Talk:Mariah Carey

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Contradiction in article

A) "Following her graduation from high school, Carey's mother remarried, which ultimately prompted her to move out from their apartment." is contradicted by an early article that states 1) Carey moved out of the home days after high school graduation in 1987 2) Her mother remarried in 1988, a year after Mariah moved out. Thus, I deleted the line.

Sources:

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20106787,00.html

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/1992-01-23/news/9201230630_1_mariah-carey-financial-support-stepfather

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20112018,00.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mseames (talk • contribs) 03:27, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Chris Nickson book being used a source

Why is an obviously biased book like Nicxkson's being used as an acceptable source? The book has been criticized for being pro-Mariah and a "fans only" book. The book is complied on magazine articles, Nickson did not have access to Carey herself.

http://www.amazon.com/Mariah-Carey-Revisited-Unauthorized-Biography/dp/0312195125 Mseames (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 03:40, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Can anyone take this up and research? I'm afraid for the concerns pointed out. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 15:54, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree. People magazine is a reputable source. Per them here http://www.people.com/people/mariah_carey/biography her bday is 3 27 69. Since MC came out in 1990 People has had her bday as 3 27 69. They based this not just on the info given to them by Columbia Records but also off of MC's NY ID(they got it in the 90s before the US made all drivers license and state's ID information private). Both years of 1969 or 1970 need to be included here. Thanks. 71.191.244.33 (talk) 01:27, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Life and Career - Derivation of first name

The song from the musical, "Paint Your Wagon", is "They Call the Wind Maria". There is no "h" on the end of the name of the wind.114.78.168.138 (talk) 12:57, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

There is a variation because of its pronunciation. 'Muh-rye-uh' as opposed to 'Muh-ree-uh'. Teammm ^talk
_email 15:58, 28 March 2013 (UTC)

Picture

Can we change the picture? It's not very flattering and it's outdated. It isn't an accurate depiction of her current appearance. There are more recent ones that can be used, like this one. It was taken by one of her team members on her cell phone, so it should be okay to use legally, correct? http://fashionbombdaily.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/Get-the-Look-Mariah-Careys-Twitter-American-Idol-LWren-Scott-Red-Sleeveless-Dress.png

No. A picture needs to be there with a freely usable license at commons.wikimedia.org, or the author of the image needs to grant permission. Else it cannot be used. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:26, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, but it's just a picture taken on her cell phone....it's not some official, photo shoot picture.

Please refer to Wikimedia commons picture policy and non-free content criteria. That image is not free and belongs to Mariah. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 08:43, 21 June 2013 (UTC)

Birthyear disputed. Pls include BOTH 69 & 70

MC birthday is listed as 3 27 70 in the article. This is disputed. The current source is a bias book by a fan that speaks over glowingly of MC. Please correct the article to 1969 or 1970. I feel both need to be included here bc her birthyear is disputed. People magazine(published by very reputable/reliable TIME INC) is a reputable source. Per them here http://www.people.com/people/mariah_carey/biography her bday is 3 27 69. Since MC came out in 1990 People has had her bday as 3 27 69. They based this not just on the info given to them by Columbia Records but also off of MC's NY ID(they got it in the 90s before the US made all drivers license and state's ID information private). Both years of 1969 or 1970 need to be included here. Thanks. Thanks. 71.191.244.33 (talk) 01:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC) 71.191.244.33 (talk) 01:43, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

 Not done: People.com is incorrect on her birth year. The vast majority of published reliable sources, including recent ones celebrating her birthday and mentioning her age, have it correct as 1970. Teammm ^talk
_email 17:12, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

We cannot unilaterally declare a Time Inc. publication that specializes in celebrities and their biographies to be incorrect. People is a highly reliable source and can't simply be ignored or discounted. Likewise CBS News and the New York Daily News.--Tenebrae (talk) 18:19, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

See Talk:Mariah_Carey#Sources_for_March_27.2C_1970. Weigh those sources, including the Grammys, Rolling Stone, A+E, MTV, VH1 against People Magazine and any other source. I'm reverting the addition of 1969 and citing these strong sources. Teammm ^talk
_email 20:40, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Both editor have been on borderline WP:3RR on this. Either cease and continue discussing here else this page would be locked and you know how tolerant admins are about breaking 3RR. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 03:59, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Date has been restored with modern books and encyclopedia sources - cant use a synthesis of primary sources to change a date that can be seen all over by everyone. -- Moxy (talk) 21:44, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Album title confirmed

