Talk:Leon Trotsky

Leiba or Lev?

Once again we have an article that speaks with forked tongue. Was his original birth name Lev (as per the lede) or Leiba (as per lower down in the story)? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 07:21, 18 February 2010 (UTC)

The original name is Leiba. Lev is a "translation" of his name into Russian and most commonly used. Those names are often considered to be interchangable. If in doubt - use Leiba.--80.232.251.18 (talk) 17:00, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Trotsky, Zionism and revert war

I gave three reliable sources showing that in his last years Trotsky supported Zionism: [1][2] [3]

But user User:RolandR for a reason reverted my edit. After entering his page I saw he is clearly a biased anti-Zionist. Is it ok that reliable references are deleted because some Anti-Zionist doesn't like that? What about NPOV?

Trotsky always explicitly opposed Zionism; he never wavered in this. Two of the sources you cite actually repeat this, and do not support your interpretation. The third is a totally unreliable blog whose purpose is "defending Israel, defending Jews against antisemitism, support for Serbs, unity of Serbs and Jews". Your edit is completely untrue, it lacks any reliable sources (which would not be available since the suggestion is totally false), and is impermissible. RolandR (talk) 09:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Bibliography

I can't believe someone hasnt taken the time to create a proper bibliography for trotsky. these are all external links to marxist websites. he did write books that were published using paper, and are in libraries around the world. Wikipedians of the world, unite! you have nothing to lose but your bracketed external links!Mercurywoodrose (talk) 04:59, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

The links are, overwhlemingly, to works by Trotsky. It's more useful to link to the book or article online than to the ISBN of the book. If we can thing, as you have done, that is great. But it's not a problem to link to Trotsky's works online. --Duncan (talk) 00:42, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, i think its more scholarly to show the original context of his works publications. I agree that linking to actual texts, if they are not copyright violations, is fine, but that would be better in an external link section. From this article section, one wouldnt know if the pieces linked to were, say, pamphlets, or essays that got published in newspapers or magazines not purely marxist, or books published by either general publishers or marxist publishing companies, or collections published posthumously by university presses or communist government publishers, etc etc etc. all these distinctions would help show Trotsky's actual notability both within the history of communism and outside it, including its critics. as it is, the section being all external links makes it look promotional, just the sort of thing a curious reader would think that a committed marxist of some stripe might do, to disguise the notability and promote their hero, thus leading a curious reader to suspect that there are actual cabals making sure certain subjects are not covered impartially. We really dont want WP to become like that, and even the appearance of impropriety is to be avoided. i make no assumptions about the motives behind all the external links, it just reads wrong to me. but i wont make changes without some consensus.Mercurywoodrose (talk) 03:54, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Real Trotzky birth information

Лев АННИНСКИЙ

обозреватель журнала "Родина"

Родственники?

Этой осенью я участвовал в телепрограмме А. Гордона, где в прямом эфире обсуждался "еврейский вопрос". По этому поводу мой старый знакомец и коллега литератор Владимир Козаровецкий прислал следующее письмо:

"Лев, я видел в программе А.Гордона по НТВ передачу по "еврейскому вопросу " с твоим участием - и немало позабавился. Ты раз десять (один раз. - JI.A.) повторил во время вашего разговора, что Троцкий не хотел быть евреем, ссылаясь на фразу, сказанную им еврейской делегации, когда она пришли просить защиты от большевиков: "Скажите тем, кто вас послал, что я не еврей ". Между тем фразу эту надо понимать не в переносном, а в прямом смысле: Троцкий действительно не был евреем, фамилия Бронштейн была фамилией приемных, родителей его отца.

Лев Троцкий был прямым потомком Пушкина по внебрачной линии, он знал, почему его старшего брата и сестру назвали Александром и Ольгой (это исследовал и об этом писал недавно умерший пушкинист Александр Лацис). Дитя любви Пушкина и польки Анжелики Дембинской было отправлено в семью Раевских; Н.Н.Раевский-младший (Пушкин о нем в письме к брату Льву 8 сентября 1820 года: "Ты знаешь нашу тесную связь и важные услуги, для меня вечно незабвенные ") поручил французу Фурнье отвезти ребенка в их южное имение под Полтавой, где полковой священник исполнил обряд и выписал метрическое свидетельство. Мальчику присвоили фамилию матери и предположительно назвали, в честь крестного отца, Л.В.Дубельта, Леонтием. В дальнейшем "Фурнье присматривал за воспитанием, и посему ребенок неплохо выучил французский язык " (А.Лацис).

