Talk:Muammar Gaddafi

Stupid propaganda even in wikipedia

Why don't you put a pic of people support Gaddafi on the streets and not just two people and one with a transparent Gaddafi is a murderer. Keep lieing and good, lock such threads important for the USA lies!109.121.14.221 (talk) 09:30, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Well IP, choose any of the thousands of photos of pro-Gaddafi supporters on the web out and post it yourself. Oh, having trouble finding some? Maybe because - they don't exist? Dinkytown talk 16:59, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Ah.. Yes. Most of the sources lead to the U.S Government website, a link in the CIA biography, and supposed photographs of Gadaffi killing his own people with jet planes, yet the people were charred alive by what seems to be an explosion. Wikipedia doesn't know any better, afterall; apparently Gadaffi was a terrorist bent on world destruction and murder, hogged all his money and allowed the country to be slaves, and never did anything good for anybody and the U.S is saving the day, like they so often do. Of course; this war wouldn't have anything to do with Gadaffi wanting to change the currency from U.S Dollars to his own, so he could dictate prices of resources. --Suffery (talk) 16:21, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Suffery - wht are you whining about? Get your own sources and put it up there, instead of complaining about wiki... Dinkytown talk 16:59, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

I did. They were removed when this Libya war began. The entire page has transformed. I'm not whining about anything you Amerikan blip, check the History. The page was once neautral and unbiased, it showed some of Gaffi's achievements, images of people cheering his name and him kissing an infant on the forhead. Now? Two non-local rebel's holding English signs telling Gadaffi to get out, Gadaffi supposedly murdering millions of people, a site that lists Gadaffi as the "Third anti-christ", the U.S Is invading to "free the people", Gadaffi murders children, Gadaffi cowardly runs away, Gadaffi is arming terrorists to destroy Amerika, Gadaffi vows on world destruction, Gadaffi has nuclear weapons! Sources have been replaced with the Whitehouse's sources or /gov sources, regardless of proof, evidence, photo's, testimonies that alot of people liked Gadaffi. I suppose if the Whitehouse publishes a contradictory wall of text without any proof, valid names (because you know, they don't want the agents identity disclosed, sorta like the Allen incident), photo's or word from any Libya official, person or anything. I have supplied proper sources that meet the WIKI requirements, and they were replaced with this Government propaganda. Amazing- He runs a regime for forty years, and it's only when Gadaffi wants to change his currency that the U.S Decide to "Free the people". --Suffery (talk) 05:12, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

This was an superbly written redraft of the first paragraph. I'm always astounded how the most murderous thug's Wikipedia entries make them sound like they are all Mother Theresas. Only in some alternate universe is Gaddafi a Politician and a Democratic leader. My kudos to the author. 50.132.0.75 (talk) 12:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Murderous thug? Do you have any concept of encyclopedia? This is not a newspaper or some other propaganda piece. EVEN IF HE IS UNANIMOUSLY regarded as a "murderous thug" you still have to follow certain minimum standards that belong to an encyclopedia. The whole thing looks like a copypaste of a tabloid piece or a government press conference transcript.

Here is one totally blatant sentence that doesn't belong ANYWHERE in ANY Wikipedia page: "More discreetly, he directed the country's revenues to sponsor terror and other political activities around the world. The United Nations called Libya under Gaddafi a pariah state. In the 1980s Gaddafi's support for terrorist organizations led countries around the world to establish sanctions against Gaddafi." Sponsor terror? Is this even proper English? I don't think an english teacher would consider that utter crap propaganda phrase as a proper English term for what it is meant to convey. Such utter crap doesn't belong anywhere in any encyclopedia. Anyway lots of such blatant sentences are crammed into this "article". It's not even an article, it's just a diatribe. And the shameless Wikipedia (senior) editors who did this or allowed this need to resign or be fired for this garbage. Loginnigol (talk) 09:22, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

The Gaddafi wiki-page makes Adolf Hitler look like a saint.. Literally; take a look. Compare the two. I never thought I'd see such a biased wiki-page.. Let alone one that looks worse than Hitlers.. I'm not taking sides between anything; I just believe information should be information, fair is fair. We shouldn't exaggerate, stretch the truth, or completely make-up false stories just because the Whitehouse makes a threat or releases some new report. Where is the evidence? Where is the proof? Why are we not allowed to use Libyan sources?--Suffery (talk) 22:04, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree, this article is extremely biased - I'd guess at least 50% of the article is criticism is some way or form rather than actual facts. Some of the sources are, of course, unreliable and absurd. This article needs clean-up from the ground up at this point. Toa Nidhiki05 23:14, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

Indeed inconvenient facts, such as Qaddafi's role in the fight against apartheid, are carefully omitted. I provide some relevant statements by Nelson Mandela in my post below. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.54.82.252 (talk) 05:34, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Should he still be regarded as Libya's leader?

Yes, he is the Libya's leader [1]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.79.54.139 (talk) 11:39, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

He's lost control of most of the country and it's clear he has already lost the civil war since the US, the UK, France, Canada and all the other countries in the NATO alliance are not backing down. (92.7.27.57 (talk) 22:23, 12 June 2011 (UTC))

Do you have a source indicating this? Seems like a lot of conjecture to me. Also strangely POV given that this was *supposed* to just be a no-fly zone, not a coup. -- Avanu (talk) 22:38, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

He's lost control of all of the East and more of his soldiers, officers and politicians are deserting him. As soon as his money inside the country runs out his African mercenaries will leave. (92.7.27.57 (talk) 22:51, 12 June 2011 (UTC))

In either case, it's conjecture, pro or against. The purpose of our contributions is not to lend our own analysis, but to provide credible sources. Whether we think he's the leader or not is irrelevant, what matters is what reputable sources indicate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.65.34.104 (talk) 20:47, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Exactly. -- Avanu (talk) 21:44, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

He's only in control of Tripoli now. Now France and Qatar have admitted arming the rebels, who have cut off his oil pipeline, it can only be a matter of time before his mercenaries desert him. (92.10.142.233 (talk) 17:56, 29 June 2011 (UTC))

Being in control isn't necessarily the definition of a nation's leader. Many times, you have seen a leader living even outside a nation but still holding a title. As we have said before, Wikipedia uses "reliable sources", not just whatever we might like to say. -- Avanu (talk) 02:36, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Which country is Wikipedia serving? May be a handful of countries, albeit powerful, derecognized him, but did the African Union and the UNO derecognize him? Till the time it is done, he will be the head of state, different thing that without a state, and it'll be just another front of propaganda to say he is a revolutionary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.99.71.224 (talk) 09:04, 21 August 2011 (UTC)

He is the leader of the revolution, so I believe he will be the leader of the revolution while he lives, unless he states he resigns as the leader. He is not president or PM, which are offices that someone can succeed. There are monarchs or presidents who continue being in their offices in exile so I don't think we should make an exception here.--Andres arg (talk) 02:40, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

How do we define the end to his rule?