Mariah's new album is going to be called "The Art of Letting Go" as confirmed by Jermaine Dupri here: https://twitter.com/jermainedupri/status/346823703553777664 Can someone please include this in the subheadings as well as the title please? LullabyGirl (talk) 10:21, 18 June 2013 (UTC)LullabyGirl

Pier Dominguez source unreliable/self-published, should not be used

One piece of information in this article, pertaining to Carey's performance of "Vision of Love" having the most influence on singer Christina Aguilera, cites Christina Aguilera: A Star Is Made: The Unauthorized Biography by Pier Dominguez as a reference. While Dominguez appears now to be a doctoral student pursuing serious academic work, I am concerned about the reliability of this particular source (which was published when the author was 19 years old, before the bulk of his academic career had begun). For one thing, parts of its contents read like a fan publication (consider, for example, the following: "The fact that [Madonna] approached Christina instead of Britney for a contribution to her [The Next Best Thing] soundtrack says something about whom she really respects."). Works such as these are generally not considered reliable unless the specific cited material was itself from another reliable publication, such as a newspaper. A close examination of the bibliography to this work reveals that, while some sources cited are indeed reliable, a number of them are gossip media, Internet chatrooms, other unauthorized biographies (such as this particularly confidence-inspiring one) and the like. A newspaper review points out some of the work's factual inaccuracies and inconsistencies. Perhaps most concerning is that personal emails from Shelly Kearns, Aguilera's mother, are frequently cited as sources. However, The New York Times points out that Kearns dismissed the work; if this page, published earlier the same year, was NYT's source, then, even more troublingly, it appears the author did not even attempt to contact Kearns, despite repeatedly citing correspondence with her ("No, I've never heard of these people ... A true journalist who supposedly 'researched' something so well, you'd assume, would have tried to contact us at least once to ask questions..."). Additionally, it is perhaps worth noting that his only previous publication at this point had been released by Writer's Club Press, an author mill with no editorial oversight. This work is published by Colossus Books, which is owned by Amber Communications Group, Inc., which also allows authors to self-publish work for a fee via its Quality Press imprint ("a special service-book packaging imprint for authors who wanted to self-publish their books instead of waiting to gain an interest from mainstream publishers").

In light of these troubling facts and Wikipedia's policy on unreliable biographical information about living people ("Contentious material about living persons ... should be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. ... The burden of evidence for any edit on Wikipedia rests with the person who adds or restores material."), particularly the policy on self-published material ("Never use self-published sources ... unless written or published by the subject"), I recommend that the associated fact be deleted from this page, or that the citation be replaced with those from reliable works. I would remove it myself if I had access to the edit page for this article. 98.155.5.150 (talk) 01:55, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for this, will be verified. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 04:17, 29 June 2013 (UTC)

The Art Of Letting Go is not accurate.

Can we remove The Art Of Letting Go as her new album title? Mariah said last week at the taping of her performance for the Macy's Fourth Of July Spectacular that The Art Of Letting Go is NOT the album title and that it was weird that they decided to make that title go viral. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.55.52.9 (talk) 20:24, July 3, 2013

Source? GoingBatty (talk) 22:07, 4 July 2013 (UTC)

.........She said it at the taping of her performance for the Macy's Fourth of July Spectacular. I was there. She said it in between a take. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.55.52.9 (talk) 22:24, July 4, 2013‎

I'm not doubting that you were there and that you heard Carey say this. However, Wikipedia needs a reliable, published source before making the change. Your help in finding one would be appreciated. (Also, please sign your posts by ending them with ~~~~) Thanks! GoingBatty (talk) 13:37, 5 July 2013 (UTC)

Years Active???

