Jump to content

Talk:France

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Emphrase (talk | contribs) at 09:48, 13 August 2023 (→‎Emblem). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:Vital article

Former good article nomineeFrance was a Geography and places good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
August 3, 2020Good article nomineeNot listed
In the newsA news item involving this article was featured on Wikipedia's Main Page in the "In the news" column on September 19, 2012.

Too long?

There's been a "too long" tag on this article since June, but the article is already split into many many sub-articles and I don't actually see scope for significantly reducing the length of the article without significantly reducing its utility. The tag should go. Furius (talk) 23:06, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The presence of sub-articles is a good indicator that text should be moved there. The article is over double our usual rule of thumb. The table of contents takes up multiple screens. CMD (talk) 23:17, 2 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, but what specifically would you move? The article should still provide short summaries here of the sub-articles and I just don't see space for making those summaries shorter. Removing whole sections in order to reduce the length of the table of contents would make it harder for users to find the sub-articles that they are actually interested in.
Articles for well-sourced countries with long histories regularly exceed our rule of thumb. This article is a similar length to United States, Russia, Greece, and is shorter than United Kingdom and Italy. Furius (talk) 10:43, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If anything is to go, I'm thinking the Climate section could be cut to a short paragraph with the details moving to a new Climate of France; many of the Culture subsections could be cut down; and some detail could be removed from the Military section. Largoplazo (talk) 11:38, 3 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, you're right that the climate section is ripe for cutting. If anything were salvageable, I'd be inclined to move it to the Geography of France article. I've made some cuts to the military section Furius (talk) 18:01, 5 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I've done that now. Can anyone see any more areas that could be cut back? Furius (talk) 09:21, 8 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Dude, this article is so long, that if I read it aloud, I would take way over an hour to finish! Of course there is gonna be a tag saying too long! Read this as fast as you can aloud and time it, then reply to @Odin&Sleipnir to tell me how long it took and about how many times you stumbled while reading it. -_- Odin&Sleipnir (talk) 17:02, 25 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This page has more than 130kB or readable prose: it is grossly overlength. Given that there are already separate history, geography, politics, economiy, demographics and culture child articles, all of these section can be trimmed liberally. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:10, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are so many articles longer than this one, shouldn’t all of them get tagged too? France is one of the most popular articles on Wikipedia, and why have the ugly too long tag on it but not on many longer articles?SaturatedFatts (talk) 21:28, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
So tag the other articles. Put the tag on this one to invite people to cut it down to a reasonable size. There are reasons why, for the benefit of the readers, there's a recommended maximum size. Largoplazo (talk) 21:35, 1 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good idea Odin&Sleipnir (talk) 13:06, 4 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have seen "too long" tags appearing on the top of various articles. There were no problems of such kind before the hideous Wikipedia:Vector 2022 was imposed. Is the new design the reason why now many articles are perceived as being too long? Æo (talk) 11:30, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps, but WP:TOOLONG hasn't actually changed during the same time span, so any article too long now was presumably too long then also. Vector has simply made it more obvious due to the narrower page column. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:38, 12 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This article is now smaller than United Kingdom, is the tag still necessary? 2603:9001:E01:5E62:2CCA:120F:AB67:575 (talk) 15:14, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. The important metric for size is readable prose rather than raw byte count; by this measure, it remains significantly longer than the UK article. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:17, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I feel as though the UK, as a whole, would have a lot more to talk about than France... any other thoughts on this? X Odin&Sleipnir (talk) 04:40, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FYI I set up a topic about France's history (of course), if anyone is interested? At the bottom. ⇩⇓↓⇩⇓↓⇩⇓↓ Odin&Sleipnir (talk) 04:52, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That has been peremptorily closed and archived. WP is not a general forum for discussion of things like which country has the more interesting history.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:16, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I never typed out anything that compared which country has a more interesting history... I only typed about how fascinating France's history was to me. <(-_-)> -'sigh' Odin&Sleipnir (talk) 15:28, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The article size is down about 25% since this discussion was started. Given that we have a mature child article on the History of France, the 57kb § History section here with nine subsections probably could be significantly trimmed. The other major subtopics, § Geography, § Government and politics, § Economy, § Demographics, § Culture, all have child articles and could be trimmed as well.
On the other hand, History of France is longer than this article is, and is not tagged for length. A lot of times on such discussions about length I see a lot of pushback, based on the idea that WP:SIZESPLIT is neither a policy nor a guideline, and we should just ignore it and use common sense. I think I'd worry more about what is best for our readers, rather than some numbers in a table that have not changed in 15 years when technology was more limiting. The sectioning and subsectioning of the article is ample and clear, and makes it easy to navigate the page, contrary to one assertion in the tag. Unless there's a specific argument for how trimming this article would help readers, I think I could support removing the tag at this point. Mathglot (talk) 19:08, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
At least fix the lead. Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Lead section#LengthMoxy- 22:41, 2 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What would you remove from the lead? Furius (talk) 13:57, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
¯∨( ˘~˘ )∨¯ ~~~? Odin&Sleipnir (talk) 14:50, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Easy to start with two of the three paragraphs dedicated to History. CMD (talk) 15:00, 3 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Include Paris Commune in the history section.