• It is when he is captured?
• It is when it is found out that he has left the country?
• Was it when Tripoli was under rebel majority rule?

I think it is best to wait for the definitive end until we say his rule has ended, regardless of opinion or views about the man just for the sake of clarity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.5.107.76 (talk) 13:49, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I would say his rule is over when he is either captured, killed or stands down. As it is, he is still leads Libya.--Welshsocialist (talk) 14:01, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

How about not when you or I say, but when a preponderance of our Reliable Sources say? Keep in mind, "Exceptional claims require exceptional sources". To change the status of a guy who has been in power for 40 years needs very good sourcing, and it is based on a preponderance of truly reliable sources, not biased news stories, not opinion pieces, etc. -- Avanu (talk) 14:05, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Well, obviously it would be a reiable source saying that he has lost power. I wasn't claiming to be some kind of authourity. I also editted the topic to remove the infobox claiming that he has lost power. Maybe I didn't word my response right, but I was only replying the the question asked, and what the reiable source would probably be saying about his ousting, rather than claiming to be an authority (I am not) or anything else.--Welshsocialist (talk) 14:13, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Gaddafi hasn't been in power since the revolution began in February. (92.7.3.54 (talk) 17:13, 22 August 2011 (UTC))

Hehe, being in-power don't need to be in-full. Again, he still is (even a little), until he resigns, gets captured or killed, ...etc. He's just loosing diplomatic recognition (even the Arab League just accepted the NTC), and more and more territory. ~ AdvertAdam ^talk 17:23, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

He's not in power in any way at all now. The NTC is. (92.7.3.54 (talk) 18:19, 22 August 2011 (UTC))

Thankfully, Mr. IP, you are not a reliable source. -- Avanu (talk) 20:08, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

President Obamba implies he's still in power with the comment "The Gaddafi regime is coming to an end."^[2] I interpret that as at this instant the Gaddafi regime still exists. The regime is clearly crumbling fast but the fat lady has not sung yet. I spotted an announcement from either the rebels or ICC that then would consider the regime to be over when Gaddafi is captured. Unfortunately, I can't find that article now. --Marc Kupper|talk 20:32, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

Gaddafi's regime now only extends to his compound in Tripoli. (92.10.132.246 (talk) 15:16, 23 August 2011 (UTC))

Mr. IP, could you refrain from making uninformed asides in the conversation? We don't define the length and breadth of Gaddafi's rule by your words alone, but by a preponderance of Reliable Sources. Its a tad annoying whenever breaking news happens that we get armchair editors who think opinion alone is sufficient for introducing profound changes into articles. -- Avanu (talk) 16:03, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

92.10.132.246, an article today reports on attacks on "government positions" (note the plural) by Predator drones.^[3] The article does not say where in Libya those positions are but it appears Gadhafi has more that one position that merits attention. That article starts out with "As the rebels in Libya push closer to ending the regime of embattled Col. Moammar Gadhafi..." That seems to accurately sum up the state of things. --Marc Kupper|talk 17:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

His evil regime is already over, he's lost the heavily fortified compound in Tripoli now. (92.10.132.246 (talk) 20:12, 23 August 2011 (UTC))

Mr IP, you seem to be a lovely asset for WikiNews :p (but I'm sure they're faster than you), but this is only an encyclopedia. Even when the NTC officially declares victory, we still need to consider it a claim (not a fact). Cheers... ~ AdvertAdam ^talk 20:33, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

BBC Newsnight is reporting that their is fighting still going on between Gaddafi Loyalists and Rebels in some parts of Tripoli. Also some towns and reas of Libya have not yet been taken over by the rebels. It still a bit too early to delcare the end of Gaddafi's rule. --Welshsocialist (talk) 21:38, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

List of heads of state of Libya tells that Khaddafi and his head of state quit their positions on 22 August 2011. That's not right, is it? As far as I've understood, those two guys just lost most of their remaining power but not their formal titles. (Stefan2 (talk) 23:08, 23 August 2011 (UTC))

Gaddafi lost his status as head of state long ago. The NTC lead Libya now. (92.10.130.158 (talk) 13:01, 24 August 2011 (UTC))

Note that leading a country is different from holding the status as head of state. A good example is Queen Elizabeth II who holds the status as head of state over a lot of countries without actually leading any of them. Furthermore, I read in a Swedish newspaper recently that he still seems to retain power over some scarce cities in Libya (e.g. his city of birth) as well as certain tunnels under his residence in Tripoli, so it seems that he hasn't even lost all his executive powers (although most has been lost). (Stefan2 (talk) 13:34, 24 August 2011 (UTC))

The NTC is immediately setting up headquarters in the capital city. Gaddafi's rule is over and now he is just a fugitive. (92.10.130.158 (talk) 13:39, 24 August 2011 (UTC))

Not sure why you keep commenting when each time all you do is make a super-biased statement. The goal here is to write an encyclopedic neutral-point-of-view article, not an opinion piece. -- Avanu (talk) 13:49, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure why it matters who's in control of the capital city. The NTC regime wasn't in control of Tripoli until a few days ago, but at that time some countries still recognised that regime as the legitimate rulers of Libya (I think). Now things have changed, with the NTC regime being in charge of Tripoli and the Khaddafi regime not being in charge of Tripoli, but why would that affect whether someone is "in office" or not? The Republic of China has not been in control of its constitutional capital since 1949, but is still recognised as a country by 23 other countries. (Stefan2 (talk) 13:58, 24 August 2011 (UTC))

Many newspapers and other sources are now referring to Gaddafi as "Libya's former leader", and his "ousted regime". (92.10.130.158 (talk) 21:36, 24 August 2011 (UTC))

And as usual, you bring nothing but your opinion to support this statement. Please either help by researching and providing reliable sources, or just lay off the 'armchair editing'. Thanks. -- Avanu (talk) 23:25, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The BBC for a start. (92.7.0.36 (talk) 10:06, 25 August 2011 (UTC))

He is actualy still in control the cities of Bani Walid, Sirte and Ghadames and the whole of Fezzan governorate, which is more than a third of Libya in itself. EkoGraf (talk) 18:19, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Neutrality ?

