Talk:Richard Dawkins

Controversy section revisted

MikamiLovesDeleting has submitted a Controversy section, which was reverted by Dbrodbeck. I am starting a discussion here to invite Mikami to express his/her thoughts for why the section should be included. A look at previous discussions on this page suggests a prevalent opinion that the content should not be included, but if there are new thoughts, we should welcome them. Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:07, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

(Side note: If this is a common suggestion/request/complaint, and consensus has been well established against the section the numerous times this has come up before, then I think McGeddon's suggestion above is a sound one, that a FAQ be created or that the consensus stance be highlighted in the Resolved Issues template at the top of the page--and maybe with links to relevant archives?) Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:16, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Thank you Cyphoidbomb. Many comments Dawkins has made that are typically seen as controversial have generated enough attention to merit its own section. Much of his controversial remarks are often associated with his character and what he is best known for. His twitter controversy involving his remark about Muslims at least deserves notable mention because it has been brought to attention by various news outlets such as The Guardian, the Telegraph or Daily Mail MikamiLovesDeleting (talk) 20:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Hello @MikamiLovesDeleting: Can you please list those "Guardian, Telegraph, Daily Mail, etc" sources and proposed content/section here? Anupmehra -Let's talk! 21:01, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Certainly @Anupmehra:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2387635/Richard-Dawkins-embroiled-Twitter-row-controversial-comments.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/celebritynews/10232082/Professor-Richard-Dawkins-embroiled-in-Twitter-row-over-Muslim-comments.html

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/aug/08/richard-dawkins-twitter-row-muslims-cambridge

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/richard-dawkins-muslim-jibe-sparks-twitter-backlash-8753837.html

MikamiLovesDeleting (talk) 21:10, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

@Anupmehra: in regards to content for the article, I will admit that I copy-pasted from the new atheism article, but I felt that the controversy that was mounted on Dawkins offered a good starting point.

In August 2013, Richard Dawkins attracted criticism after Tweeting "All the world's Muslims have fewer Nobel Prizes than Trinity College, Cambridge. They did great things in the Middle Ages, though." Many responded with outrage, including political commentator Owen Jones, who replied "How dare you dress your bigotry up as atheism. You are now beyond an embarrassment." Dawkins said he singled out Muslims because "we so often hear boasts about (a) their total numbers and (b) their science.

MikamiLovesDeleting (talk) 21:24, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

We must not create a section that will primarily provide a platform for Dawkins haters to push their POV. I take a similar position for all articles on public figures who have enemies. HiLo48 (talk) 00:22, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

We can revise what I have proposed above. What I am simply arguing is that Dawkins is notable for drawing attention for controversial remarks and the attention just so happens to come in the form of critical remarks. Nowhere in the article do we have to state that these remarks are true, but these remarks exist whether or not we agree with them. If we wanted to aim for neutrality/objectivity we could write something along the lines of "Dawkins is known to have generated criticism from various remarks he has made." That's it. No hint of providing "a platform for haters." We are simply acknowledging the existence of these remarks, which are notable because of how often they circulate MikamiLovesDeleting (talk) 02:04, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Those remarks are usually more about the remarkers than about Dawkins. If they had articles, the comments could go there. HiLo48 (talk) 02:07, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree with HiLo completely on this one. Dbrodbeck (talk) 03:03, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

I agree as well. Twitter, especially Twitter back and forth chatter / debate, is not notable nor a reliable source in itself. Memills (talk) 23:43, 1 March 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the late comment. I've been busy doing nothing recently. Coming to the point, I'm simply not agree that Dawkins is notable for his alleged controversial remarks. If any person believe not including above proposed content makes Dawkins non-notable. Feel free to nominate it for deletion. Well, also partially agree that including proposed content would provide a platform for some people to push their POV and would somehow contribute to disrupt the WP:STRUCTURE of the article. Anupmehra -Let's talk! 12:24, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

[Abruptly opens door] Sorry to interrupt, guys, but I think that, regardless of how it is structured, the controversial things Dawkins has said (not just tweeted) and the reaction thereby provoked do deserve inclusion. For instance, Dawkins' statement that "When you think about how fantastically successful the Jewish lobby has been, though, in fact, they are less numerous I am told - religious Jews anyway - than atheists and [yet they] more or less monopolise American foreign policy as far as many people can see." [1] provoked a great deal of controversy. [2] [3] [4] Perhaps this should be worked into the "advocacy of atheism" section, since the reason he made the remark in the first place was to show that groups of religious people can gain influence, so atheists should be able to too. Jinkinson talk to me 01:28, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

