Talk:Nazareth

Nazareth Village

The article links to http://www.uhl.ac/nazareth.htm, describing a visitor center called "Nazareth Village". The official webpage for Nazareth Village is "www.nazarethvillage.com".

The Nazareth Flag

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  Nazareth Flag

Can anyone add the Nazareth Flag ?

RfC: Are the Arabs of Nazareth Palestinian?

Unlike the Arabs of the West Bank or Gaza who are so often in the media, those of Nazareth are Israeli citizens. The lede of this article currently states that the population of Nazareth is, "predominantly of Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel." This conflicts with the dominant usage in the international English-language media, which treats the categories "Palestinians" and "Israeli Arabs" as mutually exclusive. The phrase "Israeli Arabs and Palestinians" gets 991 results on Google News, which makes sense only if Israeli Arabs are not considered Palestinians. When the word "Palestine" appears in contemporary news coverage, it is most commonly a reference to the Palestinian Authority on the West Bank. But of course of the Arabs of Nazareth do not come under this authority. Kauffner (talk) 09:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Usage examples:

• "He works with Iranian and Lebanese intelligence and with Israeli Arabs and Palestinians, according to the prime minister's office." New York Times, June 25, 2003.
• "In the first week of October, the Palestinian uprising in the West Bank and Gaza Strip spread like fire to the Israeli Arabs." Boston Globe, Feb 1, 2001.
• "Bishara [a political leader in Nazareth] has been highly critical of the government's policies towards the Palestinians and Israeli Arabs," Jerusalem Post, Oct. 10, 2000. Kauffner (talk) 09:39, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

See Israeli Arab#Self-identification. Zero^talk 07:42, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The survey you cite says that only 43 percent of Muslim Arab citizens of Israel consider themselves Palestinians. How they respond to surveys isn't really relevant anyway. And none of the survey data is specific to Nazareth. Kauffner (talk) 07:57, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Self-identification does matter when discussing people as individuals or groups. More importantly however is that more than one high quality RS used to write this article refers to the population as Palestinian Arab. One even says the town is "almost exclusively Palestinian Arab". Are you disputing the reliability of the sources? Tiamut^talk 08:29, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Oic. Exclusively Palestinian Arab and no Israeli Arabs at all? All I can say is, do you read the stuff you write? Kauffner (talk) 09:10, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

You claim to know the meaning of "Palestine", but you give it inaccurately, then you use that to infer (aka original research) the meaning of "Palestinian" and get it completely wrong. You won't get anywhere with this line. Zero^talk 15:21, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The survey that you yourself cited does not support the idea that a majority of Israel Arabs can be considered "Palestinian", never mind "almost" 100 percent of Nazareth residents, as Tiamut has preposterously claimed. I am proposing to take something out the article. Such a proposal cannot be considered original research. The burden of proof is on those who want to keep questionable material in. Kauffner (talk) 16:14, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

One of the sources supporting the description Palestinian Arab is Cities of the Middle East and North Africa: a historical encyclopedia (eg. page 273: "Upper Nazareth was established as a Jewish urban counterweight to Palestinian Arab Nazareth"). There is more evidence there and among the others cited and more than can be cited. There are very few sources of repute in matters of identity that would call Nazareth Israeli Arab because it flies in the face of history and the facts. Nazareth was an important Palestinian Arab city before 1948 and it became a much larger city after absorbing Palestinian refugees from the towns Israel destroyed to create itself. In any case, I see no evidence that Nazareth should not be identified as Palestinin Arab, ony your protestations that it cannot be so. Tiamut^talk 18:33, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

The Cities of the Middle East quote refers to the 1950s. At that time, the phrase "Palestinian Arab" was an idiom which meant something quite different than the word "Palestinian" does today. When Arab nationalism was riding high, "Palestine" was merely a geographic expression, to paraphrase Metternich on Italy. "Arab" and "Israeli citizen" are factual descriptors. But "Palestinian" is subjective, a claim that the residents of Nazarath have a "real" nationality that is different than the one they are legally assigned. Kauffner (talk) 04:33, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

You are just making assertions. Can you really not understand the relationship between ethnic groups and nationalities? It is ironic given the experience of Jews in pre-WWII eastern Europe who faced the same problem. Zero^talk 07:52, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I have yet to see a coherent defense of the use of this term, just a lot of filibustering. But if the basis for this is the idea that Israeli Arabs in general should be referred to as "Palestinian", that has implications for many articles, and it goes way beyond Nazareth. So I think an RfC is appropriate. Kauffner (talk) 09:25, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I assume you accept that a set can be described using more than one name by reliable sources and that that is both okay and commonplace ? The New Israel Fund for example say "Israeli Arabs – or Palestinian Israelis as some prefer to be called"[1] Or look at Haneen Zoabi who lives in Nazareth for example. She responded to the question "When you think about your identity, do you see yourself as an Israeli, an Arab, a Palestinian?" by saying "I am Palestinian—or Arab—and I am an Israeli citizen so I take my citizenship very seriously." on page 6 People, and we are talking about people, can be Israeli Arabs, Palestinian Israelis, Arab citizens of Israel, Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel. What's the problem ? Sean.hoyland - talk 11:50, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

"Palestinian", it's the new smurfy. It means whatever you want to mean. This is a reason to use the word? Kauffner (talk) 13:36, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Here are some more interesting words, social construct and cultural genocide. Sean.hoyland - talk 13:44, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

I would refer to people as citizens of what ever country they hold citizenship. As such: "Swiss", "Dutch" "South Korean" "Palestinian" "Israeli". If the people in this city hold Palestinian citizenship then they can be referred to as Palestinian. If they hold Israeli citizenship then they can be referred to as Israeli. We could also just dodge the issue by referring in the article to people as "people living in Nazareth" or "people with Israeli citizenship" or "people with Palestinian citizenship". Joe407 (talk) 14:01, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

Palestinian isnt simply a nationality. In fact, a member of the Knesset from Nazareth calls herself a Palestinian (see for example here). This is an attempt to deny people of an identity that they ascribe to themselves, on the sole basis that a collection of unrelated news articles supposedly treat the term Palestinian and Israeli as mutually exclusive. Here is a book published by the University of California Press that calls Nazareth the largest Palestinian city in Israel. Here is another one published by Bergahn Books. Here is one by John Quigley (academic) that calls Nazareth the principal Palestinian city in Arab-populated Galilee. There are a large number of sources that call Nazareth and its residents Palestinian. nableezy - 14:14, 12 December 2011 (UTC)

So it's not about nationality, but about self-esteem? I don't know why I didn't think of that one earlier. I enjoyed the "the principal Palestinian city in Arab-populated Galilee" quote. Perhaps the Arabs elsewhere in Galilee are less in need of validation. Kauffner (talk) 00:42, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Do you think your commentary is helpful to this discussion? I don't. Academic sources describe Nazareth as a Palestinian and Arab city in Israel. The sources are not written by Palestinians in need of validation. Please stop with the smurfiness and stay on topic. Are the sources unreliable? Are there sources that use different descriptions that you believe render this description improbable? Can you share them? Tiamut^talk 09:08, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I did not write that it was about self-esteem, I wrote it was about identification, An identification that the sources apply to the city and residents of Nazareth, an identification that you wish to deny them of for no reason other than a now discredited argument on Palestinian and Israeli being mutually exclusive. While I understand it may be difficult to have ones argument be demonstrated to be garbage, reacting by denigrating others' comments, and, more importantly, the sources does not in any way come close to offering a valid rebuttal. Based on your inability to respond to the well-sourced fact that Nazareth is a Palestinian city populated by Palestinians, I take it that you have no argument and that you are now simply wasting our time. Please dont continue to do so. nableezy - 13:41, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

No, Nazareth is an Israeli city, within the internationally-recognized boundaries of Israel proper, and is therefore populated by Israeli Arabs. Many of those Arabs are Christian, I'm sure they wouldn't be very thrilled to be called Palestinian... but regardless, the residents of Nazareth are not Palestinian, no matter how you look at it. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 18:46, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I've added the sanctions headers. Try to remember that they say "utilizing reliable sources for contentious or disputed assertions". It's not a forum so opinions without sources to support them aren't part of the consensus decision procedure. Sean.hoyland - talk 19:06, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Thank goodness for your comment Sean.hoyland. I so very badly wanted to answer that, Nazareth being my hometown and all, but I'll pass ... Tiamut^talk 19:13, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Several reliable sources say that Nazareth is a Palestinian city. That does not contradict that it is in Israel. Palestinian is not simply a nationality, and with several reliable sources supporting the label and none disputing it, no matter how you look at it, on Wikipedia Nazareth is a Palestinian city. In your edit summary you said do not add back without reliable sources, three such sources are listed here. Self-revert your tendentious edit. nableezy - 19:08, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