The lack of neutrality in the article is apparent from the very beggining. Basically all that is says is "Gaddafi is a nasty dictator who likes oppressing his people". No word on his contributions to pan-Arabism or pan-Africanism or the fact that Libya developed relatively well compared to most Third World countries. I actually stopped reading it seriously after the sentence "Six days after the U.S.A. captured Saddam Hussein, the brutal dictator of Iraq". Is Wikipedia going to be an encyclopedia, or a cheap advertisement tool for certain political views ? - ☣Tourbillon ^A ? 19:50, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Rather than making generic complaints about the article, which are impossible to address, the best way to seek improvement in a wiki article is: 1) suggest specific changes, backed by reputable/verifiable sources. We are not here to state our opinion, we can only repeat what verifiable/reputable sources say. 2) Assume Good Faith. Coming in making wild accusations and speaking in conspiracy theory-esque terms will not help build consensus for changes you like to see. Angry rhetoric is not persuasive. Reasoned arguments are.204.65.34.167 (talk) 13:53, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

I should be shocked, but how can I be in the current state of TRUTH. The line 'Gaddafi started several wars'. I came here looking for facts. If he started several wars, could you please say what and quote sources, or would that be following your own guidelines? 188.220.186.57 (talk) 12:08, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Objectivity

This 'biography' is a disgrace, in the last few months it has been edited to accommodate an almost Orwellian falsification of history, in compliance with unproven claims made by NATO, the rebels and Western (and Arab) media sources. The article lacks any trace of objectivity. Not only does it fail to take into account conflicting reports of events during the Libyan Civil war, The Lockerbie Bombing or the German 'Disco Bombing', but it makes branded claims like 'Gaddafi proceeded to eliminate any opposition and severely restricted lives of ordinary Libyans', as if it were fact, and blatantly rejects the popular support which several UN investigations concluded Gaddafi enjoyed in the years proceeding the current conflict, not only in Libya, but in much of sub-Saharan Africa (as a result of his recorded, panafricanist ideologies and policies).

The demonization Muammar Gaddafi has been subjected to in this 'biographic' article is an stain to the credibility of Wikipedia, as a reliable source of historical documentation. And so I plead that the article should be revised, as to suit the reality of the current situation and his life. Otherwise the likes of Wikipedia will fall victim to the judgment of history. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.7.160.44 (talk) 05:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

rather than making generic complaints about the article, which are impossible to address, the best way to seek improvement in a wiki article is: 1) suggest specific changes, backed by reputable/verifiable sources. We are not here to state our opinion, we can only repeat what verifiable/reputable sources say. 2) Assume Good Faith. Coming in making wild accusations and speaking in conspiracy theory-esque terms will not help build consensus for changes you like to see. Angry rhetoric is not persuasive. Reasoned arguments are.204.65.34.167 (talk) 13:43, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, complaints may be hard to address, but certainly a non-NPOV tag would be a good start. - ☣Tourbillon ^A ? 13:54, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The tag has the word disputed linked to Wikipedia:NPOV_dispute. Please click and read. Quote: Drive-by tagging is strongly discouraged. The editor who adds the tag must address the issues on the talk page, pointing to specific issues that are actionable within the content policies, namely Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:No original research and Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Simply being of the opinion that a page is not neutral is not sufficient to justify the addition of the tag. Tags should be added as a last resort.

So let's see if there are any concrete issues to work on:

• The WP:LEAD includes 'Gaddafi proceeded to eliminate any opposition and severely restricted lives of ordinary Libyans'. Is this a reasonable summary of that part of the main content? and is that main content supported by WP:RS's?
  • My opinion is yes (Elimination of dissent section) and yes (the refs are in the section, not the lead), except that the word "any" could be considered too strong. Strictly speaking, it's reasonable to say that he eliminated almost any opposition that he could find. Subtle forms of opposition probably occurred. We could replace the present phrase in the lead by something like "proceeded to eliminate political opponents through public executions, televised executions and censorship". Another improvement would be to add repeat refs (<ref name="keyofreference" />) for a few of the main refs used in the main content. These changes may not make the complainer happy, but they would improve this article.
• "... blatantly rejects the popular support which several UN investigations concluded Gaddafi enjoyed in the years proceeding the current conflict, not only in Libya, but in much of sub-Saharan Africa (as a result of his recorded, panafricanist ideologies and policies)" Does the article have any non-RS'd rejections of the claim that Gaddafi had some level of popular support in Libya and sub-Saharan Africa? Can we add claims that Gaddafi had some level of popular support in Libya and sub-Saharan Africa?
  • For the first question, i don't see where the blatant (presumably unsourced) rejections are in the article. These unsourced rejections cannot be worked on if we do not know where they are. The article is big - i may have missed these rejections.
  • For the second question, the answer is obviously yes: please add these claims (credible IMHO) using inlined references - look around for help and ask for help if you don't know how. Find a natural place in the flow of the article where this information should go. If, and it's a big if, other editors delete and refuse to accept the information about Gaddafi's popular support, then come back here to the talk page (probably best a new section) and try to sort it out. If consensus fails, then that will be an WP:NPOV dispute and the tag can be restored. But first try reasoned discussion. i'll quote again: Tags should be added as a last resort.

