Talk:Napoleon

Proposal to shorten infobox

I think the infobox on this page is excessively long due to including so many of Napoleon's titles and offices, particularly since most of them are of lesser importance; his power and influence, as well as his legacy, comes from being ruler of France, not the other titles he granted himself. So I think the infobox would do fine with First Consul and Emperor, with everything else at the bottom of the page (indeed, not all his titles are even in the infobox to begin with). But at the very least, we could tuck these other offices and titles under collapsible sections: that would reduce the length and focus attention without getting rid of them entirely.

Here's what I mean:

Infobox, tucked away here due to length

Napoleon
The Emperor Napoleon in His Study at the Tuileries, by Jacques-Louis David, 1812
Emperor of the French
1st reign	18 May 1804 – 6 April 1814
Coronation	2 December 1804 Notre-Dame Cathedral
Predecessor	Louis XVII (disputed) or Louis XVI (as King of France) Himself (as First Consul of the French Republic)
Successor	Louis XVIII (as King of France)
2nd reign	20 March 1815 – 22 June 1815
Predecessor	Louis XVIII
Successor	Napoleon II (disputed) or Louis XVIII
First Consul of the French Republic
In office 12 December 1799 – 18 May 1804
Co-Consuls	Jean-Jacques-Régis de Cambacérès Charles-François Lebrun
Other regnal titles King of Italy Reign 17 March 1805 – 11 April 1814 Coronation 26 May 1805 Milan Cathedral Predecessor Charles V (1556) Successor Victor Emmanuel II (1861) Emperor of Elba Reign 11 April 1814 – 20 March 1815 King of Spain (interim) Reign 6 May – 6 June 1808 Predecessor Ferdinand VII Successor Joseph I Protector of the Confederation of the Rhine In office 12 July 1806 – 4 November 1813 Prince-Primates Karl von Dalberg Eugène de Beauharnais Predecessor Francis II (as Holy Roman Emperor) Successor Francis I of Austria (as Head of the Präsidialmacht Austria)
Other republican titles Provisional Consul of the French Republic In office 10 November 1799 – 12 December 1799 Co-Consuls Emmanuel Joseph Sieyès Roger Ducos Predecessor Louis-Jérôme Gohier (as President of the Directory of the French Republic) President of the Italian Republic In office 26 January 1802 – 17 March 1805 Vice President Francesco Melzi d'Eril
Born	Napoleone Buonaparte (1769-08-15)15 August 1769 Ajaccio, Corsica, Kingdom of France
Died	5 May 1821(1821-05-05) (aged 51) Longwood, Saint Helena
Burial	15 December 1840 Les Invalides, Paris, France
Spouses	Joséphine de Beauharnais ​ ​ (m. 1796; ann. 1810)​ Marie Louise of Austria ​ ​ (m. 1810; sep. 1814)​
Issue Detail	Napoleon II Charles, Count Léon Alexandre, Count Colonna-Walewski
Names Napoléon Bonaparte Regnal name Napoleon I
House	Bonaparte
Father	Carlo Buonaparte
Mother	Letizia Ramolino
Signature

What does everyone think: remove offices, collapse them or just leave it alone? — Kawnhr (talk) 19:01, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Would support removal. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:18, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

There are other problems with the info box. Napoleon's main titles were First Consul and, later, Emperor of the French Republic. The current info box has Louis XVI as Napoleon's "predecessor" as Emperor and Louis XVIII as his "successor". But "Emperor of France" was an entirely new institution created by Napoleon. There was no predecessor and no successor until Napoleon III. Napoleon did not consider himself a successor to Louis XVI and to suggest he was would have been a crime against the Republic. Similarly, the legitimists would have been outraged if anyone suggested that Louis XVIII was a successor to Napoleon, rather than the legitimate King who had been in exile. The problem is that historical facts have been distorted to fit a preconceived info box format rather than an info box tailored to accurately summarise historical facts. Rather than removing the other titles which Napoleon bestowed on himself (some of which, as far as I am aware, were recognised by other major powers in binding treaties) I suggest we remove all the information about predecessors and successors whenever a position held by Napoleon was a new institution created by Napoleon. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 04:56, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

That is a separate discussion. Feel free to start that instead. — Kawnhr (talk) 14:14, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

I disagree. The discussion is about making the info box more concise and we might as well consider all the related issues at once. I am suggesting we keep all Napoleon's titles but we don't "leave the info box alone". We remove the incorrect information about the Napoleon's predecessors and successors. It is posiible to walk and chew gum at the same time. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:11, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

