Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates

; Archives
	1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, April Fools 2005, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31 Short FAs, 32 Short FAs cont., 33, 34 Context and notability, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39

FACs needing feedback ; view • edit
Battle of Saipan	Review it now
Infant school	review it now
It Was Hot, We Stayed in the Water	Review it now
2015 KNVB Cup final	Review it now
Five Nights at Freddy's: Help Wanted	Review it now
December 2017 North American winter storm	Review it now

For a Table-of-Contents only list of candidates, see Wikipedia:Featured articles/Candidate list

Image reviews needed

SandyGeorgia (Talk) 03:22, 27 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Benjamin Harrison~~ SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:25, 31 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

~~Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Stanley Goble~~ SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:47, 2 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~Jagdgeschwader 1 (World War II)~~ SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:32, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proposal to modify criterion 3

It has just come to my attention that we don't actually link to or mention Wikipedia image policy in criterion 3. This is a serious omission. We link to WP:IMAGES, which deals more with placement in articles and is a guideline. WP:IUP is a policy and outlines the basic elements of copyright, image description, uploading, formats, size, etc. I therefore propose that we make the following change:

Current: It has images and other media where appropriate, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status.
Proposed change: It has images (which follow the image use policies) and other media where appropriate, with succinct captions and acceptable copyright status.

I think this makes our expectations regarding images clearer. Thanks. Awadewit (talk) 17:50, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The link to WP:IMAGES is not particularly helpful, but the link to WP:IUP would be. Finetooth (talk) 19:26, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good to me too. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 19:52, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I also agree to this change. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 20:12, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fine with me. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:13, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My only suggestion would be to remove the parentheses. --Moni3 (talk) 20:18, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. Graham. Graham Colm ^Talk 20:24, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Has anyone run it by Elcobbola? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:26, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure why Elcobbola would be of any help here. This is Wikipedia's policy regarding images. It should be part of WP:FA?, like Wikipedia's policies on sources. Awadewit (talk) 20:35, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agree, but no need for the (). Johnbod (talk) 20:28, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:38, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why not just simply change the wikilink from WP:IMAGES to WP:IUP? Compliance with policy is expected of all articles regardless of FA status. That expectation is even supplemented for the FA process by the opening paragraph of WP:WIAFA: "In addition to meeting the requirements for all Wikipedia articles..." where "requirements" links to the list of policies to which WP:IUP belongs. That being the case, it doesn't really seem necessary to make the criterion more wordy when we could just replace the current (frankly, worthless) WP:IMAGES link with something more meaningful. Shame Tony's criteria simplification proposal didn't get traction... Эlcobbola _talk 21:41, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wondered the same, but I thought I must be missing something. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would argue for keeping it or replacing it with a link that discusses image layout. That is the one benefit to the link. Awadewit (talk) 23:14, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I generally support the change, leaving it to the image and prose experts to figure out how to best word it. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:16, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To opinion about simply changing the link - I would hope that both would apply to an FA, to be honest. :) Ottava Rima (talk) 01:03, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, proposal makes sense. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 23:19, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I had the same reaction as ElCobbola: yes it makes sense to link to WP:IUP, but can it be done more concisely? Don't forget there is a whole second sentence "Non-free images or media must satisfy the criteria for inclusion of non-free content and be labeled accordingly" which covers several issues from WP:IUP. Geometry guy 23:50, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

+S for the idea; y'all can wrangle over the exact wording. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 23:56, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why wasn't this already there? By the way, support for the obvious addition. >.< Ottava Rima (talk) 01:03, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Makes sense, but the brackets aren't needed. Sceptre ^(talk) 01:05, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would lose the brackets and replace "which" with "that". Like the change overall, though. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I would like an addition clause to include references and original research. =Nichalp «Talk»= 06:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've gone ahead and changed the criteria, leaving out the parens and using "that".[1] Awadewit (talk) 17:31, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seems redundant -- why not just link to the image policy instead of adding a half dozen words? — Deckill er 02:05, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Both links have important information - unfortunately, there is not one page with all of it. Awadewit (talk) 02:39, 7 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

April Fools' Day featured by April 1st?

Any chance we could get April Fools' Day up to featured status by April 1st? RJFJR (talk) 17:17, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's going to need a total rewrite. The first step is to find a group of people willing to work on it. Last year we got Ima Hogg to FA from a basic article in less than 8 weeks (this year it is someone else's turn!). I'd recommend gathering a group now and starting to work right away. Karanacs (talk) 17:20, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm hoping to finish and run WP:FCDW/AprilFools in the Signpost at the end of January. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:05, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Question about Greece Runestones FAC

I'd like to solicit opinions about Greece Runestones, which is currently at FAC. The article is structured to have the lead provide the background information, and then the body lists each runestone and gives detailed information about each one. This doesn't seem to comply with the lead guidelines: specifically, since the body is a list of runestones, the lead does not include quite a bit of information from the body; and conversely the lead contains information which is not in the body, such as summary comments about the runestones as a group. For example, the lead says "The primary reason for the creation of the relatively large number of inscriptions that refer to Greece was that Greece was home to the illustrious Varangian Guard." There are plenty of references to the Varangians in the article, but this particular piece of information is only in the lead.

