Talk:Jesus

Atonement/ propitiation

I would just like to note that the article states that Jesus is believed to atone for sins. Christians actually believe that Jesus propitiated sins. Atone is to cover up, whereas propitiate is to remove. Just a minor error. 65.185.108.156 (talk) 21:43, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

My friend, there is a long WP:ANI discussion about this page, so this may not be the best time to discuss theology. In any case, that issue is really a Christian theology item, and should probably not even be be discussed in this secular page. Let us discuss again in a day or two. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 21:50, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I'm not seeing "cover up" as the definition of "atone." Atone and propitiate are synonyms, and I've never heard atone be used to mean "cover up." Atonement gained its meaning of "propitiate" because it referred to the at-one-ment (the original meaning) of God and humanity. Ian.thomson (talk) 21:53, 18 July 2012 (UTC)

It is not a theology issue, but merely a matter of simple semantics. "Propitiate" means "to make favourably inclined", which is not quite the same thing as "atone" which is "to make amends for an offence". Neither of them come even close to being synonymous with "cover up". Mediatech492 (talk) 16:39, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

Mediatech492... the Bible was not written in English, and the Hebrew word that gets translated as "Atone" does mean "to cover." It is a word picture that evokes hiding your sin from God by covering it with something (typically blood). This word then gets translated to Greek in the New Testament, which is the same word that Paul uses when he says "Propitiate." You are correct that the English words that we use to translate these Hebrew and Greek words does not mean "to cover", but the Hebrew and Greek words do. ReformedArsenal (talk) 02:26, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm assuming you have an RS to confirm this, because I've been looking and haven't found anything. Mediatech492 (talk) 22:53, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

Absolutely. The Hebrew word כפר (Used in Psalm 65:3 and other places) means to cover up. According to BDB it is "to cover (figuratively), to pacify, to propitiate). ( http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H3722 ) This word gets translated into Greek in the LXX as ἱλάσῃ. When Paul is writing about Propitiation in Romans 3:25 he uses the word ἱλαστήριον, which even someone who can't read Greek can see that the words are related. ReformedArsenal (talk) 00:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Words that are similar do not necessarily mean the same thing; furhtermore ἱλάσῃ and ἱλαστήριον are really not all that similar in appearance or meaning. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mediatech492 (talk • contribs) 00:56, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

This discussion is getting into the realm of WP:Original Research, which is not allowed under Wikipedia's guidelines and policies. Going further along these lines in this discussion is, in my opinion, not fruitful. If you want to discuss, find secondary sources that meet WP:RS guidelines, to back your viewpoint, and then we can discuss. Cazort (talk) 13:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

That's funny... because ἱλάσῃ is just the verb form of the same lexical root that we get noun ἱλαστήριον from. ἱλάσῃ is the second person singular present active deponent of ἱλάσκομαι which is defined by BDAG as "To cause to be favorably inclined or disposed, propitiate, conciliate) while ἱλαστήριον means "Means of expiation" or "place of propitiation." The two words are clearly related. Regardless of the connection between the two words (which is clear as mud). ἱλάσῃ was the translation value chosen by the LXX translators to translate as כפר. The translation value of that into English, according to the resource that I linked to you earlier as well as a hard copy one that I have on my shelf, is related to covering something up. In this context, figuratively to cover up sin. Do you have a resource that challenges this, or a reason to believe the resources I have provided are faulty? ReformedArsenal (talk) 03:40, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

What exactly are you trying to prove? The Bible was not written in English, but this article is, and "atonement" in English does not mean "to cover up". This discussion appears to be about the mutation of a Jewish concept into a Christian one. That may well mean that a concept that originally meant "covering" mutated into "propitiating", via various languages and terms. I don't know enough to comment on that. However, the latter's what 'atonement' now means in modern English, so the IP is wrong; there is nothing to change here; and this debate appears to be irrelevant. It might be appropriate for Atonement in Christianity. Paul B (talk) 12:16, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

You're right, it wasn't written in English, so rather than being committed to a particular English word, if we are trying to communicate what the theological statement that the Bible makes is then we should be communicating the concept that the original language is communicating. I'm not saying that we SHOULD be trying to communicate the theological statement, but if we are we should respect the original intent over the word that is used in a current language. ReformedArsenal (talk) 15:37, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