The are numerous sources from every POV on every aspect of the Arab-Israel conflict. The sources given for this claim are: 1) Michael Dumper, who describes the city as "Palestinian Arab" back in the 1950s. As I have already explained, this is not really the same thing. 2) A book review of Beyond the basilica: Christians and Muslims in Nazareth. This book describes "Palestinian or Israeli-Arab" as the "usual" terminology. (p. 11) So the book is openly revisionist on this issue. Kauffner (talk) 20:34, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

You seem to be ignoring the several sources brought here, such as Kanaaneh, Rhoda Ann (2002), Birthing the nation: strategies of Palestinian women in Israel, University of California Press, p. 117, ISBN 9780520223790, All-Arab cities such as Nazareth, the largest Palestinian city in Israel and Quigley, John (1997), Flight into the maelstrom: Soviet immigration to Israel and Middle East peace, Garnet & Ithaca Press, p. 190, ISBN 9780863722196, The other major Jewish population centre in Galilee was Upper Nazareth, established next to Nazareth, the principal Palestinian city in Arab-populated Galilee. nableezy - 20:40, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Quigly is an expert on international law and Kanaaneh is an expert on gender issues as far as I can tell. I don't think either is a reliable source for demographics. Not to mention that both are just using their favored terminology for Arab citizens of Israel which they use throughout their books. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:56, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

I am more than happy to bring either source to RS/N if you like. nableezy - 22:03, 13 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh my. Did I overlooked the birthing book? There's no excuse for that. For some reason, I thought we should follow the usage of BBC, New York Times, Jordan Times, New York Daily News, and Sydney Morning Herald. All of these sources treat "Palestinians" and "Arab Israelis" and two separate categories of people, presumably differentiated by citizenship. My favorite is this quote from Salon: "Almost all such [Palestinian-Israeli] marriages are between Palestinians and Israeli Arabs." I want see someone interpret that as self-identity. Kauffner (talk) 06:01, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I dont see anything in that veneer of sarcasm that is so clearly masking a weak argument anything that shows that Palestinians cannot also be Israelis. And I dont see which of those sources says anything about Nazareth. But if you want general sources referring to the Arab population within Israel, you can start with these books (both discussed in this Economist review, both published by top quality academic presses). I dont see anybody refuting that several sources have been brought that say that Nazareth and its residents are Palestinian and not one actually contradicting it. You want us to accept your claim that because a collection of news articles may or may not differentiate between "Arab Israeli" and "Palestinian" that we cannot say that any Arab in Israel is "Palestinian". Im sorry, but the sources clearly dont agree with your view, and that is what counts here. nableezy - 06:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Here's one (out of many) contradicting your sources [2]. It calls them "Israeli Arabs" and specifically mentions Nazareth. Here's another [3].

It's pretty obvious that authors use their preferred terminology when describing Arab citizens of Israel, which makes this a POV issue. I'm a little surprised Sean didn't come up with his usual suggestion of making it vague, by just using "Arabs" for example, but I guess he wanted to make a point about cultural genocide or something. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:08, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

That doesnt contradict my source. I am not the one that claims "Palestinian" and "Israeli" are mutually exclusive, so finding one using "Arab Israel" or "Isralei Arab" does not in way diminish that it is also "Palestinian". And one of the sources you brought says They are citizens of Israel but belong to the larger Arab-Palestinian nation. So how again does that contradict my sources? nableezy - 13:34, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

No, its not my preferred terminology. Its the trrminology used by most reliable sources. Sure, you will find some who use Israeli Arab, but they do not address the lack of use of this term by the people themselves. And they do not contradict usage of Palestinian. The terms are not mutually exclusive. Tiamut^talk 07:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

What's not your preferred terminology? Palestinian? Are you serious?

Both "Palestinian" and "Israeli-Arab" are POV terms in this context. We should use something neutral, like saying that it's the "largest Arab town" or "largest predominately Arab town" or whatever. Nobody has proven that Palestinian is the terminology used by most reliable sources or that it's the terminology most residents of Nazareth prefer, and frankly I doubt anyone will be able to. It's pretty obvious when looking at the sources that authors will describe it with the same terms they like to use for Arab citizens of Israel in general. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 08:22, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

We are talking about someone with a user box that advocates violence against Israelis. So my guess is.....serious. Kauffner (talk) 10:56, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

NMMNG, it's because I'm busy doing other stuff and not paying enough attention. I would be happy with just saying "people" but apparently it doesn't work like that. I'm interested in armchair cultural genocide hobbyists on Wikipedia and I was very surprised that Kauffner, who lives in Vietnam, a country with many peoples who self-identify in various ways with a nice big city that has 2 equally valid names, would be the one pressing this issue. Great efforts are made to erase the word Palestinian by many people in Wikipedia. It's good to have a hobby but it's most curious because you don't see it in the many other articles about people who self-identify as members of group. Anyway, I'm sure you guys can figure it out and don't need me. Sean.hoyland - talk 07:29, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Also, I'm more concerned about the discussions staying on track and sticking to policy based arguments rather than being disrupted by irrelevant comments like the one I just made above for example... Sean.hoyland - talk 07:37, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

You know nothing about my personal preferences NMMNG, so it would be prudent not to speculate.

If you examine the sources that are provided to you, you will find that how Nazareth is described is distinct fom other Arab localities because it is the only Palestinian urban center to have remained almost exclusively Arab after 1948 and it absorbed thousands of internally displaced Palestinians. Furthermore, the city and its mayor Tawfiq Ziad played an important role in the emergence of a Palestinian nationalism among Arabs in Israel . That is why you will find the preponderance of serious academic sources describing it as Palestinian. Because it reflects reality and the facts. Using Arab alone is denying this population's connection to Palestine and the Palestinian people, which is why the Israeli establishment prefers such descriptions, but we should not. Tiamut^talk 09:45, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Oh please. You removed "Arab-Israeli" from the lead of Arab Citizens of Israel claiming it was "offensive". I don't need to "speculate" about what terminology you prefer.

I have not seen a preponderance of serious academic sources describing it as Palestinian. I've seen a few sources describing it as such and others describing it as Arab-Israeli.

I get that you think things pertaining to Palestinian nationalism should be highlighted while anything related to the "Israeli establishment" (as if the BBC or the Jordan Times are part of that establishment) should be hidden, but that's not how things are supposed to work around here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:16, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

So what happened to self-identity? You lost that argument, so now you've got a new one. The gist of this one seems to be, "There's some book somewhere that calls them 'Palestinian'." Do have any idea how many books have been written on Arab-Israeli issues? Kauffner (talk) 06:38, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

And the gist of your argument is that there is a news report that calls them Arab Israelis. Do you have any idea how many news articles have been written on such issues? nableezy - 13:34, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Oic. At this point, I find it necessary to impart some basic information concerning how the publishing industry works. Major news organizations like the BBC or the New York Times, and probably even the Jordan Times, have what are called "styles". So on anything at all sensitive like this, the phrasing is decided at the organizational level. From my days as a copy editor, I can you that most reporters wouldn't know style from a hole in the ground. But it is the job of the copy editor to know and enforce such things. Of course, book publishers have styles too. But at least with the examples you have given, it seems likely that the issue was decided by the individual author and reflects his POV. You're welcome. Kauffner (talk) 17:11, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I wasnt aware I needed to thank you for anything. But to the point, none of your sources actually say that Palestinian and Israeli are mutually exclusive, and in fact one of the sources brought by No More Mr Nice Guy explicitly says that Arab citizens of Israel are also Palestinian. There are now several reliable sources that explicitly say that Nazareth is a Palestinian city, and not one that disputes this. For all your comments about style, you seem to miss what counts here. That several sources say that Nazareth is a Palestinian city, and none dispute that. So on Wikipedia, we can say that Nazareth is Palestinian. nableezy - 19:53, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Because a claim appears in some book, we have to put it in the article. This is your actual argument? As I have explained more than once already, this is a subjective word usage issue. So we can't just pull up any old author and adopt his idiosyncratic usage. Big media organizations like the New York Times, AP and BBC are the people who set the pace on style. Kauffner (talk) 23:42, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Funny. No, because a reliable source says that as a fact Nazareth is a Palestinian city and no reliable source disputes it, that is why we should include it in the article. Big media organizations are, by the definition given at WP:RS, less reliable than books published by quality academic presses. As I have explained more than once already, your unsourced opinion on Palestinian and Israeli being mutually exclusive is refuted by several sources, some of which explicitly state that Nazareth is a Palestinian city, and others that are dedicated to the topic of Palestinians in Israel, such as the two I linked to earlier. nableezy - 23:50, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

