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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 73.93.5.246 (talk) at 22:53, 10 May 2023. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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May 8

Out, damned hyphen

Nominator's rationale: C2A stales; all are the same obvious grammatical error of MOS:HYPHEN: Avoid using a hyphen after a standard -ly adverb (a newly available home, a wholly owned subsidiary). All others in Special:Search/Category:intitle:fully protected are correctly unhyphenated. Note prior mass renaming/redirecting of category mishyphenations. 73.93.5.246 (talk) 23:05, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
vertically discussion
biologically discussion
fully discussion

Category:Rurikids

Nominator's rationale: merge, redundant category layer with only two subcategories (and soon only one). Marcocapelle (talk) 21:23, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that we don't need two redundant categories, but imo "Rurikids" should stays as "Rurik dynasty" is improper name (btw Rurik dynasty should be renamed). Marcelus (talk) 07:26, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I agree! Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:36, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Hah, you're suggesting what I've been meticulously preparing for some days. :) I've Template:Diffused both cats as far as possible, and what we're left with is two almost identical cats. Per WP:C2D Category:Rurik dynasty should be the name of the merged cat, but I think the word "dynasty" may be a bit unhelpful here, because it suggests everyone in it was a "dynast" or "ruler". en:wikt:dynasty defines it as A series of rulers or dynasts from one family. That means Olga of Kiev would, strictly speaking, fall outside the scope of "dynasty", because she was only a princess consort and then regent. More importantly, it would have to apply to every single person in the subcategories, which it doesn't. Therefore, a Reverse merge may be an even better idea. I think it may also be a good idea to rename the main article to "Rurikids" rather than "Rurik dynasty", but that may require an RM. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk)
(after edit conflict) Ah, I see Marcelus agrees with me. :) Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 07:35, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcelus Do you think we would need an WP:RM to rename Rurik dynasty to Rurikids? I'd be happy to initiate it. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 08:02, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I think we should, for the reasons I gave above and below Marcelus (talk) 19:21, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • That is an unexpected development. For what it is worth, I am quite sure that (nearly) all dynasty categories here on en.wp are used for the whole family, not just for the monarchs. Marcocapelle (talk) 15:31, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, this is a certain inaccuracy that everyone seems to collectively ignore. A dynasty strictly speaking is "a series of people from the same family holding the same office one after another." George VI, Elizabeth II and Charles III are part of the Windsor dynasty, but Prince William is not (yet), he is part of the "House of Windsor". That's why here we should name the category "Rurikids", "House of Rurik" or "Rurikovichi". Marcelus (talk) 19:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    You (@Marcocapelle) may be forgiven for the confusion, because I myself have also used "dynasty" and "(ruling/reigning/royal/imperial) house" interchangeably until recently, when such categorisations here on English Wikipedia stopped making sense to me (hahaha). The second meaning of en:wikt:dynasty is (East Asian history) The polity or historical era under the rule of a certain dynasty, which is much, much broader. I must confess that I first learnt about dynasties as a concept while I was exploring Chinese history right at the same time when I made my first edits on Wikipedia; as a matter of fact, my first 3 created articles ever were about Chinese dynasties! It may also be that the word dynastie in our native Dutch language isn't as specific as dynasty in English. My Koenen Woordenboek 2006 defines dynastie as vorstenhuis, regend huis. nl:wikt:dynastie provides an even broader definition: uitgebreide familie, inclusief aangetrouwde familie, die over twee of meer generaties invloed of macht heeft uitgeoefend, meestal in een land. So Prince William is not part of the Windsor dynasty, but he is part of the Windsor-dynastie! I'm just as confused as you. ;)
    As a cherry on the cake: Merriam-Webster defines dynasty as 1. a succession of rulers of the same line of descent, e.g. "a dynasty that ruled China for nearly 300 years". 2. a powerful group or family that maintains its position for a considerable time, e.g. "born into a powerful political dynasty." "a baseball dynasty" The latter definition is broader, but not necessarily one of monarchical hereditary succession, and doesn't even have to be political, but can be about baseball. This second M-W definition also aligns closely with the third definition given by en:wikt:dynasty: (sports) A team or organization which has an extended period of success or dominant performance. The broad Dutch definition of dynastie as "ruling house" beyond just the rulers themselves simply doesn't seem to exist in English.
    Final speculation: Last year, you and Fayenatic already renamed provincial "royal houses" in the Netherlands, Belgium and Germany to "ruling families". My guess is that these categories were perhaps misnamed because our Dutch vocabulary (vorstenhuis, dynastie etc.) seems to mismatch false friends used in English that have more specific or otherwise different meanings. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:12, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. I don't think adding Mussorgsky and Kropotkin to this category is such a brilliant idea. These things have been kept separate for a reason. Ghirla-трёп- 18:30, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, that might have been a good idea when you and No Free Nickname Left first created these categories in 2005 and 2007, but the past 18 years have shown that it hasn't worked. Before I began to fix the mess, people and subcategories were randomly placed in both categories all the time. That means the category names were not clear enough to describe their functions. It is just better to separate familial ties and dynastic positions anyway. E.g. Category:Monomakhovichi family describes everyone who directly descended from Vladimir II Monomakh, regardless of the position or "job" they had, and Category:Grand Princes of Kiev describes everyone who actually had the position or "job" of Grand Prince of Kiev, regardless of the family they belonged to. Perhaps the confusion was destined to happen. All we can do now is fix it. I've basically already done that, and this is the last step to complete the fixing. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:27, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    PS: If we actually want to visualise dynasties in the strict sense of "A series of rulers or dynasts from one family", lists do the job much better than categories anyway. Lists are series of items put in a certain order (in this case chronologically), categories are unsorted groups of items that have something in common (and the default sorting of items in Wikipedia categories is alphabetically). Lists of (mostly) "Rurikid" rulers already exist, like grouped in Category:Noble titles of Kievan Rus, the difference being that the principality rather than the family defines the list, and ruling families can switch. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:32, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • (as nominator) I do not have an objection to reverse merge. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:53, 10 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:SVG Bleiburg players

