Talk:Doctor Who

Title card image needs updating

I just noticed the infobox still has the old version of the logo. Series 6 introduced a new version, with refinements to the font and coloring, plus the addition of the BBC logo. Someone should update the image since "Current Doctor Who main title card" is no longer an accurate caption. With the DVD of Series 6 due out any day this should be easy to do. 68.146.71.145 (talk) 02:40, 15 July 2011 (UTC)

Which villains/monsters are 'iconic'?

Wikipedia can not, as a general rule, use itself to support certain information. This said, our own article on cultural icons states that some writers believe the word 'iconic' is overused. Considering how things have happened on this article lately, I'd agree.

When I looked at this article this morning, we had a list of four antagonists that are reasonably established as the most important in the series. Underneath, we had a further list of about seven more monsters (most of which are New Series), and a claim that these were also iconic. I have no doubt that Doctor Who is an iconic series, and despite having an affection for many of the monsters listed I'd hardly suggest they all warrant being included on the article. This is an article about 'Doctor Who' the TV Series and looking at it's history, elements of the show, and it's worldwide reception and influence. We already link out to two lists of Doctor Who Villains and Monsters, so the section on adversaries should be kept brief or cover elements that themselves are important to the series.

The villains listed were the Daleks, Cybermen, Master, Davros, Sontarans, Silurians, Judoon, Ood, Weeping Angels, Autons, Slitheen, Silence, Cybermats and Cassandra (removed). Even Batman, which has been around for nearly 80 years and has been cited with the greatest rogues gallery in comics doesn't have this many iconic enemies, let alone so many created in the last 7 years. (off the top of my head, the ones that are seen as nearly undeniably iconic are the four main 1966 series villains and Two-Face. That's five to this claim of almost 14). We as editors can not deny what sources state, but this list didn't have any sources suggesting that any were 'iconic'. Besides, the bias for recentism is quite strong (8 of these villains appears in the classic series and, outside of the 'big four', that means there were five/six New Series villains to four Classic Series. Seeing as the classic series lasted for 26 years as opposed to the New Series' 7, I would think the skew would be towards, if anything, five Classic antagonists and one or two New Series ones.)

The text also states that 'aside from infrequent appearances by the Ice Warriors (four appearances), the Yeti (two appearances), the Rani (two appearances, a third of disputed canonical merit), the Meddling Monk (two appearances), Omega (two appearances), the Black Guardian (two appearances, arguably four) and Sil (two appearances), some adversaries have become particularly iconic'. The Daleks, Cybermen and Master have, in total, almost 50 amassed story appearances (Davros' appearances are confined to Dalek ones and can't be counted separate). (The Daleks have 22, the Master 22, and the Cybermen 14 'whole' stories, disregarding minor appearances). As such, they are the most prolific recurring adversaries in the series and perhaps notable in this respect.

The monsters that were listed as 'Others' included the Sontarans (7 appearances), Silurians (5 appearances), Judoon (2 appearances), Ood (4 appearances), Weeping Angels (2 appearances), Autons (4 appearances), Slitheen (2 appearances), Silence (1 appearance so far), and Cybermats (3 in the TV series). The only two monsters that appear more frequently than any of the 'infrequent' monsters are the Sontarans and Silurians. Each of the rest have either equal to or less appearances than the Ice Warriors.

Considering that 'iconic' is such a vague word due to overuse, but that the Daleks are seen as the most iconic villains in the series, this would suggest some things.

1 - that the most iconic monsters are from the Classic Series and had about 15 appearances in the classic run. (The Master had 19, and the Cybermen 10. They are still among the most prolific and in total, these three villains had 45 appearances in the classic run).

2 - the most iconic monsters are instantly recognisable and discussed frequently in the media. (of these, the Daleks are perhaps the only qualifiers - other characters like the Silence and Cybermen recieved publicised hype before their appearances in the New Series)

3 - there is no 'most iconic monster', and merely 'most appeared villains'. Of these, the Daleks, Cybermen and Master qualify as well as Davros, the Silurians and Sontarans (arguably).

4 - Word of God speaks. The BBC classic page has links to lists of the appearances for the Daleks, Cybermen, Master, Davros and Sontarans. This might suggest they are the most notable villains of the classic run.