When the conversation is so slow moving, I think it is best to keep it as focused as possible so that it doesn't turn into a situation of five people suggesting five different things, giving us a conversation where no consensus can be found. This is especially the case when proposing something relatively bold: listing de facto successors, for when offices are abolished and replaced, is common if not universal practice, so you're unlikely to find quick and easy consensus for your idea. That's why it'd be better as a separate discussion. — Kawnhr (talk) 21:46, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Well, we'll see what others think. As for saying Napoleon was the de facto successor of Louis XVI do you have a reliable source for that? Or a WP policy stating that falsifying history is common practice? Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:38, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

@Kawnhr I apologise for the cranky tone of my last comment. I still think the easiest way to make the info box more concise is to include a documented list of his actual titles rather than filling it with unsourced assertions regarding disputed predecessors and successors. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:03, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Why is it an either or issue? It can be collapsed and discussions on the titles can still continue. Napoleon had so many titles, that, one way or another, they are going to bloat the infobox if left uncollapsed, even with some concerted efforts towards paring down the more dubious entries. The predecessor/successor stuff under 'emperor' is indeed dubious though. Either that section needs to be "Ruler of France", and contain kings as predecessors and successors, or the kings need to go. It shouldn't say 'emperor' and have kings as predecessor and successor - because they are not those things to that specific title. Iskandar323 (talk) 05:11, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

Support collapsing. It leaves the infobox a lot cleaner, as it should be. Big improvement. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:49, 19 July 2023 (UTC)

OK, it's a month later and only a few people have weighed in, but since they were all both in favour or reducing the size in some fashion, I'm going to be a bit WP:BOLD and make the infobox collapsible. If anyone disagrees, feel free to resume the discussion. — Kawnhr (talk) 22:56, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

I think collapsing titles is a good idea. It fits information that doesn't integrate well into the article but is still notable. I dislike the current implementation, however and believe the old infobox was better. Cutting such a large amount of information should not have been done. I believe the old information should be readded. Legend of 14 (talk) 07:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE, the infobox is to summarise key information from the article. Key information is not just important but the most important. It also advises than less is often better. Just because an infobox has fields that can be filled, does not mean that these should be filled. We should remember that an infobox is a supplement to the lead and that it is unsuited to capturing nuance - eg such as the distinction between emperor and king. Also, my understanding is that drop-downs do not work on mobile platforms, so collapsible lists are not a good solution and create accessibility issues. My view is that we should be ruthless when it comes to what is or isn't in an infobox. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:50, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Do you have a concrete proposal to shorten the info box? I still say it is incorrect to say that King Louis XVI was Napoleon's predecessor and most of the pedecessor/successor stuff should be removed. I would be happy to start another topic on this, but I think we can probably reach a consensus on it here if people are prepared to say yes/no to the idea. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:41, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Just posted a WP:BOLD proposal to the article. You will see that I left Louis XVIII as successor reported after the first reign as Louis XVIII (as King of France). I didn't think it was necessary to add (as King of France) the second time. I thought it better to place First Consul of the French Republic first, to reflect the chronological order. The name stuff is pretty redundant as it appears in the first sentence of the lead in bold. His parents names are not the most important of information. If there are any questions re the rationale for the decisions I made, I would be happy to answer these. I expect my changes will not be to everyone's taste but they are consistent with P&G and (I think) a good starting point. Cinderella157 (talk) 01:24, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I support your changes. There is a b> symbol though after first reign. I'm not very good at source editing so might make things worse if I try to fix it. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 02:18, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

I also support your changes. I made a couple small edits, though: I think only mentioning (as King of France) once gives the impression that Louis took the Emperor of the French title the second time, so I restored the note, but as a footnote instead — takes up less space. I also removed the notes of his exiles, because Edward IV of England and Henry VI of England don't have similar explanations for their two reigns, so I figure Napoleon can do fine without it too. — Kawnhr (talk) 02:50, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Kawnhr, the king stuff is fine but I think the exiled stuff should be retained. It indicates succinctly why there were two reins. The where to is also pretty important IMHO - obviously Elba wasn't far enough. It is the sort of thing that every schoolboy/girl used to know. WP:OTHERTHINGS is never a good argument of itself. One needs to indicate why the other thing is better or worse. I don't see a field to give such an explanation (exiled or something else) perhaps this just didn't occur to those that fashioned the infobox for those two kings. The benefit and significance by far exceeds the decrease in concision by two lines - IMHO. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:32, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

