Talk:Ernest Hemingway

World Record

I have heard that Hemingway once held the world record for having caught the world's heaviest Marlin. Someone could verify this and add it to the article. I think it was the biggest tuna.

where are his pictures?

Can anybody tell why somebody reomved Hemingway's two pictures in this article? in one he was sitting on stairs and in the another he was writing on a table, they were good pictures, please put them back if you have them.

A clean well-lighted place

A critic of; A clean well-lighted place'

The short story, A clean well-lighted place, was first published by Hemingway in 1933 while living in Spain, during a worldwide great depression, and after he fought in the First World War. Ernest Hemingway’s writing is honest, simple, open-ended, and yet still provocative. The reason it is provocative, is not because it is complex or detailed, it is because the details are left to the reader to fill in the absent details. Hemingway leaves much of the detail up to the reader. There are no names of characters, no description of the café, there is nothing more than a simple story that the reader can interpret for himself. This type of writing gives a reader opportunity in many aspects; one could be to see himself. A clean well-lighted place is the essences of a man’s soul. A man’s life can be broken down into three simple phases in life. Each phase represents different point, values, needs, wants, and desires. What this short story really gives the reader is an opportunity to look at their own life. In this simple easy to read short story it seems that Hemmingway has left much of the imagery and description of characters up to the reader. All this emptiness forces the reader to fill the story with their own thoughts and ideas of what and where this story is taking place. The most interesting part of the story is not in the nothingness, although that does play an important part, or who is really saying what lines, rather it is in the three characters of men. Each represents a different point in one man’s life. Hemingway is giving the reader a chance to look at his own life in retrospect before he regrets what it may become one-day. The reader is given a young impatient waiter, an older waiter, and an eighty year old man with lots of money. This is the life cycle of a man’s life. The young waiter represents the first stage in a man’s life. Young men are more often impatient and unaffectionate of the world around them. They can be sloppy and immature many times. They care more about their wants and needs then the rest. This is seen twice once when the young man says about the old man; he has no regard for those who must work. The other time is when the young waiter is pouring the brandy and slopped it all over the place spilling it. The young man assumes everyone should be considerate of him, but does not care about how he treats others. The young waiter thinks he is more important. When many young Americans went to Europe to fight in the First World War they saw it as a glorious task and they were invincible. What they were doing was more important in their own eyes. After the war many of them had changed in ways they could not have anticipated. The older waiter represents the second and longest stage in a man’s life. A young man ceases to be young once he understands that there is more to his world then just his ideals. That he is not always right and controls nothing more than the time he spends in this world. This only happens when a man’s life is altered by forces stronger than his own, just as Hemingway’s was when he was injured in Italy. The older waiter is more understanding of the old man staying to drink and enjoy his life. He is in no rush because he has a greater understanding of life. This is obvious when the older waiter asks the younger waiter, why didn’t you let him stay and drink. Despite anything else what is important is that nothing else matters except respect of each other. This is the cardinal rule that the older waiter has come to understand. The older waiter has nothing left in life to prove he does not need to rush home or waste an hour doing something else he does not really need to do. All he has left to do in his life is his job, simple and easy. One day both of the waiters will become the old man. The old man represents the final stage in a man’s life. He represents the point that a man reaches when he has done all he can and has seen all he wants. The old man wants nothing more than to leave the world only to be rescued by his loved ones. The old man is clean and dignified despite the treatment of the young waiter he is tempered and only wishes to drink more. The old man has the young waiter fill his brandy glass telling the waiter a little more; the glass is the symbol for life. The glass is filled and overflows with brandy. The old man is telling the reader his life is full. It is not half empty or half full but fulfilled. When the young waiter refuses to serve the old man anymore the old man leaves without becoming angry or upset, showing the young waiter that nothing more than integrity and respect matter. The young waiter shows how selfish he is to the reader. Hemingway is depicting one man’s life through the three men in the story. Each has something to give but nothing to lose; each of the men is telling the reader about their own life depending on what point they are at in their life cycle. Each man represents a stage in a man’s life; one of youth with the whole world before him, another who has lived long enough to know nothing else matters than how you treat others, and the last one is the old man who has lived his life ready to leave this world with dignity. The openness of this story allows the reader to place himself in each man in the story at his own local café, pub, bar, or bodega. This opportunity gives the reader the chance not to make the same mistakes that lead to a lonely life. The young waiter is so selfish eventually he will lose his wife becoming the older waiter because it is too late for him to reconcile and finally becoming the old man in the café waiting for death to take him. This leaves the reader with an understanding that in life all anyone has is a small window in time, and in that window is an opportunity. What a person does with a given opportunity is up to them. That is what Hemmingway is telling the reader and the proof is in one simple question, what is an hour?