The article says 1986 onwards, and it gives this link as a source. The link has nothing about when she started; it just shows a song that was used in an album released in 1989. Can anyone give clarification on that? I didn't remove the year, but I thought it was odd that the link was used as the source when it's irrelevant (or at least, it seems so). SKS (talk) 05:40, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

We cannot give her age without citation

Her birth year was given on this article as 1970, making her age 40, without the required citation. Major news outlets including the NY Daily News and CBS News (!) both give 41. Please see Derschowitz, Jessica. "Mariah Carey: I'm Pregnant", CBS News, October 28, 2010 9:40 AM and Everett, Cristina. "Mariah Carey is pregnant! Singer confirms she is expecting first child with husband Nick Cannon", Daily News, Thursday, October 28th 2010, 9:33 AM --Tenebrae (talk) 16:24, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

OK, I've found three WP:RS cites that give two different ages -- Daily News and CBS News above says she's 41,while AllMusic.com says she's 40. I've given all three sources and noted that "sources vary". --Tenebrae (talk) 16:52, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

People Magazie confirmed her age with birth records, school records, and NY state ID records. Please return her DOB to 3/27/69. Thanks. 69.140.66.37 (talk) 01:04, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

That's good. Can you give a cite and link for where People says that? We can't do anything with a verifying cite. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:16, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I just noticed that in the interim, someone changed "1969 or 1970 (sources vary)" to just "1970". I've changed it back to the "sources vary" version. Reliable sources running the gamut from AllMusic.com to CBS to the NY Daily News give different years. Without definitive proof one way or the other, changing it to either year is POV. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:27, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Without citation, someone wrote in an edit summary today that "Carey herself" claimed the younger age. First, that's primary source. Second, stars lie about their ages all the time. Third, where is the cite for that? It's not footnoted here. By Wikipedia definition, CBS News and the NY Daily news are highly reliable sources. You cannot simply ignore WP:RS third-party sources just because they disagree with your belief. I believe if we take this to WP:RfC that the majority of editors will confirm they are indeed WP:RS third-party sources. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:11, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

The problem here is you will find reliable third party sources for both years. Carey herself has done a very good job muddying the waters over this and is in no hurry to clarify. So I suspect that unless a reliable source can be bothered to do a in-depth investigation to uncover the truth, like it actually matters, we may never be able to settle the matter. Did People Magazine really do this? --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 20:32, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Whether People went through all that, I don't know. I do know that its Mariah Carey page here says: "Mariah Carey: Date of Birth March 27, 1969. Birth Place Huntington, N.Y." It's a Time Inc. publication and generally very good about these sorts of things.

I agree with you: We completely find reliable third party sources for both years, so I don't see how we can do anything but give both years and say "sources vary". --Tenebrae (talk) 21:24, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Her birthday just passed on March 27. Well, these sources note she was born in 1969. Here, here, and here. Also, it's funny how it varies even on Google: this source says she's 42, yet some others still say 41. Not sure. I don't think it's something that will be resolved anytime soon, but like I mentioned before, usually it is mandated that American teens attend high school until they are 18 years old: she graduated in 1987, so she must of been born in 1969. Currently, though, we still don't have anything so definite showing the exact birth year. Estheroliver (talk) 00:50, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

[1] Here is an interview promoting debut album where she says she recorded when she was 19 (1989) and the album came out when she was 20 (1990). It implies she was born in 1970. Unless she was lying about her age back then, but I don't understand why she would.

At around 2:30

Donnie Simpson: So you're album was released when you were 19?

Mariah Carey: Um... yeah, no, 20. I recorded when I was 19.

Donnie Simpson: Okay.

--PoppleGumBop (talk) 10:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

The twins' birth certificates have just been revealed here. These documents show the mother's birthyear to be 1970. Jjmcspooh (talk) 08:32, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

That page doesn't show any documents.

Also, the 1970 date is relying on a 1995 book that may be outdate. People, the New York Daily News and CBS all give 1969. We need to return to the "sources vary" version. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:45, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

As well, her own Long Island newspaper, Newsday, says [2] "Born in Huntington, raised in Greenlawn" — not born in Northport. That 1995 book being cited for the 1970 birthdate and for Northport appears to be just some quickie celebrity bio with questionable research. --Tenebrae (talk) 15:04, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