However, the article, to me at least, is clearly not a list, and so should not be punted to the featured list process. I have not yet opposed on the basis of the lead because I have to say this is a very natural and sensible organization for the article. What do others think? Mike Christie (talk) 14:32, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FACs requiring extensive third-party copy-editing

I think these candidates should be archived and re-submitted because:

It is getting hard to distinguish FAC from Peer Review.
Of more concern (to me at least) is that it is not fair on those nominators whose FACs require extensive, third-party copy-editing, but do not receive any offers.
Occasionally supporting comments no longer relate to the current version of the article after the CE, because errors have been introduced, (I am not throwing stones, I am guilty of this).
These candidates remain at FAC for too long.
Subtle pressure can be applied to reviewers to take on the task of copy-editing.
It does no harm.

Any comments? Graham. Graham Colm ^Talk 18:00, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just one: Amen. Dabomb87 had a great quote at the Sunderland FAC, which just closed. In response to a reviewer who was critical that opposers didn't want to edit the article, Dabomb said: "FAC is meant for fine-tuning, it is not a build-a-Featured-Article service." He's right and so is Graham. The point about new errors being introduced by copy-editing in particular is excellent. I haven't been re-reviewing articles that I've supported because my time is invariably taken up by new reviews. This is something that I will pay closer attention to in the future. Giants2008 (17-14) 20:27, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the key is that we as reviewers need to oppose rather than leave it as comments. Without opposes, Sandy can't archive. Karanacs (talk) 20:35, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose I could, if I wanted to be regularly chewed out for closing FACs with no commentary, and I do if I must, but I'd rather think that my "job" is to measure the consensus of reviewers rather than make all the decisions myself :-) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 20:49, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I for one would welcome our new FAC overlord :P Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 21:02, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think opposing based on the prose and saying something like "these issues are too extensive to fix at FAC" vs. "these issues can probably be fixed by one quick copyediting sweep" might help us (and Sandy) determine the difference between articles that need a quick polish and those that need hours of work. Awadewit (talk) 22:30, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. As a side note, I think it might be a good idea to gather a group of editors who are willing to help copyediting FACs upon request. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 22:35, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all these very helpful comments. I think we should oppose those FACs when "these issues are too extensive to fix at FAC", apply, (thanks Awadewit), and maintain our opposition despite offers of extensive copy-editing. It might be helpful to find a diplomat and ask them to write a generic comment to explain this, thank and encourage the nominator to re-submit. (I think Tony could do this well IMHO). Graham Colm ^Talk 23:25, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The prose would have to be pretty dire for me to oppose on that basis alone, rather than dig in and fix the problem. --Malleus Fatuorum 23:35, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How many hours are you willing to put into the copyediting? Awadewit (talk) 23:37, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Depends on the pay. ;-) To be more serious though, I tend only to get involved in the FACs of those articles I have some interest in, so in those cases the answer is usually as many as it takes. Just for the sake of completeness I'll point out that I already do a very great deal of copyediting at GAN, and similarly would never fail an article just because of prose concerns. Sometimes that involves a great deal of work ... --Malleus Fatuorum 23:47, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That seems to be the nub of the issue. There aren't a lot of editors who are willing to take on a decently researched article that needs major copy editing; many of the editors who are capable of doing a good job of this (quite reasonably) prefer to work on their own choice of articles. A good number of my copy edits have been done when the article was on FAC, or in preparation for FAC; however, I tend to avoid articles that don't or won't meet other criteria (images, reference sources, external links, etc.). I've willingly put in up to 40 hours to work on an article that I know is within reach of a successful FAC, and the primary editor(s) are interested in collaboration rather than ownership. Requests for assistance, however, have always outstripped my availability by a margin of 3 to 1 (and I'm even less available now than ever before). I've yet to figure out how we can encourage more editors to focus on improvement of content instead of just expansion of it. Risker (talk) 23:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

More people need to be ready to read & place quick opposes on articles when the prose clearly falls short, even if they are not willing to fix it and are not interested in the subject. The main problem is that some articles then receive half-assed copyedits that don't move them much nearer the proper standard, but you have to keep rechecking the article to confirm that. Johnbod (talk) 23:55, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it is a new person who has not submitted before, I will often try to use comments or apologise for opposing and be helpful. However, I will use opposes for definite dealbreaker issues. The other issue is the degree of copyediting as a benchmark. Very tricky. I am willing to copyedit, though limited time often means I prioritise those I am interested in. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:00, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

eg, I didn't actually think the Sunderland AFC one was that far off, still maybe focussing on it now and listing outstanding issues woill be good to show the reviewer that it is not a catastrophe to fail. This might be a good thing for prose fails. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 00:02, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As reviewers, we should differentiate between quick-fails (problems that can't be fixed during a candidacy), regular opposes (substantial problems that can be fixed during FAC) and straight comments (polishing). If an article should be quick-failed, we should put that in bold instead of just opposing. This will allow the closers to measure consensus and have a good reason for quickly archiving an FAC. Giants2008 (17-14) 00:34, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