OK, but I can't find a single example of an infobox listing this information. Louis XVIII doesn't mention his first reign ended after his flight during the Hundred Days. Ferdinand VII of Spain doesn't mention the circumstances that ended his first reign, nor do Constantine I of Greece, George II of Greece, Michael I of Romania, Mustafa I or Norodom Sihanouk. The editors on all these pages thought this information could be better covered in the body. I'm not making an appeal to "other things exist", but pointing to precedent and aiming for consistency. Some stuff exists for a reason, if you will. — Kawnhr (talk) 05:10, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

If some stuff exists for a reason, I'll respond with two questions. Is there a good reason why this isn't done elsewhere that also applies to this instance? Is there a good reason why this is a bad thing to do here? The editors on all these pages thought this information could be better covered in the body. We do not know what these editors thought. Perhaps a good way to add something similar did not occur to them or there was no good way in the other cases. The last dot-point at WP:Some stuff exists for a reason also applies. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:12, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

@Cinderella157: His parents names are not the most important of information. This is what you wrote when proposing to shorten the infobox, which could be true. While your efforts are greatly appreciated I fail to understand how adding literally two lines to the infobox is going to have an adverse effect on the article in general. This is a trivial matter considering the other issues found within this page. He was a French monarch and for every single monarch before or after him the names of the parents and their royal/noble house is given. I would not be opposed to omitting the "House" parameter, but it's just ridiculous to remove his parents' names while keeping those of his wives and children. What is it exactly that gives his wives from whom he was separated more prominence compared to his mother or father? Keivan.f^Talk 22:10, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't support adding his parents names. We need to reduce the info box to the most important information. Nap didn't inherit any of his titles from his parents, he earned them himself. And if everyone says, "It's only two more lines" we will end up with an unwieldly info box again. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:31, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

His wives and children did not help him earn those titles either. What is the justification for keeping their names there exactly? Keivan.f^Talk 22:56, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

His wives were Empresses of the French. His children were heirs to his titles. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:10, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Two of those children were illegitimate and were not heirs to anything. His wives were empresses via marriage, a title bestowed upon them solely because they were his wives. His mother was also called "Madame Mère" (Madame Mother) and had a place at her son's court. Why should she be excluded and those two included? Keivan.f^Talk 23:38, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

You've had your say. We will see what others think. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:20, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

This is not a voting contest. If no one can come up with a solid reason as to why the names of his wives and children should be there then they can be removed. That makes the infobox even shorter which was the aim of this discussion anyway. Keivan.f^Talk 00:51, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

No, you need to seek a consensus for such a change. WP:BRD. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:13, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't see a solid consensus for removing his parents' names either. Three users agreeing to remove something that had been in the article's body for years does not qualify as a universal consensus. Only an WP:RfC could achieve this. And we are already discussing the matter so for now I'll wait and see what the other two users have to say. Keivan.f^Talk 01:26, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Ping Kawnhr as your input has been requested. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I think they should probably stay; it's standard in infoboxes, and only two lines anyway. I appreciate the willingness to take a machete to the infobox, but I think we've more or less solved the problem of length. — Kawnhr (talk) 23:34, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

As you noted, I don't think that his parents are sufficiently important information to add to the infobox. However, my main point in challenging your edit was to have it discussed to achieve a specific consensus (or not). My view is that his partners and progeny are more important but not tonight Josephine Cinderella157 (talk) 10:19, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

I think that since it's standard for parents/children to be issued in the infobox. It's help give family background and easily be able to link to his progeny. I'm a bit confused on why it's removed considering most other infoboxes both modern and historical have family in them. 128.62.73.206 (talk) 15:47, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Infoboxes are also recognized as a place to put specialized information that doesn't fit well into the body text. Given the high level of notability for Napoleon, I don't think the old length was unreasonable. Legend of 14 (talk) 07:20, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

References

I don't care that much about infoboxes in general, but I just looked again at the current infobox on the page, and it does not look too long to me at all. It looks to me to be pretty reasonable and standard, and pretty much fine as it is. I wouldn't support adding his parents names to the current infobox. Thank you, warshy ^(¥¥) 15:28, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough. I just don't understand why we are giving more prominence to the wives and children. There's just not a single argument that could explain why any of them (other than Josephine perhaps) is more prominent than either of his parents. The view that his wives were empresses and as such should be named does not make sense. Letizia was the mother of an emperor, much in the same way that Margaret Beaufort (who was not a queen) was the mother of England's Henry VII and a prominent figure in his court. If the aim is to shorten the infobox, fine, by all means do it, but do it without prejudice against certain family members. Keivan.f^Talk 23:29, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