Sources for March 27, 1970

• 2013 A+E Networks Biography - confirms full birth date and location
• MTV Biography - confirms full birth date and location
• Yahoo! Movies Biography - confirms full birth date and location
• American Top 40 with Ryan Seacrest - confirms full birth date
• Grammy Awards 1991 - confirms 20 years old in February 1991
• The Rolling Stone Encyclopedia of Rock & Roll/Biography - "June 1993, Carey married Mottola, a man 20 years her senior." - confirms 23 years old in June 1993
• Mariah Carey's official website PLUS Associated Press - confirms 41 years old in April 2011
• Glamour Magazine - confirms 43 years old on March 27, 2013
• VH1 43rd Birthday Commemoration - confirms 43 years old in 2013
• Yahoo! Music - confirms 43 years old in April 2013
• E! Online - confirms 43 years old in May 2013
• Guardian Express - confirms 43 years old in July 2013
• New York Daily News at Picture #7 - details that Mariah's age is 43 years in July 2013 - as you can see, one of your sources has contradicted itself

All of these sources which are current and specialize in the music industry confirm her birth to be March 27, 1970. These should be given greater preference over errors in other sources. Teammm ^talk
_email 20:13, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

I see you used People Magazine article using the 1970 birth year. Problem is, I can list twice as many People articles that point to 1969, especially early ones.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20114312,00.html , 21 in January 1991

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20111705,00.html , 22, December 1991

http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20110666,00.html 24, July 1993

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20063435,00.html , 22, Summer 1991

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20135079,00.html , 32, August 2001

And best of all is the November 1993 COVER story listing her age as 24. 1993 - 24 = 1969. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.35.161.105 (talk) 00:51, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Also the People article you cited saying Mottola was "20 years her senior?" Mottola was born in 1949. Thus, 1969 - 1949 = 20 years.

Since there is not incontrovertible, absolute proof, either the birth year should be removed ::entirely or both included as done on other Wikipedia pages. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.35.161.105 (talk) 00:48, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Fine. I'm not going to argue or revert. However, as a journalist who realizes that celebrities have been known from time to time to lie about their age, I'm adding a footnote addressing the fact that People, Parade and others give a different date. I imagine you'll agree that we need to say something and not bury our heads in the sand and pretend these major magazines don't exist. --Tenebrae (talk) 22:38, 11 July 2013 (UTC)

• Mariah Carey early career interview in 1990 - (Video at 2:30) Mariah firsthand confirms she was 20 years old in June 1990

I don't agree due to the fact that Mariah herself and the vast majority of sources place her birth in 1970. It doesn't make sense to refer to a few outliers when Mariah herself has confirmed the other sources. Teammm ^talk
_email 02:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Actors, actresses and singers lie about their ages frequently. That's one reason we really on third-party sources and not primary sources.

I can tell you this: I've been a journalist for over 30 years, and your attempts at censoring a viewpoint you personally disagree with is irresponsible and makes my job and other journalists' jobs harder. Whoever you are — and I can tell you're not a journalist yourself — you cannot personally, unilaterally, declare that Time Inc., Parade, CBS News and other sources "don't count." We have a right to know that not all sources agree — that major, responsible news organizations give differing birthdates. To say that you, personally, refuse to even allow this in a footnote is pure WP:OWN.

So let's either bring this to mediation, do an RfC or find some other way of bringing in responsible additional parties. Because your fannish whitewashing of what major sources state — your refusal to even acknowledge these other major sources exist — is plainly wrong. Wikipedia is not censored — and censoring facts is exactly what you're doing. --Tenebrae (talk) 03:50, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and by the way, here is what Time Inc.'s People magazine itself has to say:

In response to fan inquiries about the correct date, a spokesperson of the magazine issued a statement, "we have a copy of Ms. Carey's driver's license, which lists her birthday as March 27, 1969. Furthermore, we spoke with the administrators at the high school she attended who confirmed that Ms. Carey's birthday is March 27, 1969, as did her management when we made our initial interview." [3]

So it looks like the 1970 date is wrong. People has a copy of her driver's license, and what's more, did all the additional research that a responsible news organization is supposed to do. Clearly, someone lied or misstated, 1970 wound up in Wikipedia, and lazy journalists have just copied each other.