We do not get to decide what the best English word is. We follow established usage. The relevant policies are WP:COMMONNAME and WP:RS. "Atonement" is the established term. The relevant article is called Atonement. This article is not about Atonement it is about Jesus. If you think that Atonement in Christianity should be called Propitiation in Christianity, then you should raise the matter at the main article, not at an article in which the standard term is simply used, as it is in many other articles. Paul B (talk) 16:30, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Paul B. For all I can tell, ReformedArsenal argues that because the Hebrew and Greek words translated as "atone" meant "cover up", "atone" still carries that meaning and Christians therefore don't believe Jesus atones for sins? One might argue whether from a Biblical point of view Christians should believe that Jesus atones for sins or not, but I doubt many Christians' beliefs on that matter are informed by details of Biblical Greek and Hebrew. This article is to summarize beliefs, not discuss whether those beliefs are the result of a mistranslation (unless secondary sources do so, and even then Atonement in Christianity seems a better place for such a discussion). Huon (talk) 16:41, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

The fact that someone knew enough to comment on this discrepancy in the first place shows that it is not as though this is some kind of fringe perspective in the Church... just look at popular worship music used in Contemporary services. The phrase "cover my sins" or things of that nature are prominent. I don't really care how we treat it, I was simply to the claim that the word Atone has no connotation of covering. This is not the case, atonement in historic Christian doctrine is about covering sins, this is clear from the words used. ReformedArsenal (talk) 17:03, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Problems with NPOV, speaking for Christians

I notice some problems with WP:NPOV.

Religious Perspectives --> Christian views

"Christians predominantly hold that these works are historically true". - This does not fit with my knowledge of Christianity or my fairly broad experience with a variety of different Christian denominations. It's also vague. What is meant by "historically true"? A large portion of modern Christians, as well as quite a few going back quite some time, have not believed the Bible to always represent literal truth, but rather, to have symbolic or spiritual meaning. I think it would be more accurate to say "Most modern Christians hold these works to have a large component of historical truth, and some hold them to be literally true." or something of the like. As it stands, I think it's vague and potentially misrepresenting of Christians who do not view the Bible literally. Cazort (talk) 13:27, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

As you will know, Christians are very good at not agreeing with each other - many denominations, and many beliefs. So I think that could be softened up just as you suggested, given no central teaching office for Christianity as a whole. Not a major issue, however. History2007 (talk) 13:49, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

If you were talking about parts of the Old Testament, I could certainly see your argument. But I think you are going to need to provide reliable secondary sources that document that more than a small minority of Christians believe that the New Testament is not historically accurate and true. I can assure you that Catholics and Orthodox alike recognize its historical veracity. Now, some parts of it are factually inconsistent, and we can say that we don't know how exactly things happened, but to deny that they happened at all is a whole new kettle of fish. Elizium23 (talk) 14:50, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there are general trends, as you said. But there are many small Christian groups with diverse beliefs. A good survey is the book What Christians Believe with solid WP:RS authors. But this article is not the place to review the diversity of small denominational beliefs, given that is about Jesus and not denominations. History2007 (talk) 15:01, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

General problems with statements like "Christians believe"...

Another problem that I see with this article is that it's speaking for Christians, but it's predominately citing church scholars and people writing about official church stances. This represents official church stances, not what people actually believe.

As an example, I once had an informal discussion with two Catholics and two Lutherans about the topic of communion. One of the Lutherans asked the Catholics why Protestants were not able to take Communion in Catholic churches, and one Catholic responded with a lengthy explanation of the belief in transubstantiation, after which the other Catholic said: "Well, I don't believe that." and the one Lutheran then said: "I believe that."

So I think it is very problematic, unless you're citing actual surveys that show a consensus of what Christians actually believe, to say that Christians believe something just because it is official church doctrine or an official position. That's like representing the beliefs of Democrats or Republicans by their official party platform. It has been my overwhelming experience that no Christians agree with all the official stances of their church, not even in situations like Catholicism where the doctrine is presented in an "all or none" sort of way. And many churches (most Mainline protestant churches) do not present their doctrine in this way.

So, I'd like to start reworking this article to more better reflect WP:NPOV and WP:V. In most cases, it is not Verifiable to make statements about what people actually believe. Only what is known is official church stances, scholarly consensuses from various subsets of scholars, etc. I think it's important to make sure we are accurately communicating what type of agreement exists and not falsely writing as if it applied to people for whom we do not have enough information to know whether or not it applies. Cazort (talk) 13:43, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Separate issues:

• This article is not and should not be a Christian article - it has sections on Jewish, Islamic beliefs, etc. So the beliefs of Christians would be in the Christian section.

