Talk:Ceviche

Why doesn't an independent professional edit this article?

For everyone discussing on this forum, the user http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MarshalN20 is peruvian or comes from Peru. I don't believe his contribution is really unbiased and anyone who thinks otherwise is really gullible. Who are these "most historians" by the way? Can anyone list them? Once again WikiPedia demonstrates why it doesn't represent a reliable source, prohibited from colleges and academia in general. "Keep it up".

Hello! Welcome to Wikpedia. Making ad hominem attacks on my person does not strengthen your argument. Me being Peruvian does not prohibit my contributions to this article as long as they are reliably sourced. Regarding the "most historians" claim, this is something taken directly from the source cited. If you have reliable sources which can back up your claim, please feel free to present them. Wikipedia, as most encyclopedias, are generally not considered acceptable "sources" for papers in Academia, but they do serve a good purpose for reference. Best of wishes.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 19:30, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Consider what I stated as an attack reveals your own personal opinion not the truth. However it is clearly evident that your contribution is a complete sophism. Perhaps the only thing you got right is the initial statement "according to some historic sources from Peru", the rest is very derivative and opened to interpretation. Ceviche does not have an exclusive origin from Peru and even if it is showed that it had an "early version" among the Moche civilization which dates back before Peru even came into existence it is logical to think that the first so called "ceviche" could have been incredibly similar to any other type of food found in other places. It is just common sense. Common people might be deceived by this article but more serious thinkers will find these rebuttals valid. Hopefully this will save some chauvinists the embarrassment.

Ceviche originated in Peru with the Moors. It's impossible for a plate to have originated at different places with the same name. Just because the plate has a Peruvian origin does not mean that the plate is exclusive to Peru. This is what seems to be your problem: you associate origin with exclusivity, but that is not the case. Reliable sources demonstrate that the origin of the plate is Peruvian.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 19:47, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

As a simple example: Modern football originates in England, but that does not make football exclusively English. Everyone can play football, and all countries have their style of play. When we talk about Brazilian football, we don't say that Brazilians play English football. Similar, when we talk about Mexican Ceviche, we are not talking about Mexicans eating Peruvian Ceviche. However, in both cases the origin is single: Modern Football in England, and Ceviche in Peru. There is no reason to deny an invention from its place of origin just because others have made it their own version and style, just as there is no reason to claim that Ecuadorian or Mexican Ceviche are Peruvian. Origin does not signify exclusivity (unless a patent is involved, which is not the case with this international dish).--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 21:19, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

I'm sorry but writing extensively does not make your opinion a fact. The amount of documentation that convincingly PROVES that Modern Football had its origin in England cannot compare to the poor documentation that tries to prove that Ceviche had its origin in Peru. Again you commit a sophism. The rest is just a lot of verbosity, nothing more. It is not only exclusivity but origin and your story fails to prove both. (unsigned comments by 72.225.138.219

Football is a US invention, you're confusing it with soccer. Nationalistic pride gets in the way, and thus we follow sources. What do they say? 00:23, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

This is not about nationalistic pride. The key issue here is confusing origin with exclusivity. Exclusivity is achieved either through patents or through domination of the production of a product. Ceviche is neither patented by nor exclusive to any single country. However, that does not mean the origin of the plate is a mystery, or that it should be "contested". It is illogical to claim that Ceviche originated simultaneously (with the same name) at different places; the original plate has to have originated at one place only. I have gathered the following sources (many recent) which state that Ceviche originated in Peru:

1. Daniel Hoyer and Marty Snortum, Culinary Mexico: Authentic Recipes and Traditions (Gibbs Smith, 2011), 59: "Reportedly originating in Peru, ceviche is served throughout Latin America in many forms".
2. The World and its peoples: Mexico (Greystone Press, 1968), 99: "Now found on both the Pacific and Gulf coasts of Mexico, ceviche originated in Peru".
3. Kate McGhie, Cook: recipes, stories & kitchen wisdom (Hardie Grant Publishing, 2006), 153: "Ceviche (also called cebiche or seviche) was thought to have originated in Peru where raw fish was eaten with dried chillies and local herbs. The Spanish added citrus and other seasonings".

