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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Ditc (talk | contribs) at 05:19, 24 September 2013. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Former good article nomineeRumi was a good articles nominee, but did not meet the good article criteria at the time. There may be suggestions below for improving the article. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake.
Article milestones
DateProcessResult
March 19, 2006Peer reviewReviewed
August 11, 2006WikiProject peer reviewReviewed
April 17, 2007Good article nomineeNot listed
Current status: Former good article nominee

Template:WP1.0


Edit request on 20 October 2012

77.168.82.205 (talk) 14:37, 20 October 2012 (UTC) Ok, this is really sad how Rumi's place of birth is placed as Tajekestan while it was indeed Balkh (that is located in Afghanistan)! Please correct this information. His ethnicity is NOT Persian either. Please stop spreading wrong knowledge![reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. A boat that can float! (watch me float!) 15:14, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article must be edited as soon as possible. 1. Rumi is from Balkh from Afghanistan. Balkh is NOT located in Tajikistan. It is located in the province of Mazar e Sharif in northern Afghanistan. Rumi never lived in Iran and not an Iranian either. In Mathnawi, Rumi himself describes his birthplace in Balkh. The article erroneously places Balkh both in Tajikistan and Afghanistan. 2. It is an abomination to see how Iranians would do whatever possible to rob the cultural heritage of Afghanistan for political purposes. War has destroyed Afghanistan. Its cultural heritage must be preserved. A good example to highlight the error would be to call Mozart a German and Beethoven an Austrian. Hafiz was from Iran. Rumi is from Afghanistan. Iranians and Afghans do share common culture. However, the Iranians have misunderstood the term "Afghan" and associate Afghans with Pashtoons. Wikipedia would only undermine its credibility if it allows false scholarship to propagate on its website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Farhadus (talk • contribs) 14:59, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Tajiks and Persian admirers still prefer to call Jalaluddin 'Balkhi' because his family lived in Balkh, current day in Afghanistan before migrating westward. However, their home was not in the actual city of Balkh, since the mid-eighth century a center of Muslim culture in (Greater) Khorasan (Iran and Central Asia). Rather, as the Swiss scholar Fritz Meier has shown, it was in the small town of Wakhsh north of the Oxus that Baha'uddin Walad, Jalaluddin's father, lived and worked as a jurist and preacher with mystical inclinations. -- Franklin Lewis, Rumi Past and Present, East and West: The Life, Teachings, and Poetry of Jalâl al-Din Rumi, 2000, pp. 47–49. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:58, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request on 26 October 2012

There appears to be a typo that needs correcting. Section 4.2 'Prose Works' Fihi MaFihi just at the end of the last paragraph "and lack the sophisticated world play" should be "and lack the sophisticated word play" Heywood123 (talk) 15:55, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

 Done And "wordplay", in the singular, is usually one word. For the record, the wording of that passage may be uncomfortably close to that of the cited source. I don't believe the similarity rises to the level of close paraphrase, but ideally it would be rewritten. Rivertorch (talk) 23:15, 26 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

A request to correct a misunderstanding. My Master Mewlānā was NOT persian.

Hello. I'm a direct descendant of my master, on maternal side. First of all, let me put forward that, His holiness is an example and a light for all humanity. Now I feel a deep sorrow after reading this article. My master, and humble I, are Turk. I see there are some sources that point the other way. But there are more sources on this issue, which point that His holiness was a Turkish man, born to native Turkish speaking parents. I think the most reliable source is him, and he states that. "Although I've written in Persian, myself is turkish". And to clarify the issue on a deeper pattern, he've not only written in Persian language, but also in Turkish language. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.174.156.142 (talk) 11:23, 8 January 2013 (UTC) Rumi has no such verse..rather he is comparing Hindu and Turkish (not Persian). Please see here: [1]. His son clearly states he does not know Greek and Turkish well, which means RUmi was not Turkish. Also Rumi has only about 50 or so Greek and Turkish verses majority intermixed with his 60,000 Persian verses. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vortexion (talk • contribs) 20:45, 14 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to this i wanna add this article: http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/default.aspx?pageid=438&n=nationalizing-mevlanas-identity-is-wrong-turkish-academician-said-2011-02-22