Yes, I agree, I just singled out Christians as an example because it's something that I know about, and it also constitutes larger sections in the article.Cazort (talk) 02:46, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

• Of course, Wikieditors can not perform stat-surveys to know what people believe. But WP:RS/AC allows for the inclusion of general trends by scholars anyway.

Overall, I think the Christianity section could be softened up a little, but the article does say "not all Christian denominations agree on all doctrines, and both major and minor differences on teachings and beliefs have persisted throughout Christianity for centuries" and does not present a unified view. It could try and make that even more clear, but I do not see a big deal, given the acknowledgement of no uniform belief system among Christian. History2007 (talk) 13:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I think there's a key distinction though between implying that Christians (or members of any religion) believe something, which I think can be problematic with NPOV and can be a bit of OR (because of the impossibility of polling), and making statements about official beliefs and scholarly stances. I'm going to think about how to word this, at the present I'm rather sleepy. Cazort (talk) 02:46, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

That is a much broader issue, e.g. the second paragraph of the article Christianity states "The mainstream Christian belief is that ..." etc. So that issue goes beyond this article. In general, if book X by Professor Y is WP:RS and it says "The mainstream Christian belief is ABC..." then that can be used in Wikipedia per WP:V regardless of how Professor Y arrived at that conclusion, or if we agree with him or his methods or not. History2007 (talk) 03:21, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

This is true of points that are not controversial, but when there are multiple perspectives, it is then important to identify who is advocating for which perspective. I think it is important to be especially sensitive when talking about a group like Christianity, that has so much diversity within it about what people believe. I also think it is important to distinguish between official church stances, and beliefs of members of that church. Catholicism is a good example, I think it is problematic to say "Catholics believe X." when what is really being cited is that the official doctrine of the Catholic church is X, as an example. I also think that, in the case of many things in this article, it is really a smaller subgroup, like theological scholars or historical scholars, who are debating or examining various points. Cazort (talk) 15:17, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

So what? I can point out various baptized Catholics who have pagan beliefs, Wiccan beliefs, and Buddhist beliefs. One of the largest religious groups in the USA is lapsed Catholics. If we were to exhaustively cover everything that lapsed Catholics believe then we would no longer have much of an encyclopedia. Furthermore I doubt there are enough reliable secondary sources accurately documenting what individual Catholics believe - this would have to be based on some kind of inherently inaccurate polling of the populus - that we would be unable to represent those views based on WP:NPOV. The overwhelming majority of sources are going to document what the Church teachings, what faithful members of that religion believe. It is probably best to just avoid 100% constructs such as "Catholics believe..." in favor of constructs like "The Catholic Church teaches..." Elizium23 (talk) 16:38, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I think you are applying the point of view of a particular religion or religions to the reasoning in this discussion, rather than adhering to WP:NPOV. In Wikipedia's neutral point of view, a label like "faithful" is meaningless...that's a POV perspective. The closest we can get to a neutral point of view is to say what the official stance is. To label someone as "lapsed" because they don't adhere to the official church stances glosses over a lot of differences. Catholicism is a great example: it is very diverse, and you don't need to go out of the mainstream to find these viewpoints...look at this article: [1] -- This cites a Pew Research Center poll saying that 46% of Catholics favor same-sex marriage, even though the official church stance is otherwise. This article provides more figures from the same source, a pew poll: [2] Not only is it problematic to NPOV to say "Catholics believe" but there are reliable sources to show contradictions to church stances on certain specific issues. I'd rather we separate what the church stances are from what the people identifying as members or adherents of these various religions actually believe. Cazort (talk) 02:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with Elizium. And in any case, the Catholic example is the extreme case, given its highly centralized teaching office. New nontrinatarian groups are getting formed in South America as we speak and it is not at all clear what they teach - it changes. All Wikipedia can do is "summarize" a book such as "What Christians believe". And in any case that issue is peripheral to this page and should really be the issue for the Christian theology page. History2007 (talk) 17:59, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Druid Jesus?