Needs a rewrite also

Understanding Hemingway

Throughout Hemingway’s work there are reoccurring themes that revolve around life. It is this reoccurring theme that dominates his work and it is what makes it so important in day’s life. This theme is also what makes Hemingway’s work ageless. The agelessness of his writing makes it easy for any person from any generation to slip themselves inside the story. Because the stories leave out in-depth detail about individual and scenery one could place themselves as any character as well. What Hemingway’s is telling his audience is about life, just as other critics, David Daiches did in 1941 and Bern Oldsey did in 1963, have stated.

Hemingway’s writing is simple and allows the audience to follow it and to fill in the details to fit the reader so that way they feel they are in the story. The structure of the sentences is calming and easy flowing, giving the reader the feel that they need to continue on the story.

A Clean Well Lighted-Place, The Snows of Kilimanjaro, and The Old man and The Sea are perfect examples of Hemingway’s lean yet complex work. Each one presents the audience with unique characters. All are men either searching out something or coming to grips with a part of their life coming to an end. A clean well lighted place gives the reader three men each at different stages of life. The young waiter is brazen and cares for no one except what he wants. The older waiter is understanding and shows compassion for others. The old man in the story has lived his life and accomplished everything he wants in life. Each of these men can be seen as the different stages of life in one man’s life. But, they can also be seen as something more. The young waiter is the man in Kilimanjaro who is injured by his own fault. Because he cared for no one else, not even his wife who loves him so dearly, he loses everything. It is in the last moments in his life that he realizes what truly matters. The older waiter is the old man in The Old man and The Sea. He is the old man because he understood what is important to life and realizes that life is a struggle and in life man must look beyond today and always push forward. The old man is a mentor to a young boy to teach him that humans cannot hesitate. The audience is able to see themselves as the boy since in a way they all being mentored by the old man and Hemingway. From the trials and tribulations that Hemingway went through in life he is attempting through his writings to warn men of the faults and vices and focused of the virtues in life. The Old Man and the Sea tells the reader that even in defeat there is some sort of victory. It is what a man makes out of life that determines what happens in his own life. Simply said combine all the works the main theme is that in life there are more important things then war, victory, self-interest, momentary pleasures. It’s the long term part of man’s life that is important. At any given moment it could all be swept away and in that everything that was thought to be important is gone and all that is left is what was real to everyone. The reader must ask themselves a question about life, their actions, and Ultimately each one of use will face the same fate with death. Not one person will ever know for sure when they will die. All Hemingway was telling the world is, do not take this life for granted. Enjoy it for what you have and when the opportunity presents itself be ready to act just as the old man did when he lowered his six lines in the sea to create his own luck. When humans think of life we all attempt to quantify it with either a cup half full or climbing a mountain or even attempting to catch the big fish to prove we are still worthy to ourselves and the world. In that all readers can gain the respect that Hemingway deserves for all his work. That is why he published many of his short stories together in a single book called, The Fifth Column and the First Forty-Nine Stories. Hemingway’s experiences throughout his life gave him a more understanding of humanity and life and published the stories with the hope that others would see the truth about their own life and not to make the mistakes of the previous generations. It is the hope of every generation that the next one will be better than the previous one and Hemingway shows the world the truth about humanity instead of sugar coating it. At the end the audience interprets the stories their own way, this interpretation leads one to conclude that maybe there is more to the story then just what Hemingway was writing and that there are deeper meanings for everyone depending on their point in life.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ernest_Hemingway:_The_Collected_Stories

one more

Ernest Hemingway’s legacy

Key West celebrates Hemingway

Ernest Hemingway spent ten years of his life living on the Key West Island. While there he spent his time writing some of the greatest classics, which include “The Snows of Kilimanjaro”. He spent much of his time, while living in Key West, at his favorite watering hole Sloppy Joes’ bar. Each year Key West hold’s a celebration in honor of Ernest Hemingway, named Hemingway days festival. Throughout the celebration members of the community come together to honor one of the greatest writers in American history, in various ways, the celebration last over a few days culminating in a look-alike contest at Sloppy Joes. During the Hemingway days, there is a short story contest fishing contest, along with readings from authors. The 2008 celebration included some members from Hemingway’s family, his grandson Edward Hemingway and granddaughter Lorain Hemingway. His grandson is a writer and illustrator and used the celebrations to showcase his new children’s book. Edward said while at the festival “I imagine my grandfather would get a kick out of the festival. The spirit of his life is here in Key West.’’ http://www.miamiherald.com/577/story/611618.html

Minor typo

In the penultimate line in the introduction, the word 'considerable' is misspelled.