1. Mark Ainsworth and Culinary Institute of America, Fish and Seafood: Identification, Fabrication, Utilization (Cengage Learning, 2009), 249: "Thought to have originated in Peru, ceviche is a dish or technique used for marinating and denaturing seafood. Its name is possibly derived from the Spanish word escabeche meaning 'to marinate or pickle in vinegar'."
2. Velda Largen and Deborah Bence, Guide to Good Food (Goodheart-Willcox Co., 2000), 516-517: "Although it is Peruvian in origin, ceviche is enjoyed by people throughout South America".
3. Raymond A. Sokolov, The Cook's Canon: 101 Classic Recipes Everyone Should Know (HarperCollins, 2003), 31: "Ceviche is popular in Mexico. But the most elaborate ceviche cuisine is Peruvian. [...] It would seem probable, given its omnipresence and high state of development there, that ceviche originated in Peru and spread to Mexico during the early days of Spanish colonization in the New World".
4. Kathleen Dunning Fisher, Mexican cooking: classic dishes, regional specialities, and Tex-Mex favorites (Grosset & Dunlap, 1976), 15: "It is thought that cebiche originated with the ancient fishermen of Peru".
5. Maeve O'Meara, Food Safari: Glorious Adventures Through a World of Cuisines (Hardie Grant Publishing, 2011), 216: "Most South American countries now have their own version of ceviche but it's thought to be Peruvian in origin.
6. Joanne Smith, Cuisine, Texas: a multiethnic feast (University of Texas Press, 1995), 105: "Most Texans associate the marinated white fish called ceviche with Mexico, but the New World delicacy had its origin in the land of the Incas. Althought Peruvians never migrated from the Andes to Texas, indigenous corn and potatoes and other foods moved with various South American tribes in the direction of Mexico. Conceivably, the Peruvian way with fish followed the same path".
7. Thelma Barer-Stein, You eat what you are: people, culture and food traditions (Firefly Books, 1999), : "Ceviche: strips of raw fish marinated in lime juice and lemon juice with chilies, onions, and garlic. The flesh of the fish loses its translucency and turns white as if cooked. Delicious as an appetizer. Of ancient Peruvian origin".

The funny thing is that none of these sources are Peruvian. Based on these sources, which all support Peru in some way or another, the article should give proper weight to the origin of the plate in Peru. That is, unless equally strong evidence is provided to challenge these sources.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 15:41, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Other source do contest that origin, and some of the sources you've presented waffle (thought, probable, etc). How many of these sources are food anthropologists? Cooks and food writers are not experts in food origins and we shouldn't rely on cookbooks and the like. And no, the original plate does not have to have originated in one place only--the opposite is more likely true, as ceviche is ultimately a pickling technique, and most culture have those. Any areas with acidic fruit and access to fish would have likely come up with some variant, and it is very unlikely that what the ancient peruvians ate was similar to what we call cerviche today. --Nuujinn (talk) 21:48, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

I completely agree with you Nuujinn. And you can notice how this author is slowly committing a lot of errors. For example he asserts the following: "Ceviche today is a multinational plate with different styles and varieties, but that does not take out its origin in Peru (Viceroyalty of Peru being the political entity at the time)". Apparently he does not seem to acknowledge that the Viceroyalty of Peru is not the same as Independent Peru, since the Viceroyalty of Peru was a Spanish colonial administrative district, NOT INDEPENDENT from Spain. So he is in fact claiming that Ceviche had its origin in modern day:

1. Argentina 2. Bolivia 3. Brazil 4. Chile 5. Colombia 6. Ecuador 7. Paraguay 8. Peru 9. Uruguay

So even if it is proven (which has not happened yet but let's just assume for a second) that the exact location where ceviche was first pronounced was in modern day Peru that would not matter because the origin still belongs to the conglomerate of Argentina, Bolivia, Brazil, Chile, Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Peru and Uruguay. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.225.138.219 (talk) 02:33, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

It's impossible for the same dish with the name Ceviche to have originated at different places simultaneously. We can go all the way back to ancient Greece to find pickling techniques, but they did not call their plate ceviche. The dish is Peruvian in origin, and that cannot be denied. Just like the "Big Mac" originated in McDonald's regardless of all other previous versions of the Hamburger; the difference being that while "Big Mac" is a trademark, Ceviche is not.

Ceviche today is a multinational plate with different styles and varieties, but that does not take out its origin in Peru (Viceroyalty of Peru being the political entity at the time). The theory of the Amerindians making the dish exists, but the one that makes most sense is that of the Moors mixing their cuisine with the locals during colonial times.

The point here is to present reliable sources which support the claim being made, and I have provided these as the Wikipedia rules demand. All this IP address has done so far is insult both me and the project. How many sources has this IP address provided to support his position? Per WP:WEIGHT, the majority of authors support the Peruvian invention over the other theories. That is what should be presented.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 00:20, 16 October 2011 (UTC)

The dish is Peruvian in origin, and that cannot be denied. And yet, we have sources that appear to be just as reliable as the ones you present which do throw that statement into question. If I throw thin slices of raw fish on rice and call it "spätzle", I've invented nothing, it's still sashimi. As you note, the Big Mac is a trademark, and I do not believe any one or any country holds a trademark on ceviche. We say in the article that the dish probably originated in Peru, but we mention other theories of origin, per WP:DUE. If you want to make wording suggestions, fine. If you want to say that the majority of sources say it originated in Peru, you need a source for that. And if you have a problem with how the IP is treating you, find an appropriate venue to bring that up--this isn't the right place for that. --Nuujinn (talk) 09:32, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

1. How many sources do you have that "throw that statement into question"?
2. At no point am I suggesting to remove the other theories.
3. Per WP:WEIGHT, the majority of reliable sources support the Peruvian position.

If you do not bring sources to support your position and thereby demonstrate your conclusion is correct, you cannot challenge the Peruvian position.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 20:50, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

None of these sources convincingly prove through the use of verifiable EVIDENCE that Ceviche had its origin in Peru. Some of them rephrase or cite what others have stated. In fact one of your sources tries to be more honest by stating "Thought to have originated in Peru...". The assertion that ceviche had its origin in Peru is not a fact, unfortunately, but more a speculation or personal opinion. (unsigned comment from 72.225.138.219)

Moorish Legend

The Moorish Women story is clearly legend. The source cited even has a title that says Leyends and Myths en Peruvian Gastronomy or in Spanish: "Leyenda y Folklore en la Gastronomía Peruana" The Peschiera book is a cookbook and cites no sources, simply presenting the ceviche myth as an introduction to the recipe.

From the numerous edits by MarshalN20 about Peru related articles, it is obvious that, like many Peruvians, he is nationalistic and is attempting to "promote" his country. Having lived in Peru for ten years, I can tell you from first hand experience that most Peruvian books cite sources erroneously and often attempt to distort the facts to make their country look better. They do this knowing that very few Peruvians will have access to books to double check their references as libraries do not lend out books here in Peru.190.236.169.240 (talk) 00:00, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's not attack other editors or disparage their nationality. However i will grant that one thing that has become abundantly clear over time is that nobody knows for sure where or when ceviche first came about. Kind of like the Italians and the Chinese endlessly debating who invented the noodle. To an outsider I have to tell you it all adds up to a lot of "who cares" since each nationality has a different take on it anyway they all have a valid claim on inventing one form of it or another. Where I live in Alaska we make it with halibut and Anaheim or jalapeno peppers with lime juice, and it is often left to marinate overnight instead of just a few minutes or hours. Probably not the most original recipe but who cares as long as it tastes good? Maybe this attitude comes from living in a country where we have integrated elements of dozens of different cultures into our own, I don't know. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:23, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Re:IP,190.236.169.240 Let it first be stated that MarshalN20 is a professional historian. Next, your position that the "Moorish women story" is a legend is purely original research that holds no grounds either on Wikipedia or on actual Academia. Two sources cite the information being presented, with the Peschiera source explicitly stating that there is a consensus among historians that it Moorish women were the original creators of the plate.