From my chair, there is no such thing as a quick fail; I will archive a nom sooner rather than later if many reviewers find it seriously deficient in many areas. Otherwise, as long as FAC instructions were followed, they all get a fair chance. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:30, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not so easy to differentiate, and except in the most obvious cases I'd be against quickfails. Committed editors can achieve the most surprising results, particularly if one or two FAC regulars are assisting. --Malleus Fatuorum 00:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How many "regulars" are there that are willing to assist? Do we have the resources to offer a copyediting service and keep up a good reviewing rate at the same time? Awadewit (talk) 00:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I remain to be convinced that the reviewing rate is a problem. However, you make a good point. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As a supplementary, I wonder how many articles get through FAC without copyediting help from the FAC "regulars"? None? --Malleus Fatuorum 01:34, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. I can't think of any that I have nominated or seen. I will chekc mine for the 'smoothest run' Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 01:37, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some of mine have - see, for example, Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Mary Shelley. Awadewit (talk) 01:40, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think an excellent writer like yourself can probably do it in niche areas like 18th-century literature, but there are very few with your skills and knowledge submitting FACs. --Malleus Fatuorum 01:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I just started looking at the FACs promoted in December and there are quite a few that were promoted without copyediting by the regulars. I haven't looked at other months. Awadewit (talk) 01:53, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also without copyediting from any of the reviewers, whether you consider them to be FAC regulars or not? --Malleus Fatuorum 02:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you mean, are there any FACs that passed without a single change during the review process, probably not, but this is a wiki. There are, however, FACs that have passed without extensive copyediting efforts on the part of reviewers (regular or not). Awadewit (talk) 02:05, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For the record, by far the smoothest runs I have had are Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Banksia spinulosa and Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Amanita phalloides, most need double the amount of work or more. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So that would be a "no" then. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:46, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:48, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Butting in, I agree with Awadewit above. I seriously doubt that there has ever been an error-free article—but that's not the point. Honestly, IMO, too many articles nominated here need substantial copy editing (I'm an offender, excuse me), and should pursue a second or third peer review. I also believe that an article should not be allowed to be nominated without at least one PR. ₪Ceran →(slip→sled →snow) 02:13, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, there I will have to leave you. I think that PR is by and large a waste of time, but I fully accept that's just my opinion. --Malleus Fatuorum 02:44, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PR is useful for getting articles to GA; for anything more significant, it can sometimes slow everything down. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 02:49, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Slow in what sense? I find that peer reviews slow me down in a good way. I take more time to assess my prose and I am able to respond the needs of readers unfamiliar with the topic which I may not have been aware of before. Awadewit (talk) 02:56, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think regardeless of whether an official PR, or a request to uninvolved editors is immaterial, as long as there have been more eyes to look over the article is the thing really. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:14, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quite. PR is an irrelevance. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:23, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Aaawwww, that's a bit mean. I do try and pop in from time to time, just overloaded alot of the time these days :( Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:31, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that sounded harsher than I meant. I didn't mean to say that PR was generally irrelevant, as I suppose that those who are lucky enough to get anything other than an automated review are grateful for the feedback. I simply meant that I don't see PR as a useful step towards either FA or GA, unless the article's editors have no other third-parties to call on for advice. --Malleus Fatuorum 03:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, everbody's Good Deed for the Day, --> Go to WP:PR, take 5 mins to look and drop a few notes on a PR candidate, anything, doesn't matter, pretty quick and easy to find some content or prose issues. Go for it and make WP a better place! Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 03:43, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A thought: In addition to making a LoCE-esque list of people willing to help at FAC time, could we have a list of folks who could be "run-by" people, who might indicate to potential FACers – before the FAC is started – whether the prose is ready? This would take much less time, and could save a ton of trouble. (IE: "The prose needs work. Get a copyedit before you submit it to FAC.") Just a thought. Scartol • Tok 03:45, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to raise this point - PR and (in particular) LoCE traditionally gives little feedback; as long as editors are able to get some feedback and help from PR or LoCE, then FAC would stop being an avenue of first resort. - Mailer Diablo 03:18, 14 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No matter how much copy-editing is done, there are bound to be editors who are not satisfied with the prose. There are too many hands in the cookie jar -- too many stylistic preferences and overlooked glitches. None of us are perfect, and all of us differ slightly on everything from optional commas to the use of certain transition phrases. Perhaps it's better that all of this is occurring on one level; otherwise, FACs will always encounter turbulence on the basis of prose (I used to generate a list of what I considered to be prose issues in even the most well written articles). — Deckill er 04:47, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, to a point, but a FA is not supposed to be perfect, and it is often not too hard to broadly differentiate between poor and good prose. Cheers, Casliber (talk · contribs) 04:50, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, and that's why I started voting "neutral" toward the end of my time here; I was a nitpicky bastard. If an editor not proficient in copy-editing notices significant prose glitches, then it's obviously a problem that cannot be remedied with a few casual passes. If a couple editors agree, then they should be bold and move the page to a copy-editing center of some sort. After two weeks, a consensus could determine if the article is suitable for FAC or should be placed on a two-month probation from FAC. Heck, I think all failed FACs should be placed on two-month probation, specifically to avoid "luck-of-the-draw" reviewing. — Deckill er 05:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The point about the commas is worth considering for a moment - there are several styles of comma usage. Rather than complaining about an article's style, I would much rather see editors focusing on consistency in this matter. The serial comma, for example, is optional, but if an article chooses to use it, does it do so consistently. Awadewit (talk) 05:01, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good point. After all, the article writer(s) are usually innocent scholars who don't want to get involved in Wordnerd Wars Episode XLIV. — Deckill er 05:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I started out 18 months ago at LoCE, and it was wonderful until the to-do pile fell over one day and squashed everybody. Then I moved to PR, where I happily beaver away when I'm not writing about obscure creeks. The PR pile might have toppled and squashed everyone there too except for User:Ruhrfisch and other sturdy souls. Often the reviewers suggest to authors that more c/e would be helpful, but with LoCE kaput, where are they going to find a copyeditor? Some don't, and they bring the prose problems to FAC. It would be easy to solve this problem if a pile of extra editors were kept in a big bin behind the cooler. Hmmm. A 10th-grade biology teacher recently encouraged his students to submit their Wikipedia articles to PR. A lot of them did. They seemed extra fond of ghastly diseases and poisonous snakes. Well, my thought is that maybe a batch of college students in English and journalism could be induced to copyedit for Wikipedia. It would give them hands-on experience that they couldn't get in a classroom. Finetooth (talk) 05:08, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I was there too. The workload just became unbearable, and the articles required more than one copy-editor; someone had to be the poor soul to go through it first, and then watch their changes get edited, and then those changes edited, and so on. The problems were just so deeply rooted that the copy-editors were practically rewriting the articles instead of simply going through the usual glitch checklist and offering some other pointers.