If you think of this as a factual dispute, then than the text should say something like, "Nazareth is a the largest Palestinian city is Israel, according to Birthing the Nation by Rhoda Ann Kanaaneh. However, in God has ninety-nine names by Judith Miller, it is described as, "Israel's largest Arab-Israeli city." There 156 post-1980 results for Nazareth as the "largest Arab city", only 9 for "largest Palestinian city". Kauffner (talk) 02:06, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Who said I dispute that Nazareth is Arab-Israeli? (But Judith Miller? Really? There must be a hundred better sources to support your point) What about me not thinking that Palestinian and Israeli are mutually exclusive dont you get? It says the residents are Arab citizens of Israel, and nobody is trying to remove that, so I dont understand why are arguing about them being Arab-Israeli. What I have said is that they are also Palestinian, and that is supported by several sources. Your belief that Palestinian and Israeli cannot both apply is contradicted by several sources. nableezy - 03:32, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

no, its not just some book, its most books. And yes, self-identity does matter and most Nazarenes identify as Palestinian. Read this for example [4] for an explanation of the historical evolution as regards Nazareth, and for Palestinian Arab citizens in general , see Israel's Palestinians, particularly pp. 26-29. Tiamut^talk 07:15, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Your sources cannot be verified, the Google books page is saying that "content is unavailable". In any case, yes – maybe you can provide sources that back up the historic name "Palestinians", but we are dealing with their current status here, especially in the lede. Like it or not, Nazareth is a part of Israel proper, therefore its residents are holders of Israeli passports and therefore Israelis by definition. Also, your sources call Nazareth a Palestinian city (again, from a historical perspective), but do not deny that Nazarenes are Israeli citizens. Therefore, the term "Israeli Arabs" should be the preferred one, without a doubt. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 14:53, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I think you mean, the sources can't be verified by you. I can see them perfectly well. That is the nature of google. Sean.hoyland - talk 15:08, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

The sources provided by me are not refering to the city as Palestinian in a historical perspective, and the article already said citizens of Israel. You apparently want to force on to the residents of Nazareth one label but refuse to allow the well-sourced Palestinian to likewise be applied. nableezy - 16:22, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

I am restoring the original text and adding two of the sources mentioned here. Absent a consensus to change, the original should remain in the article. This isnt a game where you can edit-war out of the article long standing reliably sourced text without anything resembling a consensus. This line has been in the article for a over a year. A user demanding that we disregard the several sources presented does not trump that. nableezy - 19:12, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

That's not how it is supposed to work. The burden of proof is on those who want controversial material in the article. The editors opposed to inclusion should not be expected to find a source where it is specifically stated that the fringe claim is not true. Kauffner (talk) 02:06, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, but claiming what several reliable sources, among them books published by top-quality academic presses, say is fringe claim is rather silly. You cant throw out several eminently reliable sources and the basis of you disliking their content. If you could produce one that actually disputes those sources you could have a point if say your source were more qualified. But you dont have such a source. Your claim that the identification of Palestinian is controversial is based on your unfounded assertion that Palestinian denotes a citizenship when it does not. We have articles on Palestinian Americans, nobody assumes that those people must be Palestinian citizens. Your premise is faulty, as is everything that has followed. nableezy - 05:34, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for bumping in on the conversation, but I saw a note this was going on at Nableezy's page. The objections here might have had some substance a few decades ago. But there is now a considerable sociology maining coming from Israeli scholars, on the transformation of the identity of Israeli Arabs (the preferred term in Israel) into Israeli Palestinians.

Kauffner you made an extraordinary statement at the outset.

to paraphrase Metternich on Italy. "Arab" and "Israeli citizen" are factual descriptors. But "Palestinian" is subjective, a claim that the residents of Nazarath have a "real" nationality that is different than the one they are legally assigned.

I caught,as any Italian would, an edge of contempt in your oblique allusion to Metternich's description of Italy as nothing more than a 'geographical expression'. Metternich wrote that 'self-serving denial of Italian statehood' because the power whose interests he served, the Austro-Hungarian empire, controlled most of the north, holding it under military occupation and had therefore a vested interest in denying statehood to Italians. Ignoring Dante, and several centuries, he needed to dismiss Italy as meaningless, as you do Palestinian as meaningless, because denying it serves the political interests of the power occupying that country. Rhetorically, to make that kind of analogy, is called 'shooting oneself in the foot'.

To then assert 'Arab' and 'Israeli citizen' are 'factual descriptors ignores what Israeli and Jewish American scholars of these identitarian issues increasingly accept, namely that Palestinian identity is not more subjective because they live in Israel, than Jewish identity has historically been subjective when Jews lived in the diaspora. How anyone can miss this beats me. A work specifically on this has just been published this June by Waxman and Peleg, summing up a decade's interdisciplinary research.

‘At present, there are approximately 1.3 million Palestinian citizens of Israel about 20 percent of Israel’s total population, and about 12 percent of Palestinians world-wide. This Palestinian population has been almost completely ignored by the international community. For decades, international discussion of what has become known as the “Palestinian problem” or “Palestinian question” has focused almost exclusively on the dire predicament of Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem. Whereas the situation of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories has received a great deal of international attention, the situation of the Palestinian minority in Israel has received little, if any, attention.'Ilan Peleg, Dov Waxman, Israel's Palestinians: The Conflict Within, Cambridge University Press, 2011 pp.2-3

They go into the issue precisely of the terminology they have opted to use as the default term here in note 4.

‘We use the term “Palstinian citizens of Israel” to refer to members of Israel’s Arab majority, whom Israeli Jews generally call “Israeli Arabs”. We avoid using the label “Israeli Arabs” in this book because it does not accurately convey the self-identity of Arabs in Israel. In numerous surveys conducted over many years, the majority of Arab citizens define themselves as Palestinian rather than “Israeli Arab”.' note 4, pp.2-3

There are several other academic works that come to mind, one indeed edited by Alexander Bligh, who at the time was chair of the Political Science and Middle Eastern Studies departments at, of all places, at Academic College of Judea and Samaria. I'm thinking of Alexander Bligh (ed) The Israeli Palestinians: an Arab minority in the Jewish state, Routledge, 2003, whose title says it all.

So (a) a scholarly source identifies your term as inexact and characteristic of Israeli Jewish usage. Academic works trump newspapers, which on things like this are mostly uptodate only with regard to the dates they use each day.

This is a no-brainer, and we shouldn't be wasting time on it.Nishidani (talk) 20:51, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Your own source admits that it's usage conflicts with the usual practice. In fact, it conflicts so strongly that the author feels the need to give a lengthy explanation justifying it. Yet your conclusion is that Wiki should follow this openly revisionist usage. Am I missing something? Kauffner (talk) 02:34, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Israeli Jews dont decide the usual practice. The source says that Israeli Jews generally call them Israeli Arabs, but that this label does not accurately convey the self-identity of Arabs in Israel and further that the majority of Arab citizens define themselves as Palestinian rather than “Israeli Arab”. Can you explain why we should apply to them what an external group calls them rather than what the source says that they largely call themselves? nableezy - 05:37, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

There is a very unclear definition by veriety of sources of who is Palestinian, but in principle while the solution is simple, there is no solution today. Until 1948, Palestinian was any resident of the British Mandate for Palestine (Jewish, Arab, Druze or Circassian etc.). Later the term was applied to those Arabs, who fled/evacuated/were expelled from Mandatory Palestine and hence were related as (former) Palestinian Arabs. After Israel was made, its citizens "turned" from Palestinian into Israeli (Jews, Arabs, Circassians, Druze etc.). But since the Arab state of Palestine didn't succeed in its birth (i don't include the fragile All-Palestine Government), their former Palestinian nationality was "sticked" to them for life - under Jordanian, Egyptian, Israeli occupation. With time, this former nationality of "Mandate Palestine" even passed on by heritage in a very unprecedented way, as most Arab governments withheld nationality from those refugees, while "present absentees" were naturalilized within Israel and Jordan (incl. West Bank). Yet, in the 1990s PA provided new Palestinian natinality cards for Arabs in West Bank and Gaza - so the nationality was revived in a way, but it also creates definition problem: is this really just natioanlity or ethnicity or heritage? It seems to me Palestinian is a sort of equivalent to Israeli/Jordanian /Syrian in many ways, but it will take time, until it will become a normal nationality, unlike the past "phantom"-identity, which passes from generation to generation. I don't see "Palestinian" becoming ethnicity, as practically most of PA residents are Arabs, who are an integral part of the Arab World and Arab League, and have even a lesser distinct identity than Syrians and Lebanese. The PA flag is a flag of the Arab Revolt, with Islamic colors, so historically PA sees itself as a continuation of the Arab Muslim heritage (even though some Christians take part in its governing). In the end, Nazareth Arabs are technically Israelis by nationality, but since some of them deny the authority of the state of Israel, they stick to the "phantom"-Palestinian national self-identity, which meanwhile became a real nationality in the PA. Such duality will not go on for long in my opinion, but lets live and see.Greyshark09 (talk) 21:45, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a private blog. These are your personal opinions. I cited sources that reflect current academic takes specifically on the question at hand. If you have academic sources that challenge them, by all means, produce them. Thanks Nishidani (talk) 21:56, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

There are several problems with your above statement. First, in the Arab citizens of Israel article we see that 43% of them prefer the term Palestinian. That's not a majority, so your source is mistaken. Second, while your source says that the term Israeli Arab is generally used by Israeli Jews, we see it is also used by others, such as the BBC and Jordan Times and quite a few other non-"Israeli Jew" sources. So trying to paint this as a Jews vs Arabs thing is also incorrect.