Okay. I gave this discussion two and a half months to see if someone could come up with a legitimate reason as to why his parents' names have to be omitted. Not only is there no valid reason to exclude them, but by looking at the comments here it appears that there is no majority established in favor of either side. I don't think it's fair to make such changes based on the preferences of 2-3 users, so should I open an RfC? Keivan.f^Talk 00:58, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Both of his wives have significant multiple mentions in the article. His parents on the otherhand have minimal mentions in respect to his early life only. Not everything should be in an infobox. It is an editorial choice to balance what should be there and what are the most significant key facts that should be summarised there, per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. The article supports inclusion of his wives but not of his parents. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:52, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Since when did we establish the 'number of times a person is mentioned in a specific article' as criteria for including or excluding their name from a given page's infobox? I mean, his mother, who gave birth to him and lived throughout his entire reign, cannot be tossed away as some insignificant figure just because her name is not repeated as much as Josephine's. Yes, she may not be as important as his wives, but she is at least as notable as his children and definitely not 'unimportant'. Keivan.f^Talk 03:05, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE: [it is] to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article and The less information it contains, the more effectively it serves that purpose, allowing readers to identify key facts at a glance.. It is not a matter of notability per WP:BIO but whether they are key facts. An objective measure of whether something is a key fact appearing in an article is how often it is mentioned. Cinderella157 (talk) 05:03, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Based on that logic, the names of his children should be tossed away as well. Neither of them (except maybe for Napoleon II) form part of the article's key facts, and they appear only once or twice in the text. We cannot be selective when applying the suggested guidelines. Keivan.f^Talk 05:10, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Okay, toss them. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:16, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Someone added a section on Titles to the article which consists of a table. Perhaps we could add a similar one regarding family? I understand that this goes against the need to shorten the article, but there is a case that an article of this kind should contain a summary table of Napoleon's family, given the importance of his family in his career. To save space, I would suggest that the section about wives and mistresses should get the chop and be replaced by a table on his family. I would also suggest that the tables on Titles and Family should be collapsible. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 06:21, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Well, that suggestion can be discussed separately because the focus of the discussion here is the infobox specifically. I'm gonna go ahead with removing the children's names. Keivan.f^Talk 14:47, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi, as i already discussed with Aemilius Adolphin on the religious section, i just wanted to add back religion to Infobox because i think that some of the "cutting" and changes that were done on this matter are just trying to give one or other point of view. And i also really think that just a bit of 46 bytes will not hurt anyone. CitizenZorro (talk) 14:32, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi CitizenZorro and Aemilius Adolphin, as per MOS:INFOBOXREL this detail should be included only for "classes of persons for whom religion is integral to their notability". That's not this case. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:40, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Hello there Nikkimaria,

I just respect the idea of diversity and different opinions, but respect should be mutual, especially when it comes to issue like religion. And not talking on this specific case.

I find the "cutting" and changes that were made on the section of "religious beliefs" were too much. After all, Catholicism was the state religion (majorty) of the first French Empire and its ruler by his own words.

He was also crowned in a Catholic ceremony, his uncle was a Cardinal, and we already have that the "biggest influence upon him was his mother" who was also a devout Catholic.

I don't want to change any of the last edits on this section, just to add religion to Infobox which i remember stood there for years. and by putting a ref which i think Aemilius Adolphin also put there. CitizenZorro (talk) 22:38, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't see there is a case for this addition given MOS:INFOBOXREL and WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE more generally. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:33, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

I just forget to mention that Napleon is also buried in a Catholic Cathedral, without also mention other sourced aspects that were just cutting from "religious beliefs".

And if a state religion is not notable, so what really is? CitizenZorro (talk) 15:23, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Napoleon did not make Catholicism the state religion, he recognised it as the religion of the majority: a purely descriptive term. In any event, that is irrelevant to Napoleon's main reason for notability: MOS:INFOBOXREL Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:20, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

He actually did my friend, And his nephew Napoleon III also follow the family tradition and did the same in the Second French Empire.

He was also crowned in a Catholic ceremony, and even his resting place, which is alredoy mentioned on the infobox, is owned by the Catholic Church and not the first or fifth French Republics.

