Talk:Arab Spring

Bahrain

The text of the Bahrain section does not concur with the sources used to justify it. At the end of the first paragraph of the Bahrain section states: "On 14 March, at the request of the Crown Prince, GCC Saudi Arabian troops entered the country,[231] and opened fire on the protesters, several of whom were killed.[232][233]" In the next paragraph, it states: "On 16 March 2011, the protesters' camp in the Pearl Roundabout was evacuated, bulldozed, and set on fire by the Bahraini Defense Force, riot police, and the Peninsula Shield Force, the military arm of the Gulf Cooperation Council, which intervened reportedly at King Hamad's behest.[239]" The articles cited do not support either sentence. They make no claims that Saudi troops were definitely part of the group that opened fire on protestors nor that they were involved in bulldozing the Pearl Monument. Additionally, none of the articles support the (probably true, but still unsourced) claim that the Crown Prince of Bahrain requested the Saudi troops. Finally, there is no evidence in these citations that supports the statement that King Hamad requested either the Saudi intervention in general (though that claim makes sense) nor their participation in razing the protestors' camps. If no one objects, I will change the first sentence to read:

"On 14 March, presumably at the request of the Bahraini government, over 1,000 Saudi Arabian troops entered the country. Operating under the aegis of the Gulf Cooperation Council's Peninsula Shield Force (PSF) the Saudi troops moved to protect Bahraini government facilities. There is no evidence that the Saudi troops fired on protestors, although there were rumors of a PSF operation against the protestors. The United Arab Emirates sent 500 police officers to assist Bahraini efforts.."

I will change the second to read: "On 16 March, the Bahraini Defense Force evacuated, bulldozed, and set fire to the protestors' camp at the Pearl Roundabout, killing at least three."

If anyone can provide sources that support any of the original claims, I'll gladly support leaving them intact.

Kuwait's status?

The country has witnessed its largest political protests ever, there's been violence between demonstrators and security forces, and now the government has resigned: [1] I think it's time to give the 2011 Kuwaiti protests their own page. -Kudzu1 (talk) 17:24, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

• Support - clearly notable.Greyshark09 (talk) 18:59, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
• Support - Shouldn't be upgraded? --Smart (talk) 05:46, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Done. Article probably needs some work, but I'm slammed in RL and I'd appreciate someone else stepping in. Might help to know Arabic. -Kudzu1 (talk) 06:23, 30 November 2011 (UTC)

• Strong support — Kuwait is experiencing major protests relating to government corruption. It should absolutely have its own page. Master&Expert (Talk) 10:42, 10 December 2011 (UTC)

In the death toll table it is mentioned that the count is nil. But I clearly remember there was couple of death cases in early demonstrations of the 'Bedoun' (which mean 'without' as expression of being stateless). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mhd196 (talk • contribs) 18:26, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Saleh has stepped down, please update the article

It appears that Saleh is mentioned to still be in power while he had signed the GCC initiative and started the transfer of power. Please update the article. I find that the Yemen section is up-to-date but the Overview is not. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wsaqaf (talk • contribs) 11:59, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Saleh has not yet stepped down. --Smart (talk) 03:41, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Please view this before making such hasty and pre-mature statements:

Talk:Arab_Spring#Yemeni Uprising or Revolution?.

Saleh never steps down. What really happens on November 23 is that Saleh just signed the deal, and agrees to step down only, that means he's not really stepping down yet. Besides, if you check most of the reliable sources and news media they will keep mentioning "...outgoing President Ali Abdullah Saleh..." which is another evidence that he hasn't step down yet. About the power transfer thing, you have already mentioned "started the transfer of power", so he may have transferred 10% of his power, but still there are 90% of the cabinet which he keep to himself. How's that suppose to mean he has step down already? What if he started to break his promise again? Please read this: Talk:Arab_Spring#About Yemen

60.49.63.145 (talk) 05:29, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Even if Saleh steps down, he appointed Abd al-Rab Mansur al-Hadi as his successor. Al-Hadi was vice president since 1994 (over 17 years), so it's not really a revolution or even overthrowing of the government. Also, unlike interim leaders in Tunisia or Egypt (Mebazaa and Tantawi), al-Hadi will probably stay in power for a full term after next elections. HeadlessMaster (talk) 14:05, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