Anyway, it was explained to me at length that the neutral term is Arab citizens of Israel, and that's what should be used. A reader can go read the link and see how they prefer to self-identify. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:13, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Seems to me a viable solution.Greyshark09 (talk) 22:17, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

NMMNG, your own source says that Arab citizens of Israel belong to the larger Arab-Palestinian nation. That source does the exact opposite of contradicting my position that the residents of Nazareth are Israeli citizens and are Palestinians. Do you have any response to that? nableezy - 22:34, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Following that reasoning, the Arab-Palestinian nation is part of the larger Arab nation, so let's use that. One more time - Arab citizens of Israel is (according to you in a previous discussion, I can find a diff if you don't remember) the neutral term for this group of people. A reader can click on the link and find out all they need to know about self-identification issues regarding the group. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 01:57, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

We say they are Arabs, we also say that they are Arab citizens of Israel. But that doesnt mean that we cant also say that they are Palestinians, as even your own source says. I dont see why those terms should be treated as though they were mutually exclusive. Several sources obviously dont think so, and two sources devoted to the topic of the remaining Arab population in Israel specifically say that they are Palestinians. The label you want to include is already included, why should no other label be applied? But I am not asking you to follow a line of reasoning, I am asking that you respond to what the source that you brought here, a source that was supposedly contradicting [my] sources on the population being, in addition to Israeli citizens, also Palestinian. Why did you bring the source if you dont agree with its reasoning? nableezy - 02:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I didn't say they don't belong to a larger group, so I don't exactly follow your argument. What I said, and if you could please address my actual argument and not make one up for me yourself, is that a. not all sources (or even most as far as we've seen) call it a Palestinian town, and that Arab citizens of Israel already covers all the issues of identity anyway. So to put it in terms of policy, a. per NPOV you can't just pick a non-neutral descriptor you like and put it in the lead and b. per WP:UNDUE you can't over-emphasize one aspect of the issue. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 03:43, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I will do my utmost to address your actual argument. But you have to in turn do the same for me. Why is it necessary that all sources, or even most, call it a Palestinian town for us to call it, among other things, a Palestinian town? And Palestinian people covers issues like a large number of Palestinians live in Israel proper. For the policy argument, a. something is not a non-neutral descriptor simply because you say it is, or even because many Wikipedians say it is. A non-neutral descriptor would be one in which reliable sources say does not apply. B. I am not over-emphasizing one aspect, I think it is as important that they are members of the Palestinian people as it is that they are members of the Israeli citizenry. Now, I think you will agree that I have addressed your actual argument, so please do the same for mine; if there are reliable sources supporting a statement, and none opposing it, that statement is by definition a "neutral statement". There have been reliable sources saying that both that Nazareth is a Palestinian town, and about Arabs in Israel as Palestinians. No source has actually said that the residents are not Palestinian. Why should we treat Palestinian and Israeli as being mutually exclusive? I dont understand that. Israeli, as has been repeatedly pointed out by the supporters of the expunging of the word Palestinian, is in reference to the citizenship of the residents. Palestinian is not, and Palestinian people does not claim a dependence on citizenship. Why are the terms mutually exclusive? nableezy - 04:16, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but that does address my argument. It might have, if I were suggesting the article only say that they are Israeli citizens, but that's not the case. I said it should say they are Arab citizens of Israel, which wikilinkis to an article that explains all the issues of self identification at length, including the fact that they are members of the Palestinian people. That's what we have wikilinks for. Saying it twice is indeed over-emphasizing it.

As for your argument, we don't only have reliable sources saying it's a Palestinian town, we also have reliable sources saying it's an Israeli-Arab town. Again, using Arab citizens of Israel covers both nicely in an NPOV way. By the way, are you seriously arguing that "a non-neutral descriptor would be one in which reliable sources say does not apply"? How about if reliable sources use two different descriptors pretty much equally and you chose just one? Is that neutral? NPOV compliant? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Come on now, that didnt address your argument? You want it to say Arab citizen of Israel, and it does say Arab citizen of Israel. As for your later argument about sources using multiple labels, we can use them all for all I care. Im not the one trying to remove a well sourced label, you are. If you want to use something other than Arab citizen of Israel to denote their being Israeli citizens then by all means propose that. I cant say that I would oppose it saying Palestinian Arab-Israelis if that is what you are getting at. nableezy - 05:28, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Let me try one last time. This is an article about a city. This city's residents belong mainly to a certain group. This group has an article. This article describes all relevant issues concerning this group, including issues of identification and which larger groups they belong to. The aforementioned article is already linked to in the first sentence of the lead giving a reader all the information s/he might need on the subject. Sources do not exclusively or even mainly describe this city with a certain descriptor that would require us to include it in the first sentence of the lead, repeating what the wikilinked article already explains at length.

I'm certainly not trying to say it should say "Palestinian Arab-Israelis". I think "Arab citizens of Israel" by itself is precise, NPOV, and gives a reader all the information they need via a wikilink. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 06:28, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. What label should be more prominent can be solved by determining which is more predominantly used. But NPOV requires that all significant views be included. There is no requirement that a label used in the article be one that is exclusively or even predominantly used in sources, the requirement is that it is used in sources. For this reason Israel's colonies in the occupied territories are called towns or villages alongside the the precise, NPOV term Israeli settlement. I seem to recall that then you even wanted what was the less common town or village to have even greater weight than the term that is predominantly, and almost exclusively, used in sources. Im not even asking for that, all I want is to include the well sourced fact that the residents, in addition to being Arab citizens of Israel, are also Palestinian. nableezy - 06:36, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't find that comparison very convincing. Saying a place is an Israeli settlement tells us nothing about the type and size of the specific community. Town, village, or whatever adds information about the topic of the article that can't be found in Israeli settlement. Saying residents of Nazareth are Arab citizens of Israel with a wikilink to that article tells us everything about their self identification. Unless of course you have a source specifically discussing the self identification of the residents of Nazareth? So far your sources are not discussing the self-identification of the residents of Nazareth, they're just using "Palestinian" instead of "Arab" as part of their preferred terminology used throughout the source. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:15, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

The response is WP:SYNTH. The term Israeli Arabs is there to acknowledge their citizenship, and this is exactly what it is here. Therefore, calling them Palestinian is POV and does not belong here as such. Bring a few sources that disputes their being Israeli and we have something to talk about. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 22:57, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

If your concern is that they be identified as citizens of Israel, the longstanding wording in place "Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel" conveys that point more clearly. Tiamut^talk 23:24, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

The response is WP:SYNTH? Do you know what SYNTH means? Because a source, by itself, says that Nazareth is a Palestinian city. It cannot be SYNTH to call Nazareth a Palestinian city by the definition of SYNTH. NPOV requires that all notable views be included, to demand that the notable view that Nazareth is a Palestinian city not be included is what is not acceptable according to NPOV. Nobody claimed that the residents of Nazareth are not Israeli citizens, and the article says they are, so now that this straw man has been slapped aside, do you have any other policy you have not read that you would like us to address? nableezy - 23:46, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be best to not include any contentious national identifiers for the Arab population in this article. For one, it does not appear to be the case that all Arabs in Israel identify as Palestinian. A sizable portion, even among Muslim Arabs, identify as Israeli. Referring to them simply as "Arab citizens of Israel", or "Arabs" when you want something shorter, could be the best route.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 00:19, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