In regards to your comments about my person and Peru, I consider them to be personal insults and without any substantial evidence or relevance to this article. Please refrain from such comments or face the consequences of your bad actions. All the best.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 00:24, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Let's please keep it civil all around. Beeblebrox is, I think, correct, and my guess is that pickled raw fish was pretty common. In North Carolina I started making it with catfish, garlic and cayenne with lime juice for 3-4 hours in a cooler in the car. We can certainly improve the sourcing, though, and I would suggest that the IP consider making an account and helping us out with this. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:28, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

That made me hungry. I'm from Ohio originally, haven't had catfish for years, you can't get it fresh up here. Crawfish either. Beeblebrox (talk) 00:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Sorry to hear that, but you can take consolation in the better salmon you get there, or so I hear. Last batch I made was salmon and tuna

I do sincerely hope we do not have an edit war brewing here, I suggest that folks slow down a bit and let's take one item at a time. --Nuujinn (talk) 00:39, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Peruvians are still bitter about the Spanish influence over their culture, food and language. Whatever evil they did do, the Spanish were masterminds in imposing their religion, culture and language on others. In order to avoid giving the Spanish any credit Peruvians automatically give credit to "Moors" which is absolutely absurb and ridiculous as there were never any Moors permitted in Spain's colonies and if they happened to land by some odd chance they were quickly dealt with by the Spanish Inquisition authorities.190.236.169.240 (talk) 00:40, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

190.236.169.240, whether that might be true or not, its not really relevant here. We should concern ourselves only with what reliable sources say, please see WP:RS, if you'd like to discuss the reliability of a given source, we can do so, but not against a background of nationalistic concerns. I cannot gauge your level of expertise here, so please forgive me if you are already familiar with policy.

Now I'm thinking crawfish etouffé --Nuujinn (talk) 00:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

My understanding is that the IP considers the source "The Fascinating History of Cebiche" to somehow demonstrate that the information is a "myth." The only mention of the word "myth" or "legend" in the source come from a name at the top of the page (which is not the name of the article). The article itself provides exact names of the people being cited. We could go look for the exact sources based on the information provided on the article; however, the article itself is not unreliable. It would be a waste of everyone's time, but if the IP is willing to do such a search then he is quite welcome to do so.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 01:02, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

To be more exact (and to show the verifiability of the source), the name at the top of the article is that of a series by the Institute of the Andes; the article is written by a historian from that institute.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 01:10, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I cited two sources that clearly stated that Moors were not allowed into any of Spain´s colonies. You choose to call this "original research" which is absurd. It is obivious you don´t care about the truth. Here is one of numerous sources available on Google Books: http://books.google.com/books?id=ombFxoqh1NQC&pg=PA170&dq=moros+peru+Inquisici%C3%B3n&hl=en&ei=qhJGTamDHoKSgQfZjqn_AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=false

Censura, libros e inquisición en el Perú colonial, 1570-1754

By Pedro Guibovich Pérez; Universidad De Sevilla (June 30, 2003) Page 170

It clearly states even descendants of Moors and Jews who had converted to Christianity were forbidden to enter Peru. It is clearly evident that if descendants of Moors who converted to Christianity and pretended to be Spanish were denied entry, that the Moors themselves were also as stated in my previous citations which have the pertinent Spanish laws. I could probably find them on Google Books but I have better things to do then talk to someone who will refused to believe books used and well known by all historians of Peruvian colonial history.190.236.169.240 (talk) 01:57, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

The sources you provide are out of context in this article. You are coming to your own personal conclusions based on the information provided by the sources, and that constitutes original research. I am not denying the existence of Spanish laws that prohibited the entrance of Moors and Jews into Peru; however, those sources mention nothing of the origin of cebiche.