Since there is no NPOV dispute at the moment, i will remove the tag. Boud (talk) 19:50, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

The leading section is not neutral. It accents only on Gaddafi's human rights abuses and says nothing about his panarabist and panafricanist policies. - ☣Tourbillon ^A ? 06:54, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that you are right. However, AFAIK, probably nobody is blocking an improvement (for the moment) - it just happens to be a lot of work. My suggestion:

1. add an RS'd section describing how Gaddafi had some level of popular support in Libya and sub-Saharan Africa from panarabist and later panafricanist policies - some could be integrated with existing sections
2. ignore the existing lead and draft a totally new lead that briefly summarises the key points of the sectional structure as it presently exists, including a small number of repeat references so that the reader could, in principle, see that the point is justified even without going into the main body of the article
3. look at the existing lead and integrate the things that are exceptions to the "summarise" guideline (e.g. alternative spellings of name, birthdate normally go in the lead but are not usually needed in the main content) into your draft
4. look at what remains of the existing lead (parts that you have not integrated into your new version nor the article), and if it says anything RS'd that is not present in the main content, then integrate that into the main content so that it is not "lost"
5. look again at WP:LEAD for hints
6. look at the revision history since you started this whole process to see if something significant was added that you missed
7. propose the new lead here on the talk page (or on a subpage, but subpage policy is quite restrictive on en.wikipedia, check a guideline first)
8. replace the old lead after there's rough consensus

A lot of work, but IMHO this is the only obvious way to improve the lead in a way that will remain more or less stable. Boud (talk) 20:04, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I am currently working to bring the Bulgarian version of the article to Featured status, and I will offer a new lede once I am finished with my work there. For now I've managed to incorporate much sourced information on Gaddafi's support for various rebel and extremist organisations around the world, as well as a personal statement of his on his alleged support for terrorist activities. - ☣Tourbillon ^A ? 18:48, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Contradictions

The articles List of heads of state of Libya, Muammar Gaddafi and Mohamed Abu Al-Quasim al-Zwai contradict each other. See Talk:List of heads of state of Libya#Contradictions. (Stefan2 (talk) 13:50, 24 August 2011 (UTC))

Jalil is Libya's leader and head of state. (92.10.130.158 (talk) 14:32, 24 August 2011 (UTC))

this is not a "contradiction", it is just a matter of {{current}} developments, viz. in what sense is Gaddafi still "incumbent" anything.

In my opinion, the "incumbent" can safely be removed at this point. It is bizarre to suggest that Gaddafi is a "leader and guide of the revolution" when he is in fact on the run from the successful revolution against his regime. --dab (𒁳) 11:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Saadi Gaddafi

There is written that he was talking with the media in the late evening of August 22. This is wrong, it was Seif who talked with the media (like you can read in the link). Please correct it — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.190.206.45 (talk) 16:50, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Ruhollah al-Islam Muammar al-Gaddafihis

Where is the proof that he exists? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sentinel2150 (talk • contribs) 16:56, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Date incorrect?

In the first paragraph it states that Gadhafi abolished the constitution in 1951. Was he 9 years old when this happened? Is this a typo that should read 1971?

Jeffery C. Zimmerman — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.2.142.12 (talk) 20:39, 24 August 2011 (UTC) It said "abolished the Libyan Constitution of 1951 ...", it did not say when he abolished it. --Len2day (talk) 23:42, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

"war atrocity stories used to justify Nato bombing"

Reports by Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have found no evidence for the atrocities committed by Gaddafi. This must be included in the article. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/24/libyas-imperial-hijacking-threat-arab-revolution http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/africa/amnesty-questions-claim-that-gaddafi-ordered-rape-as-weapon-of-war-2302037.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.115.82.83 (talk) 00:19, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Change Name Spelling

As I'm sure you already know, there are many different ways to spell his name, but I just read this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/08/rebel-discovers-qaddafi-passport-real-spelling-of-leaders-name/244077/

It shows the 'official' way of spelling it is Gathafi, should it be spelt this way throughout the article?

Andrewdurie (talk) 06:15, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

There's no such thing as the "real" transliteration of an Arabic name. There are lots of different systems for the transliteration of Arabic, which partly depend on the language of the readership (e.g. English-language newspapers spell Zuwarah, French-language newspapers write Zouara) and on the principle applied (e.g. etymological, phonological, mixed). Contrary to what The Atlantic suggests, by the way, this is not a new discovery. Gaddafi's official website has been www.algathafi.org for years. - TaalVerbeteraar (talk) 07:46, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I was also involved in a project, a long time ago, where I was officially told that Gathafi is the official spelling given by himself. However, days later, we were also officially told to change everything to match other works that were made by a closer team to him. In summary, that has no meaning and we shouldn't give it a big deal, IMHO. Cheers ~ AdvertAdam ^talk 08:19, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

All that can be learned here is that Max Fisher of The Atlantic has got less of a clue than Wikipedia. "Real Spelling" indeed. "the letter Q is typically used to render the glottal stop that is so common in Arabic and that begins Qaddafi's name". What the hell? I know this is journalism, but why won't they let somebody write who has at least a remote inkling? --dab (𒁳) 11:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Gossipy-seeming section

I removed the following from the article, because it simply seems gossipy and strange, and the heading of 'personal life' for such a small gossipy section seems inappropriate, per WP:DUE, WP:NOTGOSSIP, and especially WP:BLP -- Avanu (talk) 14:27, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Personal Life Section Text

Personal life On August 2011, after the capture of his stronghold of Bab al-Aziziya by loyalist forces, a photoalbum filled with page after page of pictures of Condoleeza Rice was discovered among Gaddafi's belongings. Gaddafi had previously praised Rice, referring to her as "[his] darling black African woman", and stating that he "love[s] her very much. [He] admire[s] her...because she's a black woman of African origin." He referred to Rice by the diminutive 'Leezza' rather than her nickname 'Condi', and showered her with gifts during the visit, including a diamond ring in a wood box, a locket with his photograph and a DVD with a musical instrument, with total value $212,225 (2008 value.) The two of them shared a private late-night iftar dinner together during the visit.