Why is the Paris Commune not mentioned after the mention of the establishment of the 3rd Republic? Seems like a pretty significant event in the history of France. 69.9.128.178 (talk) 01:05, 23 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Probably because this article is already over-long (see thread above), and there are other French history articles that can go into details.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:17, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

2023 Gdp PPP estimate

3,872,729 Billions USD for the year 2023 58.830 USD per capita (2023 estimate) (source :IMF) 2A01:CB06:8037:C424:6813:2298:3CD7:65E9 (talk) 16:03, 9 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of map

France and its region.png

On 00:21, 23 June 2023, User:SnowieLuna1212 removed the map File:France and its region.png, with the explanation, "Unneeded PNG map".

There is one other map ({{France Regions Labelled Map}}) that shows the immediate region of France but its focus and purpose is to show the inside regions of France, not its surrounding region. It doesn't provide enough of a regional context of France as the removed map whose purpose is to actually show the context of France in Europe with the names of the places.

I created the removed map because when I came to the page the existing maps in the infobox didn't provide enough information or idea as to France in its region. The average reader limit themselves to the lead and infobox and won't be looking through all the article for a map of France. Therefore I propose to keep both maps, restoring the removed one to where it was. Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 03:24, 11 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, this makes sense to me. Mathglot (talk) 07:12, 20 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
while yes it makes sense, it is a poor map that honestly is not needed, just put the template in the switcher map instead of a poorly detailed map. SnowieLuna1212 (talk) 15:03, 21 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@SnowieLuna1212 Can you specify what you found poor in the map? Thanks. Thinker78 (talk) 03:45, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@SnowieLuna1212 Per WP:TALKDONTREVERT, "The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever." Regards, Thinker78 (talk) 21:42, 22 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support keeping both maps. It's intensely frustrating to come to a major geography article and find either a broader-geographical-context map or an internal-divisions map missing. Both are important encyclopedic information. And SVG fetishism is tedious; there is no guideline or policy support for deleting images because they are in PNG format.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:11, 23 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Emblem

The only discussion for the emblem is Talk:France/Archive_6#Emblem. I don't see any justification of usage of this emblem because is simply appears on the passport. French constitution says The national emblem shall be the blue, white and red tricolour flag. That's it. Similarly Lebanon has no official emblem as well. Both should be removed like Turkey example. Beshogur (talk) 18:03, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This resembles the argument that has been voiced in other discussions that certain countries don't have a capital because one isn't designated in their constitutions. Countries had emblems and capitals long before countries had constitutions or thought to declare their capitals or emblems in them. In addition, there's more to a country's official designations than what can be found in their constitutions. If the constitution were the sole determining factor, then the United States would have neither an official flag nor an official currency. But, certainly, it does.
Largoplazo (talk) 23:19, 12 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
As was mentioned in that previous discussion, it seems significant that the fr.wiki page for France uses the emblem. This suggests a general consensus that it is something like a coat-of-arms. Furius (talk) 00:47, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sources pls National symbols of France? Moxy- 01:20, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There's a brief English account on the website of the French presidency: [1] Further sources are cited in the fr.wiki article, Emblèmes_de_la_France, but I don't have access to them. Furius (talk) 08:21, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also note the discussion of this edit request last year. Emphrase (talk) 09:48, 13 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:France&oldid=1170132565"