Hemingway and Mental Illness

Validity and Timeliness of Hemingway's diagnosis of Manic-Depressive Illness, today known as Bipolar Disorder. Should it be included, what are reliable sources, how should it be worded.Tstrobaugh (talk) 20:21, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

First, I suggest that Tstrobaugh read WP:MEDMOS and WP:MEDRS. Second, he has linked above to an abstract of a reliable medical source, but has not provided full quotes-- from the abstarct only, it appears doubtful that the source adequately backs the claim, or that the claim enjoys widespread medical consensus, as in the case of Johnson. Third, I suggest that Tstrobaugh might read Samuel Johnson to understand the quality of the medical sources backing Johnsons' post-humous TS diagnosis (and there are *many* more, from top experts in the field). Unless Tstrobaugh can come up with similar medical literature backing the post-humous diagnosis, that info has no place in this article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:49, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

If who ever is making this claim would please provide a review article or medical textbook per WP:MEDRS I will look at it and give my opinion.Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 23:17, 17 June 2010 (UTC)

The modern criteria for bipolar I and II disorders are here. Please note that for both them them: Episodes of Substance-Induced Mood Disorder (due to the direct effects of a medication, or other somatic treatments for depression, a drug of abuse, or toxin exposure) or of Mood Disorder Due to a General Medical Condition do not count toward a diagnosis of Bipolar [I or II] Disorder. Thus, this is basically an impossible diagnosis to make in a chronic alcoholic who is still drinking. Since EH spent the last 15-20 years of his life as an alcoholic, how can anyone today possibly diagnose him based on history from that time? Alcoholism makes people happy-then-depressed, happy-then-depressed. You know? If the diagnosis of "manic depression" came from a psychiatrist who actually saw EH, we need to know who it was. The diagnosis would be notable (even if we might not agree with it today), but its existance should be something better than one person's hearsay, repeated without being sure of its provenance. The legal, journalistic (and biblical) standard is "two reliable witnesses." So if two separate people say that Dr. X said after examining EH that he was manic depressive, that should be enough. Even though (as I said) I wouldn't believe it, I wouldn't argue against inclusion here. SBHarris 00:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Bipolar only came into existence in 1953 [1] a few years before his death. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Doc James, from the source you pointed to above: "Bipolar disorder is the modern term for manic-depressive illness. Emil Kraepelin introduced the term manic-depressive illness in 1899 in the sixth edition of his psychiatric textbook. For Kraepelin, manic-depressive illness was a single morbid process. It included manic, mixed and depressed states." What is your point with the "1953" comment?Tstrobaugh (talk) 13:33, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Here's the abstract of Christopher Martin's article from which this information seems to originate. [2] As It's heavily qualified as I've noted above. I have boldly added a piece, here, clearly attributing the information and adding qualifiers. Am quite happy for these edits to be reviewed. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 20:34, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Seems like the evidence is clear that there are insufficient primary sources for a diagnosis. Literary medicine is a great pastime but the standard for Wikipedia remains two or more primary sources, does it not? Panera3769 (talk) 13:48, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

I didn't realize that. Can you link to the relevant policy requiring multiple sources? Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:18, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Infobox information

For an article such as this it's best not to fill the infobox with influences. The infobox was cleaned out by another editor in January with this edit. The article itself indicates the influences and relationships with a number of writers, all cited and verified with scholarly reliable sources. Moreover, because a writer such as Hemingway had a large number of influences, (Pound, Kipling, Fitzgerald, Proust, to name a few) and influenced much of 20th century American lit., it is subjective to add only some influences and not all, but that's beyond the scope of this article. The infobox, is there is one, needs only basic information such as birth date and so on, in my view. For more information see WP:DISINFO. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:35, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore, a student project for a 200 level English class isn't considered a reliable source. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:44, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Protect again

If any admins have this page on their watchlist, please replace the semi-protection that was lifted recently. A lot of vandalism here. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:14, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Yup. "He also had a rare illness which made him fireproof." Made me lol irl though. Icanhasaccount has an account 02:16, 16 September 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Icanhasaccount (talk • contribs)

Suicide

"Hemingway's chin, mouth, and lower cheeks were left, but the upper half of his head was blown away." Isn't that a little too much graphic detail on his suicide? Sure, you shouldn't censor information, but that just seems like too much. -65.30.183.17 (talk) 17:57, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Will have a look at that. It wasn't that graphic when originally written. Thanks for posting. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 17:59, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Favorite meal