This was well-sourced, is the subject of many news articles today, and the album in question was observed by an AP photographer as it was discovered. Yes, it's a bit strange, but this is *Gaddafi* we are talking about, no? Seleucus (talk) 14:39, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

See, WP:DUE and NOTGOSSIP. While it might be something accurate, is it represented in the article with the proper weight and in context? We have the heading "Personal Life" and essentially make it sound in the article like he has a crazed fascination with Condoleeza Rice. We're not here to spread or create gossip, but to make an encyclopedia. This needs a re-write, at present it is problematic to leave in the article. -- Avanu (talk) 14:43, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Saw your edit summary - WP:SCANDAL is the same section as WP:GOSSIP, the distinction is not really relevant under Wikipedia guidelines. However, your move of it in the article to a different section is appreciated. -- Avanu (talk) 14:45, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

I'm moving it around a bit and rewriting it a bit... but the 'crazed fascination' is essentially the way it's been reported in articles. I also believe that there's a difference between scandal mongering (which is what WP:SCANDAL means) and reporting of scandals...otherwise, it would be rather difficult to write Wikipedia pages for certain politicians. (And by the way, you seem to be good at editing the talk page just in time for me to get edit conflicts while writing this... 6th attempt to post this to the talk page) Seleucus (talk) 14:51, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Proposed new section

The intro mentions the King of Kings title. I therefore propose adding the following to the article:

Moammar Gadhafi "claimed to be 'King of Kings,' a title he had a gathering of tribal leaders grant him in 2008." More "than 200 African kings and traditional rulers...bestowed the title 'king of kings' on Libyan leader Muammar Gaddafi" during a meeting "in the Libyan town of Benghazi in what was billed as a first of its kind. Col Gaddafi urged the royals to join his campaign for African unity....'We want an African military to defend Africa, we want a single African currency, we want one African passport to travel within Africa,' Col Gaddafi told the assembled dignitaries, who come from countries such as Mozambique, South Africa, Ivory Coast and the Democratic Republic of Congo. The BBC's Rana Jawad in the Mediterranean town of Benghazi says Libya's leader wants them to create a grass-roots movement to press Africa's political leaders to sign up to his vision."

See also this source. --24.154.173.243 (talk) 15:00, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

References

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.154.173.243 (talk) 14:50, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

IMAGE - THE MOST IMPORTANT PART :-)

Image 2 - I believe image 2 is the best one. He's got his signature sunglasses during a foreign visit. He made far more visits and wore sunglasses far more times than he spent at an african summit meeting as "the king of kings". The african summit meeting has him appearing disgruntled and looking off somewhere. It just isn't as good.-Screwball23 talk 17:45, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Neither one is great. I'd rather see a better image than either one, but haven't seen one yet. I spent some time a few months back to just find the one we were using. Someone before that had an even worse pic that made him look like he had been inflected by the spawn of darkness. -- Avanu (talk) 18:01, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh yeah, let's add that too. haha--Screwball23 talk 18:52, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

How about an animated gif of all 300 Gaddafi outfits, 1/10th a second for each? 108.71.14.120 (talk) 03:36, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

regime change

i've (singlehandedly) replaced the Gaddafi "regime" by his "government". IMHO this is justified under WP:WEASEL and wiktionary:regime/Usage notes.

My guess is that there may be more subtle de-weaselisation work to be done on this article. Boud (talk) 20:56, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

statement that Fox, CNN and MSNBCare using the same spelling of Gaddafi is no longer accurate, if it ever was.

I saw a different spelling on each of their newscasts last night.

Not sure where the claim that these three sources used the same spelling was ever true.

128.163.192.193 (talk) 13:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

You're right. I don't know about the rest, but Fox News appears to use "Muammar Qaddafi", which is not what the article says.

203.229.100.232 (talk) 15:29, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Gaddafi's real rank

Should the article mention that he was only a lieutenant? (92.7.10.93 (talk) 16:05, 26 August 2011 (UTC))

Maybe it should be mentioned that he was not just a colonel but a complete nut. 217.227.205.58 (talk) 17:25, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, we cannot say that without a reliable sauce. Boud (talk) 19:45, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

There is a letter about it in Friday's Daily Telegraph from a man who knew Gaddafi in September 1969 and confirms he was never promoted to the rank of captain due to his political activities. (92.7.10.93 (talk) 22:47, 26 August 2011 (UTC))

He never was a colonel, or even a captian. On the day he seized power in 1969 he was only a lieutenant. (92.7.10.93 (talk) 17:41, 26 August 2011 (UTC))

Not in power any more

It is truly bizarre that the lede suggests Gaddafi is still in power in any way. (92.7.10.93 (talk) 16:43, 26 August 2011 (UTC))

Edit request from 165.230.31.178, 26 August 2011

In the last paragragh immediately avove the article title Pan-Africanism (1998-Present)" there is a grammatical error in the line describing khdafy's ambitions to unify the ara world stating:

"Shia Muslims across the Arab continue to view Gaddafi negatively since this incident."

It should read "arab world or "Arab Diapora" or something to that effect.

This should read: Shia Muslims across the Arab World continue to view Gaddafi negatively since this incident. 165.230.31.178 (talk) 16:44, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done by User:Avanu. — Bility (talk) 17:02, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The lede is wrong

Gaddafi is not in power any more. (92.7.4.36 (talk) 12:44, 27 August 2011 (UTC))

The lead has been updated, but now the infobox is wrong. GoodDay (talk) 16:16, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Fyra122, 27 August 2011

Please remove the Nation of Islam as a United States gang financed by Muammar Gaddafi under section "State-sponsored terrorism". The information is incorrect and the sited article/references (137:^ Yossef Bodansky. Target America & the West: terrorism today. pp. 301–303.) does not give information to the Nation of Islam planning a US attached. The statement is not supported, making it false information. smillie 19:32, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

 Not done According to the source, the Nation of Islam and Al-Rukn were involved together. Please read the source. Thanks, --Funandtrvl (talk) 17:09, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Ujw1502, 28 August 2011

Italic text

Change spelling of Gaddafi from Qaddafi so it is consistent Qaddafi acquired at least 20 luxurious properties after he went to rescue Robert Mugabe in Zimbabwe.[115]

• "Gaddafi" is the preferred spelling in this article. There is no "correct" version in English. -- Avanu (talk) 04:36, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Change "Former MI6 Agent, David Shaylor" to "former MI5 Agent David Shaylor"

Ujw1502 (talk) 10:27, 28 August 2011 (UTC)

 Done Fixed per source. --Funandtrvl (talk) 17:55, 29 August 2011 (UTC)

Middle name?