Controversial things can be included in the article where appropriate, but a criticism section is walking the line of WP:NPOV and even if done carefully is still sloppy writing at best. If Dawkins did or said something, for example, involving his advocacy of atheism that met with a considerable amount of criticism that was reflected in reliable sources and warranted mentioning it in the article, it would go in the Advocacy of atheism section as appropriate, not in its own section with no context or balance. - Aoidh (talk) 01:34, 20 March 2014 (UTC)

In this case it would seem appropriate to give Dawkins a 'controversies' section as the controversies mentioned do not seem to fit neatly into existing parts of the biography. This most likely explains why his statements on Muslims and the Nobel prize, and 'the Jewish lobby' have been ignored so far - they aren't really examples of 'Advocacy of atheism'. Controversies sections are fairly common in wikipedia biographies, and have the useful function of gathering together random public pronouncements. After all James Watson has one and it is possible to include them while maintaining NPOV.

These statements form an important part of his representation in the media. Another example is from last week when it was alleged that Dawkins said fairytales had a negative influence on children, which he later went on to deny. Whatever the case, these episodes indicate that a) The press may misreport Dawkins b) The man may not always express himself very clearly when addressing the public c) Dawkins certainly believes the press misreport him. These are relevant to a man who has a complicated and contentious public persona and should form a part of his biography on Wikipedia.--Evenmadderjon (talk) 16:16, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I humbly disagree with your claim that a "Controversies" section could be added "while maintaining NPOV". The mere use of that heading negates the claim. We must not provide a stage on which his haters will gather and play. HiLo48 (talk) 21:08, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Hilo48, I understand it may be difficult to understand how an article can be neutral whilst including criticism of its subject. In fact, I would assert that it is one of the most common misunderstandings of the NPOV policy. An article may include fair, measured and balanced criticism of the subject where said criticism adds to the holistic quality and depth of the article. Failing to balance successes with criticisms/controversies tends to unreasonably pedestal the subject – such is ultra vires to the mission of Wikipedia. How can it be done? Very carefully. Might I suggest you use the search feature to search for the text “Controversies”. You will find numerous articles and BLPs that successfully include such sections without NPOV concerns. An exemplar of this being done would be the Enid Blyton article (rated as FA) which includes a section titled “Critical backlash”. This should be demonstrative of what is possible. Though I must admit I am finding your obsession with “Dawkins haters” to be unhelpful to the development of the article. Just because people may not agree with Dawkins or may otherwise find some of his remarks notably controversial – does not mean they are simply “Dawkins haters” who’s views should be disregarded. Such an assertion breaches WP:AGF. I hope that any further comments on this talk page are made with an open mind. Finally, I reject the notion that adding a controversies section would “provide a stage for Dawkins haters to play” – As the addition of such a section (and the content thereof) would still be subject to consensus and flagged revs.   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 17:50, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

POV tag

Reads more like a fan page and any controversial comments made by Dawkins which are added to the article are deleted. Therefore, the article is POV.Boone jenner (talk) 17:19, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Removed tag until you list what comments you want added to the article. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

There have been a lot of news items about Dawkins comments on Down Syndrome fetuses and what parent should do (abort them). I think we need a "criticisms of" section for Dawkins which could eventually become a full fledged article. There were also his comments about pedophilia which are notable because of the attention they received in numerous newspapers and media outlets. I would say we should at least acknowledge these controversial comments. Otherwise this is just a vanity article. I'm re-adding the POV tag. People have attempted to add these comments and have been struck down. I suspect it's because a lot of Wikipedians are also fans of Dawkins and don't want to see his name disparaged. That's definitely POV.Boone jenner (talk) 18:25, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Please read the archives of this page, this has been discussed to death. Dbrodbeck (talk) 18:35, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

I was just thinking "ah Dawkins has said another controversial thing, let's go to see wikipedia and see some of the others" and lo and behold, there is none. Most times he has made the news in the last few years it's because of something controversial he has said that the press has picked up on. I have read the above but still feel the article is missing out a great deal of the publicly-revealed character of the man. It seems odd to have a "awards & recognitions" section (containing purely positive words) without a corresponding negative section. Going by this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Criticism#Avoid_sections_and_articles_focusing_on_criticisms_or_controversies perhaps the section could be renamed "reception" and include both positive and negative interactions he has had with the public. I still don't understand what is so bad about having a controversy section when he has been involved in so many of them though. See Frankie Boyle's page for example, or Gene Simmons (the first two other peopel I could think of who have been involved in controversies). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.20.34.132 (talk) 23:14, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