I move that Yemen be changed to light blue on the map (Governmental changes) since Saleh has officially stepped down and the vice president is now in power. This should not be considered a revolution. User: Heresbubba53190

I absolutely disagree with Heresbubba53190's statement. Ben Ali left his prime minister in charge, Mubarak left the armed forces in charge. We still call those revolutions. The 1905 revolution in Russia left the Tsar still in power and we still call the Hungarian Revolution a revolution. Why then, is Yemen not a revolution? User: Dweedman —Preceding undated comment added 23:18, 23 December 2011 (UTC).

Agree with User: Dweedman here. If Saleh has stepped down, then it was obviously due to the popular uprising against him, and meets the criteria for a government overthrown designation. And if we're going to call Hungary 1956 a revolution, then Yemen 2011 certainly should qualify.74.131.99.14 (talk) 03:22, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

For HeadlessMaster, it really doesn't matter if Hadi has ruled Yemen as a VP for 14 to 99 years (just exaggerating saying) but the policy of the Yemeni protesters is to bring down the regime of Ali Abdullah Saleh, which means starting his ouster. If Saleh steps down, then it's consider a government overthrown. Likewise when it comes to Tunisia, when Ben Ali steps down, then although the Prime Minister Ghannouchi who has ruled Tunisia since 1999 has take over, we still call it a Government Overthrown. Saying Hadi takes over Yemen is not consider a Government Overthrown is actually consider a POV (point-of-view). Wikipedia is based on reliable media and sources only.

For Heresbubba53190 and Dweedman, yes the Yemenis are calling it a revolution. They are already asking the overthrow of the regime. Even until now the protesters keep claiming that they want to "continue their revolution", so its irrevelant to call it Governmental Changes. Besides, isn't Yemen has already implementing governmental changes long time ago? That's the reason why we labelled as "Sustained civil disorder and governmental changes".

But nobody has make any official statements such that Saleh has step down, so we cannot call it Government Overthrown for now. We cannot assume that because the GCC deal has expired in December 23 then we can say "Saleh has steps down already". Like I said earlier in this topic. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 03:58, 24 December 2011 (UTC)#

Saleh is gone, as it says in this article, [2] "Since Saleh handed over the reins to his deputy under the Gulf peace accord, a new government headed by an opposition leader has been formed. A presidential election is scheduled for February." Goltak (talk) 20:34, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Nope, dude. Saleh is not gone. According to that source you show it, you forgot the word "outgoing President Ali Abdullah Saleh" which means he is still the "king" (just mockingly saying) of Yemen. Let me ask you a question, do you remember June 3 when Saleh got attacked in his presidential palace? Before he was sent to Saudi Arabia for medical treatment, he transfer most of his power to his buddy VP Hadi, but did he really step down? No, I don't think so. All transferred power were return back when he came back to Yemen at September. So the one thing the people should realize is that: "Transferring power ≠ Stepping down". Because Saleh forms a new government and he may lose his power it does not mean he was overthrown. Also remember in Egypt February 10? Mubarak once also transfer power to his VP Suleiman but he hasn't gone yet and claims wants to held office until the next election, but only later to formally decided to step down at next day. Besides, most mainstream media and reliable sources, when talks about how many were overthrown, until now they keep saying "Tunisia, Egypt, Libya" this 3 countries, but hasn't mention Yemen yet. I think you know why is that already. Saleh needs to formally step down on February, then we can call it Government Overthrown in this article and the Yemeni article as Yemeni Revolution whatever you all want to call it, depending what the reliable sources says if Saleh is really overthrown or not.60.49.63.145 (talk) 04:50, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Can't wait for Feburary. Goltak (talk) 18:27, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry to be cruel with you for a while but we don't CARE if you can't wait at February. Thats your own problem. I hate to say that but most people just always seems to rush, rush, rush like Sonic the Hedgehog and eventually, what happens? Splash all the "paint" through the wall and run like a madman because they say "MOM, DAD, I CAN'T WAIT"? I want to make it clear for you. This article is not a NEWS article, this is a HISTORY article, articles depicts historic events with historic people and places. Also, Wikipedia is always about WP:RS. Repeat, Reliable Sources. You say you can't wait, but the protesters, news and the world can wait, even me and other users can too. Why must the article be changed just because there are some people here cannot wait? Come on, don't you have other important things to do other than just editing Wikipedia all the time? I know there are important things in our lifes that we "can't wait" rather than can't wait for February!