People has a copy of her driver's license, confirmed 1969 with her high school administrators and even got it from her management. Contrary to your edit summary, that is not "unconfirmed." That's the very definition of confirmed. What do you say to all that? --Tenebrae (talk) 04:00, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Here's the Los Angeles Times, Sept. 25, 2009. LA Times music critic Ann Powers says Carey has "hit 40." http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/music_blog/2009/09/album-review-mariah-careys-memoirs-of-an-imperfect-angel.html --Tenebrae (talk) 04:19, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

Oh, and how about this: From 1987 to 1990, before someone decided to shave a year off her age, as entertainers often do, Mariah Carey and her representatives themselves registered a series of copyrights with the U.S. Copyright Office giving her birth year as 1969. See http://cocatalog.loc.gov/cgi-bin/Pwebrecon.cgi?SC=Author&SA=Carey%2C%20Mariah%2C%201969-&PID=fP0n-oYpX7ii4iuV_MwmYquOAL9I&BROWSE=1&HC=26&SID=3 . I ask again: Are you going to censor this? Are her own filings with the U.S. Copyright Office somehow unacceptable to you? --Tenebrae (talk) 04:15, 12 July 2013 (UTC)

It has been nearly a month with no reply to this. How is it possible to justify 1970 when Time Inc. specifically states it used her own driver's license, high-school records and even her management to verify her birth date? What do the "1970" sources use? They don't say -- because, clearly they can't. They didn't go to her driver's license or other records. (As well, we know she graduated high school in 1987, so it strains credulity to suggest she started her senior year at 16; no one does that unless they're double-promoted, which no one says happened with her.) --Tenebrae (talk) 20:14, 8 August 2013 (UTC)

Request for Comment: Birth Year

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Prominent, reliable sources give both 1969 and 1970 as birth years for Mariah Carey. How should this be addressed?

• Comment The only source for Mariah's Carey birth year that cites actual, physical documentation is Time Inc.'s People magazine, a highly reliable source, which says here:

"[W]e have a copy of Ms. Carey's driver's license, which lists her birthday as March 27, 1969. Furthermore, we spoke with the administrators at the high school she attended who confirmed that Ms. Carey's birthday is March 27, 1969, as did her management when we made our initial interview."

Carey herself, in her U.S. Copyright registration, also gives 1969 here.

Given that People obtained confirmation from the driver's license, from the her date in her high school records, as well as from her management, and that Carey herself at the beginning of her career said 1969, how can this documentation be considered insufficient? --Tenebrae (talk) 13:21, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I have restored the article to the stable version till your reverted change can be discussed. We have been through all this in 2009 - After the publication above (that did not provided any actual documents) Mariah told reporters ..... ‘Read my bio again. We can't allow these lies to spread,’. We have book after book after book that says 1970 and only one people magazine article that has been regurgitated only in the news realm that says 1969 - no modern bios think this is correct as recently added to the article . -- Moxy (talk) 15:32, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

That very article you're citing says she was born in 1969! And Wikiepdia is supposed to use secondary sources, not primary sources, since actors and actress like about their age. So we can acknowledge her denial, but we can't cite it.

Secondly, how can you argue against People having used her driver's license? Because they didn't post it? Are you seriously accusing Time Inc/'s People magazine of lying? Where you'll believe a 1970 a cut-and-paste quickie book that never spoke with her or cited documents? If you're going to demand that People post documents you have to demand that the 1970 cut-and-paste quickie book do as well.

Thirdly, the Los Angeles Times is certainly a reliable source. And it says [4] that in 1969, Carey has "hit 40." Even her hometown paper, Newsday, gives her age as 44, here. Also CBS News and Parade magazine. Those are hugely reliable sources with deep-pocketed research and fact-checking staffs. It is unconscionable to ignore them in order to burnish a celebrity's vanity.

Did Carey herself lie to the U.S. Copyright Office when she gave her birth year as 1969? Explain that, please--Tenebrae (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

I dont know what to say - people has never provided any of the documents they say they have seen (ever) As for copyright - what makes you believe she gave that date? We have so much on 1970 even the time of birth at 7:27 A.M. as per the interview at [www.mariahjournal.com/infozone/magazines/2006/rollingstone/index.shtml Rolling Stone on February 23, 2006]. It may be a good idea to mention that since 2006 her birth date has be a sources of contention - but we need to state that the majority of sources until 2006 and most bios and her since then say 1970 and that only a few sources that used primary documents say 1969. -- Moxy (talk) 15:38, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

I think you've indeed suggested a middle ground that might be a good compromise. I do, first, need to say that as a journalist and someone who's been in the publishing business for over 30 years that no major publication, and certainly not a Time Inc. magazine, would risk libel at the worst and its reputation and credibility at the least by deliberately making a major biographical claim that wasn't true. It beggars the imagination that People would lie and say it had confirmed the date on her driver's license and her high-school records when it did not. Why would you believe Rolling Stone but not People? What's the basis of that? How is one different from the other?