I read somewhere that Hemingway ate his favorite meal before he committed suicide. Could we possibly add that information? Bulldog73 (talk) 08:56, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know and according the sources used to verify the article, Hemingway woke up early one morning and shot himself at about 6:30 / 7:00 a.m. His wife was still asleep. I can't imagine, somehow, the man in the kitchen cooking and then shooting himself. But just to make certain, I'll the biographies again. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 13:17, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

He was in the foyer or "hall" of the house, just inside the main entrance/front door. Historically you may know that all Northern European houses were originally built around a great Feasting and Sleeping Hall, with the other rooms, just side rooms. As houses evolved, the "hall" shrank until it's now just a short "vestigial" space to wipe feet and hang coats and things, inside the front door. Hemingway's house in Ketchum was of this design, and that's where he killed himself. It was tiled, like most entrance places, and would have been the easiest part of the house to clean (and was in fact cleaned very rapidly, despite the gruesome job). It was also closest to the outdoors and the light. We can speculate that H. didn't want to kill himself in his dark basement, from which he'd retrieved the shotgun. This information (minus my historical explanation of foyers), as well as the info about the damage to his head, is in Meyers, pp. 560-61.

BTW, if H. had just had his favorite meal before killing himself, it would a pint of grapefruit and lime juice, white rum, and grenadine. No cooking required. SBHarris 16:54, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

No; according to my source (which is by the way an Uncle John's Bathroom Reader), some of the things he ate were New York strip steak and Caesar salad, if I remember correctly. He did, however drink a glass of Bordeaux. Bulldog73 (talk) 23:49, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

Hate to tell you this, but your bathroom reader is wrong. He could not possibly have cooked a steak, made himself a salad, all in the wee hours of the morning, without waking his wife, and then found the key to the locked gun cabinet and shot himself in the head. Just didn't happen that way. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:07, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Last Book

Dear Friends,

Please help me, as I understood "The old man and the sea", Ernest Hemmingway, was infact written while living in a small east coast village in Southern Africa with a friend who assisted him in correction plus health which was not well- Is this in fact so?

Kindest Regards, Nicol 20th Feb. 2011 South America —Preceding unsigned comment added by 190.160.99.191 (talk) 21:25, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

No, he wrote it at his house in Havana, Cuba. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:31, 20 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Tudza, 5 March 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

According to a recent book, Hemingway's Guns: The Sporting Arms of Ernest Hemingway, the shotgun Hemingway used to kill himself was not made by Boss. It was made by W.C. Scott.

Tudza (talk) 12:58, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

Will look into it. Thanks. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:01, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

After checking, am not inclined to change this at the moment. The best-known biographers, (Baker, Meyers, Mellow and Reynolds - all listed as sources in the article) claim it was a Boss shotgun. The earlier biographers had access to family interviews, and it would have been reported in the press at the time. Certainly he had a gun cabinet in his basement with more than one rifle/shotgun, but consensus seems to be the one he chose that morning was the Boss. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:51, 5 March 2011 (UTC)

 Not done: Per above, I'm going to decline. Reaper Eternal (talk) 01:34, 6 March 2011 (UTC)

Nobel prize speech audio fragment

Copied from my talkpage in response to these edits [3], [4], and this comment to explain my revert of the inclusion of the file.

Copied text:

Hi Truthkeeper88- The audio fragment is a from a well-known (but minimally documented) set of recordings that Hemingway made with a portable wire-recorder in his home. Most of these recordings were apparently done in Cuba, and several show him to be deep into the bottle-- although amusing and informative nonetheless. The ones that have been circulating for the past two decades come from a Caedmon Audio cassette/CD release called "Ernest Hemingway Reads Ernest Hemingway" (ISBN-13: 978-0898459586), and the copyright implies the rights are held by the Hemingway Estate (although truly, they provide almost no substantive information in the notes). I suppose I could add the track number (there of course is no page number)to flesh out the reference. The main point here, which I tried to clarify in my caption note (apparently not successfully) is that although Hemingway was not in Stockholm, this is the speech he prepared, and was read for him by U.S. Ambassador to Sweden John C. Cabot. LATER, apparently in December 1954, according to Caedmon, he recorded the speech at home with the wire-recorder. I added the fragment to the Wikipedia page just to give a flavor of Hemingway's speaking voice, which I find always adds another dimension to our understanding of an individual-- I'm thinking of young students who may working on a report, or just in curiosity about such a huge literary figure. Does that answer your concern? Seeker56 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Seeker56 (talk • contribs) 01:03, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

