Talk:Dwain Chambers

Dwain Chambers has been listed as one of the Sports and recreation good articles under the good article criteria. If you can improve it further, please do so. If it no longer meets these criteria, you can reassess it.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
August 16, 2008	Peer review	Reviewed
August 27, 2008	Featured article candidate	Not promoted
September 10, 2008	Good article nominee	Listed

Current status: Good article

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Redirect for Name

Can someone put a redirect for his first name as it has many alternative spellings- it took me a long time to find this page. So redirects for "duaine" "dwayne" would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lordy Why Have You Foresaken Me (talk • contribs) 18:46, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Done. --Eastlygod (talk) 23:13, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rugby

Is this an early April fools joke? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.156.195.247 (talk) 21:30, 31 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Amazingly it is not.GordyB (talk) 12:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Banned from representing UK in Olympics

If he's convinced he's the fastest man in the world he should take the test to independant testers of authority both in drugs and timing. Testing bodies could provide their services in lieu of sponsorship. Are there testers of authority outside athletic "authorities"?. If the man is now clean of drugs he should be given a chance. But it must be said it may be hard without the direct opposition. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.1.182.202 (talk) 03:11, 19 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Dwain Chambers/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Hi, I will be reviewing this article for GA. I have read it and think that it is a very good article, well written and well referenced. I will add comments. below. —Mattisse (Talk) 23:31, 7 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to clarify, all the records, etc., under Achievements have been removed from him?
- The achievements are just those that aren't annulled (as noted beneath each table). This is why there is a five year gap from 2001-2006.
I wonder if there is not a way to incorporate the information under Personal life elsewhere in the article in order to avoid having such a small section. You have mentioned where he was raised elsewhere.
- Perhaps I could remove the section? I have some information about him having to borrow money from his wife to pay track fees so I could place the son/wife info within the body there. Sound like a good idea to you? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 12:22, 8 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, since you have weaved other personal information in various places in the article.

Drugs ban should be Drug ban.
I think this article is close to a GA right now. However, if you are looking to improve the article for a possible FAC (with its stricter requirements) then a reorganization might be helpful. The article is somewhat difficult to follow. Everything is under Biography except the small Achievements section. Actually, Chamber's life can be broken down into periods, for example pre and post drug ban period, subsequent period. Perhaps looking at the article in terms of the periods of his life would be useful. It is hard for someone like me, who is not familiar with all his records, to keep track of what is going on. Giving more guidelines in terms of orienting section headings might help.
There is the story of his athletic records but there is also the story of his personal experience, including the drug-related bans and the fallout from that. For an athlete, that is quite a story.

Fixed title to drug ban. In terms of layout I intended to separate the sections as such – the Biography featuring the main body and the achievements section including statistics and discussing his career as a whole. This was intended to form the "system of hierarchical headings" expected of FA articles but if you have any suggestions as to how to improve it I'm very open to any changes. What parts in particular cause you to lose track of what's happening? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 20:41, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I understand what you are saying. I think the article is fine for a GA. Other suggestions I will put on the article talk page.

GA review (see here for criteria)

It is reasonably well written.
a (prose): b (MoS):
It is factually accurate and verifiable.
a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
It is broad in its coverage.
a (major aspects): b (focused):
It follows the neutral point of view policy.
Fair representation without bias:
It is stable.
No edit wars etc.:
It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall:
Pass/Fail:

—Mattisse (Talk) 21:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Personal life

I asked you to remove the following section on Personal life, which you did. Now I am thinking that you should put it back, as there is a discussion going on that every athelete should have a personal life section. (I copied this from an older version of the article):

--Personal life--

Dwain Anthony Chambers was born on 5 April 1978 in Islington, London and is of Afro-Caribbean descent.^[1]^[2]^[3] Chambers met his partner Leonie Daley, a civil servant, at the Miss Jamaica UK competition.^[4]^[5] Together they have one child: a boy named Skye who was born in September 2005.^[6] Chambers keeps a selection of cuttings about his fall from grace and the BALCO scandal in order to show his son the risks of drug abuse when he is older.^[7]