And why did you cut some important and sourced aspects on religious beliefs and think it's more reliable now? CitizenZorro (talk) 22:53, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

Adolphin, So my friend? You want to cut religion from both religious section and infobox? 😉

I'm restoring some removed contents to "religious beliefs" section because some of the references you put there are not more reliable. In fact, some are smaller works to the one's you just had cut. Or at least to infobox.

What do you think would be more realistic? CitizenZorro (talk) 13:22, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

If you want to add content to the religion section, you should discuss proposed additions in the Talk section on Religion below. Given that there is a consensus that the article is already too long, you should seek consensus for any proposed additions or consider adding them to the main article on Napoleon and the Catholic Church. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:28, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Using threats to get ones way is quite inappropriate. Cinderella157 (talk) 23:19, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

As a Catholic, and not as a something else, I would say that Napoleon was probably our greatest. But I'm still not sure because there are some other candidates.

To use his name for spreading some Fake News is quite disrespectful for him, his character, and others. CitizenZorro (talk) 09:47, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Agreed the old infobox was a reasonable length. Legend of 14 (talk) 07:22, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't see a problem with its current length. My only point was that his parents' names (and consequently his kids' names) did not necessarily need to be removed, but given the constant posting of comments under this thread I think we should consider an RfC which is what I suggested in the beginning. For a high profile article such as this, the decisions cannot be made by 5-6 users. Keivan.f^Talk 16:45, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with the last part, too few people were involved in the infobox decision. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:51, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Religion

Hello all

I have cut some information which was tangential or had dubious sources (eg novels) and replaced it with more concise and accurate information from recent scholarship. I added a subheading on Religious views to better focus the content. The result is a slight reduction in word count in accordance with the consensus that the article is too long. I also added a relevant work to the bibliography.

Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:02, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

The reiligion of Napoleon and other aspects of his personal beliefs stood there for many years. And i really didn't find the refs and information that you put are better than the one's you cut. But i agree that different opinions about historical figure like Napoleon can be put there without "cutting" his original reilgion from Infobox. Thanks. CitizenZorro (talk) 12:25, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

There is a consensus that the info box and article as a whole were too long. The current information on Napoleon and religion looks adequate, but if you have specific proposals for changes please state them here and seek consensus for them. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:06, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

Oh...but its "just" only 201,750 bytes, and i have seen much longer articles on much less known people than Emperor Napoleon. Why did you much cutting on the religious matter? And did you put the "follower of Rousseau's "natural religion" or a believer in destiny" stuff and by removing other sourced aspects? I think it would be better to focus more on facts and not that kind of stuff. CitizenZorro (talk) 08:49, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

It doesn’t matter whether there are longer articles on Wikipedia, the consensus is that this one is too long. The current Religion section is reliably sourced and I think it covers the issue adequately for a general article or could even be cut further. There is another article on Napoleon and religion where detailed information is more appropriate. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:05, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Do you live on the other side of the Atlantic? 😉 Listen Pal, i checked out on page history and i have to say that you did a bit of lot cutting and changes there. I will not come into what is more reliable now, I just want to restore religion to infobox and by putting a ref which i guess you yourself put there. 46 bytes just will not hurt, Ok? CitizenZorro (talk) 11:41, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

You will need consensus for it. Please see the discussion on the infobox. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 11:55, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

👍 CitizenZorro (talk) 12:09, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Hi again here,

You know what Adolphin? I think that you did good job there by cutting some unreliable references 🙂

Can i just restore of what Napoleon said on Jesus while in Saint Helena? And some fixes about the Concordat? CitizenZorro (talk) 12:20, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Also, "he had a keen appreciation of the power of organized religion in social and political affairs, and he paid a great deal of attention to bending it to his purposes. He noted the influence of Catholicism's rituals and splendors". Because this content was well sourced. CitizenZorro (talk) 12:29, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't support restoring the old wording, "he had a keen appreciation of the power of organized religion in social and political affairs, and he paid a great deal of attention to bending it to his purposes. He noted the influence of Catholicism's rituals and splendors". The current wording is, "He understood the power of organized religion in social and political affairs, and later sought to use it to support his regime." This is more concise, draws on additional cited sources, and makes a broader point: it wasn't just the Catholic church and its rituals that he manipulated to suit his goals, it was also the protestant faiths, Judaism and Islam.