My concern is this: if the estate holds copyright, can we use the fragment? Anything that hasn't been donated to the JFK Library is clearly held by John and Patrick Hemingway (or their heirs), and I don't know enough about copyright re: ogg files. Because this is a featured article, it's been through a image review, and I don't want to add anything that infringes on copyright. If this speech is included in the NobelPrize.org site I'd feel more comfortable using it, but am not all that comfortable using copyrighted material. The Hemingway estate is very protective about their copyrights. Also, we need a secondary source explaining the circumstances of the recording. If you could get that to me, and we can clear up the copyright issue, then I'm not against adding it. Oh, btw if you end your posts with four tildes ~~~~ your sig will appear automatically. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:12, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd like some input, and will research the copyright status on this. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:37, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

I've found this on Nobelprize.org. My ear isn't good enough to tell whether their different readers. If it's the same person, we should use the Nobelprize.org piece, which is already linked in the article. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:00, 9 March 2011 (UTC)

Hemingway's journalism and writing teacher

Can you explain, truthkeeper, why you have twice removed mention of Hemingway's school teacher Fannie Biggs and the source I cited? And why you say there is no mention in the source of 'sentimentality' - have you looked? "In his junior year... Ernest enrolled in Journalism and in a writing course built around the short story. Both were taught by the best teacher in the school, Miss Fannie Biggs... Miss Biggs conducted her Journalism course as though the classroom were a newspaper office... Miss Biggs's criteria for a good article were: "Tell your whole story in the first paragraph; develop details in relation to their importance; leave the least important things to the end. The editor may have to cut your stuff". In addition she gave exercises in expanding one-sentence news items to fill a column. Possessed of a sharp tongue, but a fair and perceptive critic, Fannie Biggs saw to it that her best students went on to produce, as Ernest and Marcelline did, the high-school weekly Trapeze... In her journalism course, Fannie Biggs emphasized such techniques as how to arrest the reader's attention, how to convey information clearly and quickly, and how to edit. But in her writing course the demands were greater. The cliches and stereotypes that could give journalism a casual and familiar tone now were to be abjured. Posing and mannerisms would not be tolerated, and sentimentality would be mocked...." (pp.25-26) I read this book (Along with Youth by Peter Griffin, OUP 1987) a few months ago and was surprised to find no mention of this woman in the article when I checked it last night. I've no problem with my contributions being cut or edited on stylistic or other grounds if justifiable, but it strikes me as rather odd that you think this information about a remarkable woman who seems to have been a formative influence on EH's writing style is not worthy of inclusion. Costesseyboy (talk) 22:31, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi. First, thanks for bringing this to the talk page. The problem with a biography of person such as Hemingway is that it's difficult to make choices regarding what should go in and what shouldn't while keeping the page from getting any longer than it is. Also, because it's a featured article the formatting for sources has to be consistent. I'm not entirely convinced we need to name a writing teacher and I've read the major biographies about Hemingway and quite honestly have never heard of Fannie Biggs. I did look to see whether Michael Reynolds, who wrote a four volume biography, mentions her. He does, but very little ( see page 260 ). So we don't really know how much she influenced him, but apparently we know about her teaching style. The emphasis here has to be on Hemingway and not on all the people, of whom there were many, who influenced him. That said, I like the description of the piece about the school orchestra he wrote for the Trapeze, which I think can work well as a transition sentence in that section and then I was thinking that the information about Ms Biggs might go into a note. It you don't mind, I'd like to give it a little thought as to how to do it well. I'm also thinking that a longer bit could be devoted to her on the article about the iceberg theory where I've focused more on his style and influences. Hope this is helpful. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:14, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

No problem at all, take your time. Sure, we can't know 100% that she influenced his style, but it seems likely since apparently she was known for advocating, broadly, the kind of style he became famous for. Even just the fact that she taught him journalism and the short story - 2 things EH is celebrated for - I find significant. I can't find exactly where Griffin got the info on Biggs but he spoke to 3 of EH's classmates - and the Oxford University Press is a pretty well respected publisher. I think it's really interesting that a writer whose writing style, as well as his lifestyle, is often characterised in such masculine terms may have owed at least some of what made him so successful to a female teacher. I do think FB merits some mention - she has to be at least as worthy of inclusion as the fact that he had a lot of cats (!) and some of the other detail here.Costesseyboy (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 18:00, 18 March 2011 (UTC).