Quite so, as of this date where I'm gonna sign this signature soon, has the article talks about "ousted President A.A. Saleh", or "former President..." or "Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen"? All I see until now is just outgoing President Saleh. Besides, the protesters and the officials, through their point-of-view already starts to worry that Saleh is going to take back the power again!! Here, take a look: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle-east/suspicions-rising-that-yemens-president-seeks-to-scuttle-deal-meant-to-end-his-rule/2012/01/05/gIQAL7cxcP_story.html 60.49.63.145 (talk) 07:40, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

• FACEPALM**FACEPALM*FACEPALM*. No genius, I did not mean I could LITERALLY not wait for Feburary so I'm going to change NOW, NO!!!! I MENT that I'm LOOKING FOWARD to when that muderer steps down.... I'm sorry if this EXPRESSION is not commonly used from your native country... Geesh calm down a little please. Try not to take it so literally, of course I can wait until Feburary to update the article, ALL I was saying was that I was looking foward to it. Although I hope Saleh doesn't try to seize power yet again. I'm sorry if you've never heard this expression before I was just simply innocently making a statement.(talk) 14:39, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

Okay. If you say so. Sorry for that. Well you could at least tell us that you aren't mean literally about "can't wait for February". After all, we don't know if you simply meant it directly or indirectly.

Its true. While you have that feeling, I guess me too. Because through my analysis the international media does not cover the Yemeni uprising more than the Syrian uprising (which I believe there was an alleged political bias among these medias) so I tend to focus more on Yemen. Tho so I don't have much time to really pay attention to Wikipedia as I have other things to do. Like you, I also want the fall of Ali Abdullah Saleh, and knowing by timeline and analyze you can notice Saleh has better tactics and tricks to stay in power than the defiant late Libyan leader Gaddafi. I may cross the line, so again, sorry for that. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 15:47, 7 January 2012 (UTC)

No harm done. When can we update the map of political change, I've noticed that it's now outdated, considering Saleh has stepped down and all. Goltak (talk) 20:00, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

• Question about that though. Should it really be called "government overthrown"? His vice president took charge after an election, I wouldn't really call that "overthrown". Jeancey (talk) 20:09, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Ben Ali was succeeded by his prime minister (of 12 years) in Tunisia and it is still considered an overthrown government. The goal of the protesters was the resignation of Saleh. They overthrew him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 158.143.165.212 (talk) 22:55, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

No. The election is on Tuesday, and there are at least 60% turnouts. But the election doesn't signal the end of Ali Abdullah Saleh. I have already gave a link about the Yemen post article, stating that the inauguration of Hadi will be held on next Monday. The inauguration of Hadi only signals the end of Ali Abdullah Saleh. So until then, Saleh still remains as the President of Republic of Yemen, and Hadi was the Acting President of Yemen. No government overthrown yet. 60.49.60.158 (talk) 04:15, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Arab Awakening?

Can somebody provide a scholarly citation for calling this "the Arab Awakening"? I have been studying the Middle East for years, and the Arab Spring since its beginning, and I have yet to actually come across somebody seriously coining the events as "Arab Awakening." The Arab Awakening usually refers to this, an Arabist movement that began in the 19th century. I won't remove the label and simply ask for discussion for now, but I will edit the Arab Awakening page from redirect to a disambiguation page. -- Crushti (talk) 21:44, 29 December 2011 (UTC)

Kenneth Pollack has edited a volume called The Arab Awakening that analyzes the Arab Spring. I've seen it referred to in a few other places as Arab Awakening (a quick google search will give examples), although the Arab Spring clearly seems to be the preferred term. Abu Casey (talk) 00:44, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Sudan