I assume the quote about Jesus you wish to restore is this one: While in exile in Saint Helena, he is recorded to have said "I know men; and I tell you that Jesus Christ is not a man."' The problem with this is that the sources are very dubious. They are English language religious encyclodedias and collections of Napoleon's supposed sayings from the 1850s and 1870s. The consensus of modern scholars is that most of Napoleon's alleged sayings of this kind come from people who were trying to spread pro- or anti-Napoleonic propaganda or reinvent him in their own image. Rather than reinstate this dubious quote, I would prefer to delete the quote about Mohammed which comes from Las Cases -- another source which can't always be relied on without corroborating testimony.

What changes do you suggest to the content about the Concordat? Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:44, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

References

Napoleon's family

I have noticed that we have deleted Napoleon's parents and children from the infobox but we are listing his wives. I see no reason why we should list Napoleon's wives, but not his parents or his offspring. My preference would be to list all three, otherwise to delete all three. Векочел (talk) 00:51, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Your logic is impeccable. My preference would be to remove wives, but I am willing to be convinced otherwise. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:37, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Unlike the parents, and children, the wives have prominent mentions in the article and can reasonably be considered "key information" per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE. Cinderella157 (talk) 09:52, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

And how exactly are his parents and children not pertinent or key information? Any biography discussing Napoleon's early life will make at least some mention of his parents, and I think Madame Mère is indeed quite notable. Векочел (talk) 13:08, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I still think this issue needs to be addressed via an RfC. Nobody seems to agree on what the correct form is. There are those who bring up the "key elements" issue and those who argue in favor of consistency with the infoboxes of other monarchs. Keivan.f^Talk 23:33, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

The former argument is reflective of the relevant guideline; the latter is not. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:54, 16 December 2023 (UTC)

Even when considering the "former argument" opinions vary. There are some who consider family as key parts of any person's biography and then there are those who don't. It depends on what your definition of key information is. Keivan.f^Talk 00:26, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Per WP:INFOBOXPURPOSE: ... purpose of an infobox: to summarize (and not supplant) key facts that appear in the article ... It is the article which determines what the key facts are, by the weight given them. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:16, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Most articles mention an individual's parents or children (or even spouses) once or twice. That does not mean that those people are not an integral or key part of the subject's life. And given the fact that they are mentioned in proper context, we would not be supplanting anything. Keivan.f^Talk 20:56, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Parents and children are key information that should be in the infobox. I believe it’s odd to include his spouses in the infobox but not his parents and children, it doesn’t make sense. And I agree with your point, just because his parents aren’t constantly mentioned in the article doesn’t mean they aren’t key information. I would support an Rfa to discuss this. Robertus Pius (Talk • Contribs) 21:18, 1 January 2024 (UTC)

War of the Fourth Coalition

Hello all

I have rewritten this section with more concise wording. I have moved some detail to the main article on the War of the Fourth Coalition. I have removed some dubious anecdotes with dubious sources. I have added some political context with reliable sources. The result is a decrease in word count which is in line with the consensus that the article is too long to read comfortably.

Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 07:30, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Peninsular war and Erfurt

Hello all

I have rewritten this section with more concise wording. I have summarised some detail which is in the main article on the Peninsular War. I have replaced some dubious sources with recent scholarship. I have added some context with reliable sources. The result is a decrease in word count which is in line with the consensus that the article is too long to read comfortably.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:35, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 December 2023

Add a period to the end of the sentence after the link to the Inquisition in the second paragraph of the section on long-term influence outside of France. Baba5barn (talk) 04:54, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

 Done Cinderella157 (talk) 04:59, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

War of Fifth Coalition and Consolidation of Empire

Hello all

I have summarized the military detail which can be found in the linked main article. I have added more content on the political consolidation of the Empire under a new sub-heading "Consolidation of Empire". I also removed one image which was causing overcrowding. The result is a reduction in word count which is in accordance with the consensus that the article is too long to read comfortably.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 03:49, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

thank you, you need to add the full doyle ref into the references? I'd take a shot at good article, when you think it's ready. What's the gap between this and GA? Tom B (talk) 10:50, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Doyle should be Dwyer. Corrections made. I am reading Doyle on the French Revolution and got myself confused. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 11:40, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