Please remember that there is a wealth of difference between something that is controversial, and something that a tabloid newspaper source has reported as being controversial. WP, however, must remain neutral. As such, we decide if a 'criticism' is noteworthy or if it is not. Until such a time as Dawkins does something that we can unanimously determine as noteworthy, there is no requirement for a criticism section.Justin.Parallax (talk) 08:43, 21 August 2014 (UTC

Use of term "tabloid" by yourself and others is POV/incorrect, avoids the issue and is an ad hominem attack. Please be more constructive. You basically ignored almost everything I said. If you want more evidence of its controversialness/noteworthyness, how about the fact he has today issued an apology of sorts? [[5]] 86.20.34.132 (talk) 20:07, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

The POV tag definitely belongs if his comments on Down Syndrome are left out. I challenge anybody to find a British news outlet that hasn't reported it. 2.102.185.204 (talk) 05:35, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

This is a global encyclopaedia. I have no idea what he said. How about you report it here, with sourcing? HiLo48 (talk) 06:41, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, but the onus is on yourself to provide citations, not to 'challenge' others to do so. Also, as a Brit, you may need to be aware that you might have difficulty finding tabloid sources that are considered reputable. Justin.Parallax (talk) 08:43, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Apparently The Independent is a "tabloid" now. You can just smell the POV coming through on these comments by people who don't want any kind of 'controversies' section added. They're probably fanboys of Dawkins. For the record there are About 1,780 results on Google News for "Richard Dawkins down syndrome". I guess those are all "tabloids" too and untrustworthy? I would say 1780 news articles is definitely noteworthy. [6] Boone jenner (talk) 12:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Please attempt to retain and remember WP standards of civility as discussed at Wikipedia:Civility.Justin.Parallax (talk) 12:42, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

Justin, perhaps it would have been better to post this reminder on the user's talk page rather than here as it bears no relevance to the article in question. I would also note that asserting that the user wasn't even attempting to be civil is a violation of WP:AGF.   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 18:13, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

We should probably have an article on Social and political views of Richard Dawkins, given that he is such an opinionated figure. See this article for an example of what such an article would look like. Any criticism Dawkins has received over some of his opinions (such as on pedophilia, abortion, etc.) could go into that article. FiredanceThroughTheNight (talk) 13:50, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

The Guardian - http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/aug/21/richard-dawkins-immoral-not-to-abort-a-downs-syndrome-foetus

The Telegraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/11047072/Richard-Dawkins-immoral-to-allow-Downs-syndrome-babies-to-be-born.html

The Daily Mail - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730028/Atheist-author-Richard-Dawkins-says-foetuses-Downs-syndrome-aborted.html

Sky News - http://news.sky.com/story/1322290/richard-dawkins-sparks-downs-syndrome-row

The Independent - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/richard-dawkins-on-babies-with-down-syndrome-abort-it-and-try-again-it-would-be-immoral-to-bring-it-into-the-world-9681549.html

BBC News - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-ouch-28879659

2.102.185.204 (talk) 20:19, 21 August 2014 (UTC)

I support he needs criticism sections for his bigot comments.--Yacatisma (talk) 00:38, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

I don't. HiLo48 (talk) 00:46, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Right! Criticism sections are inferior to the practice of folding criticism into the biography as appropriate, either thematically or chronologically. And in any case we do not need a POV tag to uglify the article when the worst that can be said about the article is that it needs more text. Binksternet (talk) 01:54, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Despite being a strident atheist, a proud homosexual and a regular reader of Richard Dawkins published works; I cannot help but agree that there are many things that Richard Dawkins asserts which are notably controversial. Recent comments such are those made on the topics of Down Syndrome (suggesting it’s immoral not to abort) and Muslims (suggesting the last time they did any good was during the middle ages) ARE controversial and abrasive. It would be ignorant to suggest otherwise. The coverage in the media (a small fraction of which is already linked above) combined with Richard Dawkins’ published apologies (which in themselves suggest that he offended a significant number of people) should provide sufficient grounds for inclusion. A quick peruse on Google News reveals that Richard Dawkins has a track record of making controversial and or offensive assertions on his Twitter account – which is one of his primary methods of publishing (aside from his books and public speaking). I genuinely believe it would be a violation of NPOV not to include some mention of these more controversial assertions – as they part of who Richard Dawkins is. He is in the business of being controversial – and quite frankly all the more power to him. But, you cannot have a balanced article whilst completely ignoring his abrasive assertions in preference for the more palatable ones.   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 18:09, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