In some articles, Gaddafi's full name is denoted as "Muammar Mohammed Gaddafi" (including this article); in others, its "Muammar Abu Minyar Gaddafi." Anyone know why this is the case, and if one of them is more correct than others? Seleucus (talk) 01:18, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

With regards to popularity, Muammar Abu Minyar [4] appears to be somewhat more popular than Muammar Mohammed [5].Seleucus (talk) 01:20, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

[6] This is the ICC's arrest warrant, which actually has both last names. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.172.228.7 (talk) 16:31, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Specific problems with the article

Hello, I was just checking this article for current news on Gaddafi's situation and I was pretty much shocked to see what a garbage article this has become. Noticing how everyone who speaks up about this here is being told to cite specific issues, I'm going to do that.

- After seizing power, Gaddafi ... severely restricted lives of ordinary Libyans This needs some specifics written into it. At present, it just sounds like a propaganda statement. What rights were restricted? Furthermore, "ordinary Libyans" gives this a populist slant. It can easily be replaced with "Libyan citizens."

- Gaddafi started several wars, had a role in others, and spent on acquiring both chemical and nuclear weapons. Again, this is just a list of vague statements meant to call him a warmonger. The specific wars should be mentioned, and "spent on acquiring both chemcial and nuclear weapons" sounds like a sixth grader wrote it. Change the wording on that.

- "Gaddafi responded by dispatching the military and plainclothes armed men on streets to attack demonstrators; however, many switched sides. Gaddafi went into a civil war with the movement." Once again, just very shoddy writing. Clearly anti-Gaddafi. "Gaddafi went into a civil war" is written pretty much to imply that he started it. Can someone take more than ten seconds to think about a better way to write this? Is this honestly writing Wikipedia would be proud to show off?

- "He faces prosecution by the International Criminal Court, which has issued an arrest warrant for crimes against humanity.[18][19] Billions of dollars of his assets have been frozen around the world." Can we add something about the fact that his current whereabouts are unknown after the fall of Tripoli? I think that's fairly pertinent information.

- "Muammar al-Gaddafi was raised in a bedouin tent in the desert near Sirte." Dramatizing. "Muammar al-Gaddafi was raised among bedouins in the desert near Sirte."

- "Gaddafi despised the Christian calendar and changed Libya's into a Muslim-based one. " Poor grammar there at the end.

- "He was fiercely anti-Western." Show, don't tell. He put anti-Western policies into practice? Anti-Western rhetoric? What?

- "Libya enjoys large natural resources, but the high gross domestic product has been concentrated on Gaddafi's family and his elites, who have amassed vast fortunes.[56] Most of the business enterprise has been controlled by Gaddafi and his family.[57] Meanwhile, a large section of the population lives in poverty. One of the worst situations is in the eastern parts of the country." Honestly, most of this article sounds as if it's taken from a sixth grader's persuasive school report. "Libya enjoys large natural resources." Vague once again. What resources? I don't think Libya enjoys anything. I don't think large is a great descriptor for the resources. "The high gross domestic product has been concentrated on Gaddafi's family and his elites." This is just an outrageously shoddy sentence, nevermind the issue of factual accuracy. "Meanwhile, a large section of the population lives in poverty." More vaguery. How large a section? At what level of poverty? "One of the worst situations is in the eastern part of the country." This describes nothing. What is this situation? The poverty, I'm assuming? What makes it one of the worst?

- "Gaddafi spent much of the revenues on arms purchases and on sponsoring his political projects abroad." Bias again, lacking specifics. He did spend much on improving the domestic situation for Libyan citizens as well. Either get some figures to back it up or simply say he invested on arms purchases and political projects abroad, without implying he wasted his country's money on it.

- "Not much housing or infrastructure were developed for 40 years." For God's sake, this is embarrassing.

- "once a breadbasket of the ancient world" Relevance? It hasn't been a breadbasket for centuries, so why are we putting this in here to imply that Gaddafi somehow ruined centuries of prosperity?

- "Gaddafi described the Great Manmade River as the "Eighth Wonder of the World".[66]" This comes out of nowhere and has no context. Maybe you should add that he had it built?

- "Gaddafi ordered the Libyan National Telescope Project, costing about 10 million euros" Relevance? Bias? The price tag is obviously being thrown in to say that Gaddafi was wasting his money on stupid bullshit while his people had no medical care.

- "A Westerner was shocked in 2005 to see Libyan society" Who is this mysterious Westerner? Even if the source isn't named, how about some context like "a [insert nationality] traveler..." "Was shocked in 2005 to see Libyan society" is another bias statement. You already have the quote. Unless you can quote the person saying they were "shocked to see Libyan society" this doesn't belong.

- "tried to get the People's Republic of China to sell him a nuclear bomb.[97]" How about "attempted to acquire a nuclear weapon from the People's Republic of China?" Sounds less amateurish.

- "His military forces killed rebelling civilians, and relied heavily on the Khamis Brigade, led by one of his sons Khamis Gaddafi, and on tribal leaders loyal to him." This sentence is full of grammar issues.

- " A NATO airstrike on 30 April killed Gaddafi's youngest son and three of his grandsons at his son's home in Tripoli, the Libyan government said." "According to the Libyan government."

- "During Rice's visit to Libya as Secretary of State, the wealthy Gaddafi showered her with gifts, including a diamond ring in a wood box, a locket with his photograph and a DVD with a musical instrument, with total value $212,225 (2008 value.)[213][214][215][216][217][218][219][220][221]" Why is this wall of ten citations there? It looks unbelievably stupid. I've not taken the time to peruse each link, but I'm guessing at least a few of these are redundant. "The wealthy Gaddafi." Trim to "Gaddafi." Why do we need the exact value of the gifts? Is this Cosmo? Just say "During Rice's visit to Libya as Secretary of State, Gaddafi showered her with expensive gifts." And if you're keeping the specific list, change "a DVD with a musical instrument." I don't know how the DVD and the instrument are connected.