Structure consolidation

I asked ChatGPT 4 to produce an outline

Detailed outline collapsed

User: Write a detailed outline for a Wikipedia article on Napoleon in wikimarkup == Early Life and Background == === Birth and Family === Date and place of birth, family background, and early years. === Education === His schooling and military education. == Early Military Career == === Early Service === Initial military experiences and assignments. === First Italian Campaign === Key battles and strategies, impact on his rising fame. == Rise to Power == === Role in the French Revolution === Napoleon's involvement and actions during the Revolution. === Coup of 18 Brumaire === The events leading to the coup and its aftermath. == Governance and Reforms == === Consulate Period === Political changes and reforms during the Consulate. === Emperor of the French === Coronation, reforms, and policies as Emperor. == Military Campaigns and the Napoleonic Wars == === Major Battles and Campaigns === Overview of key military engagements (Austerlitz, Jena, etc.). === Continental System === Economic strategy against Britain and its impacts. === Decline and Defeats === Factors leading to military decline, including the Russian campaign. == Exile and Final Years == === Exile to Elba === Circumstances and life in Elba. === Hundred Days and Waterloo === Return from exile, the Waterloo campaign, and its significance. === Saint Helena === Final exile and death. == Legacy and Historical Perspective == === Political and Cultural Impact === Napoleonic Code, administrative changes, and influence on European politics. === Historical Assessments === How historians view Napoleon: debates and differing perspectives. == In Popular Culture == Overview of Napoleon's portrayal in literature, film, and other media

Bot structure:

• Early Life and Background
• Early Military Career
• Rise to Power
• Governance and Reforms
• Military Campaigns and the Napoleonic Wars
• Exile and final years
• Legacy and Historical Perspective
• In Popular Culture

Current structure:

• Early life
• Early career
• Ruler of France
• Exile on Saint Helena
• Religion
• Personality
• Appearance and image
• Reforms
• Memory and evaluation
• Children
• Titles

They're similar, because ChatGPT uses Wikipedia, but it looks across more sources and so provides ideas. i've looked at this for several articles and ChatGPT highlights bloat in longer articles, when i've done a side-by-side comparison. Do we need a level 2 section on religion? Perhaps, but there is rationalisation/consolidation possible in these later level two sections. Some of the reforms section overlaps with the long-term influence sub-section? do personality and appearance, need separate level 2 sections? Tom B (talk) 21:46, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree that the section structure can be rationalised. The main problem I have is that the article is structured around his military campaigns rather than domestic policy and the social context. Reforms should go into the 1799-1803 period and include religious reforms. Appearance and Image coud be combined with Memory and Evaluation. I am strongly against a section on In Popular Culture because this will inevitably encourage random editors to pop in and add their favourite graphic novel, computer game, pop song, TV show, movie etc. that mentions Napoleon.

I am still working on summarising information within the current structure and will have another think about the structure when we get the article down to a manageable size. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

you make a lot of good points thank you, Tom B (talk) 23:33, 28 December 2023 (UTC)

Fact

The fact that napolean had been a major factor in multiple wars. 2601:285:8800:1AB0:ECDE:C992:FD1B:B0C8 (talk) 04:46, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done. It's not clear to me what you're asking (or saying). Delukiel (talk) 14:43, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

About reverting my edit

Hello there, in my edit, I was referring to the influence of Maliki Fiqh on the Napoleonic Code. It has been highly underaddressed because of its Islamic roots. Also, I have provided proper citations for that. Napoleon did order the translation of Maliki books into French. I never claimed that the whole Napoleonic Code was based on Maliki Fiqh; I was simply pointing out the influences. That was not an objective edit but rather a scholastic opinion and possible influence. Marjukur Rahib (talk) 10:50, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

You added: "It [the Napoleonic Code] was heavily influenced by the Maliki rite of Islam. Napoleon took an interest in the Maliki school of teaching after his invasion of Egypt, ordering the translation of multiple Maliki Fiqh books from Arabic to French."

This is an exceptional claim because None of the major scholarly works on the Napoleonic Code state that it was influenced by the Maliki school of Islam. Any exceptional claim requires multiple high-quality sources. WP:Exceptional. Your sources are one article in Turkish, a youtube video and an unpublished PhD thesis. This is not enough to overturn the consensus of eminent scholars in the field. If sometime in the future a consensus emerges that the Napoleonic Code was indeed influenced to some extent by the Maliki school of Islam then we can mention it in this article. But at the moment the consensus of editors is that the article is already too long so there is no room to include fringe theories. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 23:46, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Invasion of Russia

Hello all

I have removed some content already covered in the article. I have replaced content that was poorly sourced or did not accurately reflect the cited source. I have added content based on more reliable sources, particularly Dwyer (2013) and Esdaille (2007). I have summarised other content. The result is a slight reduction in word count which is consistent with the consensus that the article is too long to read comfortably.