It already says that they are Arab citizens of Israel. Why should it not also say that they are additionally Palestinian? This isnt a contentious national identifier except for those who like to push the idea that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people. This isnt about citizenship, the text makes it very clear that they are citizens of Israel, and the link Palestinian people does not anywhere claim that it is conditional on being a citizen of some state or quasi-state. nableezy - 03:35, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Like I said, not every Arab citizen of Israel describe themselves as Palestinian. In fact, a sizable number describe themselves as Israeli. There are a lot of reasons for that, one of them being religious considerations and their relative status in Israeli society. Druze Arabs generally do not strongly identify with Palestine at all, for instance, and they are the Arab group with the most elevated status in the country. One should consider that the identifier may not be accepted even among members of the Arab population.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 04:24, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Nazareth isnt a Druze town. Here is a source discussing specifically the views of Nazareth's Arabs. Please read that and tell me you think that most Nazarenes dont identify as Palestinians. See for example the sentence A common Palestinian heritage, Israeli citizenship, and Arab culture serve to unite the citizens of Nazareth as a community seeking to better their city, improve their status as second-class citizen in Israel, support Palestinian nationalism in the West Bank and Gaza, or enjoy a common Arab culture. nableezy - 05:28, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Exactly – Palestinian heritage and Israeli citizenship. The footnote in your source makes the distinction between Israeli Arabs (the ones who live in Nazareth) and Palestinians (the relevant example is Bethlehem). Therefore, even according to your book, they are Israeli Arabs by definition. (Your other source opines that it is a Palestinian city, but no one disputes its citizens being Israeli. This is the SYNTH I was referring to.) What they support is irrelevant, and unless other sources directly tie that to them not being Israeli Arabs but distinctly Palestinian, the consensus sems to be Israeli Arabs. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 05:42, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Before you say the word again, please go read WP:SYNTH. Also, the footnote isnt making the distinction you are claiming, and the text of the book is clear. Nobody said they are not Israeli citizens, so continuing with the straw man that saying Palestinian means that we are denying an Israeli citizenship is a fallacious argument. nableezy - 05:51, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Calling them Palestinian in the introductory paragraph of the lede is both POV and misleading. It looks like everyone but you have settled on Israeli Arabs. And yes, the footnote makes that distinction. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 05:54, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Unsupported assertion after another. And directly contradicted by several eminently reliable sources that calls them Palestinian. And then a completely untrue claim. Just at a quick glance, Zero, Tiamut, and Nishidani all support including Palestinian. I cant make out what Sean thinks, but hes a big boy and will tell us if he feels like it. nableezy - 05:57, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

That same quick glance produces the voices of Greyshark09, Kauffner and NMMNG who oppose including Palestinian. Wow, even after pointing out that your own source makes the distinguishment between Israeli Arabs of Nazareth and Palestinians of Bethlehem you are still acting like it never happened. Gotta go now, will continue tomorrow. Hearfourmewesique (talk) 06:02, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Am I the one who claimed that nobody besides you wanted to remove the term? No, I am not, as unlike you I am not in the habit of making false claims. Wow, even after pointing out that several eminently reliable sources call Nazareth a Palestinian city you are still acting like it never happened. And Im guessing you still havent read WP:SYNTH. Toodles, nableezy - 06:06, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Kauffner

The source says no such thing. The source, academic, annotates the usage several of you prefer as a partisan ethnic label. By the way, 'it's' should be its. I'll repeat the key term because it has been swamped out by the usual intensive blogging by editors who talk past what a specific RS says whenever it doesn't support their opinions.

(Israels Palestinians) whom Israeli Jews generally call “Israeli Arabs”. We avoid using the label “Israeli Arabs” in this book because it does not accurately convey the self-identity of Arabs in Israel,

This is an academic POV that identifies the usage you guys are pushing as a partisan term by Israeli Jews. In wikipedia, we do not endorse usage that violates WP:NPOV by passing itself off as neutral, when it represents merely the default term of one ethnic group for another ethnic group. The phrase you are all pushing, in this view, is partisan, reflecting the preference of an ethnic majority, in the face of the term preferred as 'self-descriptor' by the majority of Palestinians who live in Israel. The question you must all address, given what these academics who specialize in the issue write, is: 'In wikipedia, when a term identified as the one used by one ethnic group to denominate another ethnic minority in their midst exists, do we stick to the majority partisan usage, (WP:NPOV) or do we use the self-descriptor?' All the rest is blah, blah.Nishidani (talk) 10:30, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

The New York Times, Boston Globe, Jordan Times, BBC.... Moses on a moped, those Israeli Jews are everywhere. Kauffner (talk) 10:56, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

You're ignoring the request. This is a specific work on the issue, analysing the POV of terminology. Instances of frequent use of that term in newspapers are wholly irrelevant to the question of whether that usage is POV or not, which is a crucial concern for this encyclopedia. If the NYT, BBC, etc., have an article which analyses the terms they use, as is sometimes the case, and that article contradicts what recent academic scholarship asserts, fine. Otherwise, please address the logical and policy issue of WP:NPOV I raised in my last sentence.Nishidani (talk) 11:12, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you address the issue of not only Israeli Jews using this term? It's quite relevant to whether the usage is POV or not. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 11:18, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

I don't address problems. I see a problem of editorial voice or in article data, go to the available academic sources on it, and present that material. But I did actually address the point you correctly raise, for in the citation, you may read:

This Palestinian population has been almost completely ignored by the international community. For decades, international discussion of what has become known as the “Palestinian problem” or “Palestinian question” has focused almost exclusively on the dire predicament of Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem.

I.e. the academic source says that the international press ignores the issue of Israeli Palestinians, identifying that group only with those Palestinians who live under occupation or in the diaspora. If this is true, then what international newspapers report is not relevant, for it reflects a bias of negligance towards a shift that has been well-documented in Israeli sources (esp. good work is coming out of Haifa university).

In any case, while I am happy to reply to everything, I would appreciate input on my request, since it touches on a key policy issue WP:NPOV. Do we use 'self-descriptors' for ethnic minorities, or do we use the majority's default term? I'm thinking of exonyms versus autonyms or endonyms. In Italy it was standard to speak of Gypsies (zingari) for a long time, descriptive but prejudicial, even of who have been resident here since the 15th century. They are now referred to as Rom or Romani, which alligns with their endonymic terminology. See also here and, just on how troubled by POV conflicts any naming is in Israel see Barak Ravid's In Arabic and in Hebrew, a name is more than just a name,’ Haaretz 15/12/2011 Nishidani (talk) 11:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

So... let me get this straight, are you suggesting to deprecate the use of the term Israeli Arabs altogether? Also, just because one academic opinion says something about international press, doesn't mean that all international press is void as reliable sources... am I the only one who sees the gigantic fallacy here? Hearfourmewesique (talk) 19:21, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

the verb 'suggest' doesn't take an infinite. 'fallacy' is dimensionless, though you may qualify it as Medusan by attaching a verbal adjective like 'glaring' to it to obtain a certain rhetorical effect. The inference you make about my statement, that it 'voids' the international press as RS, constitutes a misreading. I am asking, not for googled instances of 'Israeli Arabs' (which not being either Israeli or Arab I hear as innocuous) in the international press, but for sources that discuss the connotative valancy of these phrases. Now, instead of engendering a distractive thread on my response, I hope my interlocutors will refrain from answering my specific, germane query with further questions, and simply address the issue I raise, which goes to the heart of the problem. Thank you. Nishidani (talk) 20:18, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Nish, see MOS:IDENTITY. From my understanding, the guidance there is to prefer specific terms over general ones and respect how groups define themselves. Tiamut^talk 20:49, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes, well that makes my point better than my own sources did.

When there is no dispute, the term most commonly used for a person will be the one that person uses for himself or herself, and the most common terms for a group will be those that the group most commonly uses for itself. Wikipedia should use them too. (See for example the article Jew, which demonstrates that most Jews prefer that term to "Jewish person".)

Oddly enough, I can never bear to use the word 'Jew', and always say 'this Jewish chap,' or 'Jewish people' etc. I can't help hearing an undertone of antisemitism whenever non-Jews use the word 'Jew', even when there is none. Thanks for the policy. I never read that stuff unless directed to it:) Nishidani (talk) 21:49, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

(ec)I like how the source says "international community" but Nish pretends it says "international press" and that it "identif[ies] that group only with those Palestinians who live under occupation or in the diaspora" when the quote provided says no such thing. Smooth.

MOS:IDENTITY quite clearly says "when there is no dispute". Considering less than half this population uses any one specific descriptor, there does seem to be a dispute. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 21:57, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

Its not true that less than half the population uses any one descriptor. You keep using the one survey cited in the self-identification section of Arab citizens of Israel, while ignoring what multiple RRs have o say nd the rsults of other surveys. For example, this book on page 29 refers to a survey undertaken in 2000 where the choice was between Palestinian and Israeli : 70% identified as Palestinian and only 15% as Israeli. There are other surveys that uphold this result too. i will gather them together and add them to the self-identification section in the coming days. Tiamut^talk 22:26, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

See also p. 155 here which mentions. 2002 study by Ben Meir that shows that in 1996, 46.4% of Arab citizens of Israel identified as Palestinian while by 2000 that number had risen to 74%. Conversely only 11% identified as Israeli in 2000, according to that source. Tiamut^talk 22:37, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

This Palestinian population has been almost completely ignored by the international community. For decades, international discussion of what has become known as the “Palestinian problem” or “Palestinian question” has focused almost exclusively on the dire predicament of Palestinians living under Israeli occupation in the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem

Ok,NMMGG. Back to basic English

The Palestinian population of Israel has been almost completely ignored by the international community.

International discussion (NYTs, Thomas Friedman,etc.etc. whatever politicians say, which is invariably reported in the press, or what think tanks put out in their in house publications, which often form the basis of press analyses) focuses overwhelmingly on those Palestinians who live in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem.

I added ' in the diaspora'. That alone was smooth, or a lazy lapse from an ageing memory. Ignored by the 'international community' does not refer to the idea that an 'international community' out there snubs a Palestinian community in Israel by turning its back, pretending they are not in front of you on social occasions, etc. That would be ridiculous. Your argument from another wiki page does not hold, since no wiki page is ever complete, and that one, on this, seriously a decade or more behind the scholarship. Tiamut, I see, will remedy that.