So write an article about the topic: Comments on the Internet that other people have found to be offensive. In a biography about the life and work of Dawkins, the fact that something he said about Downs Syndrome caused a passing storm has very little significance. An article at Wikipedia is not available as a coatrack where the views of very minor critics can be amplified—if someone has done significant work on rebutting claims made by Dawkins, put it in an article on the person making the rebuttal. Johnuniq (talk) 23:41, 26 August 2014 (UTC)

Oh come on, that statement tops the list for fanboy defence. Any public figure that receives significant controversy and criticism over a statement is going to get a mention of it in their article. It occurs on thousands of biographies on Wikipedia and you're arguing that Dawkins should be the exception. 2.102.185.204 (talk) 01:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The problem is this: what text would go in the article, and where? Would you seriously suggest saying that a bunch of twitter followers were upset with a tweet? Has anything happened as a result of the "controversy"? Has any notable peson (that is, someone with an article at Wikipedia) made a direct criticism of Dawkins regarding this incident? Johnuniq (talk) 02:08, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

The sources show there has been a response beyond Twitter followers. Also, that's not even a requirement. I see articles all the time that just mention statement X caused controversy. From what I've seen that's actually the norm and only sometimes will a criticism of the statement be noted. 2.102.185.204 (talk) 03:07, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia's rules are often poorly enforced. When several editors are in dispute, the rules come under the magnifying glass. What we must do here is use WP:SECONDARY sources to make certain that a Dawkins statement is important to his life and career. Binksternet (talk) 03:38, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

Some editors here tell me that Dawkins is often in the news for his controversial statements. Well, maybe he is in the UK, but not where I live. He is globally known for his academic work and his books. Local tabloid dramas obviously remain that, local. For a global article on an academic writer, those events are trivia. HiLo48 (talk) 04:25, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

It may help to define the use of the term "controversial" here. This would help to ensure that anything discussed is genuinely a cause of controversy, and not "something that someone said that others disagree with". That is the bedrock of establishing the basis of whether something can be considered to be controversial or not. So perhaps people who are arguing in favour of the inclusion of this could define it for us? Justin.Parallax (talk) 07:17, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

"Local tabloid dramas" - It isn't very local when a previous vice-presidential candidate of another country personally lambasts you for your remarks. I would also suggest that it isn't "local tabloid dramas" when the source of controversy was a written statement issued to in excess of a million people around the globe.   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 12:49, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I couldn't help laughing out loud when I saw that you had linked to some concerns from that failed vice-presidential candidate, Sarah Palin. I agree she is not a local tabloid drama. She is, sadly, a global one. Given her incredibly bigoted starting point, her views on Dawkins cannot be taken seriously for this article. That you think her views count for anything here says a lot more about you than it does about Dawkins. I suspect she disagrees on principle with almost everything he has ever written or said. But who cares? Seriously. HiLo48 (talk) 21:04, 27 August 2014 (UTC)

That was good for a chuckle. A politician's blather, pandering to her/his base constituency is less reliable or notable than tabloid dramatics. Both are designed to sell a product and reality is irrelevant. Vsmith (talk) 02:11, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

At no point have I personally discussed or endorsed the views of Sarah Palin. I have merely cited the existence of her comment on the matter to disprove your scientific claim that the controversy surrounding Dawkins’ latest remarks was merely “local tabloid drama”. Hence, I would very much appreciate it if you refrained for making crass assessments of me as an individual, implied or otherwise. To further disprove your claim I will simply note that I am an Australian citizen. Contrary to your apparent belief, I do not subscribe to UK tabloids or tabloids more broadly speaking. Moving on however, someone recently asked how these “controversies” are relevant to the life of Richard Dawkins and/or his career. The answer is quite simple. Dawkins has invested significant amounts of his life advocating various notions to the public. He is seen as a leading speaker on the topics of atheism, evolution and other scientific theories. His role as Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008 is evidence of this. Making broad sweeping remarks such to the effect of “You’re morally incorrect if you don’t terminate Downs syndrome foetuses” and “The last time Muslims did great things was during the middle ages” will naturally offend the very public you are trying to educate as evident by responses to his Twitter account. When you make a habit of offending people it somewhat undermines your ability to advocate scientific fields as it more or less makes people stop listening to you. How many people exactly? I couldn’t say for sure. However, it’s worth noting that Muslims only make up about 23% of the world’s population. That is the relevance to the article and his career – the impact these types of poorly explained remarks have on his ability to advocate to the common person.   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 08:49, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