I think, though, that if we are to list a monster or villain as 'iconic' we must first have a notable source stating that they are such, and preferably more than one to lend any claims that someone in iconic credibility. I'm sorry that this is such a long piece, but the entire 'Other' list of 'iconic monsters' seemed like OR and really strange. I love them, but are the Ood really considered iconic? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Comic master (talk • contribs) 02:02, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Given that we have several pages devoted to the fiction of Doctor Who, there is no need to list out every recurring baddie. Three clearly make sense, Daleks, Cybermen, and the Master (All having appearences in the double digits). I would even take out Davros (mentioning him among the Daleks). Any other recurring villain shouldn't be mentioned on this page. --MASEM (t) 03:42, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

I agree on Davros (he's really very tied to the Daleks isn't he?), and I'm sorry my earlier post got really long. Comics (talk) 04:00, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

To those that keep adding this: realize this page is 134k long without these details - we're way oversize and need to move things to appropriate subpages. And we aren't losing any detail since there are several subpages about these individual species/villains, as well as the general catch-all list for DW monsters. --MASEM (t) 20:06, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Considering rationale (4) above, I might leave off the Sontarans, so the current summary of three primary villains (with Davros mentioned inline) seems like a good solution. aprock (talk) 20:48, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps even the Cybermen. are they so well-known that they're recognisable as such out of context? I mean, dalek and tardis are part of the language now, can we say that for anything else? that's what i take iconic to mean. For example, I would regard Doctor Watson as an iconic character because people know who he is without having watched or read a single Sherlock Holmes story. Totnesmartin (talk) 21:55, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Even if they aren't iconic outside of the show, they are one of the top three appearing villains and survived the transition from old to new series in spades. There is no other monster or villain that is close to the number of appearances as these three, so it sets a nice inclusion "barrier". (If it were the case that the Cybermen only had 10 appearances, and the next, say, Sontarians, had 8, it would be hard to argue why not include the latter.) --MASEM (t) 22:09, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Using google only as a barometer, Cybermen gets 3x as many pages as Sontarans. I suspect that's indicative of the relative cultural gap between the two. More concretely, if push came to shove I would support mirroring the BBC list before removing Cybermen. aprock (talk) 04:51, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Just for purposes of sources, I guess, the BBC homepage for the classic series: http://www.bbc.co.uk/doctorwho/classic/ which has links to the episodes of each Classic Doctor's era as well as episodes that featured the Daleks, Cybermen, Master, Davros or Sontarans. Comics (talk) 05:35, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Could we, per WP:PRIMARY, find a source that isn't the station that makes the series (and wants to push its product)? Totnesmartin (talk) 09:08, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to suggest a slight different approach, if not exactly objective. Say 'Dalek', 'Davros' or 'Cyberman' to just about anyone who grow up in the UK (and, I sure, in plenty of other places) and you *know* you are going to conjure up an image in their mind with no further prompting. The same is true of the 'Master' - except that the image is going to be more vague: a shadowy, slightly gothic, villainous intellectual (sort of Dracula meets Moriati). They have the same kind of iconic stature as, in a different context, say the Borg or Klingons. Sontarans don't even come close - and they are probably the next most 'iconic' (with the possible exception of the more recent 'Ood' since they are visually very distinctive). The Sontarans are certainly not as iconic as any of the following: the TARDIS, the theme tune, Galifray, the Doctor's regeneration.

Cybermats

Ok the Cybermats have beeen listed as the rivived creatures/monsters/aliens for some time now, and recintly i've noticed it's dissappering and reappering again and again. i think we should just leave it alone. what r some other thoughts — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.109.139.104 (talk) 14:36, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

They haven't appeared in the revived series. So don't put them there.Ratemonth (talk) 16:12, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Acutually they are appearing in the second to last episode of series 6, I googled it and it's true - Mr. Brad Sorce: Google, Youtube, and TARDIS index files Wiki links to sources - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMTCm7CeDc4 http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Series_6_(Doctor_Who) 6 August 2011

Other wiki sites and Youtube are not reliable sources. Find a real source.Ratemonth (talk) 18:44, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok - http://www.thehiveforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1191 , http://www.thedoctorwhosite.co.uk/cybermen/cybermen-designs/cybermats/, http://www.denofgeek.com/television/803589/doctor_who_series_6_which_monster_might_be_returning.html, http://doctorwhospoilers.com/2011/3594, http://geeksofdoom.com/2011/03/10/patrick-troughton-era-creature-returns-in-doctor-who-series-6/ They were also in the Doctor Who: The Adventure Games - Mr. Brad 6 August 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.109.139.104 (talk) 18:56, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Thats enough prof for me - the guy who made this talk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.109.139.104 (talk) 18:58, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The second to last episode of series 6 hasn't aired yet. Once it has, I for one won't oppose including the cybermats (if they're really in that episode, that is). For now this seems to be speculation - informed speculation perhaps, but out of Wikipedia's scope. --Six words (talk) 19:00, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