I see. So "international community" is now "international discussion" including Thomas Friedman. Even smoother. I agree that your example is ridiculous. Good thing it doesn't resemble anything I said. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:03, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

By the way, Tiamut suffers from the same problem you do, which is always providing only sources that support your preconceived positions, while deliberately ignoring others. Check out the first page of a simple google search for "israeli arab" palestinian survey. Way to NPOV. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 00:10, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

It's not 2000 anymore. The 2010 Zogby survey found that 22 percent of Arab Israelis identified as "Palestinian". So much for the self-identity nonsense. Kauffner (talk) 03:41, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

That isnt exactly an honest portrayal of that poll. The question posed was what is the most important identity. 36% said Arab, 22% said Palestinian, 17% said Muslim, and 12% Israeli. What that poll supports is that 22% of Arab citizens said that the most important identity to them is Palestinian, while 12% said Israeli. That doesnt say anything about how many self-identify as Palestinian, except that it says that many more feel that their Palestinian identity is the most important to them over an Israeli one. nableezy - 04:32, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

It says that less than 1/4th of them identify primarily as Palestinian. Many more identify primarily as Arab. Back to Arab citizens of Israel then or do you have a more recent poll? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:46, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

It already says Arab citizens of Israel, and additionally includes a descriptive that nearly 25% feel more important than any other, with an untold number also ascribing to that identity but holding another as more important. nableezy - 05:10, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, since the difference between "Palestinian" and "Muslim" is within the margin of error of the poll, why don't we add that as well? It's about as accurate. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 05:57, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

My head's spinning. I thought Nableezy was cool with idea that they could be both Palestinian and Israeli. Isn't the issue here whether Israeli Arabs should be called "Arab" or "Palestinian"? Kauffner (talk) 04:58, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Well let me try to put the brakes on for you. The choice is not simply "Palestinian" or "Arab", there is another option, the one currently employed, both. nableezy - 05:10, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Let's do Arab Palestinian Muslim Homo Sapiens People who are citizens of Israel. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 05:57, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Not bad as humour by hyperbolic extension. But 'Palestinian Arab citizens of Israel' is a fair compromise that satisfies both POVs and the evidence from both newspapers (usage) and academic works on the sociology. The combination is fairly normal. See Roma in Hungary, which provides the exonym and the self-descriptor. As to my prejudices, I dislike exceptionalism, i.e., always making out these articles have special protocols that must delete anything perceived to be injurious to a national majority. There are two sides whose POVs must be balanced out.Nishidani (talk) 10:33, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Okay. Explain to me what 'international community' means in that context (a bunch of folks who never write the basic books or articles which inform public awareness, or who never discuss the subject, whose discussions are never reported?) and I'll perhaps accept that my choice of sources is motivated by preconceived ideas (unlike yours or anyone else on the other side of the argument, of course). I'm still waiting for an explanation of why WP:MOS should not be followed here, and why newspaper examples of usage must prevail over academic meta-analyses of the POV of established usage. Nishidani (talk) 10:27, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

This "two sides" gambit is certainly clever. I'll have to remember it. Israeli Jews and Israeli Arabs both prefer "Arab" to "Palestinian". So who's the two sides? You are putting yourself on the same level as mainstream usage. Kauffner (talk) 11:34, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Don't chat. Read sources, and by the way, explain why (2011) Jewish scholars of the question can write in a specific study of this issue of self-identity:

Israels Palestinians) whom Israeli Jews generally call “Israeli Arabs”. We avoid using the label “Israeli Arabs” in this book because it does not accurately convey the self-identity of Arabs in Israel,

Threads bury the gist of issues in sheer blague. Try to keep to the technical issues. The terminology you endorse is said by the source to be the usage generally employed by Israeli Jews. Thanks Nishidani (talk) 11:52, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

We are running around this dog track again? Peleg's next sentence says, "In numerous surveys conducted over many years, the majority of Arab citizens define themselves as Palestinian rather than “Israeli Arab”" This claim been thoroughly debunked. You must know all this already. Either that or you don't read what anyone else writes. Kauffner (talk) 13:34, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Debunked where? In the Hassan data from 2008, which you commented on, we read:

43% of Israel's Muslims defined themselves as "Palestinian-Arabs", 15% as "Arab-Israelis"

Are you familiar with how to interpret statistics, i.e., that only 15% of Israeli Muslims identify with the term 'Arab-Israeli', while triple that percentage prefer 'Palestinian Arabs', and this is precisely what Peleg says. It's been a funny week. I've had to construe simple sentences in English three times in these articles, and now do math twice to throw the dazzlingly obvious into relief.

Not to mention the fact that Peleg and Waxman's book dates 2011, the Hassan survey 2008, and as you will appreciate if you ever trouble yourself to read deeper into the source I quoted (introduction), the data change according to the impact of events, like for example Lieberman's suggestion that Israeli Arabs be shifted to Palestine, the Gaza war. My source is uptodate, you wiki page has data that confirm that of several identities, (Druze excepted) Israel's Arabs privilege by a significant proportion a Palestinian one etc.etc.Nishidani (talk) 14:11, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Majority..."a number or percentage equaling more than half of a total" (Merriam-Webster), or "The greater number or part; a number more than half of the total" (American Heritage). Except in this case, where it is less than half. Their Israeli citizenship is a matter of law. There is no need for survey data on that issue. Kauffner (talk) 14:42, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you may not have noticed in your time on wikipedia. But a POV warrior, as opposed to an empirical editor, only addresses points that interest them, ignores all difficulties, and keeps returning to whatever information or idea backs the edit he wishes to make.

(a) You disinvalidate a statement made in 2011 by referring to one poll result publsihed 3 years earlier. I raised this. It's not to your advantage, therefore you ignore it. Answering that datum, one assumes, is perceived as being of no tactical value.

(b) Hassan's survey is confessional, not ethnic. Peleg and Waxman's research result does not speak here of the confessional breakdown of identity, but of the overall non-confessional identity. The results therefore are not commensurable. You ignore this.

(c) 43% percent of Israeli Muslims identify as 'Palestinian Arabs'. 15% identify as Israeli Muslims is one datum, restricted to confessional identity, from one survey in 2008. In Peleg and Waxman's 'numerous surveys conducted over many years, the majority of Arab citizens define themselves as Palestinian rather than “Israeli Arab”, " reference is made to a great number of survey over several years, from which they deduce that a 'majority' identify themselves as Palestinian rather than Israeli Arab.

(d) The slipshod premise here is that Muslim is coterminous with Arab. It's a commonplace misprision, and accounts for your confusion.

(e) In addition you have exploited one confessional survey's figures to try to invalidate a general figure, more up to date, which determined that a majority of that population prefers 'Palestinian' to 'Israeli Arab'. This is WP:OR. We report sources, we do not play them off against one another for POV leverage as you have tried to do here by the sleight-of-hand of statistical confusion.

Is it clear that even in Yusuf Hassan's survey, the voice you wish to insert constitutes a mere 15% of the population, and therefore cannot be said to be a majoritarian self-descriptor, as policy requires for NPOV. Is that clear, now? Nishidani (talk) 16:34, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Aside from the detail that 43 percent or 22 percent or whatever is not a majority, what percentage identify as Israeli is irrelevant. Israeli citizens are obviously Israeli regardless of how they might answer survey questions. So there is no point in comparing in the number of Arabs who identify as Palestinian with the number who identify as Israeli. Kauffner (talk) 17:06, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

The polls you raise are, again, irrelevant, because they ask what do you people most identify with. Arab and Palestinian, much like Palestinian and Israeli, are not mutually exclusive. If a pollster asked me how I identify, in order of most important, I would answer "Arab, African, Egyptian". That I identify as an Arab first doesnt mean that I do not also identify as Egyptian. You keep ignoring the point, as if you were attempting to prove Nish's point about only address[ing] points that interest them nableezy - 17:16, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