In turkish page of Mevlana: There is no detail about his nation but in english it seems persian. Please solve this problem and read the up-article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Serdarekrem (talk • contribs) 20:02, 22 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The ips that come here usually repeat and never read the archive or other pages here:[2]. Its either some verses which they try to intrepret(Hindu/Tork dichotomy and has its counter-example where RUmi says he is not a Turk which they ignore and all of them not understanding basic Persian poetic imagery of Hindu, Rum, Turk, Zang -see previous link) or claim that "Persian was just the language of literature" (ignoring the everyday lectures, sermons, recorded conversations (e.g. Manaqib) and colloquial style of Rumi which is everyday spoken Persian while he has no lectures, sermons etc. in say Turkish or Greek) or ignoring explicit statements from Rumi's son that his (Sultan Walad)'s knowledge of Greek/Turkish per his won admission was not great and on par with his Persian (and even Arabic).  :[3]
Wikipedia follows Western specialist scholars [4]. Currently, Prof. Franklin Lewis book is the most important authoritative biography of the poet in any language by any living scholar (one needs to do google scholar search and see the many reviews). Specialist to be defined is one that has written scholarly books/articles on Rumi, and knows the original language (Persian) and is affiliated with a major university. So even if Rumi was say African (which he wasn't), Wikipedia just maintains WP:RS and WP:UNDUE based on concensus of sources and scholarship in the field. If they had say African, then it would be that (even if he wasn't). Of course I think there is good reason why he is mentioned Persian (one is being born in Wakhsh in Tajikistan), and the other is that his lectures, sermons and everyday speeches are recorded in Persian, and perhaps another good one is that his son (Sultan Walad) despite living in Anatolia did not know Turkish and Greek too well per his own admission(and RS sources) [5]. Perhaps another reason is this quote: God created the group of Turks so that they would destroy every building they saw, mercilessly and ruthlessly, and cause it to be demolished. (Shams al-Din Aflaki, "The feats of the knowers of God: Manāqeb al-ʻārefīn", translated by John O'Kane, Brill, 2002. pg 503) or Rumi's take on Oghuz Turks in Masnavi.. Culturally, Modern Persian and Turks are close..but to connect to Rumi one still needs the language as poetry is tied to a language.
There are sources specifically stating he is considered Persian in the West which is what WP:RS requires and per this Turkish scholar: No account seems to have been taken of the Turkish and Afghan claims. [6]. And by "account" we mean real WP:RS Rumi scholar account. We need to be fair and represent viewpoints based on top scholarly WP:RS sources (scholars who are serious university affiliates, know the language of Rumi and have written books/articles about him in prestigious journals e.g. Meier, Franklin, Encyclopeadia of Islam..). Perhaps 50 years from now, new evidence emerges that he was African and opinions changes and etc. But till then, what is the majority and mainstream is just reflected in Wikipedia (and it is not a debate club).. --Vortexion (talk) 12:48, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Pan-Turks only thing he is Turkish because he was born in the Seljuk Empire. You couldn't be more false. According to you, if an Indian was born during the British Imperium in India, he was considered a British man? Get real! LouisAragon (talk) 19:10, 6 April 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I bet you dont know anything about Turkic history then, the place where Rumi was born (Balkh, Khorasan) was inhabited by Turkmen tribes at the time, there are still a lot of Turkmens living in Iran and Afghanistan, all Persians right? Get real! Rumi wasnt born in Vakhsh, this whole article is infected with Persian propaganda just to cover Rumi his real ethnicity, pathetic Redman19 (talk) 17:26, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Its funny how Iran tries to claim Rumi while he spent most of his life on Turkish soil and also died there, you have no right, never will either Redman19 (talk) 17:36, 8 July 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The Turkish people deserve better representatives than you. Instead of acting like a child on a wikipedia talk page, why don't you try engaging in an intellectual conversation/debate for once? The editors have paid you and others like you the respect and courtesy you deserve by reading your arguments (which amount to sheer ignorance in my opinion) and responding to them by offering counter examples. It is obvious you are not interested in finding out the truth. You are only looking to stroke yourself and your nationalistic ego by throwing out childish comments like "oh you're all so wrong, we don't even need to offer any counter arguments because the truth is so obvious to anyone who is familiar with his Holiness." Poor Rumi. Sure he wouldn't like his nationality to be such a controversial issue but how would he feel about some of these idiots who understand so little but act as if they are so well informed?