You got it right when you said "He is seen as a leading speaker on the topics of atheism, evolution and other scientific theories. His role as Oxford's Professor for Public Understanding of Science from 1995 until 2008 is evidence of this." That's why we have an article on him. What else the media wants to make a fuss about has little to do with that. It doesn't change his status as a scientist, nor the truth of what he writes on those matters, and again, that's the bit about him that justifies an article. The rest is trivia. HiLo48 (talk) 08:55, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

You've completely missed the point. I've already explained how it is relevant and you seem to have completely ignored the undeniable. I will be restoring the POV tag in the near future if consensus cannot be reached. I will do so on the grounds that enough editors have commented regarding the POV (Both here and in the archives) that it would be intellectual dishonesty to assert that the POV of this article is not currently disputed.   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 08:59, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Are we still talking about a POV tag? I thought we had settled that matter as "no tag", and moved on to talking about what kinds of new text could or should be added about Dawkins' tweets, supported by what kinds of sources. Mostly, I see a measured hesitance here to add recent media controversies, since these will seem less and less worthy over time. Instead, I see a number of editors here concerned more with the long view, pausing to make certain that a media controversy is actually significant. Binksternet (talk) 09:23, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Precisely. There is nothing new in the complaints about Dawkins. And certainly nothing of long term notability. HiLo48 (talk) 10:12, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Binksternet has hit the nail on the head in some regards. This discussion should not be about whether or not the remarks were controversial, as it is more than apparent that they were. Those who are attempting to argue against that assertion are fighting a loser’s argument – seeing HiLo attempt to do so is mildly amusing. Even I will agree that there remains some room for discussion over whether or not the “twitter controversy” trend has continued long enough to warrant inclusion. I’m not fully convinced, though I do err on the side of inclusion out of an interest of maintaining a balanced article that grants appropriate weighting to recent events. I would also note that the assertions regarding Downs syndrome and Muslims are but a selection of his controversial remarks. Let not forget his choice words regarding the Jewish lobby in America – such were made a considerable time ago but caused him to be criticised at the time as well. But that in itself proves that this isn’t a “two controversial comments in one month but never again” sort of deal – rather it is systematic to the person. Finally, it is worth reminding everyone that any inclusion regarding the above need not be negative. That is, just because you say controversial things doesn’t mean you’re right or wrong – it just reflects that some people react to what you say rather strongly (either in support or rebuttal). This in itself raises a thought; perhaps controversial is the wrong word to describe what many see as a negative of Richard Dawkins. Perhaps “Polarising” is the better word.   «l| Promethean ™|l»  (talk) 11:31, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

Which is precisely why I suggested some couple of days ago that we define the use of the term "controversial". Doing so will help give a correctly justifiable scale of which to work with. That is the best way to ensure that anything that actually IS noteworthy is noted, and anything that is simply internet drama is NOT.Justin.Parallax (talk) 12:39, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

To judge the real notability of this stuff, see WP:10YT. HiLo48 (talk) 21:05, 28 August 2014 (UTC)

I tend to take essays with a grain mountain of salt as they are usually written with a particular point-of-view in mind. However, in regards to the ten-year test: I do believe that Dawkins' rabble-rousing and the impact it has on his ability to act as a public advocate for the fields of which he has dedicated his life to, will be relevant in ten years time.   «l|Promethean|l»  (talk) 04:35, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

Of course you do. HiLo48 (talk) 05:25, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

• I've just declined a pending revision by an anon IP, who had added the POV tag -- as I don't believe there is consensus here for such an edit. best, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:38, 29 August 2014 (UTC)

I've re-added the tag (assuming an editor approves the revision) as there is a dispute about the neutrality of the article. To remove it, there needs to be a consensus for removing it, not a lack of consensus to add it. 2.102.185.204 (talk) 03:48, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