You have an amazing point: Wikipedia has huge potential for hands-on lessons. Why write a boring research paper when you can do the same thing on Wikipedia, especially since the typical high school research papers has less than an ounce of independent thought? Why review the same ten examples from a textbook when you could copy-edit whole articles? Wikipedia has so much potential -- scholars need to stop stigmatizing Wikipedia and start tapping into the project to actually, gasp, make it better. — Deckill er 05:26, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It might not be such a hard sell. The problems here are real, and nobody has the answer book. The subject matter is anything you can think of that can be sourced. The interactions are with real people, mostly total strangers, from all over the world. Everybody's work gets edited and published, and the best of it is really really good. Not boring. So, anybody know any English professors? Finetooth (talk) 06:05, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As an English-professor-to-be who teaches writing, I have often thought of having my students copyedit Wikipedia as part of an assignment. There are three problems with this: 1) Learning how to edit Wikipedia takes too much time for such a small assignment; 2) The majority of the students I have could not successfully copyedit a FAC or even a GAN - their writing is too poor (sad, isn't it?); having them copyedit stub through "B" class articles seems pointless, though, as these often need to be substantially rewritten; 3) Copyediting Wikipedia requires understanding Wikipedia's basic policies, which take a while to learn. Usually, therefore, we just copyedit a Wikipedia article together as a class. Awadewit (talk) 19:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

<outdent>You've thought this through much further than I, and, alas, you are right on all three counts. I have another idea, although I don't know what to do with it. A sizable group of retired writing teachers and/or journalists might find the project exciting. I'm pretty sure most of them use Wikipedia, but they might not think of themselves as potential Wikipedia editors. Since they don't all hang out in the same place, maybe the best way to recruit is by word-of-mouth. Not sure. Finetooth (talk) 20:18, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To what extent is this about ease of reading and understanding and what extent is it about to MOS minutiae? --Philcha (talk) 20:44, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To what are you referring? When I consider whether or not have my students copyedit Wikipedia, for example, I never worry about the MOS - what I worry about is how long it will take them to understand WP:NPOV, WP:V, etc. Awadewit (talk) 20:51, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think your priorities are right. Unfortunately MOS minutiae have put some editors off submitting articles for FA review, and the private comments of others who have not been deterred would sometimes make Sigmund Freud blush. --Philcha (talk) 09:42, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) Oi, I Opposed the Japanese racing thing for this reason, and everyone jumped me like I was a malodorous sass-monger. Now I'm copy editing. Ahem. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 10:47, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong. I was the only one who jumped you :). A general comment though: opposes based on a general view of the article must be actionable opposes; nominators can easily be turned off by comments that say "the grammar is clunky" or "I don't agree with the sentence structure". You can talk about the dangers of turning off reviewers, but equally you don't want to turn off nominators. Aptery gial 10:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wrong, but I'll elide several points and stick to those that can be discussed here. ;-) The word "actionable" is the catalyst that has permitted the transformation of FAC into PR. It's the hole in any membrane separating the two. Some devotees to that word are those who have enacted the transformation. It could well be deleted from WIAFA, in my opinion. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 13:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"It could well be deleted from WIAFA, in my opinion." Ling, do you mean FAC instructions? The key here is balance; I think that it is more helpful to provide examples of problems that need to be fixed. However, it is hard to draw the line between giving the nominator something to base their copy-editing off of and actually copy-editing the article for them [as a reviewer]. Obviously, the former is preferable. Dabomb87 (talk) 13:41, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just saying "This is badly written" or "There are defects in the prose" is not only unhelpful, it evades accountability and allows people to oppose for personal reasons. People who oppose on grounds of quality of writing should give examples, and be prepared to justify the objection. --Philcha (talk) 14:04, 16 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Image review needed

That's it

I'm taking my template back :-P I'm thinking about changing "FACs needing feedback" to "FACs requiring a copy-edit". Support? Oppose? Leave Wikipedia again because we know you're only back for like two days? — Deckill er 04:39, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Careful! If you don't stick around this time, I may stalk you up there, track you down, and haul you back in here! SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:04, 13 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, FAC produced featured crud