Sudan has recently just suffer another small wave of protests because of the dam proposal by the government to build it. Now some are asking for the overthrow of Bashir. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 17:10, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Covered on 2011 Sudanese protests. I'm a bit unsure whether they should be put into a new article or lumped together with the earlier protests. If they continue into the new year, my preference will probably be for splitting them off. I haven't seen them directly linked to the Arab Spring yet. -Kudzu1 (talk) 19:57, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Good idea. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 05:31, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Sudanese activist arrested days after heckling ruling party official.

http://www.sudantribune.com/Sudanese-activist-arrested-days,41152

60.49.63.145 (talk) 09:10, 2 January 2012 (UTC)

Parties to the civil conflict and Lead figures

Hello. Why is the Parties to the civil conflict and Lead figures are placed in the Arab Spring box? This is not a united Arab conflict, rather this is a separate Arab country conflicts. You can't put something like "Riad al-Asaad are allies of Sadiq al-Ahmar" just because they were both opposition leaders. Where is the evidence that Sadiq or Riad are helping each other sides? Likewise who says the King Hamad is the good friend of Muammar Gaddafi and Bashar al-Assad? He blasted both of them and declare as their enemies. Try not to do prejudice where all leaders will unite together and all opposition leaders too. In reality, there are leaders hates another leaders. If you wish to do so then do it at the separate articles but not on this general article. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 05:18, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Map Color Changes For Improved Viewing Quality?

Why are the colors for the Arab countries on the map all so very strange and unorthodox? Shouldn't primary and some secondary colors be used? (e.g. this cartogram- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:EU_net_budget_2007-2013_per_capita_cartogram.png) That'd make the map a bit clearer and less eye-weary, as well as conform to normal map standards. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm no cartographer. As a side note- Mauritania is the only Arab country without its own protest page. Should one be made? Or is nothing of relative importance happening there? Thanks— Mike44456 (talk) 01:27, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

I don't see any strange and unorthodox colour here, my friend. Its fine for me actually. We start our colour from the bright colour which shows their country has no protests before, then by going darker and darker the country is said to have experience a major protests and then uprising and then regime overthrown. This map and that map you show it all the same MAP (as long as users can identify better). The same thing I checked on the CNN Unrest On The Arab World. They all have the same strange and unorthodox map just like us.

As for the Mauritania its goes the same way as Palestinian Territory too. Both has protests before, but because very little amount (if coveraged by media) of protests happen in those country, so its no point we make such huge article, instead we go by a simple and small text under this section Arab_Spring#Others, which to me this is enough for countries like Mauritania already. If, by hypothetically speaking Mauritania has turned into the Kuwaiti pathway then maybe we would consider making an independent article, but until now no such page is needed. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 02:57, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

News Update (2)

Seems like many people tend to focus more on popular uprisings and revolutions in Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, Yemen, Syria and Bahrain, this is my discovery of those infamous Arab countries which suffer smaller protests. Any edits are welcome, if wish to.

Algeria:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ic2rj6WFjN-Y4BuxjoEoECmPaBRg?docId=CNG.4e49b326c0b56a603281add8e86b2b2d.631
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/12/us-algeria-housing-protests-idUSTRE80B12A20120112

Jordan:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/12/us-algeria-housing-protests-idUSTRE80B12A20120112 60.49.63.145 (talk) 14:56, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm not certain that there's enough to add to the main article yet, given the summaries in this article are short and the articles seem to say "there's still problems here," but we definitely need to keep the main articles updated 2010–2011 Algerian protests and 2011–2012 Jordanian protests. You've also reminded me that we ought to check the status of the Moroccan, Kuwaiti, Sudanese, and Iraqi protests, whose main articles are listed as ongoing, but are still named for last year. Or have you done that already? --Quintucket (talk) 02:05, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I have updated the main page for Algeria. I may do the same for other countries, unless someone else gets to it first (*hinthint*) --Quintucket (talk) 02:48, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