Balkh / Wakhsh - difference between Balkh province and Balkh city

  • Per serious Rumi scholars (Franklin, Schimmel and Meier) who meet the highest WP:RS, Rumi was born in Wakhsh which was part of the larger province of Balkh.
  • Currently, the only detailed and up to date full biography of Rumi in any language by a living specialist scholar is the work of Prof. Franklin Lewis that has been translated to many languages.
    • Rumi: Past and Present, East and West. The Life Teachings and Poetry of Jalâl al-Din Rumi. Foreword by Julie Meisami (Oxford: One World Publications, 2000), xvii+686pp. Reprints 2001, 2003. Revised expanded edition, 2007. Awards: British Society for Middle Eastern Studies, British-Kuwaiti Friendship Society for the Best Book in Middle Eastern Studies published in the UK in 2000; Encyclopædia Iranica Foundation, 2001; Saidi-Sirjani Award (Hon. Mention), Society of Iranian Studies, 2004.[7]
    • Book has been translated into several important languages.
  • Professor Lewis has devoted two pages of his book to the topic of Wakhsh, which he states has been identified with the medieval town of Lêwkand (or Lâvakand) or Sangtude, which is about 65 kilometers southeast of Dushanbe, the capital of present-day Tajikistan. He says it is on the east bank of the Vakhshâb river, a major tributary that joins the Amu Daryâ river (also called Jayhun, and named the Oxus by the Greeks). He further states: "Bahâ al-Din may have been born in Balkh, but at least between June 1204 and 1210 (Shavvâl 600 and 607), during which time Rumi was born, Bahâ al-Din resided in a house in Vakhsh (Bah 2:143 [= Bahâ' uddîn Walad's] book, "Ma`ârif."). Vakhsh, rather than Balkh was the permanent base of Bahâ al-Din and his family until Rumi was around five years old (mei 16–35) [= from a book in German by the scholar Fritz Meier--note inserted here]. At that time, in about the year 1212 (A.H. 608–609), the Valads moved to Samarqand (Fih 333; Mei 29–30, 36) [= reference to Rumi's "Discourses" and to Fritz Meier's book--note inserted here], leaving behind Baâ al-Din's mother, who must have been at least seventy-five years old."
  • So when sources talk about him being born in Balkh, they mean the province of Balkh which encompassed parts of modern day Afghanistan and Tajikistan. It is important to note that these scholars have evaludated both Balkh (city) and Vakhsh (city), and reach such a conclusion. In order to have an alternative theory, one needs sources that have evaluated both claims and ruled in favor Balkh (city) (not province). --Vortexion (talk) 12:44, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I should mention though that his father was according to this source from Balkh: Bahāʾ-e Walad followed the profession of preacher and mufti in Balḵ, adhering to the example of his ancestors[8]. But Balkh here could simply mean the wider province (which includes Wakhsh) rather than city of Balkh itself. --Vortexion (talk) 14:40, 23 January 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Most beautiful quatrain

Arguably, the most beautiful quatrain in the history of man is where Mevlana says;

"Conceived was I in a pearl's eye,

happy to lie there in the depths of the Ocean,

till, torn by the Hurricane force of life,

I was tossed and turned, thrown upon these shores

where I lay and stirred no more. "

I wish somebody would incorporate this into the article. The punctuation is mine and is from memory and is probably inaccurate. This comes from a book of English translation published before 1961 Unfortunately I do not remember the Author who said the same "Most beautiful ever written"


69.119.172.155 (talk) 16:16, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

It can't be incorporated until you find the source -- either the Divan or the Masnavi. In addition, it's best to have the Persian translation alongside. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.244.91 (talk) 07:44, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In addition, Rumi did not compose quatrains. Your poem is likely a selection or misattributed to Rumi — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.165.244.91 (talk) 07:50, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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