Susianna Kentikian (on the main page 2009-01-23) contains the obviously ungrammatical phrase:

"At the age of five, she left Armenia with her parents and her four-years older brother, Mikael, because…"

This very same mistake was in the promoted version. It's obvious that the reviewers of the article simply didn't read it, at least not with an ounce of intelligence or respect for the English language. It seems more than likely that they simply ran their precious little scripts over the things that can be checked by such automagic tools without giving a damn that featured articles are meant to represent "Wikipedia's very best work" (or simply not knowing what "Wikipedia's very best work" might be). This is hardly the first such problem with Main Page articles, nor will it be the last without a root-and-branch redesign of the system. Once again, I assert that WP:FAC is simply not fit for purpose. Physchim62 (talk) 00:23, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's no doubt that mistakes get through the process. As you know, the process is only as good as the reviewers and the time they volunteer. You've posted here before about problems with FAC. I think everyone involved with FAC would like to find ways to improve it; if you have ideas I'm sure we'd like to hear them. Believe me, you can't think of or point to a problem that hasn't been discussed; I'm more disappointed than surprised when you identify a problem, but I would be delighted and surprised if you could think of a way for us to improve the FAC process. Mike Christie (talk) 01:05, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but what purpose is WP:FAC meant to serve? If you want good articles on the main page, devolve the task to the WikiProjects: that way you will instantly increase the number of reviewers and their competence in the subject matter being discussed. If you want to improve articles and promote the WikiIdeal, why not have a random stub article on the main page? The only response here is that FAC is very difficult for the reviewers, that they don't have the time to do it properly etc etc… FAC would not be difficult for the reviewers if it didn't exist, which is an option that no-one seems to consider. Physchim62 (talk) 02:25, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggesting that main page articles pick from WikiProject selections and that FAC be scrapped is a suggestion instead of a criticism, so I'm glad to see it. I'd prefer to engage people such as yourself, with subject matter expertise, than ignore them. Personally I think other problems would surface with the approach you suggest; I won't go into details as I suspect you are not seriously proposing such a change; at least not with the intention of finding out whether your suggestion has flaws. If you are serious, let's talk. Mike Christie (talk) 02:48, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think WikiProjects can be trusted. A lot of weak projects would then just pass any old article so that they don't miss out on their main page quota. Secondly, if you want to talk about weak FAs, I can think of some WikiProjects where the members never oppose their own FACs, always vote keep on FARs even with swathes of unreferenced materials and peacock terms and so forth. And nothing stops project members from commenting at FAC and as I said before wiki project members are usually speeding up the promotes instead of slowing them down for more through checks. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And obviously, when it says "Wikipedia's best work" it means the upper percentile, not perfect. Just look back at 2005 or so when WP was less developed and all sorts of worse things got through. But as a lot of unrenovated 2005 stuff is still there, maybe you could help patrol FAR and get rid of them, because there are a lot of really bad old ones out there. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But if it's is such an egregious grammatical error, why didn't you fix it? [2] Perhaps it's not obvious to everyone else? Perhaps readers on 1-23 saw that line, thought it perhaps an odd turn of phrase, but deferred to the main authors of the article? Gimmetrow 01:41, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The simple answer is to review articles that "obviously" have these issues, instead of coming here and bringing it up here. Talk is cheap; action is a lot more dear. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 02:50, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but what if I happen to think that WP:FAC is detrimental to Wikipedia, in the resources that it sucks from more productive activity? Physchim62 (talk) 03:08, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe you should MfD it, but that wouldn't be a good idea. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Either way you're not helping solve any problem. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 03:26, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Several featured articles which have appeared on the main page are obviously not "Wikipedia's very best work": that is the problem. If you don't think it's a problem, then there's no poit in discussing it. An article doesn't become good just by passing WP:FAC, and yet that is the impression I get from people who are too involved in the Process. Physchim62 (talk) 03:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Were these 2004-06 era FAs or early 2007 even? Most of these are quite poor, an artefact of the lower standards of yesteryear. I agree that many of these are a relic of the past and need improvement or else punting off. I think you should participate at FAR then, which is undermanned, and most of the articles there are so bad it only takes 2 minutes to inspect them, so it would hardly be a waste of time. Especially as the FAC bar is rising a lot and not so much the FAR bar. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only way to prevent errors from passing through FAC is to review articles yourself. –Juliancolton ^Tropical ^Cyclone 03:42, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only way to prevent errors passing through FAC is to stop people pretending that FA is an indicator of (some hypothetical) article quality. Physchim62 (talk) 03:51, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To put this bluntly, Physchim, you are trolling. Please desist. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 03:55, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is, for contemporary articles, although, most of the abandoned 2004 articles are B class articles, and some of them really atrocious too, which is why I suggest you FAR a few of them to stop them embarrass the better ones. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I take that as an admission that you can't answer the question I put above: What purpose does FAC actually serve? If your only response is that I'm a troll, you're in trouble. Physchim62 (talk) 04:10, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FAC is a review forum to determine our best work; and yes, you are acting like a troll. — Deckill er 04:18, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As Gimmie said earlier, if there something that you feel like should be fixed, either come here and tell the guys "Ok gents, fix x, y and z" or you can fix the articles that appear on the main page. As for the suggestion to go by Wikiprojects, I think that is not wise, because what some Wikiprojects consider a good piece of work, others will feel like it is not. With FAC, there is a set standard that all have to follow. User:Zscout370 ^{(Return Fire)} 04:21, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"It's obvious that the reviewers of the article simply didn't read it, at least not with an ounce of intelligence or respect for the English language." So Tony1, who offered a rare support in his review, never reads any articles that he reviews and doesn't "respect the English language"? Could have fooled me. :-) Giants2008 (17-14) 15:52, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What Zscout said is important to note, because while some projects could theoretically do just fine without FAC (Milhist and Tropical cyclones to name a couple), others have no featured content or experience thereof and would hav problems. How would such Wikiprojects be able to evaluate articles against the high standards? That would also put the smaller or less-active Wikiprojects at a disadvantage, and potentially degrade the quality of those articles becuase less eyes are looking at them. FAC may not be perfect, but it is the best we have now. I agree that as long as the process suffers from a dearth of reviewers, there will be some articles that will "slip through the cracks". The only solution is to review more. To that end, we might just have to start some kind of mass canvassing program from ANI to WT:RFA to recruit more reviewers (only half joking here). Dabomb87 (talk) 16:02, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see what is wrong with that sentence. It states that her brother was four years older than her, which would make him nine. It's a roundabout way of saying it, but I fail to see why it's worth making a fit over it. - Algorerhythms (talk) 16:19, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1): I just cleaned it up myself.[3] That took less than a minute. After the original post, the error remained for almost 16 hours, which disappoints me.