Damn it! I accidentally paste the wrong link about Jordan. Two self-immolation deaths were reported. http://channel6newsonline.com/2012/01/clashes-erupt-during-pro-reform-protest-in-jordan/

No, I didn't do that. I tend to concentrate more on Yemen and Bahrain. That's why I said everybody are welcome to edit it. But I move that some of the countries like Morocco, Jordan, should not use the word Subdued or Ended since there are still major demonstration going on once a week or months, though not necessary every day. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 08:03, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

I have update many parts of the 2011 Yemeni uprising, but still many needs to be changed. I was hoping that some of the users could join me contribute the editing of Yemeni uprising as many of them are still focusing on the 2011 Syrian uprising and the 2011 Bahraini uprising. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 04:16, 15 January 2012 (UTC)

KSA update

i've updated several Saudi Arabian parts of this article. This is more less a summary (lead of 2011–2012 Saudi Arabian protests) of summaries (the leads of the 3 individual timelines). My guess is that editors will be tempted to edit this summary directly rather than first adding content to the timeline or other specific articles - or the overall KSA article, and then looking at the thing as a whole to see if the individual events are important enough to require updates in summaries and summary of summaries. People who keep an eye on this article are welcome to shift the edits (with attribution: you should put "from [[Arab Spring]]" in the edit summary for copyright traceability) to the main body of individual KSA-protest-related articles, so that the leads don't get filled with long details about individual incidents (except for the most notable).

Given that there now seems to be a sustained cycle of protests/police shoot dead protestor/funeral/protests/police shoot dead protestor, i suspect that updates will be required quite often on the more specific articles. I don't see any point updating the Arab Spring article every time, though. Boud (talk) 00:19, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Agreed. I think that's the point User:60.49.63.145 was trying to make in the section below: "Unpopular events". And some of these articles are in sore need of updating. (For example: When I got to the Sudan article, it hadn't been updated in eight months and there's a huge gap that now needs to be filled in.) --Quintucket (talk) 06:13, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

If Saleh is leaving....

Hello to all Wikipedians and anonymous users. I want to make it clear about the Yemeni upcoming events. There was some preparation of whether Saleh is leaving Yemen so that they will have smooth transition period until the February 2012 presidential elections. In case if anybody thinks about changing it to revolution, I would like to say I reject that. Just because Saleh leaves Yemen it doesn't mean he was overthrown. Like what I have said earlier, somebody from the top ruling officials, be it the Vice-President or Saleh himself, must announce his resignation and it then confirmed by the officials and reliable medias. If that's the case, then we will stick back to square one, where the expecting overthrown date should be 21 February 2012, consider if Saleh plays by the rule stepping down (unless he wants to get out from the deal for the 4th time again). Thank you and have a nice day of editing. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 15:18, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

"Unpopular events"

Hi, I reverted the page to the last version by User:60.49.63.145, since I know that your edits almost always prove to be constructive, and it struck me as unfair that neither of the editors who reverted you were willing to discuss the issue. (I'm really not happy about having the 1RR applied to this page, the article was only really about the AI conflict because a certain two users made it so, and they haven't reared their heads in ages.)

However I'm not certain I understand your reasoning.

"Rejected. I delete it because when making summaries about the uprising, you don't need to mention about those unpopular events"

Could you explain further? Thanks, --Quintucket (talk) 19:28, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Actually it was my fault for not putting reasons, to be honest. What I meant is that when I try to compare the summaries of that Yemeni uprising with many other websites, I found out that when most of them write in the paragraph form, they just quote it from the January 27 protests (beginning of the protests), and then followed by the Feb 3 "Day of Rage", then followed by the May conflict escalation during the pre-assassination (June 3 attack) time. Since then, not much of special events happen except those daily protests. I mean, necessary to mention all this? Thats why I only remove this sentence:

"In the capital, Sana'a, the crowd marched towards the Presidential Palace, chanting anti-government slogans, despite the attempts of riot police to stop them. Three people were killed in the demonstrations, one of whom was killed by a hand grenade in Taiz. There were also reports of gunfire in Aden during a rally, and as the riots continued overnight protesters set fire to a local government building. Security forces killed one demonstrator, and killed another demonstrator during protests the following day"

Since this is not the Yemeni uprising article itself, but rather a summary, would you really need to mention about a person killed by hand grenade, or gunfire, or protesters set fire to a building? These events aren't so special so its not required to put it. Some of these happens in other Arab countries like Egypt, E.G. protesters set fire on the NDP HQ, but it was not stated here. Regardless, the rest of them are all fine.