Леонтий Дембинский страдал подагрой, к концу жизни Раевского стал его секретарем и читал умирающему французские книги. У вдовы генерала было две кузины: с одной из кузин у Дембинского состоялся роман, и около 1846 года она родила ребенка, которого, как было принято поступать с незаконнорожденными детьми дворян, отдали в надежную, непьющую - еврейскую - семью.

В доме Давыда Леонтьевича Бронштейна, на хуторе Яновка, куда он со своей семьей приехал из Грамоклеи (с юга Полтавской губернии) не говорили ни на иврите, ни на идише, религиозных обычаев не соблюдали, по субботам работали.

Младшего сына Давыда Леонтьевича назвали Львом. У Льва Давидовича Бронштейна, как и у Пушкина, случались беспричинные обмороки; как и у Пушкина, у Троцкого был нервный тик в левом углу рта (Пушкин не грыз ногти, как думали некоторые, а прикрывал свой нервный тик, держа у уголка рта то карандаш, то перо, то просто закрывая его рукой); были и другие совпадения наследственных признаков: подагра, близорукость, желудочно-кишечные неприятности, - но первые два, вместе с беспредельной любовью к слову, - решающие.

Неосторожность С.Тессена и Б.Модзалевского, озвучивших эту информацию кому-то из своих друзей после выхода в Париже автобиографии Троцкого "Моя жизнь", и привела их к гибели: Гессена в 1937 году насмерть сбила машина на одной из центральных площадей Ленинграда ("Машина гонялась за ним, как за мухой"), а Модзалевский "выпал " из поезда Москва-Ленинград. Не исключено, считал Лацис, что и смерть Б.В.Томашевского в 1945 году (прекрасный пловец, он "утонул") не случайна и что он тоже стал жертвой избыточной информированности о жизни поэта, биография которого была канонизирована и всегда тщательно охранялась (и охраняется до сих пор) от нежелательных трактовок и ассоциаций, - чему косвенно способствуешь и ты.

Вл. Козаровецкий

P.S. Чтобы сказанное не показалось тебе досужей выдумкой: я - председатель комиссии по литературному наследию А.Лациса. В.К."

Я думаю, читателям, даже и не продвинутым в глубины и тонкости пушкинистики, будет интересно познакомиться с гипотезой о родстве великого поэта и великого революционера - безотносительно к тому, какая кровь: негритянская, еврейская, польская или русская - текла в их жилах. Национальная принадлежность - это все-таки не столько голос крови, сколько голос сознания, это выбор, решение, осознанный акт. Если Троцкий заявлял, что он не еврей, значит, он не еврей, и лучше всего с этим примириться. Это тем более разумно, что еврейская принадлежность имеет в представлении многих людей какой-то мистический отсвет и вызывает чрезмерно острые эмоции.

Писатель Юрий Нагибин, например, всю жизнь надеялся, что он еврей, а на старости лет выяснил, что он русский, и был разочарован. Тут, я думаю, можно издать вздох облегчения: теперь Троцкому незачем отвечать в качестве еврея за все то, что он натворил в качестве революционера. С чем можно поздравить евреев, русских, а также всех, кто интересуется подробностями отечественной истории. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.22.162.235 (talk) 21:01, 16 August 2010 (UTC) It came from here http://berkovich-zametki.com/Nomer11/Anninsky1.htm, but originated from here http://istrodina.com/rodina_articul.php3?id=1134&n=59

Rodina is a Russian historical illustrated journal established by the Administration of the President of Russian Federation. This particular article came from volume 2 for 2002, so hardly news.

Lev Anninsky is a well known literary critic and writer in Russia with his own Wikipedia article http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%90%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%9B%D0%B5%D0%B2_%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

Maybe you can get a Russian speaker to fix the translation since I just don't have the time, sorry —Preceding unsigned comment added by 120.18.10.134 (talk) 23:53, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

This is unreferenced. I don't think we can use it. I have put a machine translation below. --Duncan (talk) 23:25, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Lev Anninsky

Columnist, "Homeland"

Relatives?