A statement was added about the etymology of Jesus being Druid, etc. It says: "Some scholars have suggested the name was already in use in Europe as an aspect of the druidic trinity, described by Procopius as "Hesus, Taranis, Belinus unus tantummodo Deus Unum Deum Dominum universi Druides Solum agnoscunt."

The references that support this are hardly WP:RS. A few of them are from the 1870s, and not usable at all. The 1936 book is also far too old and not mainstream scholarship. Either recent mainstream sources need to get added to support that, or it should be seen as fringe. I tagged it anyway, waiting for recent, mainstream WP:RS sources. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 07:59, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Well a WP:RS reference (The British Chronicles by David Hughes, 2007) David Hughes (1 January 2007). The British Chronicles. Heritage Books. pp. 47–. ISBN 978-0-7884-4490-6. Retrieved 17 August 2012. was added there now, but it disproves the claim. On page 47 Hughes states:

• "it is more probable that druidic trinity Bellus (Belus Balor, Bile), Taranis, and Hesus/Jesus (Eisu; Esus; lesu) developed after the introduction of Christianity during the later regression of the Picts back into paganism."

So the assertions from the 1870s books that Jesus was derived from the druidic Hesus are not applicable, given that the modern source rejects that. History2007 (talk) 12:50, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

The source also says

• "If the British god Esus pre-dates Christianity which some historians argue then when Christian missionaries preached Jesus as God in Britain, they thus preached to the Britons the name of one of their own deities."

This is in line with the statement on the page. Hughes also gives evidence of Hesus appearing an a relief dated 75 CE, along with accounts of Roman historians discussing him being worshiped in Britain during the war period circa. 41-61 CE. This is a very narrow time period since the introduction of Christianity to Britain. It would seem fairly likely to me that Hesus predated Christianity. Your quote above only shows that the druidic trinity concept was likely a later development as it was in Christianity, which I agree, it probably was. The "striking similarity" still gets a mention in other WP:RS sources such as this Celtic encyclopedia. Patricia Monaghan (1 January 2009). The Encyclopedia of Celtic Mythology and Folklore. Infobase Publishing. pp. 161–. ISBN 978-1-4381-1037-0. Retrieved 4 August 2012. and there are plenty of other sources, both old and modern (some a bit fringe, but some not) that I can list if needed, so I would still argue it deserves some coverage. Paul Bedson ❉talk❉ 13:14, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, let us see what other people say. From all I know, the very suggestion that the name Jesus given to Jesus of Nazareth derives from Druid sources is way out WP:Fringe. The key point is that the name Jesus was not just for "Jesus of Nazareth" but was common in first century Judea, as evidenced by the fact the works of Josephus refer to at least 20 people called Jesus. So you need to show sources that actually say that, not infer it.

In any case, what is clear now is this:

• The mention of the druid trinity in this article is not justified given the Hughes comment above. For that was certainly not taught to the Jews or Christians by the druids.

• Even if the name Hesus predates Christianity, you have presented no case that the Jews learned that name from the druids. All you have shown is that when the missionaries got to Britain, they may have encountered that name. So what? That was long after the first century.

• You have presented no source that says that druid missionaries went to Jerusalem (that would be the day!) and taught the Jews the name Jesus. Have you?

So I see no logic, and no source here that Jesus of Nazareth, or any other Jesus in Judea in the first century got their name from the druids, and that its etymology is druid-based. I see no source for that at all. History2007 (talk) 14:15, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I agree with History2007. Whether or not similar names were in use in other parts of the world is irrelevant to the Biblical Jesus, and that factoid might be interestig to early Christianity in Britain, but it's off-topic here. Huon (talk) 14:38, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