But don't worry. If you all disagree of what I said, you are welcome to revert it. 60.49.63.145 (talk) 07:55, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

You definitely have a point. It's not possible to include everything on this page, so something like that belongs more on the Yemeni Uprising page. An abnormally large protest, an assassination attempt or the death/resignation of high profile government officials are the kinds of things that might go on this page as a summary. Jeancey (talk) 08:08, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

too many template inclusion problem

In this edit, a template was removed with the edit comment: "Removing template because template size is exceeded". i think this means the problem is having too many templates included in a single article, when all the sub-sub and sub-sub-sub etc. inclusions are carried out. Is this right?

In any case, the "dot" template usage in related-topic templates can be replaced by the listclass=hlist structure. This reduces the number of templates needed by a huge amount, and avoids having to cut/paste or otherwise generate non-ascii characters! i've updated the KSA, Bahrain, and Syria Arab Spring templates this way. The negative side of this change is that the default dots are probably a tiny bit smaller (they were already smaller than the dots in the Egyptian and Libyan templates, i think), but IMHO that's a small price to pay. The dots are really there just for spacing.

My changes probably reduced the number of included templates (dot templates) in Arab Spring by at least 100 (though i haven't counted exactly), without loss of any semantic or syntactic structure, AFAIK. Apologies if something got changed, though i tried to check carefully.

TODO: i'll let someone else do this for the other templates - the rendered change (change visible in a browser window) would be stronger for the Egyptian and Libyan cases, because they have big fat dots (at the moment, anyway).

Boud (talk) 23:28, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Article for timeline of the Arab Spring?

As of January 2012, the link Timeline of the Arab Spring is a red link, but on the search page for it [3], it can be seen that apparently every involved country has its own article on the subject. I think there is motivation for having an overall timeline, potentially including Template:Arab Spring using EasyTimeline. Mikael Häggström (talk) 15:08, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I agree that a common timeline has to be created, but it should only contain important events while keeping the less important events in the specific articles. P.S. that template definitely needs updating. Bahraini Activist ^{Talk to me} 18:34, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree. Mikael Häggström (talk) 13:46, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

No rererence to the persecution of christians?

This spring is killing hundreds of christians, who became the most persecuted religious group in the world, and the article does not even cite it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.250.57.64 (talk) 17:11, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Please provide citations to reliable sources and we'll take a look. Cheers, Khazar (talk) 17:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Forgetting news sources I know to be obviously biased (such as WND and Fox News), it appears that things have been a mixed bag for Christians. In a Google news source, I find this, this, and this, among others.

That said, I think it's really an Egypt specific phenomenon, and the focus should be on the Egyptian Revolution article, which is currently portraying things as unambiguously positive for the Copts. Only a handful of Arab countries even have notable Christian populations, (Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq, and the West Bank), not counting migrant workers in the fairly stable Gulf States. I suspect we'll see similar events in Syria when Assad is ousted (right now the news mostly expresses fears of the new Syria), but I suspect that like Egypt it will be a mixed bag: more freedom overall, coupled with more opportunities for Muslim fundamentalists to attack minorities. Arab-world Christians definitely aren't the most persecuted religious group in the world. Perhaps you should talk to some Ahmadis in Pakistan or Bahais in Iran. --Quintucket (talk) 18:42, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

The anonymous users has "complaint" about we didn't put up the statement regarding persecution of Christians. But before we doing this so, has anyone wants to put up where a Tunisian Jew are allowed to run in elections and no one cares? 60.49.62.66 (talk) 03:17, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The difference, I believe, is that Jews are no better or worse off in Tunisia, relative to the rest of the population. (If you can find a source stating otherwise, please show us.) That said, I reiterate that this seems to be an Egypt-specific issue, at least for now, and belongs in the Egypt article. --Quintucket (talk) 07:45, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