Happy to discuss Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 09:17, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

Adding back Napoleon's family to infobox (parents + issue)

Family members in a Wikipedia info box provide essential context and insight into the individual's personal life and relationships, helping to paint a more comprehensive picture of their background and influences. Including family members allows readers to understand familial connections, lineage, and potential influences on the subject's life and work, contributing to a deeper understanding of their biography and legacy. I'm a bit confused why Napoleon's parents and issue were removed from the infobox. After reading the lengthy and written discussions I think putting his parents and issue would be fine. It's helpful for standardizing across pages and great for following families. I don't think it would be too much clutter too, as some of the users were worried about. I was studying his infobox and was kinda surprised his parents weren't there comparing to other infoboxes. 128.62.73.206 (talk) 16:03, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand that decision either. I agree that his family information should be readded. Legend of 14 (talk) 18:57, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Michael Broers biography

Unless I've missed it, this article doesn't appear to use Michael Broers' biography. Given that it has been called the "finest biography ever written", and it is magnificent, that seems something of an omission. I've thinking of adding a few bits, but am conscious of the length concerns. Is the best way forward to discuss intended changes here first, or to boldly edit and then address any issues? KJP1 (talk) 16:55, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

Broers is a major work and definitely should be added to the references. I suggest you discuss proposed significant additions here so we can discuss things that can be removed in order to accommodate them. But if it is just a small change with a supporting reference which doesn't add much to the word count please feel free to put it in. Any suggestions for things that can be cut or moved to other articles would also be very welcome. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:50, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

His horse

Possibly, given that it appears to be depicted in a famous painting, and its skeleton is preserved and displayed in a museum, a brief mention of Marengo (horse) in the article might be appropriate. Harfarhs (talk) 09:51, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Infobox

I really think we need to have another conversation about the family members in the infobox. It’d be good to have another talk about it with more editors involved. The “consensus” to remove valuable information from the infobox for no valid reason is being upheld by the same 2 or 3 editors, and those same few revert any edits that go against their “consensus.” I would give a detailed explanation as to why I think the family info removed should be restored but I’ve already done so in my previous conversation in the talk page, which went nowhere. I’m bringing it up again because I believe most editors would agree to restore the info, but perhaps aren’t aware of this discussion or aren’t passionate enough about it to create the conversation, I’m hoping more editors will get involved to change this ridiculous infobox. Kind regards, Robertus Pius (Talk • Contribs) 19:57, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Is the information covered in other sections of the article, or only in the infobox? Dimadick (talk) 16:53, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I’m speaking about the removal of Napoleons parents and children from the infobox. Those are key facts of Napoleon that should be included in the infobox. Robertus Pius (Talk • Contribs) 18:15, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

I agree I think it's a bit unreasonable to exclude his parents and progeny from the Infobox, considering Napoleon's quite important for the late Bonaparte dynasty. I agree to to list his children and parents in the infobox. I know that Aemilius Adolphin prefered the minimalist approach, but I agree with Robertus, legend, Векочел, and others that it's quite important for the infobox. 128.62.179.178 (talk) 20:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Napoleon’s Exile to Elba

This page claims that Napoleon was exiled in “April 1814” when he was actually exiled in “May 1814” YankeeCase (talk) 20:38, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Where does it say this? The article states that the Act of exile was 11 April 1814 and he arrived on Elba in May. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 21:52, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

War of the Sixth Coalition

Hello all

I have used more concise wording and cut some detail which is in the main article on this war. I have rewritten some content to provide a less garbled version of the war, relying mainly on Esdaile (2007), Dwyer (2013) and Broers (2022). The result is a reduction in word count consistent with the consensus that the article is too long to navigate comfortably.

Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 22:58, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Exile on Elba

Hello all

I have removed a lengthy quote which only repeats information already in the previous section. I have corrected some errors and added some detail about the Elba period. I have replaced some dubious internet sources with more reliable sources based on recent scholarship, particularly Dwyer (2013) and Broers (2022). I have made a more logical link between this and the following section. The result is a slight decrease in word count which is consistent with the consensus that the article is too long to read comfortably.

Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 04:11, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Hundred Days

Hello all

I have corrected some errors and used more concise wording. I have added some content and replaced some dubious internet sources with more scholarly sources, particularly Dwyer (2013) and Broers (2022). The result is a slight decrease in word count which is consistent with the consensus that the article is too long to read comfortably.

Happy to discuss. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 04:25, 17 March 2024 (UTC)