2): The WikiProject idea would lower FA standards, for the reasons that Dabomb gave above.

3): The reviewer shortage is awful, especially when there are more than 50 articles at FAC. Everything grinds to a halt. The problem is that FAC is not an inviting place for new reviewers, and I don't see what can change that. Giants2008 (17-14) 16:29, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Physchim62 said: "...featured articles are meant to represent 'Wikipedia's very best work'...". This is correct; FAs are the very best work on Wikipedia, but that doesn't mean that they're perfect. (Some are.) To find a single typo (even if it's representative of a small number of typos in a small number of articles) and use it to condemn the entire FAC process is just silly. I don't think it makes sense to require FAs to be perfect — and even if it did, it wouldn't be possible due to the aforementioned fallibility of human beings. (How much nicer the world would be if not for that most hated of flaws!) Scartol • Tok 17:19, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I (obviously, if not notoriously) disagree that featured articles currently represent "Wikipedia's very best work". On the other hand, I welcome the comments made about my "WikiProjects" suggestion, and I'll try to come up with a full proposal for discussion. Physchim62 (talk) 01:35, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One wonders if the above is aware that even with published works, that have professional and paid copyeditors, errors still get through? One also wonders if the above has submitted college or uni work, work which they have spent hours or even days on, only to have the odd typo or grammatical error pointed out to them after review - even if one has read and reread that work countless times...--EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 02:07, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If that were the attitude that was taken with Featured article candidates, it wouldn't be surprising that so many errors got through. It's not of course: FAC for the average editor is pure WikiTorture – a little like jumping through hoops on a terrain of quicksand, given the idiosyncrasy of some reviewers. For information, I make a substantial proportion of my RL income from writing or correcting English, and I've both submitted university assignments and corrected them (not the same assignments, obviously!) I don't, however, have the pretension that my work is "the very best" in its field: according to a well known online encyclopedia, "[i]n almost every list pride (or hubris or "vanity") is considered the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins". Physchim62 (talk) 02:51, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So you admit and have exp in knowing that errors do slip through even with a decent standard of work i.e. uni work and/or published articles/books etc

Then surely the fact some errors are slipping through the FAC reviews that doesn’t stop them being the best work available on the wiki.

Isnt a big deal being made out of nothing here? If articles were being passed but were completely inaccurate then I would agree with you that something needs to be done but a few grammar/spelling errors, which have been missed but most likely will be sorted out – whats the big deal really? Aren’t you just making a mountain out of a molehill? to fall back on a cliché --EnigmaMcmxc (talk) 03:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I read the first two posts in this thread, but TLDR the rest. Yes, shit slips throught the FACs. There are only two answers, but one is unacceptable to Wikipedia: Either have someone with top-down authority to override fan-club votes (with or without any Opposes from reviewers), or get many more reviewers.. many more competent reviewers.. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 02:23, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FAC already has some-one with top-down authority, but how does it propose to get more reviewers? Physchim62 (talk) 02:51, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) To the best of my knowledge, no one has top-down authority to Fail a FAC that has three or so fan-club votes and no Opposes. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 03:00, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This biggest problem with rubbish FAs are the relics from olden days that the original author/wikiproject can't be stuffed fixing unless someone puts a gun to their head and threatens to bin their FAs, eg dreadful stuff like Malwa or Brian Close (punted off last year). Having said that, a lot of old timers are pretty delusional and still count their olden day ramblings as legit FAs after they have been removed for having multiple formatting styles mixed together etc and harp on about the modern punks and how articles in the old days were better, which there patently were not. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestions for review criteria

I think the criticism raised above is essentially that FACs are at least sometimes inadequately reviewed. We currently have article criteria but no review criteria, so although we have high standards our enforcement of those standards varies. To address the specific grammar issue raised above a criteria could be added to the FAC process along the lines of "at least one of <some set of grammar experts, perhaps members of WP:grammar> has reviewed the article for grammar". A similar criteria to address domain expertise might be "before being promoted as a FAC any article tagged as within the scope of any (active) wikiproject must be reviewed by at least one member of each such wikiproject". If we're looking for consistency another criteria might be "at least N members of the FAC review board have reviewed the article" where the FAC review board would be a wikiproject of folks willing to dedicate significant time to the FAC process (I would expect this would be more or less the existing "FAC regulars").