The End Date

I just want to discuss about this topic. There are several anonymous users tries to put the end date of the Tunisian Revolution (which later I revert it back to Ongoing). Given that I saw the end date of the Libyan civil war is 23 October 2011, when is the exact end date for the Tunisia and Egypt? How about possible if put 14 January for Tunisia and 11 February for Egypt? 60.49.62.66 (talk) 03:51, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

A quick look at both countriess article tell they both are still on going, currently in a transitional phase. Egypt is better organised, while Tunisia isn't. Civil war might have ended in Libya, but they too are in a transitional phase. Bahraini Activist ^{Talk to me} 05:14, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

How about saying the day Ben Ali and Mubarak were overthrown are their end date, then making the rest of the incident as post-revolution? I saw one at CNN and the others in The Economist. 60.49.62.66 (talk) 07:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think that makes sense, in the same way that we don't (for example) include the turmoil in Romania under Ion Iliescu as part of the Romanian Revolution. --Quintucket (talk) 08:03, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I completely agree with that. The Aftermath of the 2011 Libyan civil war page is a good model. -Kudzu1 (talk) 19:45, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Maldives

Little known events taking place in the Maldives. http://www.aljazeera.com/news/asia/2012/02/20122765334806442.html are they related to the Arab Spring?--Reader1987 (talk) 09:18, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I'd say that belongs under Impact of the Arab Spring. —Quintucket (talk) 18:11, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Maldives is not an Arab state despite its majority being Muslim. Its national language is Dhivehi, a language that is influenced by Indian language. 60.49.60.158 (talk) 03:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

World Press Photo

One of the Arab Spring shot just won the World Press Photo award. Should we mention this? 60.49.60.158 (talk) 05:48, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

"Sustained civil disorder" and governmental changes in Syria

artillery attacks on a city is far off of civil disorder. --Reader1987 (talk) 13:40, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

I know when I was following the Yemeni article, there are a lot of shelling between the Hashid tribes and the Republican Guards. Yet, it was still labelled as uprising. So, it maybe a far off of civil disorder in Syria, but it was still called Uprising. 60.49.60.158 (talk) 05:24, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Way too long

The article is way too long — over twice the size of the suggested max. If someone would like to address that (with spin-off articles and sprucing), that would be great. That would make it easier for readers to load and read. The article is already unwieldy and out-of-guidelines large. As an ongoing event, we can anticipate that it will only get longer.

The article is now over 200,000 bytes, making it one of the 300 longest articles at the Project. WP:SIZERULE states: "Some useful rules of thumb ... What to do ... > 100 KB ... Almost certainly should be divided".--Epeefleche (talk) 21:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

News Update as of Feb 19

Sudan:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/17/us-sudan-arrests-idUSTRE81G1JM20120217

Jordan: (LOL! The demands for ouster of the third King-appointed Prime Minister)

http://presstv.com/detail/227280.html

60.49.60.158 (talk) 14:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Good article

This is the best internet article I have seen on the topic. PPdd (talk) 02:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yemen?

The Yemeni Vice President Abd-Rabbu Mansour Hadi recently won an election to replace Ali Abdullah Saleh as President, should we change it to "Revolution"? 48Lugur (talk) 02:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

It already won, but there was no inauguration of Hadi as The President of Yemen Republic yet. His inauguration is on the "next week". So Saleh wasn't overthrown yet until Hadi was sweared in.
http://yemenpost.net/Detail123456789.aspx?ID=3&SubID=4778&MainCat=3
60.49.60.158 (talk) 03:43, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

News Update: Hadi supposedly is to sworn in next monday, but now he was expected to be sworn in to power by today Saturday morning.
http://yemenpost.net/Detail123456789.aspx?ID=3&SubID=4786&MainCat=3
60.49.60.158 (talk) 03:25, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Hadi has finally sweared in as the president of Yemen. This marks the overthrown of Ali Abdullah Saleh already. Anybody can now openly edit his post-revolt in Yemen. 60.49.60.158 (talk) 10:28, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Arab Spring and Pan-Arabism

I have a number of concerns about the use of "Arab Spring". Whilst I don't wish to cause any dissent it does seem that this phrase does resonate with and imply a form of pan-arabism. Pan-Arabism has been criticised as being racist, inciting prejudice against and downplaying the role of non-Arab peoples, such as the Berbers, Turks, Jews, Persians, Maronites and many others.