Probably will get to this by the end of the weekend. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 02:10, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

I've added here, but it needs a little work to be better integrated and not just another factoid. I'll add more in some of the subarticles if a place can be found to fit it in. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 01:12, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Cuban nationalization of the Finca

The Cubans started nationalizing US oil and communications business property after July 1960 about the time the Hemingways last saw Cuba, but I have been unable to find out when they formally nationalized private US citizen's real estate. Diplomatic break was in Jan 61 and Bay of Pigs in April 61 and Cuba's formal announcement of a fully socialist government in May, 1961 (implying no real property ownership by foreigners). But Hemingway was well-respected in Cuba, including by Castro (I have some quotes) so it may well be that the Cuban government did not formally move again the Hemingways until EH's death in July 61, and then only against his "estate." Mary Hemingway negociated with the Cuban government for some personal property, which suggests that the issue was "negociable" for the Hemingways, if not (by July, 61) for the US gov. Even so, remember, the US economic embargo hadn't happened yet, and would not happen until early 1962, and the missile crisis not until October of 62, now 15 months after EH's death. The break with Cuba didn't happen all at once. I'd like to know the full story, but have changed the article so it doesn't state that Finca Vigia was expropriated in 1960, which I'm reasonably sure was not true, as that would have been only months after the Hemingways left on personal and friendly terms with Castro.SBHarris 04:49, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

The problem is that now it doesn't match the source. I drove down to the library to read Mellow (I don't own that book) and while it's true Hemingway left for the last time in July 1960, Mellow merely states that property was taken after the Bay of Pigs. I'll check the more recently written Reynolds to see whether he has a more expanded version of that time period. If not, we should stick to the sources, imo. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:54, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, the source must say 1961, not 1960, since the Bay of Pigs was two months before EH's death. The article previously said: "In 1960 the Finca Vigia was expropriated by the Cuban government after the Bay of Pigs Invasion, (two months before Hemingway's death)..." At minimum that must read "1961," source be damned. SBHarris 17:57, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

No, the 1961 part is right - the date was wrong. The diplomatic relations information isn't in the source, but maybe Reynolds has more to say. Will get to it a bit later. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:39, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Reynolds agrees with Mellow. EH & Mary left in July because on July 7th Castro threatened to take the property of Americans and foreign nationals. I'll tweak the section a bit. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 21:33, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Aha! Good. But is Castro talking only industry (this is still early when he's just nationalizing oil refineries because they won't refine Soviet oil), or does Castro really talk about private real estate? If the latter, then it all fits. But isn't the end of July about the normal time for EH to leave Cuba, anyway? Cuba (as Florida had been before) are for snow season. Summer and Fall is his favorite time to be in North America, so it's no wonder that he should go to Idaho after Spain after Cuba. But then being stuck in Idaho for the Winter. Poor EH probably was not helped in the worst of his depression, in the first North American Winter (60-61) he'd had to endure for some time, and some of that was Wisconsin! It might have helped if he could have wintered in Cuba.

BTW, it has come to me (alas I cannot put it in until it occurs to somebody else) that EH probably suffered paranoia as a result of being taken OFF his reserpine sometime in the fall of 1960, which is a pretty good antiparanoic drug (the first known effective drug-- actually herb-- by hundreds of years, at treating paranoia in schizophrenia). So the very thing they did to make EH less depressed (not a bad idea to try-- as reserpine does cause depression, as does alcohol), probably also made him crazy. That happens occasionally also in treating very depressed people who have psychomotor retardation (can't eat, can't get out of bed) with amphetamines (which raise the brain's dopamine, much like electroshock and removing reserpine). What happens sometimes, is they get paranoid or get out of bed only to kill themselves. In retrospect (hindsight is 20-20), when EH started to have severe paranoid delusions, they maybe should have put him back on his old reserpine. Instead, they put him on "Largactil" which is chlorpromazine (Thorazine) the new antipsychotic available in the late 1950's in the US (the ONLY one, I think). Apparently it didn't work very well, or else he didn't take it, or at the end had been taken off it. Sigh. These days EH would be a classic dual diagnosis patient. I think he actually got about as good a psychiatric care as was available in his time, but he had so many problems, that it wasn't enough. SBHarris 22:37, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Was just thinking about reworking that section a bit to show that he was there in the summers at that period. I need to read a bit more first. They threatened taking the homes of Americans and foreign nationals in July 1960, which makes some sort of sense because obviously he wasn't the only American to own property there. The medical stuff is interesting: he apparently was doing fairly well, lost welght, looked good, and then left Cuba and went off to Spain alone and spiraled quickly out-of-control. Would be nice if a doc with an interest in writing and EH were to publish a paper on this. Then we could use it! Anyway, I'll pick at it a bit, read a bit more and pick a bit more. Also, some of this information can be added in fully expanded versions to the Finca Vigia page, and probably also The Dangerous Summer page. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 22:58, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Iceberg theory - Hemingway's phrase or was it invented by someone else?