It's called 'shifting the goalposts', with the outrider of a non-sequitur that is tautological.We are not discussing whether Israeli Arabs are Israelis (goodgrief!). We are discussing evidence for the self-descriptor to be applied as per WP:MOS. Please address the issues rather walking past, or talking round them. Thanks.Nishidani (talk) 17:22, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

by the way, the 2008 hassan survey we had in our article on arab citizens has no source. I asked for one about six months ago and there was nothing rs to be found to cover it all and the charts made based on it. When I was talking about the 2008 survey above, I was referring to one discussed in The Peleg/Waxman book without realizing it. Anyway, I've taken it out and replaced that paragraph with what Peleg/Waxman write on the subject (very brief though so if anyone wants to expand it they can). Help cleaning up that section further wouldbe appreciated. Tiamut^talk 17:42, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes I've had that on my mind for two days, and have checked and failed to find a source. Didn't want to raise the issue here though, until we've ironed out our disagreements on self-descriptors. In any case, it was inappropriate to argue at such length on the basis of charts provided by another wiki page, which in turn lacked a citational base. Perhaps this will be clarified, but formally, until they are, objections from an unsourced wiki chart on another page, are not valid.Nishidani (talk) 18:03, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Right, because nobody posted another more recent poll in this thread. You were saying about POV warriors? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:17, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes a more recent poll was posted. However, as has been repeatedly pointed out, the question of the poll is what identity do the respondents feel is the most important. So repeatedly claiming that because 22% said Palestinian that means that a majority do not identify as Palestinian is simply dishonest. Again, a person can identify as both Arab and Palestinian, and there has been no evidence that shows that Arabs in Israel do not identify as Palestinian, while there has been evidence presented that a majority do in fact identify as Palestinian. Does anybody care to address that? Or should I hold my breath waiting for a response while we are treated to yet another sarcastic reply that intentionally avoids that basic point? nableezy - 19:26, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The polls are primary sources and their results are open to interpretation. As Nableezy pointed out above, a poll asking what the most important identity is to a given person that includes confessional and national identities doesn't preclude people subscribing to other identities. The most reliable and up to date secondary sources we have indicate that based on multiple surveys over the last decade, a majority of the population under discussion identify as Palestinian. There is no secondary source presented to date that disputes that finding. Tiamut^talk 19:31, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry, that's also an interpretation of the source. It says the majority identify as Palestinian rather than Arab Israeli. That doesn't mean more don't identify as Arab, which would be quite consistent with the other poll posted here. He is making a specific point. Out of the group that identified as either Arab Israeli or Palestinian, most identified as Palestinian. This doesn't mean most identify as Palestinian in general. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 19:49, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Nobody, and I mean nobody, is arguing that they do not identify as Arabs, and nobody, and I mean nobody, is arguing that we should remove the word Arab. Again, you want to make this a binary question, that it is either Palestinian or Arab. It can be both, and I dont know why you and Kauffner keep ignoring that. nableezy - 19:57, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Please read. I'm saying that source doesn't say the majority identify as Palestinian, it only says that more identify as Palestinian than Arab Israeli. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:01, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

How does that even begin to address my point? Im reading, but I dont see a response to Again, you want to make this a binary question, that it is either Palestinian or Arab. It can be both, and I dont know why you and Kauffner keep ignoring that. nableezy - 20:07, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Again, please read. A majority identify as Palestinian rather than Israeli Arab does not mean a majority identifies as Palestinian over any other term. In other words, the claim that this source proves that their preferred identification is Palestinian is false. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:16, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Again, how does that even begin to address my point? Can you acknowledge that people can identify as both Arab and Palestinian? And that we can also say that people are both Arab and Palestinian? nableezy - 20:18, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Can you acknowledge that you don't have a source that would justify this entire line of reasoning? That a long list of descriptors can be justified by arguments of this type? That this is in fact meaningless speculation? Kauffner (talk) 22:05, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

No, because it is patently false. But thank you for once again, in your typically condescending and sarcastic manner, ignoring the point. In addition to the sources describing Arabs in Israel as Palestinian, there have been several sources that specifically describe Nazareth as Palestinian. That alone is justification for including the description, a description that at present has no source disputing. nableezy - 22:27, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Can you acknowledge that you don't read the sources we are indicating that justify this entire line of reasoning?

How one chooses to identify the Arab minority in Israel is often indicative of one’s politics. Supporters of Israel generally refer to the Arab community in Israel as “Israeli Arabs” or “Arab Israelis” – using the terms commonly used by Israeli governments, the Hebrew language media in Israel, and most Israeli Jews. Critics of Israel, by contrast, tend to describe Israel’s Arab citizens simply as Palestinians or Palestinian Arabs. In doing so, the emphasize the Palestinian national identity of the Arab population in Israel and clearly reject the Israeli state’s longstanding avoidance of that label. Which, if any, of these names is correct? Are Arabs in Israel “Israeli Arabs” or “Palestinian Arabs”? . .we will argue that the answer is that they are both, and neither.p.26, for starters.Nishidani (talk) 22:11, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

nmmng, if you read the whole chapter, you would not be saying what you are saying. Peleg and Waxman note that the prevalent identity among this population has shifted from Israeli-Arab to Palestinian. Fo goodness sake, their book is entitled Israel's Palestinians: The Conflict Within". Its clear that Palestinian, or "Palestinians in Israel", is the label they concluded is most appropriate to define this group and they base this on their review of polls and scholarship and other things pertaining to this group. I cannot believe you are denying ths truth by hanging onto one sentence and what it doesn't say, which is said elsewhere in heir text, multiplttimes, very clearly. Tiamut^talk 20:25, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Can we all slowly read Peleg and Waxman? The question is complex, both 'sides' would find some comfort in isolated phrases (like isolating the Zogby data from its heading, which assumes, but does not provide any intelligible analysis of, the notable hybrid identities of Israeli Arabs/Palestinian Arabs of Israel. (When you think about yourself, which of the following is your most important identity?) Read the Zogby poll against the somewhat bewildering data of many polls over the years in Israel and there's small comfort for anyone who would like to think this is a simple either/or judgement. It is extremely difficult to make a call while avoiding falling into a POV hole. Agreed? Nishidani (talk) 20:52, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

Again with "both sides"? I point out your mistakes to help you learn from them. Kauffner (talk) 14:34, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

Well, you sound very satisfied with your blunt observation, which manages to attribute as a mistake on my part what is actually a distinction made by Waxman and Peleg, which, despite my copying it out here, you apparently do not care to read, or if you did, did not spell out the meaning. Being elliptic can evince a gift for acuity, but at this level, rather impresses for the volume it speaks of an otiose insouciance to the substance of an argument and its details. So read Waxman and Peleg, for the nth. time, and try to perceive that most readers will take them to be saying that our preferences for one or other of the two terms reflect political bias, the point you wish to ignore.Nishidani (talk) 15:19, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

I've said that both terms are POV multiple times in this discussion, and that we should use the neutral term Arab citizens of Israel.

Let's step and look at the issue here. We do not have any information specifically on how the residents of Nazareth self-identify. So the wording in the article right now is not supported by any sources. If some editors want to make every instance of Arab citizens of Israel be preceded by Palestinian, that's an issue that needs centralized discussion.

We do have some sources that call it a "Palestinian city". If you look at those sources you see that they use Palestinian to describe Arab citizens of Israel throughout the source because this is the authors preferred term (see "political bias" above), not because they are making a specific statement about the self-identification of the residents of Nazareth. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 04:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Since we have RS that call it a Palestinian city, we can' metacritique these sources and interpret their bias. Everyday I observe in articles or have to add things from authors whose general bias strikes me as self-evident, but which I have no business to challenge.

Rather than underplay the POV issue, I've highlighted it, and I have no problem admitting this is difficult. It is however fairly commonly observed that the Israeli government is highly allergic to the word 'Palestinian', and avoids it like the plague of its own Arab citizens, preferring the default generic 'Arab', which however has the problem that it feeds into a very strong discursive bias according to which the indigenous Palestinians are just 'Arabs', Arabs are everywhere, and therefore have no native claim. It was put well in Waxman and Peleg:-

The category of Palestinian citizens is absent from the discourse of the Israeli state. Kanaaneh claims that the reason “the state of Israel has historically avoided the term “Palestinian” (is) because of the implied recognition of the existence of such a national group and its rights.'n.33

Arabs if Druze can have a separate identity, if Bedouin they can have a separate identity, if Palestinain, they're just Arabs. That is why both 'Arab' and 'Palestinian' seem to be required,(including both POVs in phrasing) rather than privileging one.Nishidani (talk) 07:52, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Can we drop the pretense that Israeli Arab is used only by the Israeli government? It's common all over the international English speaking media, as proven multiple times above.