You need a reliable source. The sources you cite are all fan/rumor sites getting information from one another. How can we trust the original YouTube video to be reliable when the poster can't get James Cordon's or his character's name right? (He refers to him as Tony something -- the character is Craig Owens). Also, Mr. Brad, please use four tildes to sign your posts. There's a link below this window you can click to make it easy. Drmargi (talk) 19:46, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

I say it's all well and good to put the Cybermats up, but let's please consider this. Are the Cybermats really villains in their own right, or is this equatable to RTD deciding on resurrecting the Dalek Supreme or Moffat feeling like bringing back the Special Weapon's Dalek next year? Not to mention that some things end up on the cutting room floor; maybe they were filmed, but they could just as easily be cut if it's decided it adds little to the episode and they're running overtime. Comics (talk) 12:35, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Also; it'll be interesting if it turns out they're similar creatures to the Cybermats but a different creature; see TCE vs Laser Screwdriver for the Master. Comics (talk) 12:37, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

What was the name of that episode and isn't it worthy to be mentioned?

Could anyone please help? I have seen an episode of Doctor Who recently about ex-gay therapy where the main hero was a gay denying it and so on. What is the name of that episode? Where can I find it? And, isn't it a good thing to mention in the description, too? They have shown, from medical perspective, how dangerous that therapy is. That will definitely be also of interest to the LGBT portal. Thank you. Այնշախոր (talk) 19:13, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

Could you please be more specific? For example, which Doctor was in it? The 9th and 10 Doctor's companion Jack Harkness is openly bisexual for example. Regards SoWhy 19:19, 7 August 2011 (UTC)

I honestly can't recall any episodes about ex-gay therapy. Comics (talk) 00:20, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

No such episode in Doctor Who or any of the spin-offs. I can't think of any SF TV show with an episode like that. Sorry. --Ebyabe (talk) 00:32, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Zygons, Sil and Thals

I thinks the Zygons should be added the the infrequent appearances section, they have been in double the serials then Sil (Who I think should be deleted), plus has a few novels are about them. Also maybe Thals could be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.109.139.104 (talk) 15:24, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

The Zygons have only had one main appearance on television Doctor Who Etron81 (talk) 17:27, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

Sil's appeared in two serials, the Zygons in one. 'Infrequent' means 'Not occurring often; rare'. Sil appeared in two serials, he didn't appear often. The Zygon's appeared in one serial, they appeared once. Perhaps they've appeared in more novels than Sil: however, this article is predominately about the TV series. The average person is more likely to have seen the TV series than read the books at any rate. The Thal's aren't even adversaries, so I don't know if you're smoking something there. Comics (talk) 21:12, 18 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't think we need any of them, I agree 100% with not putting Zygons. We should delete Sil because if we keep Sil we end up adding to many others like Cassandra, Mara, and Borusa. the only thing with the Thals is they are more nuetral and we have some species listed who are not all evil to (Silurian, Ood, and Sontarans) and the Thals we evil in the begining. But I don't think any should be added/kept, but I will leave it how it is. The Thals are pretty recurring in the old sereis ,too

As it is, the Silurians have been adversaries in 4/5 of their appearances, the Ood in 2/4, and the Sontarans in 5/6. The Thals have been adversaries, to the best of my knowledge, in 0/3 appearances. They were allies in The Daleks, allies in Planet of the Daleks, and helped the Doctor to stop the Daleks in Genesis of the Daleks. If we want to have some kind of buffer, maybe a certain amount of replies from Google search could help? Eg; 'ice warriors doctor who' brings up 17 million pages, but 'thals doctor who' brings up just short of 1 million. 'sil doctor who' brings up 4 million, however. Comics (talk) 21:15, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

Also, 'meddling monk doctor who' brings up 145K. Not saying Google is the be all and end all, but if you want to establish notability it can be handy. Comics (talk) 21:17, 20 August 2011 (UTC)

I still think all 3 are unnessecery and should be "Deleted" as the Cybermen say, but I leaving it.

Addition to "revelations about the Doctor" section

For further proof that the Doctor used to be a father, "A Good Man Goes to War" makes a point of the Gallifreyan cradle. Or are we waiting for the current season to be over to mention this?

Spoilers..