^ "Chambers lays down the law - now a judge must decide if drug cheat Dwain can take his place at Beijing Olympics". Daily Mail. 2008-07-12. Retrieved 2008-07-19. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
^ "Dwain Chambers Profile". BBC Sport. 2004-02-24. Retrieved 2008-07-19. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
^ Cooke, Rachel (2002-07-07). "New kid on the blocks". The Observer. Retrieved 2008-07-19. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
^ Wilson, Neil (2006-06-28). "Returning Dwain to show Skye his limits". The Daily Mail. Retrieved 2008-08-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
^ Gallagher, Brendan (2008-03-05). "Dwain Chambers: I almost wrecked my life". The Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 2008-07-18. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
^ Mackay, Duncan (2008-03-09). "Coming Clean". The Observer. Retrieved 2008-07-19. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)
^ Turnbull, Simon (2006-06-28). "Athletics: One step at a time for repentant Chambers". The Independent. Retrieved 2008-08-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

Sorry! —Mattisse (Talk) 23:10, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Every biography should include personal life information (provided such info is known). A biography is about a person's whole life, not just their career. There is no reason for sportspeople's bios to omit such info. Would anyone claim that biographies of actors, singers, artists, writers, philosophers, politicians etc shouldn't mention the subject's personal life? Nietzsche 2 (talk) 17:33, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Athletics pariah

I reverted the change from titling a section "Athletics pariah" to "Return to Athletics". Not only is this heading already used, preventing quick linking, but I feel the current name is accurate. A "pariah" is a an outcast, someone largely disapproved of, I believe this to be an accurate portrayal of the situation (as a returning "drug cheat" as the media frequently describe him) and only reflects common POV. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 19:46, 1 February 2009 (UTC) (Sorry, forgot to sign this first time around and has been reverted again. Can we discuss this?)[reply]

'pariah' is an extremely emotive word conveying much more than being an outcast or disapproved of and it is hard to argue that use of such a term is of no reflection on chambers himself. it is clearly not npov. further, the reaction against chambers return was not entirely negative and he was far from an outcast, being selected and allowed to run in top level competitions: http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/dec/29/drugsinsport-olympicsathletics for example, or google for further info.

wikipedia is not for judging people for what they've done - try changing the section title for Sol Campbell's move from Arsenal to Spurs to 'Football Judas' and see how far it gets you! 'Second Return to Athletics' or the like conveys the information perfectly neutrally without straying into libellous or npov tags Wikipedia:Neutral point of view for more info. Jw2035 (talk) 00:27, 2 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think that comparing this to saying "Football Judas" is a little strange and a bit of a straw-man argument but perhaps "pariah" is too emotive. On the other hand: Your reference has absolutely no bearing upon the section—the section follows how he was refused permission to compete at track meets by promoters and his funding was withdrawn by Eddie Kulukundis. Also, he endured criticism from peers (Kelly Holmes is cited here but she was one of many). He then considered doing Rugby as an alternative. This is what the "Athletics pariah"/"Second return" section consists of. Your reference details events 9 months afterwards, when things turned to his favour (read in the article from "The hierarchy of UK Athletics changed...". As a compromise I propose a change from the flaccid "Second Return to Athletics" to "Back to the track", a little more punchy. What do you think? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 02:35, 2 February 2009 (UTC) (PS for future reference–it's polite to discuss changes first)[reply]

As this post was never responded to by Jw2035 and he just changed your suggestion without comment, I'm reasonably happy to change it back to the title suggested here. I agree with your earlier comments about the use of the word 'pariah', but understand Jw2035's thoughts. Second Return to Athletics is quite weak as a sub-title, though I'm unsure of whether a 'newspaper headline' style is commonly used throughout Wikipedia. Alternately, you could use Athletics Again as an alliterative sub-title. What do you think? Fol de rol troll (talk) 00:03, 17 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Doping should be in lead paragraph

The fact that he is a drug cheat should be in the lead paragraph as this is important. Hiding it down in the third paragraph is disingenuous. Other drug cheats such as Marion Jones and Ben Johnson (sprinter) have it in the opening lines. --Bob (talk) 22:28, 9 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is not hidden in the third paragraph. It is summarised in the second paragraph, forming half the word count in that paragraph. Perhaps I should point out why fans/peers were hostile in the third paragraph? To state that he has taken drugs before even mentioning what events he does leads the reader into making a judgement.