The article states: "Hemingway referred to his style as the iceberg theory." Is this true? Where exactly did he use this phrase? I've looked up the Carlos Baker ref on pg. 117 and it never attributes this phrase to Hemingway himself. Can someone supply a citation of H. using it? Thanks. ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 14:12, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

He discussed in letters as early as the 1920s and describes in his book Death in the Afternoon, which is supplied in the writing style section. I'll try to find one of the early letters and add, but won't be immediately. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:16, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

I not questioning that he discussed and described the idea which, without doubt, belongs to him. It's the phrase "Iceberg theory". Did he coin it or was it (more likely) a phrase invented by critics (or others) to refer to this writing style? ~ Alcmaeonid (talk) 13:45, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm fairly certain it's his phrase, written about in letters from Paris in the early 1920s. Still trying to get to this. Soon. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:20, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

At the moment have one source, but am sure others exist. In "Hemingway's Poetry and Paris Apprenticeship" Vernal Kale writes that Hemingway scholar Beegel believes Hemingway himself referred to it as the iceberg theory by name as early as 1921. See Kale, Vernal. "Hemingway's Poetry and the Paris Apprenticeship". The Hemingway Review. Spring 2007. Vol. 26. p. 64. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:48, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Recent vandalism

Following a recent XKCD cartoon which stated that following initial links in articles eventually leads to Philosophy, it was discovered that Hemingway didn't do this. So pages were changed until the path lead to Philosophy again 128.231.213.25 (talk) 13:23, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

It goes to Philosophy now because the Iceberg Theory page now has a link to Writing Style that wasn't there before. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.231.213.25 (talk) 13:28, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not quite following this - the iceberg theory article has existed for over a year and I don't think the link has been changed. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:37, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Dressed as a girl as child

It says here the following, which seems worth mentioning: 'It seems that it was his mother Grace's habit to dress him, as a child, in long white frocks and fashion his hair like a little girl's. It was a 19th-century custom to dress infants alike, but she took it to extremes. She referred to him, in his cute lacy dress, as "Dutch dolly". She said she was his Sweetie, or, as he pronounced it, "Fweetee". Once, when Ernest was two, Grace called him a doll once too often. He replied, "I not a Dutch dolly... Bang, I shoot Fweetee". But she also praised him for being good at hunting in the woods and fishing in the stream in boys' clothes. It was too confusing for a sensitive kid. He always hated her, and her controlling ways. He always referred to her as "that bitch". He'd spend the rest of his life in a galloping parody of masculinity. Dutch dolly indeed. He'd show the bitch there was no confusion in his head.' Malick78 (talk) 20:48, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

That article published in advance of the 50th anniversary of his death keeps cropping up. I'd rather use something from one of the biographies instead of the newspaper article, and prefer not to go into such detail, because I don't think it's necessary here. I'll add something about his being dressed as a girl. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 23:48, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Influence and Legacy

I'd just like to add that David Sim included a fictionalised biography of Hemingway in his 27 year long graphic novel series. The 'Form and Void' book fictionalises Hemingway, but contains vast detail. Appreciation of Sim's work is vastly complicated by Sim's use of misogyny in his plot. Jsemmel (talk) 15:46, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

It would be better to write a page about the novel, if it's notable, and then to link in here. Per WP:Trivia we try to keep the influence and legacy section to a reasonable length. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 00:32, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Dubious

Gellhorn left Hemingway. Either an inaccurate or unclear statement that should be changed. Gwytherinn (talk) 14:48, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Can you reference that assertion? I'm removing your tag till you do...Modernist (talk) 14:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Moorehead, Caroline (2003). Gellhorn: A Twentieth Century Life. Henry Holt & Co. ISBN 0805065539. Though to some extent it is already described in the last paragraph in the section "Spanish Civil War and World War II". It is also mentioned in this article: "Remembering Martha Gellhorn". The Atlantic. Retrieved 27 June 2011. Gwytherinn (talk) 15:21, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Given that he was no longer living with her, and involved with another woman, I think it's a question of semantics about who left whom. She did walk out of a hospital room where he was being treated for a headwound. I have read all of the Hemingway biographies, and can tell you the sequence of events, but truly it's much too much for this page, and honestly I'm not happy with the current fix. Moreover, the link you provided above is incorrect: in fact Hadley was the first of his wives to leave. This is amply supported by Hemingway biographies. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 15:33, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Wilj003, 2 July 2011

Misspelling: "contrapuntal" is misspelled as "contrapunCtal", in the "early life" section description of his views on his childhood cello lessons.

wilj003 (talk) 16:40, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

done...Modernist (talk) 16:53, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

_{Marking as answered Jnorton7558 (talk) 19:16, 2 July 2011 (UTC)}

On being followed

An interesting article here reveals some interesting notions about the circumstances before the suicide. Perhaps he wasn't all paranoid about being followed?