What is forthcoming from those countries that have changed their regimes (with or without outside intervention) is a "national" agenda rather than any form of regional or pan-arabic aspirations. Add to that the disconnection of "Arab Spring" from the aspirations of Palestinian Arabs and the phrase becomes almost meaningless. Even so, the phrase is being used and is being given meaning.

The phrase is being used by respected organisations, for example, Human Rights Watch's Executive Director, Kenneth Roth states: http://www.hrw.org/world-report-2012/time-abandon-autocrats-and-embrace-rights"The Arab Spring is a transformative moment, an historic opportunity for a long-suppressed people to seize control of its destiny. Yet the transformation will not be easy. The people of the region, like everywhere else, deserve the world’s support for their rights as they embark on this long-awaited venture. It is time for the Arab exception to end."

The Arab Spring or Arab Uprising may well be part of a much larger social change movement. "According to research by the Chinese Academy of Governance, the number of protests in China doubled between 2006 and 2010, rising to 180,000 reported 'mass incidents.' The uprisings are responses to myriad issues, primarily official corruption, government land grabs, Tibetan autonomy, and environmental problems."

In Dec 2011, Former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev called on Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to resign as tens of thousands of demonstrators cheered opposition leaders and jeered the Kremlin in the biggest show of outrage in Putin's 12-year-rule.

Recent events in the Caucasus, including South Ossetia, Dagestan and Georgia may be an extension of the purported "Arab Uprising" but are excluded because of the regionalisation to the Middle East and North Africa as associated with the concept of "Arab". Events in sub-saharan Africa may similarly be excluded.

As a new contributor, I am unsure of how these highly political aspects should be dealt with. Simply ignoring them does give them a political meaning.

Jonlincbrown (talk) 17:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

• These issues aren't ignored. The larger ethnic scope is included in the artice (see Arab Spring#Ethnic scope) while the influence of the Arab Spring outside MENA is dealt with breafly within the article as well as having its own separate article (see Arab Spring#Impact of the Arab Spring and Impact of the Arab Spring). Thank you for your interest, and if you feel that the above articles/sections have missed something, please feel free to mention it. ArnoldPlaton (talk) 15:11, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for your comments.

If you look at the citations for the use of "Arab Spring" the first to use the Title as such is a Jewish Magazine ^ Miller, Aaron. "What Is Israel’s Next Move In The New Middle East?". Moment Magazine. Moment Magazine. http://www.momentmag.com/moment/issues/2011/06/IsraelsNextMove.html. Retrieved 5/6/2011..

Earlier citations use "Arab spring..." and "Arab uprising..." or "Arab awakening...". In English, there is a very important difference.

Look again at the demise of Pan-Arabism and it is given, in part, as the Six Day War in 1967.

Is the promotion of an "Arab Spring" an effort to recreate a new variant of the earlier and flawed Pan-Arabism?

Part of the problem may well be "connectivity" related on my part. Sometimes a page only partially and inconsistently loads, leaving some text missing. That does cause some confusion on my part for which I apologise.

You know, just quoting somebody's opinion from a blogger in AngryArab blogspot, the founder claims that the term Arab Spring is an insult towards those Arabs who had been killed in a bloody clashes with government forces. 60.49.60.158 (talk) 08:15, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Lebanon and Map

The map should be changed to reflect the lack of sources attributing governmental changes in Lebanon in June 2011 to public protest. There may be a connection, but sources don't appear to make it, as the fall of the government in January was not a result of the Arab Spring, but of Hezbullah's political machinations. I have corrected this in the overview section, but I don't know how to fix the map. Lebanon should be colored to match the "major protest" category, not "Protest and Government Change." Abu Casey (talk) 00:37, 3 March 2012 (UTC)