- This entire paragraph actually is just garbage. I just went back up and saw the heading. The heading is, "Battle of Tripoli." Yet 2/3rds of the text is about his Condoleeza Rice obsession. This is ridiculous. Move this crap somewhere else if it's deemed worthy of keeping.

- "Gaddafi has been an unabashed supporter of Islam" ...Are supporters of Islam supposed to be abashed? Should they be ashamed of their religion? "Gaddafi has been a vocal supporter of Islam."

- "often with blatant disregard for religious tolerance" Specify god damn it. Say that opposes religious tolerance and how.

That's not all of the specific issues, but I don't have all day to enumerate them. Throughout the article in general, a lot of vague statements need to be made more specific and supported, and poor quality writing needs to be corrected.

165.134.209.174 (talk) 20:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

Talk to Screwball about it, he's the one who unilaterally made all of these changes. I'd like to just revert all of them and go back to the revision before these changes. Toa Nidhiki05 21:08, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

That is absolute nonsense. I did not make most of these changes. Your personal attacks are not helpful, my friend.--Screwball23 talk 00:55, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

I'd rather we deal with them point by point than mass revert, as many of us editors have put in a lot of work on this to clean up his edits and add other content. To the OP, We appreciate you singling out an impressive list of potential changes, amny of which look pretty reasonable to me. I would caution, however, using such an accusatory tone. Making specific references is exactly what you should do, but there's no need to laden it down with quite so much accusation and value judgement. You can accomplish the same thing, and have a much better chance of consensus, if you approach things more civilly and assume Good Faith. Much of what you point out is in need of editing. You don't need to browbeat the other editors to convince them of it.204.65.34.50 (talk) 14:59, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

The op is correct, this article is terrible and has clearly been written/editted with an anti-Gaddafi attitude and no one is doing much about it. I did a bit to fix it and will try to do more...Public awareness (talk) 05:35, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Good work Public Awareness, I dont know how many times i deleted some of that "He is part Jewish" gossip and it keeps coming back when i go to bed.--Halqh حَلَقَة הלכהሐላቃህ (talk) 07:29, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Introduction

Why does the lede say he is still in power? (92.7.13.71 (talk) 13:17, 31 August 2011 (UTC))

He has not officially been ousted, I don't think. It's difficult, because some say he is in power and some say he isn't. The article at present notes the disputed state of his leadership - I think that is enough, until he either takes power again or is formally deposed. ItsZippy (talk) 13:20, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

Most newspapers and channels are referring to him as the "ousted leader" and his "ousted administration". Since he lost the capital and will certainly never be able to defeat the NATO-backed TNC it is ridiculous to claim Gaddafi is in any way still in power. (92.7.13.71 (talk) 16:58, 31 August 2011 (UTC))

He is actualy still in control of the towns of Bani Walid, Sirte and Ghadames and the whole of Fezzan governorate, which is more than a third of Libya in itself. EkoGraf (talk) 18:18, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

image not working?

File:GaddafionTimemagazine.jpg A March 7, 2011 cover of Time magazine of Gaddafi saying it was his "last stand". His regime lasted another 6 months. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Laughingjackal1001 (talk • contribs) 17:12, 31 August 2011 (UTC)

In power?

Why does the fact that gaddafi is no longer in power keep getting removed? Almost Every single news agency and quite a few countries have all asserted that he is no longer in power. Plus, he no longer has the ability to govern the majority of his country. Doesn't this mean that we should change the info box and lead to indicate that he isn't in power anymore? 06:07, 1 September 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.19.59.112 (talk)

More importantly, why do you not recognize that Wikipedia is not a newspaper? We don't have to run according to the 24-hour news cycle. Gather reliable sources, make neutral point of view edits, and try to see why and discuss why people make reverts or additions. We can take our time and exercise patience and we don't have to add every snippet that the media says, as they say it. -- Avanu (talk) 03:45, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

He is listed as being in power because he's still claiming his position. Besides, he is still in power of at least one city. (Stefan2 (talk) 14:54, 1 September 2011 (UTC))

Checking the article, I see that it is not stated that he is in power. It just says that he is the incumbent holder of his title. Holding a title is not the same thing as having any power usually associated with such a title. (Stefan2 (talk) 14:56, 1 September 2011 (UTC))

He is actualy still in power of more than one city. He controls the towns of Bani Walid, Sirte and Ghadames and the whole of Fezzan governorate, which is more than a third of Libya in itself. EkoGraf (talk) 18:17, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

The obvious historical comparison is Chiang Kai-shek whose regime lost power over most of China in 1949 but he still retained power over a portion of the pre 1949 country until his death in 1975. The international community switched from recognising one China to the other at various stages over the decades. Timrollpickering (talk) 21:59, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It's about time that those editing this page accept that the man is no longer "in power". He is no longer recognised as the leader of Libya by the international community or the vaste majority of Libyan's. He has no control over oil reserves and the majority of the countries finances. It makes the article inaccurate. I can "claim my position" as Prime Minister of Great Britain but it doesn't mean I am. Jacobsdad (talk) 17:13, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

He is in power. There are a lot of contries that still do not recognize the NTC. But the most important thing: he controls a third of Libya. --Ave César Filito (talk) 22:35, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Just as Cesar said. He is still in control of the whole Fezan district, which is a third of Libya, as well as three major cities in Tripolitania. Also, the international community you are talking about are only the US, Canada, half of the EU and some Arab countries. That doesn't compromise the whole world, even though the US and the EU think they are the whole world. The whole of South America, 90 percent of Africa, 85 percent of Asia and most of eastern Europe still don't recognise the rebels as the government. The world has 192 countries, of which 81 have recognised the rebels. How about the other 111? EkoGraf (talk) 03:34, 8 September 2011 (UTC)

For goodness sake, I've placed 2011 in the infobox section 'in office' as his departure date. Just because Gaddafi continues to style himself as Libyan ruler, doesn't make it so. The guy's been deposed. GoodDay (talk) 13:23, 11 September 2011 (UTC)

Reflist warning

At the end of the article, I find a warning:

"Cite error: There are <ref> tags on this page, but the references will not show without a {{Reflist}} template or a <references group="nb"/> tag; see the help page."