Anyway, the article mentions a FOIA request, so there should be more around, if anyone can research this claim in more detail. 85.179.0.60 (talk) 07:23, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

It's in the article in a footnote, but I might pull the footnote out into the text while this stuff is floating around. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 10:55, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Seems to me Hemingway's perception, the Cuba connection and J. Edgar Hoover's harassment is newsworthy and of interest...Modernist (talk) 12:45, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

It can be reworded a little using the biographies because most of what's in Hotchner's op-ed is in the biographies. The problem is that EH really was quite sick at that point - he was in the Mayo very soon after. So separating the wheat from the chaff is hard. Probably the best thing to do is to re-read Meyers - he mentions FBI letters, pull out the note into the text, and then add what Hotchner has to say but attribute directly to him. Won't get to it until a bit later. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 12:54, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Good plan, given the context - late 1950s, early 1960s, its no wonder no one believed him...Modernist (talk) 13:03, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Also given that he lived in Cuba, helped Ezra get out of the hospital, and on and on. Most of it was in the note which I've pulled out. Somewhere in history is the story of being watched in Ketchum while eating at a restaurant. I'll have to trawl through and will pull it out, but I think per WP:WEIGHT, that's probably enough. Btw - don't know whether you clicked into the FBI link just added to the ELs - I wouldn't if I were you. It made my browser crash. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 14:07, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I was reading the FBI files, no problem. Makes you wonder about Hoover and Hoover's paranoia, it's a great link...Modernist (talk) 14:20, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

That's good, must be my computer. I've been through the history as far as when I started the expansion and can't find the "They're watching me anecote" but I remembering writing it & then thinking it was too specific, so it could be anywhere. I'll have to go to notes and the books. In a little while. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 16:31, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

There's no doubt that the FBI kept tabs on EH sometimes in his life, especially while jaunting between revolutionary Spain, and (later) to post-revolutionary Cuba, but the comment in the restaurant in Ketchum is I think on the day of his return to town from the Mayo on the day before his suicide, or perhaps the previous evening. Hemingway was by this tima completely paranoid, worried that he'll be jailed for paying his taxes late (though he had always scrupulous about this, as he always was about money). Meyers or somebody makes a big deal about the FBI following EH to the Mayo, but it's just as likely that they knew he was there because EH got his doctors to write them a letter informing him that he was (god knows why). And his docs did so, just to calm him down. So the idea that some of EH's paranoia in the US in 1960 is even partly justified on THAT basis, I think has not been proven. SBHarris 18:00, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, your perspective is always helpful. I'll look at what Reynolds wrote - his biography is more recent - and I can't remember that section off the top of my head. Both Mellow and Meyers recount the "they're in bank watching me" in the restaurant conversation and to an extent I think these conversations become derivative at some point. This needs to be presented in a balanced way, and with good sources. The FBI files themselves are primary sources, so can't be used. Truthkeeper88 (talk) 18:14, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

What happened to Hemingway's collection of art?

can someone tell me what became of Hemingway's art collection? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.250.136.2 (talk) 11:58, 11 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Ernest Hemingway in Milan 1918 retouched 3.jpg to appear as POTD soon

Hello! This is a note to let the editors of this article know that File:Ernest Hemingway in Milan 1918 retouched 3.jpg will be appearing as picture of the day on July 21, 2011. You can view and edit the POTD blurb at Template:POTD/2011-07-21. If this article needs any attention or maintenance, it would be preferable if that could be done before its appearance on the Main Page so Wikipedia doesn't look bad. :) Thanks! howcheng {chat} 00:28, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Picture of the day

American author Ernest Hemingway (1899–1961) in 1918, dressed in the uniform of an ambulance driver for the International Red Cross during World War I, where he was stationed on the Italian front. On July 8 he was seriously wounded by mortar fire. Despite his wounds, Hemingway carried an Italian soldier to safety, for which he received the Italian Silver Medal of Bravery. He sustained shrapnel wounds to both legs, underwent an operation at a distribution center, spent five days at a field hospital, and was transferred to the Red Cross hospital in Milan for a six-month period of recuperation.Photo: Ermeni Studios; Restoration: Beao

Edit request from Kadhgar, 21 July 2011

Spelling of Lanham vs. Lanaham
Hello, the name "Lanham" is falsely spelled as "Lanaham" several times in this article (one correct spelling). Apart from the linked Wikipedia article the spelling is also confirmed at . Kadhgar (talk) 16:03, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Kadhgar (talk) 16:03, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

use of pronoun

as did his life of adventure and his public image is the second his needed?