The difference with Johnson and Jones is that their most notable results (Olympic gold medals and world records) were achieved while using steroids. Jones has done nothing notable since her drug ban other than commit a number of crimes. Johnson denied his original steroid abuse but went on to test positive for steroids twice more. Chambers has done a number of notable things after his ban (Rugby/American football/Biography) including a new European record. These aspects deserve as much weighting as his drug ban. I'm reverting you again: the current phrasing suggests that he is not currently running as a clean athlete. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 05:14, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rewritten lead. Is that better? Sillyfolkboy (talk) 05:45, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He is not running as a clean athlete. He has taken drugs to enhance his performance and he is still profiting from his cheating. --Bob (talk) 07:29, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is merely your point of view. He has been rigorously tested as clean and there has been no empirical evidence that he is profiting from the past abuse. Furthermore, there is no conclusive proof that taking steroids actually enhances a sprinter's performance—in fact many of the world's best sprinters do not have overly muscular physiques (Bolt, Powell, Gay, Collins but to name a few). If you wish to continue with this train of thought I suggest you find some reliable sources to back up your claims. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 16:27, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Or just don't respond to my comments Bob and change it to what you want a few months later. Regardless, I still think my point stands. He is notable for his sprinting first and foremost, then his doping. It was hardly as if the doping info was concealed or not prominent in the first place. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits)^{Join WikiProject Athletics!} 10:51, 26 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm taking the doping out of the first sentence again. I think Roman Polanski is a good parallel. That article doesn't start "Roman Polanski is a film director, producer, writer, and child molester", but it does not seek to avoid the issue. The intro I have written mirrors this balanced style. Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits)^{Join WikiProject Athletics!} 13:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Future rework

I will be looking to change the way that the article is written following the release of his autobiography. Previously the article revealed his drug abuse at the same point as it was revealed to the public. The new information from the book should be able to help show how things started, and what went on behind closed doors. Sillyfolkboy (talk) 00:15, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Autobiography

What is the policy on describing ghostwritten autobiographies? He is described in the article as having 'published' his autobiography, but the publisher has publicly stated on several occasions that it was ghostwritten. (eg: On the front page of the publisher's website!)

It seems incorrect for Wikipedia to refer to the book as an 'autobiography' - it is a biography written by a ghostwriter in third person. And it isn't really a ghost-writer either, when the publisher announces publicly that it is ghost-written! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.44.141.226 (talk) 02:10, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmmm. Interesting point. Does the book list the ghost writer? If so we'll put it in. If not, we'll leave it out to avoid confusion. It's funny because even books titled like Gerrard: My Autobiography are ghost written! Sillyfolkboy (talk) 23:57, 22 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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[0-1] "Chambers lays down the law - now a judge must decide if drug cheat Dwain can take his place at Beijing Olympics". Daily Mail. 2008-07-12. Retrieved 2008-07-19. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

[Birthdate-2] "Dwain Chambers Profile". BBC Sport. 2004-02-24. Retrieved 2008-07-19. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

[Afrocarab-3] Cooke, Rachel (2002-07-07). "New kid on the blocks". The Observer. Retrieved 2008-07-19. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

[4] Wilson, Neil (2006-06-28). "Returning Dwain to show Skye his limits". The Daily Mail. Retrieved 2008-08-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

[5] Gallagher, Brendan (2008-03-05). "Dwain Chambers: I almost wrecked my life". The Daily Telegraph. Retrieved 2008-07-18. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

[Family-6] Mackay, Duncan (2008-03-09). "Coming Clean". The Observer. Retrieved 2008-07-19. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

[OneStep-7] Turnbull, Simon (2006-06-28). "Athletics: One step at a time for repentant Chambers". The Independent. Retrieved 2008-08-16. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Italic or bold markup not allowed in: |publisher= (help)

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