Can someone who knows more about this add a suitable reflist tag at some suitable place? (Stefan2 (talk) 15:04, 1 September 2011 (UTC))

Title

Is his title "Brotherly Leader and Guide of the Revolution"? I remember it was just "Leader and Guide of the Revolution" a few months ago. Therequiembellishere (talk) 19:41, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

International Law Omissions

I would echo the concerns of other posters about the propagandistic tone of this article, which falls far beneath the standards of encyclopediac objectivity Wikipedia normally requires. This is not CNN, after all, or other Western news media acting as branches of the American State Department while posing as objective. For example, why is every fact that can be cited which makes the West look bad and the Colonel look good followed by expressions of scepticism, while no doubts are ever expressed about anything pro-West?

A key example of this is the international law perspective, which omits mention of the many respected professors and other scholars of international law who have condemned the Western attacks on Libya as lacking foundation in international law. A moment's unbiased reflection should alert anyone to the fact that every nation has the legal right to use force against domestic insurgents seeking to overthrow the government by force, so how does this suddenly become an international crime justifying foreign intervention -- unless perhaps NATO is trying to recover Italy's old oil colony under the guise of humanitarian action. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.198.164.54 (talk) 19:57, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Green book

Why are there two pictures of the cover of the Green book? One in English and one in... Russian? Is the one who posted these pictures thought that the original Green book's language was Russian? Or did you think that this is how the Arabic writing looks? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.152.113 (talk) 04:48, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

The person who took the picture is a Russian and must have had copies of the English and Russian editions. It would be great if an Arabic edition had been pictured. --Marc Kupper|talk 10:31, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Opening paragraph needs cleanup

In the opening paragraph, see: "Gaddafi has lost almost all domestic and international recognition, and has lost control of the majority of Libya. He abolished the Libyan Constitution of 1951, and adopted laws based on his political ideology", the old info from when he was in power (He abolished...) needs to be moved down a paragraph or two, because the above quote does not make a whole lot of sense in its present form. --Funandtrvl (talk) 00:09, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

I've attempted to clean up the lead, but this article still needs attention, especially to its style and flow. --Funandtrvl (talk) 15:06, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Strategies for defining the date of his end of rule

Rather the promoting debate about the date of his end of rule, this section seeks to encourage discussion of history, persons whose rule ended somewhat ambiguously in the manner of Gaddafi, and the general difficulties in making the determination. The new government may settle the matter by declaring a "Freedom from Gaddafi" day. Anthony717 (talk) 08:07, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

File:Nasser Gaddafi 1969.jpg Nominated for Deletion

An image used in this article, File:Nasser Gaddafi 1969.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Media without a source as of 4 September 2011 What should I do? Don't panic; a discussion will now take place over on Commons about whether to remove the file. This gives you an opportunity to contest the deletion, although please review Commons guidelines before doing so. If the image is non-free then you may need to upload it to Wikipedia (Commons does not allow fair use) If the image isn't freely licensed and there is no fair use rationale then it cannot be uploaded or used. This notification is provided by a Bot --CommonsNotificationBot (talk) 10:17, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

More references and facts please add as I've been blocked

I can't edit this page anymore, but I wasn't finished my edits from last night. Here are some stats for the person who put the citation needed at the end of my one sentence in the lead.

average age expectancy of 77.65 highest in Africa

non significant undernourishment one of a few African nations to be at this highest rank possible.

infant mortality rates lowest for any mainland African nation

Public awareness (talk) 20:49, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

Please explain the relevance. These are all facts about Libya, not about Gaddafi. If you are trying to make a causal link between the two, you need to provide a source that says that. These sources do not say "Because of Gaddafi, the life expectancy is X, etc". If your aim was not to atrribute these things to him, I'm not sure what relevancy they have for the article. They may be better aimed at the Libya article.204.65.34.145 (talk) 22:49, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Fight against apartheid

There is no mention of Qaddafi's role in the fight against apartheid. Here are a few referenced statements by Nelson Mandela on that theme. "This man helped us at a time when we were all alone." 1 "Libya was one of those countries that supported us during our struggle when others were working with the apartheid regime." 2 "It was pure expediency to call on democratic South Africa to turn its back on Libya and Qaddafi, who had assisted us in obtaining democracy at a time when those who now made that call were the friends of the enemies of democracy in South Africa." 3 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.54.82.252 (talk) 05:23, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

Your last source seems to be a blog; and not a source that would be considered reputable under wiki guidelines. I have no issue with the first source, and don't know the second. 204.65.34.145 (talk) 22:46, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Here ere is a more official source for the third quote. As for the second source, here's a fine Wikipedia article about the Philadelphia Enquirer for your convenience.79.37.216.219 (talk) 17:30, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Rightwing and Heads of state?

Gaddafi had close ties with two European right-wing heads of state, Slobodan Milošević and Jörg Haider, who were both anti-Islamic politicians.

At first is/was only Milosevic a Head of State, Haider was only the leader of a party. And Milosevic were a Socialist he wasnt a Rigtist. The atrribtue "anti-Islamic" isnt wright because Serbia fight not only against Cosovo-Albanians und Bosnians, Serbia fight in the Yugoslavia wars against Croatia too. Jörg Haider was not specially against muslim emigrants,he was an Populist who mobillilzed and agitated with xenophonic sterotypes and he was absoltully an Oppurtunist.--77.2.25.1 (talk) 15:02, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Adjectives (epithets) risk being WP:WEASEL words unless they are relevant in terms of RS'd, NPOV'd content. The lead in the Milošević article does not describe him either as right-wing or anti-Islamic; maybe Haider should be described as anti-Islamic (my guess is some sources would say this), but it's not in the lead of his article as one of the main facts about him, so unless there is a source that claims that this is important for this article, it's difficult for us to include it here. My edit. Boud (talk) 18:49, 21 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks, your Edits were an constructive correction.--95.114.61.167 (talk) 09:09, 23 September 2011 (UTC)