And yes, when we have sources saying it's an Israeli Arab city, and other sources saying it's a Palestinian city, we need to see where the difference comes from. Unless you want to attribute it in the lead. We can't use such POV in the encyclopedia's neutral voice. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 08:04, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

No pretence, since I never said the term was used by the Israeli government. It's their official term apparently, and picked up by foreign sources, yes. But WP:MOS is being discregarded here, and a self-descriptor is required. You have allowed that both 'Israeli Arabs' and 'Israeli Palestinians' are POV, but in the same breath now say 'We can't use such POV in the encyclopedia's neutral voice,' of the latter, not the former - a patent contradiction in approach, since it means your position is. Of two POV terms, only the official Israeli one is valid.Nishidani (talk) 08:42, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Have you been reading what I've been writing? I said we should use neither of the POV terms. A neutral descriptor like the one we use elsewhere in this encyclopedia is what should be used. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 09:09, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes. You favour 'Arab(citizen)s of Israel' instead of 'Israeli Arabs', and call the former neutral and the latter POV. You think qualifying them as citizens, and transforming the nationality-adjective into a noun in the genitive case fixes the POV. I don't agree.Nishidani (talk) 10:27, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

The only problem is that our current article title is not neutral ... it reflects an Israeli government POV, as indicated by the sources cited in the terminology section, primarily because it omits mention of this population's nationality and history which is deeply connected to Palestine and other Palestinians. Furthermore, you are ignoring what the reliable sources sources have to say about how Nazareth should be described: its a Palestinan or Palestinian Arab city. Tiamut^talk 09:48, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

Way more sources say "Arab city". Britannica describes it as, "the largest Arab city of the country." Only part of this article is online, but the full article doesn't have any reference to the city being Palestinian in modern times either. If you admit that this is a POV/style issue rather than a factual question, then it is hardly reasonable to base the decision on a few scholarly works with small readership and obvious POV issues. The New York Times, AP, and BBC are the style gurus. Kauffner (talk) 11:12, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

'Small readership'? Encyclopedias, human knowledge, is 99% the work of a few for a small readership, By your antic distinction, Haaretz shouldn't be cited because Arutz Sheva and Ynwet have much larger readership. The books you dismiss are meta-discussions of POV problems in our usage. Till your handful of newspapers actually analyse usage, they only evince a stylistic convention. Biosketch today asked at Golan Heights for a source that was explicit about UN usage Syrian Golan and was within his lights and rights to delete a claim to that effect, merely based on citations of papers which used that expression. Zero found a source which explicitly said this is the term the UN uses. I.e. Biosketch wanted a meta-document on usage, and got it. Here, people are claiming any meta-documentation on usage is useless as tits on a bull. Coherence over articles, and in methods, is required here.Nishidani (talk) 15:15, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

WAW! As I am having a sleepless night, let me add my bit to this mammouth exercise in hair splitting. The question, posed in AGF terms would be like this: should we describe the majority of Nazarethians using the most commonly used term (google, international mass media), or using the term by which they most commonly self-identify (if, as it appears to be, such self-identification can be established). My understanding of Wikipedia is that it likes to use terms most commonly used by reliable sources, but there may be an exception for self-identification of ethnic groups. I don't know. However I strongly desagree with the notion that 'Arab citizens of Israel' is biased in any way (as if similar to Gypsies; btw the the term 'Roma' is most commonly used by the media, so it is naturally used by Wikipedia. This is not the case for Palestinian citizens of Israel. In fact this can cause quite some confusion if used without clarification). The fact that these people are Arabs and citizens of Israel is uncontroversial and its use by the world media testifies that it is unbiased. I do not think we need a source for this. Indeed, if the article said: a significant population of Nazareth self-identifies as Arab citizens of Israel, that would have indeed required sources. But the article says no such thing. It merely uses a term conventionally used by reliable (though not academic) sources. A suggestion: use 'Arab citizens of Israel' in the lede, but explain in the article how the majority of the population self-identifies. BTW an additional advantage of using 'Arab citizens of Israel' is that it appplies to all Arabs in Nazareth, while 'Palestinian' will apply to many but not all of them (based on self-identification). I am not so naive as to think that my compromise suggestion will be accepted but it is nevertheless tempting to join in the hair-splitting ritual. Good night. - BorisG (talk) 23:42, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

We do use the term Arab citizens of Israel. I dont understand why people keep missing this basic point. It is right there in the article. nableezy - 17:51, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

When people say we should use that term, they mean we should use only that term, and not add another POV term. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:14, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

To repeat, this is dated.

a new collective identity has emerged among Arab citizens in Israel, distinct from that of Palestinians elsewhere, This identity is that of “Palestinians in Israel”. As Smooha writes:”The hybrid identity that is slowly emerging and spreading among them (Arabs) is the self-identification as ‘Palestinians in Israel”. It properly conveys the primacy of Palestinian affiliation and orientation without renouncing Israeli connections. This is supported by Rouhana’s extensive socialpsychological study of the collective identity of Arabs in Israel based on his survey data and primary interviews with Arab politicl leaders. Thus, according to Oren Yiftachel:“(…) with the possible exception of the Druze, the Arabs in Israel are carving a separate but increasingly unified political identity, which occupies the space between their Palestinian nation and the Israeli state. ”

In sum, what has taken place since 1967 is the gradual emergence of a self-identified and distinct Palestinian national minority in Israel. The Arab community in Israel now perceives itself as a national minority and increasingly demands to be recognized as such. The Israeli state, however, refuses to define its Palestinian Arab citizens as a national minority and continues to treat them instead as a “fractured collection of ethnic/and religious groups” pp-31-32 and note 56 'The most popular identity selected by Arabs in the survey conducted by Smooha in 2003 was “Palestinian Arab in Israel.”Nishidani (talk) 18:30, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

You keep repeating that but are failing to address what I'm actually saying.

For the last time, we have no information specifically about the self-identification of the residents of Nazareth. Even if surveys show that 80% of the Arabs in Israel self-identify as Palestinian, that does not mean most in Nazareth do. If you want to put Palestinian, which you admit is POV, before every instance of Arab citizen of Israel, which is a neutral and factual descriptor, that is going to need centralized discussion and can't be decided here. The current sentence in the lead is not supported by any sources and should be corrected. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 18:45, 19 December 2011 (UTC)

I believe, absent some sourcing that specifically backs up a claim that the Arabs of Nazareth primarily identify as Palestinian, we should leave it as "Arab citizens of Israel" without adding "Palestinian" to the wording.--The Devil's Advocate (talk) 19:46, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Without having read the discussion above (tl;dr), my feeling is that the word "Arab" should be used in lieu of "Palestinian" as being more neutral. Figureofnine (talk • contribs) 17:43, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Israeli official usage prefers 'Arab' not because it is neutral, but because it is so generic it is detached from any historical relation to the lands that are Palestine/Israel. It excludes an identity of local Arabs specific to that territory. Even blind Freddy and his dog know that. 'Palestinian' is the other POV, majoritarian in Israel, as it is a factual descriptor of their kin and relatives over the Green Line. Those who oppose the use of Palestinian by expressing satisfaction with the Israeli official term are no more neutral. The problem with Nazareth is complex. But it would be extremely odd were Nazareth, one of the most 'Arab' towns in Israel, to emerge as the great anomaly to the general, established statistical fact that the majority of Israeli Arabs identify more as Palestinians than Israelis. NPOV would require a term that balances both perspectives, which Israeli Arabs or Arabs of Israel doesn't, since it is an Israeli descriptor of a minority whose identity, which the majority of the minority affirms, is denied or repressed.Nishidani (talk) 21:44, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

"Israeli Arabs" was already established Israeli terminology in the 1950s. In those days, Arab nationalism trumped everything else and "Palestinian identity" hardly existed even as an issue. Participants in this RfC should be aware of the RM at Arab citizens of Israel. As long as that title doesn't have the word "Palestinian" in it, I think it is hard to justify using it here. After all, no one has presented self-identity data specific to Nazareth. Kauffner (talk) 02:13, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

The fact that this is being so heavily debated calls into question the coherent existence of a group "palestinians". They seem to just use the term to hijack and usurp history whenever they can and not forge any actual identity. Theyre Israeli Arabs when they want things from Israel and "palestinians" when they dont want Israeli involvement. -- The city is in internationally-recognized Israel. Its an Arab Israeli city. Is Atlanta an "African" town in America? This would be like calling a city made up mostly of Chinese people, a Chinese city. Its absurd, and as usual with this conflict, is the one exception.--Metallurgist (talk) 10:31, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Strange POV in section on New Testament

The section titled "New Testament References" seems both incorrect and misleading. The details of how this text is wrong lead me to believe that the information presented is deliberately misleading.

Overall, the intent of the three paragraphs leads the reader to the following mistaken conclusions: (1) Translations from Greek to English are mistranslating "Ναζωραιοσ" as "of Nazareth" rather than "Nazarene." Greek words are inflected according to the part of speech in which they are being used. "Ναζωραιοσ" is an adjective form of the root "Ναζαρεθ" (2) Although Jesus may have lived in Nazareth, that would somehow not make him a Nazarene. The article therefore is refuting content from the New Testament, to wit Matthew 2:23: "And coming he-down-homes into city being-said "Nazareth" (Ναζαρεθ) which-how may-be-being-filled the being-declared through the (prophets) that "Nazarene" (Ναζωραιοσ) he-shall-be-being-called."

The section seems to appeal to obscure information from the original Greek before translation to English, but the assertions made about the Greek are false. Those who wrote this section may be attempting to deliberately mislead viewers.

My thought it to replace the entire section with a brief reference to Matthew 2:23, which explains the significance of the city to NT readers, without addressing the made-up controversy.

I notice the existing section has 3 references. The first is to a series of NT citations organized according to Original Research. The second is to an 1899 source. I submit these are not representative of broad modern thought on the subject.