RE: "the majority of sources": The number is in no way the single deciding factor: Many sources since 2006 have taken the information off Wikipedia itself. The quality of the sources is equally important. People, CBS News, the Los Angeles Times, her hometown paper Newsday and other high-quality, hugely reliable sources say 1969.

But you're right: I think one thing we can all agree on is the undeniable fact that her birth date is a source of contention among major news outlets. And that's not anything extraordinary — their true age is an issue with many performers. Might I suggest a format like the one used at Demi Moore, which reached consensus after months of debate about her birth name being "Demi" or "Demetria." Given the very similar fact-pattern here, that might well save us months of debate. --Tenebrae (talk) 00:07, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

• Looks like just me and you here... lets see what we can do. Got a proposal for d=some text we can add? -- Moxy (talk) 23:37, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm thinking something like the name note in the opening sentence of Demi Moore, maybe?

BTW, I noticed on your user page when I was leaving a note on your talk page the other day that we're both on Wikipedia in the 7 1/2- to 8-year range, and both active enough to meet Master Editor requirements. That's pretty cool — I find it so much better to work with veterans who know the policies and guidelines and are just less frenetic and more open to collaboration than many newer editors ... not that I haven't worked with many perfectly good new editors, but you know what I mean. And I am really sorry we got off on the wrong foot. It happens, and I'm glad we've worked through it. --Tenebrae (talk) 23:31, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I do like that note at Demi Moore but like the layout {format) at Joan Crawford better as in you can see the publication right there without further mouse movement. -- Moxy (talk) 20:07, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I also like the format at Joan Crawford. If this case was treated that way, that would be a very satisfactory explanation of her birth year dispute. Teammm ^talk
_email 00:41, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Wow, that really is something at Joan Crawford! I hadn't seen that. Good call, Moxy! W might want to avoid the term "a minority of sources" since quality counts as much as quantity, and in any case it's more neutral to give raw facts and let readers decide. So how would we say this? "March 27, 1969 or 1970"? --Tenebrae (talk) 21:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Moxy and Teammm. Following the Joan Crawford example, then, how about something like this.

(born March 27, 1969 or 1970)

I added AllMusic.com to the 1970s quartet of cites, since I wanted to get a respected, easy referenced online source in there. Normally, we'd do this chronologically, giving the 1969 date first, but I figured it comes first in the prose so to give some balance, however subtle, I put 1970 first in the footnote. I also used bullets rather than the indents of Joan Crawford since I thought, in such tiny type, that bullets make it easier to read. What does everyone think?--Tenebrae (talk) 23:36, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

I just wanted to say Tenebrae and Moxy, kudos to you guys for this wonderful discussion on her birth year and taking the onus to come to a conclusion and consensus about it. Really appreciated. —Indian:BIO · ^{[ ChitChat ]} 05:02, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

I favour Tenebrae's suggestion of simply saying 1969 or 1970, and citing a selection of the best sources for both. I don't think we're likely to get a definite answer on it as Carey herself is happy to obscure things. Seems crazy to think it makes any real difference, but there you go. Personally I suspect 1969 is correct, comparing the sources and considering all likelihoods, but that's just my opinion and there nothing definite that proves either date. Admitting that upfront is being honest with the reader, and the surest way preventing a continual changing of the date. Maybe one day a reliable source will care enough to get a definitive answer that can't be discounted, but until then.... --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 08:49, 9 September 2013 (UTC)

•  Done - have added the above sources...lets see now that it is there is anyone else has a concern. Not to many of us here....so lets add it see if others are ok with the new addtion of a notes. -- Moxy (talk) 18:28, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

I just want to thank Moxy for all his efforts and hard work, and for finding just the right model to adapt. As I wrote on his talk page, we transcended differences to create something bigger than the sum of its parts. When Wikipedia works truly collaboratively like this, there are few better feelings for those of us who love and appreciate research. Hats off to him. --Tenebrae (talk) 21:46, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Addendum: I added a line space, but it's problematic: Without it, the popup footnote looked jumbled. But with it, the bottom-of-page footnote looks like it has an unnecessary extra line. Maybe someone better versed in coding could fix it so it looks alright in both places? --Tenebrae (talk) 21:49, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.