This fall, I participated in a televised A. Gordon, where the air was discussed "the Jewish question". On this occasion, my old friend and colleague, writer Vladimir Kozarovetsky sent the following letter:

"Leo, I saw a program on NTV A. Gordon's transfer to the" Jewish question "with your participation - and amused. You're ten times (once. - JI.A.) repeated during your conversation, that Trotsky did not want to be Jew, referring to the phrase uttered by a Jewish delegation that when she came to seek protection from the Bolsheviks: "Tell those who sent you that I am not a Jew." Meanwhile, this phrase should be understood not in a figurative and literal sense: Trotsky really was not a Jew, was the name surname Bronstein adoptive, parents of his father.

Leon Trotsky was a direct descendant of Pushkin's illegitimate line, he knew why his older brother and sister named Alexander and Olga (it's researched and wrote about it recently deceased Alexander Pushkin scholar Latsis). Child love Pushkin and polka Angelica Dembinski was sent to the family Rayevskys; N.N.Raevsky Jr. (Pushkin about it in a letter to his brother Leo September 8, 1820: "You know our close bond and important services, for me forever unforgettable") Fournier asked the Frenchman to take the child in their southern estate of Poltava, where the regimental priest performed the ceremony and issued birth certificate. The boy was given his mother's name and presumably named in honor of his godfather, LV Dubbelt, Leontiev. In the future, "Fournier took care of education, and so the child is a good idea to learn French" (A. Lacis).

Leonti Dembinski gout, by the end of life Rajewski began his secretary and read the dying French books. The widow of General had two cousins: one of the cousins have Dembinski held a novel, and about 1846 she gave birth to a child, which as been taken to deal with illegitimate children of nobles, gave a reliable, non-drinker - Jewish - the family.

The house Davyd Leontyevich Bronstein, on the farm Yanivka, where he and his family arrived from Gramoklei (from the south province of Poltava) spoke neither Hebrew nor Yiddish, religious practices do not comply, on Saturdays.

Younger son Davyd Leontyevich named Leo. In Lev Davidovich Bronstein, like Pushkin, have found no cause fainting, and like Pushkin, Trotsky was a nervous tic in the left corner of the mouth (Pushkin never bit his nails, as some people think, and covered his tic, holding a corner of the mouth with a pencil , then the pen, then simply closing his hand) were other coincidences hereditary traits: gout, myopia, gastro-intestinal troubles - but the first two, with boundless love for the word, - to solve.

Carelessness C. Tessa and B. Modzalevsky, voiced this information to someone from their friends after Paris Trotsky's autobiography "My Life", and led them to destruction: Hesse in 1937, the death hit by a car on a central square in Leningrad ( The car chase after him like a fly "), and Modzalevsky" fell "from the train from Moscow to Leningrad. It is possible, thought Latsis, the death of a TomaSevskij in 1945 (an excellent swimmer, he "drowned") is not accidental and that he too was a victim of excessive awareness of the poet's life, whose biography was canonized, and always carefully guarded (and guarded until now) from unwanted interpretations and associations - which indirectly sposobstvuesh and you.

Vl. Kozarovetsky

P.S. To the above does not show you the idle fancy: I - Head of Commission on the literary legacy of Latsis. VK "

I think readers do not even advanced to the depth and subtlety of Pushkin scholars, it will be interesting to get acquainted with the hypothesis about the relationship of the great poet and a great revolutionary - without regard to what breed: Negro, Jewish, Polish or Russian - flowed in their veins. National identity - it's still not so much the voice of blood, as the voice of consciousness, it is a choice, decision, a conscious act. If Trotsky declared that he was not a Jew, so he was not a Jew, and the best way to reconcile. This is all the more reasonable, that Jewish identity is in the minds of many people some kind of mystical glow and is extremely sharp emotions.

Writer Yuri Nagibin, for example, all my life hoping that he was a Jew, but in his old age found that he was Russian, and was disappointed. Here, I think, you can issue a sigh of relief: now there is no need to answer to Trotsky as a Jew, for all that he had done as a revolutionary. From what we can congratulate Jews, Russian, and all those interested in the details of national history.

• I have added the hypothesis and its criticism to the article. Latsis was a reasonably notable pushkinist and his opinion desrves a couple of sentences Alex Bakharev (talk) 13:30, 18 August 2010 (UTC)