Another way to address at least the grammar issue would be to have an explicit checklist for reviewers to fill out based on the FA criteria. The checklist could be coded in a template that reviewers would include in their comments indicating which of the items they had specifically reviewed for. This would become a declaration of sorts - e.g. I reviewed this article for FA criteria 1a(grammar only), 1b, 1c. An article would then only be promotable after at least one reviewer had checked each criteria in the checklist. The implicit assumption today is that each reviewer reviews against all criteria, which is (I think) obviously false.

I think the bottom line is unless we enforce standards for the review process the output of the process will vary - this is sort of a basic quality control issue. Anything of this sort to be implemented should be carefully balanced against m:creep. -- Rick Block (talk) 17:26, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On your first proposal: At the core, this is a good idea, but I am afraid that this might lead to specialization, which has already happened in the source- and image-checking areas. Reviewers who usually look at prose and MOS will be less confident in checking sources or content because they are not considered as the "authority" on the subject areas. Your second proposal sounds interesting, although I don't know what to make of it yet. Dabomb87 (talk) 20:17, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say that more of the hard noses are needed at FAC. A lot of things (at least implementation and scrutiny if not the explicit WIAFA) have risen a lot at FAC, but it seems a bit odd that the FAR enforcements aren't as stringent and the difference between the top 20% of FAs and the worst 20% of FAs is increasing a lot. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:37, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Suggestion for images

Please can you see my suggestion at WT:FA#Images? Simply south not SS, sorry 21:59, 24 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Page size

The FAC page size is approaching 60, reviews are lacking, and we're on track for the lowest number of monthly promotions in about four years, while worthy nominations are stagnating. I've suggested to Gimmetrow that I temporarily return to daily closings to help lower the page size; I also suggest we strictly limit nominators to one FAC at a time until the page size normalizes. Any other ideas? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:21, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about not allowing new nominations to be added to the page until the page size reduces below some limit? Nominators in the queue might then be incented to do reviews. Mike Christie (talk) 15:24, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I follow that as a personal rule, but it doesn't seem like we gain much from stopping them altogether either. I'll just get back to more reviewin'. --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 15:26, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

~~I'd prefer not to limit overall nominations,~~ but by closing daily, I should be able to move off the time-intensive, ill-prepared FACs more quickly. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:28, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re-thinking, struck my comment above; would rather hear more ideas, and keep all possibilities open. Something needs to be done. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:18, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) I remember once seeing someone suggest dividng the FACs into "Active Reviews" and a "Queue". So, say the "Active Review" pool is X articles in size; all other noms are in the queue, in chronological order. The Active Review articles have a time limit of Y days or weeks until they are Passed or Failed. At that point, the top of the stack is popped off the Queue into Active reviews. Lather, Rinse, Repeat. [There might be a mechanism for extended reviews (aka "Marathon Wholesale Rewriting Workshops") This is a bone of contention, though. Let the bickering begin. Grrr.] I've forgotten who suggested that idea. I think I'll try to track it down and give him/her a barnstar. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 16:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're remembering a similar suggestion I made last year. To avoid bureaucracy I would suggest we make it much simpler: Sandy or Raul can choose to comment out new nominations whenever they want to. Commenting out preserves order, so that is automatically a queue. They can uncomment them whenever they want. If there are commented-out nominations, new ones should be added already commented-out; if not, things proceed as at present. Mike Christie (talk) 17:08, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I was talking about myself behind my back: I made the suggestion above. But I think I'll have 2 hours or so free time today. And I may become more regular (an interesting term) in a few weeks, if RL permits. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 01:57, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I believe you're right; sorry for trying to take credit. I think I agreed with you back then too. Mike Christie (talk) 11:46, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As a more drastic measure (not one that I would recommend, but all the same, it might be considered), we could have an admin protect WP:FAC and place edit notices and a banner at the top of the page, explaining that because of the immense backlog, no more nominations are being accepted until FAC has under X number of nominations. Dabomb87 (talk) 17:17, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just an idea. But how about all FAC candidates must have been through a peer review before they come here. It might not do a lot, but perhaps might just put candidates in a better shape before they appear on the FAC page. If they are in a better shape, they might take less time to pass through the system. Peanut4 (talk) 17:19, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An idea that has come up before, but has been rejected each time I believe. I think that there is general opposition to forcing articles to go through another process before coming here (as going through WP:GAN has also been suggested as well). Anyways, I have been reviewing video game FACs lately, so hopefully at least those will build a consensus sooner than normal. Gary King (talk) 17:27, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Really, everyone participating in this thread should just get out and review an article or two. There are very few changes that will preserve the free-flowing nature of the page, or will not drag down other processes (like requiring a peer review; I know poor Ruhrfisch would probably retire if we foisted that upon him.) --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 18:04, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree in principle, but if that answer could solve the problem in practice I don't think we'd be having this conversation. Mike Christie (talk) 18:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fact is, it is a lot easier to sit around and think up ways to address the backlog rather than just doing the dirty work. Not an accusation, just a statement. Having said that, I repented for my participation in this discussion by doing two peer reviews just now [4], [5]. Dabomb87 (talk) 18:47, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps what we are experiencing is a version of the Tragedy of the Commons? A possible solution described in that article is to limit the relevant community to a small enough number that cooperative behaviour is prevalent; I'm referring to the paragraph about Dennis Fox's work. Limiting the number of active nominations might have a similar effect. Mike Christie (talk) 18:30, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's a very interesting analogy. --Malleus Fatuorum 19:03, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, I think being alerted to the fact there is a backlog is helpful as tehre are so many areas to spread oneself that one can miss a page for a while. I have not reviewed much for a while but have been busy elsewhere. Having seen this thread I will try to have a look now. Casliber (talk · contribs) 19:40, 25 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone should take it easy. Remember a couple months ago, when we were seeing FAC dip below 30 noms? Back then, we weren't seeing enough activity here. This is just a shift in the opposite direction, and I have a feeling that it's cyclical. Maybe this is what some mean by FAC "scaling up". I do think that reviewers become discouraged when there are this many noms, because it looks overwhelming. Can't say that I'm overly concerned about it, though. I have a feeling that activity will drop down to normal levels soon. Then again, I don't have to close all of these nominations and deal with upset nominators. Giants2008 (17-14) 01:39, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