While on the subject of immigration and laws, let us simply take an example on places such as France, Italy, Spain, and the United States. There are plenty of immigrants in those countries that technically should not be in there (they are not allowed by the laws of these countries). Yet, that does not mean we can conclude that these immigrants never existed. A similar situation takes place with your sources regarding Spanish law prohibiting Moorish and Jewish immigration. Obviously, if reliable sources present information that states that Moors in Peru were the "creators" of the plate later known as cebiche, then that means the Spanish laws you present were not any more effective than the immigration laws in place in the 21st century.

All the best.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk

Let's take this one step at a time. 190.236.169.240, MarshalN20 is correct that we are not allowed to combine information from disparate sources to reach conclusions, so reliable sources that assert that moors were not allowed in Peru or elsewhere are not relevant here, unless they mention ceviche. Please see WP:SYNTH, and feel free to ask questions here or my or Beebelbrox's talk page. Now, in regard to this passage:

• Nevertheless, most historians agree that ceviche originated during colonial times in the area of present-day Peru.[1][14] They propose that the predecessor to the plate was brought to Peru by Moorish women from Granada who accompanied the Spaniards, and this dish eventually evolved into what nowadays is considered ceviche.[14][25] Peruvian chef Gastón Acurio further explains that the dominant position that Lima held through four centuries as the capital of the Viceroyalty of Peru allowed for popular plates such as ceviche to be brought to other Spanish colonies in the region, and that in time they became a part of local cuisine by incorporating regional flavors and styles.[16]

I've looked at the sources to which I have access, and I do not believe they support the notion that most historians agree the Peru is the source. In particular the Great Ceviche Book uses the word "many" and notes that "others" disagree. I do not have access to Cocina Peruana, can someone provide a translation of the relevant passage? The web site here uses what I take to be the word "several" and points to alternate origins of the word "ceviche" and doesn't really treat the origin of the dish itself. I'm not sure how much weight to accord a source from a Chef, however distinguished, but can someone provide a translation of the relevant passage? --Nuujinn (talk) 01:24, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Cocina Peruana discusses various theories of invention, but specifies that "renown historians" support the Moorish proposal. The source from Historiacocina (which is the Institue of the Andes) is a secondary source, and it presents several origin theories (including the mention of specific historians). The source concludes with the following:

"Sea cualquiera la procedencia o la forma de llamarlo, lo cierto es que todos están de acuerdo que es un plato suculento, aromático, sabroso, chispeante, vigorizante y peruano."

"Whatever the origin or name, everyone [in reference to the mentioned historians/claims] agrees that the plate is tasty, spicy, [...] and Peruvian."

Both sources mention the Moorish claim.

What is your opinion?

Best regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 02:13, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Well, I would say I have no doubt that whatever it's origin, ceviche could be considered a peruvian dish. I would say as a parallel that fried chicken and BBQ are "southern dishes" (South Eastern US) although neither originated there. The key issue I'm concerned with is the use of the word "most", since I don't think we have support for that. I think "many" would be a better choice, and we should consider expanding the article with some of the alternate theories to be more complete. Does that seem reasonable? --Nuujinn (talk) 02:26, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

It certainly does seem reasonable. The problem with both "most" and "many" is that they may fall under the WP:PEACOCK situation. Perhaps, we could add strength to the sentence by writing "Juan José Vega, along with many other historians, agree that [...]". Vega is apparently one of the main investigators to the "Moorish origin proposal" of cebiche. I also agree that expanding the article with more alternate theories would improve it. We can also be more specific in regards to the Moorish proposal, because the Institute of the Andes source further explains that the Moors came to Peru with Francisco Pizarro as prisoners of war from Granada.