I follow your logic. But do spare a second to follow mine, which I admit agrees with the view of a minority of modern scholars (not way out fringe and reflected as such in the article) that Jesus was not a historical figure but a composite myth, expounded thoroughly in the work of John M. Allegro in his book The Dead Sea Scrolls and the Christian Myth (1979) amongst others. To such a minor school of thought, the derivation of Jesus from Hesus, along with others would make perfect sense as the writers of the Gospels would likely have had knowledge of the British gods as it was a hot news topic at the time of the Roman invasion of Britain. Hence, i still think the factoid should stay, but agree with Huon that it is possibly best not in this article, perhaps the Historicity of Jesus would be a more appropriate place for it. Paul Bedson ❉talk❉ 17:56, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Anyway, the long and short of it is that there is general agreement that Hesus does not fit in this article. As to where it fits, based on your statement it would be the Christ myth theory page which discusses myths. I have not read Allegro and do not intend to, but to add it there you will need to show that Allegro talked about it, else it is WP:OR. But I do not watch or edit the Christ myth theory page, so please discuss it with the people there. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 18:34, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Who makes the claim that a mythical Jesus was named after a Druidic god? Wherever we want to add that claim, we'd need a reliable source stating exactly that - if we argue that A calls Jesus mythological, B discusses the name "Hesus" in Druidic Britain, and C says that the Roman conquest of those barbarians was a hot topic in 1st century Palestine, and it is us who conclude that therefore Jesus was likely named for a Druidic god, we create a synthesis (and we should not). As an aside: Were the other 21 or so Jesuses mentioned by Josephus also named after the Druidic god, or is it a more reasonable assumption that, whether or not Jesus existed, the name was a common one in Judea at that time, with an Aramaic etymology? Huon (talk) 20:25, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Josephus named over 20, but he did not name everyone because a baker in Jerusalem named Jesus was probably not Josephus:Notable enough to be mentioned. So there were probably hundreds of them. But that is speculation, just as the claims that the Romans taught the Pharisees to name their children Hesus, or Giovanni for that matter History2007 (talk) 20:53, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Arabic

I'd like to add an alternate term for Jesus in Arabic, Yasū‘, since Isa is not the only term. --Article editor (talk) 08:26, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

I would second that, since Yasū‘ pronunciation was used from the beginning there were Arab Christians, and is still being used by Arab Christians (and non-Arab Christians speaking Arabic) today. On the other hand, Isa is used exclusively by Arab Moslems, and other ethnicity who are Moslems. There was and will be no Arab Christians using it. YN Susilo (talk) 15:24, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Image of Christ

When many traditional Protestants and early church teachers rejected pictorial depictions of the one they considered to be the 'Image of God', it seems inappropriate to depict him here, without some reference to the body of reformed and patristic opinion which strongly opposed this as a breach of the second commandment. A summary of this case is here [3]. Cpsoper (talk) 17:02, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Not exactly. That is just the half of it. Please see God the Father in Western art about iconoclasm, its end, etc. and how in the 8th century Jesus was depicted but only God's hand was, etc. And how in the 12th century, long before the Reformation Jesus was shown as a substitute for the Father, etc. But that discussion is really peripheral here. But perhaps a sentence about the later 15th-17th century type iconoclasm can be added to the depictions of Jesus section. But to open that discussion will invite 20 paragraphs, so need to keep it as a few links really. History2007 (talk) 17:55, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I appreciate this has been a raucous area of controversy, and we must be careful to preserve light without heat. However iconoclasm was not an innovation, more a violent reincarnation of earlier, forgotten doctrine, as is plain from Irenaeus in the 2nd century who described images of Christ as Gnostic and Gentile: 'They style themselves Gnostics. They also possess images, some of them painted, and others formed from different kinds of material; while they maintain that a likeness of Christ was made by Pilate at that time when Jesus lived among them. They crown these images, and set them up along with the images of the philosophers of the world that is to say, with the images of Pythagoras, and Plato, and Aristotle, and the rest. They have also other modes of honouring these images, after the same manner of the Gentiles.' Contr.Her.I.XXV.6. Justin, Tertullian, Athanasius and Augustine echo these sentiments centuries before iconoclasm. There are no extant images before the 4th century to my knowledge (though clearly Gnostics used them in the second). The article ought to reflect this history near to the image even if briefly. Cpsoper (talk) 22:48, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Well, that discussion really belongs on the Depictions of Jesus page, and once added there, a sentence can appear here. But given that that web site is your own, another source needs to be found. Please discuss on Depictions of Jesus and see what they say. Thanks. History2007 (talk) 22:53, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Bahai views

I think the following sentence should be removed from the lead: "Bahá'í scripture almost never refers to Jesus as the Messiah, but calls him a Manifestation of God, a concept that refers to intermediaries between God and humanity, serving as messengers and reflecting God's qualities and attributes." The Bahai Faith is only one of many religions that might have views about Jesus, and compared to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, they are quite a small and marginal sect. Mentioning their views of Jesus in the lead is a bit like mentioning Scientology views of the subject. Ywreuv (talk) 01:25, 4 September 2012 (UTC)