIEFS in Wikivoice. There is no scientific rationale for defining intelligence as "what IQ tests measure" any more than there is for defining the intrinsic worth of a human being in terms of their Net worth. The consensus is that IQ measures some aspects of intelligence, but if you think that translates into a consensus that some races are more or less intelligent than others then you are simply, profoundly mistaken. Generalrelative (talk) 01:17, 8 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Asian Intelligence in the US

I think in the section on test scores we should differentiate between South Asians and East Asians. The term Asian is way too broad. For example, the section speaks about the average scores for Asians and Caucasians, but South Asians are technically Caucasians. TheHaberProcess (talk) 22:43, 7 August 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  1. ^ Wills, Christopher (February 11, 2009). "Review: The 10,000 Year Explosion by Gregory Cochran and Henry Harpending". New Scientist. 201 (2695): 46–47. doi:10.1016/S0262-4079(09)60457-7.
  2. ^ Bray, Steven M.; Jennifer G. Mulle, Anne F. Dodd, Ann E. Pulver, Stephen Wooding, and Stephen T. Warren. "Signatures of founder effects, admixture, and selection in the Jewish population", Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 14 September 2010; 107(37): 16222–16227. doi:10.1073/pnas.1004381107
  3. ^ G. Cochran, J. Hardy, H. Harpending. "Natural History of Intelligence" Archived September 11, 2013, at the Wayback Machine, Journal of Biosocial Science 38 (5), pp. 659–693 (2006), University of Utah
  4. ^ Lynn, R. and Longley, D. (2006). "On the high intelligence and cognitive achievements of Jews in Britain." Intelligence, 34, 541–547.
  5. ^ "The IQ Wars Reconsidered" (PDF). Contemporary Sociology. 10-15 points IQ advantage of Ashkenazi Jews
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