In regards to the origin, based on the sources Peru still stands out as the most prominent location of origin. However, I do not know in what scale it measures up according to WP:WEIGHT. All the best.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 03:08, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

False

Ceviche is not a dish native only Mexico o Peru.In the Pacific Coast every country different forms of ceviches.Indigenous in Mexico (Seris,Totorames,Guasaves) etc.Mochicas en Peru,Caribes in Venezuela having eaten for centuries ceviche,shrimp,fish,octopus etc.None know of the limon,oranges o lime.

According the sources, historians do not attribute the origin of cebiche to the indigenous people of the Americas. The plate is attributed as an evolution of Moorish cuisine in Peru (within Peruvian borders). The Moorish women came accompanying the conquistadores with Francisco Pizarro. As you mention, the natives already ate marinated fish. I would guess that this native plate influenced the Moorish plate (but that's just my guess, which is not in the article of course). However, what is sourced is that the Moorish plate eventually became what is now known as cebiche. Best regards, and hope that cleared up some of your doubts.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 23:22, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

¿Moorish?.¿Only in Peru Moorish?.In almost all America.CEVICHE PERUVIAN IS NOT SAME MEXICAN.CEVICHE MEXICAN IS NOT SAME PERUVIAN. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.166.36.159 (talk) 21:06, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I understand your point, please calm down. There exists a variety of different forms of ceviche nowadays. Even the ceviche of Ecuador is different from the one in Peru. Nobody is denying that Mexico has its own style of ceviche. However, the source clearly states that ceviche is not a dish native to Mexico. According to the source, the Moors (from Granada) came to Peru when Francisco Pizarro governed the area. At this time the place was called Nueva Castilla, and this colony is what eventually (under the Spanish crown) became the center of the Viceroyalty of Peru (Lima). The Moorish cuisine (not the Native American cuisine) is attributed as the antecedent of the ceviche. It just happens that the cuisine evolved within present-day Peruvian borders. I hope this clears it up. All the best.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 00:45, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

Source falsification

The following two edits are falsifying sources:

• [1]
• [2]

These come from similar IP addresses, such as 201.166.46.116. If anymore of these (or other) source falsification edits are found, please list them here. Falsifying sources is not only bad for the Wikipedia project, but it also discredits the editor (or editors) making them. Best regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 05:39, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

Mexico is not part of Central America

I edited this:

In Mexico and other parts of Central America, it is served in cocktail cups with tostadas, or as a tostada topping and taco filling.

To read:

In Mexico and Central America, it is served in cocktail cups with tostadas, or as a tostada topping and taco filling.

Amendezg (talk) 19:37, 5 April 2012 (UTC)

Origin

Right now the article has a two somewhat contraditory statemens: in the text it says thet the origin is disputed but that the most likely origin is Peru, bt in the infobox it says outrght that Peru is the place of origin. Unless it can be shown that an academic consensus considers Peru the place of origin the infobox should state that its unknown or disputed.Chiton (talk) 00:25, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

I recall the version I wrote for the article had the infobox information as "disputed (see text)". It seems the information has been changing overtime. I plan to make a sandbox of this article and begin its improvement there (akin to the Pisco Sour article). Would you like to work in it with me? Regards.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 01:40, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Of course, tell the place of the sandbox. —Chiton (talk) 17:36, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the name

Too much technicalities for an outsider to step in and change, so I put it here: If the dish exists in Latin America, and can be spelled ceviche/cebiche there, the American Spanish pronunciation [se̞β̞itʃe̞] should also be given. If it's always spelled seviche in America, that difference should be mentioned. 83.253.228.202 (talk) 20:50, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Ceviche seems to be the most common spelling universally. However, the real issue here is that this food is a Latin American food. So why is the Peninsular Spanish pronunciation given as the primary one? 174.52.210.196 (talk) 05:47, 10 September 2012 (UTC)