User:Ling.Nut/HARI

I'm pressed for time; am shifting much responsibility/work to the nominator(s).
See User:Ling.Nut/HARI for a review method I will adopt whenever I see the need.
Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 06:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think this looks like a very sensible idea from a nominator's perspective as well. It's easier to engage with specific points and the format ("This source says X - is it already in the article, or should it be?") is quite non-confrontational. So I look forward to dealing with this style of review for Dreadnought. The Land (talk) 11:41, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Currently Ling's review generates a subheading, which is a no-no per the FAC instructions. Ling, can the review be done without the subheading? Mike Christie (talk) 11:48, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I put that there manually, because I thought that fourth-level subheadings work OK with transclusion. Have rmvd it; thanks. Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 12:24, 26 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FA quality, and more FARs to improve it

Per, the latest kerfuffle: This biggest problem with rubbish FAs are the relics from olden days that the original author/wikiproject can't be stuffed fixing unless someone puts a gun to their head and threatens to bin their FAs, eg dreadful stuff like Malwa or Brian Close (punted off last year). Let's face it, humans work that way. So I think FAR is a pretty strong incentive to improve poor FAs, and the vast amount of problems with FAs is from the way old FAs, rather than current FACs. There are hundreds of 2006 and before, and even a few poor FAs in early 2007 like Technopark Kerala, a lot of which are worse than GAs and even some B class articles. The other thing is that with the likes of Ealdgyth etc on FAC, the standards in FAC have been rising a lot but with FAR this has been less so, and I think the standard deviation between the worst and better (new) FAs is increasing. Especially because of the need for consensus to change, sometimes a couple of dubious WikiProject "keeps" at FA is enough to get a FAR to crawl home when an article is still only half fixed up.

Having said that, a lot of old timers are pretty delusional and still count their olden day ramblings as legit FAs after they have been removed for having multiple formatting styles mixed together, ridiculous English, no sources, random geocities websites used as sources etc and harp on about the modern punks and how articles in the old days were better, which there patently were not. YellowMonkey (click here to vote for world cycling's #1 model!) 01:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm more than happy to pop over to FAR when requested, I just can't add another duty to my pile... I had to drop FLC as being too much time away from writing articles (which, in the end, is the point, right?) Anytime someone wants me to weigh in on an FAR, drop a note on my talk page. Sandy already had that open invite for FAR, anyone else is welcome to it too. Ealdgyth - Talk 02:00, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gosh YM, ~~you taking the Australia's dismal run pretty badly~~ good point. I have my finger in a few too many pies but try to pop in every once in a while. Just trying to help out with a few current FACs first...Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In my locale, "rubbish" is a very loaded, dismissive word. Thinking about the real spirit behind policies like WP:NPA, which gets quoted any time someone acts a little naughty... well, I'd rather have someone tell me to "fuck off" on Wikipedia than I would have someone describe the effort of any volunteer, including me, as "rubbish". No, your attitude and the existence of FAR are not "incentives"; in fact, they're very much the reason why a person seeking any sort of middle way on wikipedia learns eventually to just stay the hell away from it, at least in any substantive capacity; especially to stay away from the self-appointed experts on what constitutes a quality article. –Outriggr § 06:54, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

YellowMonkey isn't trying to denigrate anyone's work, but let's face it; many of those articles are poorly written and under-referenced, making them less than middling GA rather than FA according to today's standards. We don't need "self-appointed" experts on what makes a quality article because we have criteria; and frankly, if you don't want your work being judged critically, why the hell did you try and have your writing featured in the first place (let alone write on the wiki?) --Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 12:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Critical assessment is fine, but "rubbish" isn't critical assessment. I'm quite willing to believe that YM has reason for his comments and that the cited articles are below current standards, but like Outriggr I'd prefer it if we could avoid such terms as "rubbish" in this sort of conversation. There's plenty of scope for people to get upset without starting off with emotive language. Mike Christie (talk) 13:12, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]