Nominator's rationale: No evidence that the club is notable, plays in the fourth tier of Austrian football. There is no article for the club on English wiki. Geregen2 (talk) 19:34, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Belgrano de Parana footballers

Nominator's rationale: No evidence that the club is notable, plays in the fourth tier of Argentinian football, no article in English wiki. Geregen2 (talk) 19:30, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Daughters of the Grand Prince of Kiev

Nominator's rationale: WP:C2E WP:C2B I just created this category myself, but then realised that the convention in Category:Daughters of monarchs is that the latter should be in plural. Btw I'm not sure whether 'Grand Princes' should be capital or lowercase G and P in this case. I wouldn't mind either way. Cheers, Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 19:02, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Recurring events

Nominator's rationale: delete and merge per WP:SMALLCAT. Most do not need any merging because they are already in YYYY establishments tree and Festivals established in century tree. –Aidan721 (talk) 18:09, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Festivals established in the 12th century

Nominator's rationale: Merge per WP:SMALLCAT –Aidan721 (talk) 17:02, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:New Latin-language poets

Nominator's rationale: The main article Neo-Latin has been renamed to be consistent with current research into the topic, which uses the term Neo-Latin rather than New Latin. Renaming the category would match general practice. Additionally Neo-Latin poetry is a commonly researched topic, so this would be a natural and conventional term. (Apologies for starting the process as I wasn't aware of it; I should have realised.) Jim Killock (talk) 16:38, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Industrial buildings

Nominator's rationale: To match Category:Buildings and structures and to reflect the contents of the category. For example, neither an oil platform nor a windmill are buildings but both are located in this category. User:Namiba 15:50, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Companies based in Winchester, Massachusetts

Nominator's rationale: Per WP:SMALLCAT (1 article). User:Namiba 15:28, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Buildings and structures in West Tisbury, Massachusetts

Nominator's rationale: Small cat (1 article) which is already in the appropriate subcategories. User:Namiba 15:25, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Music festivals by date of establishment

Nominator's rationale: delete and merge per WP:SMALLCAT. –Aidan721 (talk) 15:05, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:West Sumatra sportspeople

Nominator's rationale: Both categories have the same intention Stvbastian (talk) 13:52, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Kievan Rus' nuns

Nominator's rationale: Follow-up "Kievan Rus' people" > "People from Kievan Rus'" etc. and other People from Fooland precedents. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 12:28, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Futher comment, renaming is especially useful here because Kievan Rus' was not a country in modern sense (as the current name suggests) but rather a geographical concept referring to all principalities that once belonged to Kiev and were mostly ruled by various branches of the Rurik dynasty. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:58, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Well yeah, I mostly agree, except that I would call it a political rather than geographical concept. It was just as real, but just as divided, decentralised and disintegrative as the Holy Roman Empire. Like the HRE, Kievan Rus' was dysfunctional whenever there was no strong central monarchy, or otherwise a significantly institutionalised federal state/government whose unity and capacity to function wouldn't depend on the presence of a capable monarch and a smooth, peaceful transfer of power. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:48, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Second comment, for princesses as spouses of ruling princes, the preposition "in" might be a bit more appropriate than "from", but I do not think that the category is limited to spouses of rulers, so never mind about that. Marcocapelle (talk) 02:58, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle Exactly. I also thought "in" was a good solution for a while, but these princesses (and princes) weren't necessarily tied to Kievan Rus' in a physical or legal sense. "Princess" can also just refer to a daughter of the Grand Prince of Kiev who is married off to a stranger to strengthen his alliance with Poland. The only "Kievan Rus'" thing about her at that point is that she was originally from Kievan Rus'. The rename proposal thus describes her better. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 22:54, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Balinese sportspeople

Nominator's rationale: Both categories have the same intention Stvbastian (talk) 12:08, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Unpopulated villages in Turkey

Nominator's rationale: More accurate as the populations were forcibly removed. "Unpopulated" is a more vague term here. Semsûrî (talk) 10:12, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Rostislavichi family

Nominator's rationale: To avoid confusion with Category:Rostislavichi family (Smolensk). The progenitor was Rostislav of Tmutarakan. Nederlandse Leeuw (talk) 10:03, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:NUManimation

Nominator's rationale: Capitalization TheDarkX (talk) 04:21, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Time loop

Nominator's rationale: Retain naming scheme of parent category, Category:Fiction about time travel. Ystapnivri (talk) 07:56, 29 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CLYDE TALK TO ME/STUFF DONE (please Reply to icon mention me on reply) 03:48, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:List of AA Films distributed Hindi Dubbed films

Nominator's rationale: Non-defining WP:NONDEF, trivial WP:TRIVIALCAT — DaxServer (t · m · c) 11:49, 25 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: The category name is obviously malformed, but would like to see if there's a landing spot for films by distributer.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, bibliomaniac15 02:02, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • RE: "by distributor" - categorisation of films is, in my estimation, rather messy on that front. Films which are only distributed by a studio (even if they are not produced by the studio), seem to be categorized under the subcats of: Category:Films by studio. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a good idea or not, just merely that it seems to be current practice. I looked around, and I don't see a separate "by distributor" tree. - jc37 17:20, 9 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Soviet emigrants

Nominator's rationale: Per form of the parent Category:Emigrants from former countries. Laurel Lodged (talk) 13:25, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26 (spin me / revolutions) 00:13, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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