...And I've removed the tag once again. First: the only issues that have been raised here are easily enough satisfied by composing additional text. There is no existing text that has been identified as a problem. Second: several editors here seem to be intent on pinning a badge of shame on the biography simply because they do not like Dawkins. Wikipedia does not work like that; a well-founded and well-written article cannot be smeared indefinitely by a POV tag placed by ideological opponents. Binksternet (talk) 03:58, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

@2.102.185.204: please have a look at the policy regarding wp:NOCONSENSUS: "... a lack of consensus commonly results in retaining the version of the article as it was prior to the proposal or bold edit." In this case the bold edit was the addition of the tag, not its removal. You need to establish a new consensus for its addition.- DVdm (talk) 07:11, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Yes, they are easily satisfied by composing additional text. I've noted 7 reliable sources (and there are dozens more) reporting his opinion on down syndrome and abortion, as well as the controversy it caused. As the above shows however, there are several fanboys who don't want to add any text that reports criticism of his statements/opinions. The whole article is a problem due to neutrality issues, hence the POV tag.

POV tags don't work like that. They are added when there is a dispute over an article's neutrality. They are not added just when there is a consensus for them to be added. For them to be removed the dispute over the article's neutrality needs to be resolved or a consensus to remove the tag must take place.

There is currently a big chunk of Dawkin's biography missing. Instead of a reception section with praise and criticism of his work/opinions, we have an awards section. Until the neutrality issues are resolved, the POV tag shouldn't be removed - hell, it says that on the bloody tag itself. 2.102.185.204 (talk) 15:51, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Template:POV also says not to use the tag as a badge of shame, that it should not be used to warn readers about an article that you think is non-neutral. Your contributions here do not include any attempt to compose text for that "big chunk" of supposedly missing biography; instead you've argued for the presence of the tag. I would like to assume good faith, and you can help me by suggesting some text here on the talk page, or boldly adding text to the article. Binksternet (talk) 16:18, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

No, I've argued that his comments on down syndrome should be added and I've provided sources. Since that's been stonewalled I added the POV tag. 2.102.185.204 (talk) 19:40, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

"POV tags don't work like that"? Everything here works like that. Without consensus you—de facto—don't get the tag. - DVdm (talk) 19:48, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Nope nope nope. If that were true POV tags would never be added, as why would a dispute over content produce a consensus for adding a POV tag? As the people opposing the revision obviously feel the POV of the article is fine and would oppose the POV tag. The POV tag is added when there is a dispute over the neutrality of the article, full stop. It doesn't require consensus to add, as that would never be achieved and it shouldn't be removed until the dispute is resolved (which several people here don't understand, despite it saying that in the tag). Unless this discussion produces a consensus that there is not a POV issue, then the tag belongs until the POV issue is resolved. 2.102.185.204 (talk) 20:47, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Look, I appreciate that this is an article rated "Good" and a POV tag doesn't look nice for the readers. However, a multitude of sources have been provided, notability has been established, statements have been quoted and reactions have been noted. Despite this there are a few people who oppose inclusion and as such there is a dispute over the neutrality of this article. 2.102.185.204 (talk) 21:02, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Establish consensus, which you have not done, and then we can talk. Dbrodbeck (talk) 21:34, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Did you even read what I wrote? 2.102.185.204 (talk) 04:13, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

You are missing the point, IP. There is little encyclopediac value recording negative (or positive) reactions to Dawkin's views from members of the general public. These non-notable views may be useful for the press to use as pot stirrers if they have run out of real news, but they have no enduring or other value for an encyclopedia. As a parallel, consider a controversial figure with a similar profile from the past. Suppose the Wikipedia article on Bertrand Russell was padded in the way you want to pad this article, with contemporary accounts of how Deidre of the Paddington Croquet Club and Alf of the Tottingham Strong Ale Pub were upset and did not approve of this or that view as expressed by Russell. I doubt you would find those interesting additions, and the situation is the same here. If there are wider consequences and the people who disapprove (or approve) of Dawkin's views end up burning down Parliament and disembowelling their opponents, then you could try here again with a much improved chance of success. --Epipelagic (talk) 22:08, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

I just want the standards of Wikipedia to be applied fairly and evenly. The standard is that when a public figure says something that has caused controversy, beyond "members of the general public" or Twitter followers (as Richard Dawkins has done now and multiple times before), and is covered by a mountain of reliable sources, then it gets one or two sentences in their - in this case, massive (over 5000 words) - article. 2.102.185.204 (talk) 04:13, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

We have an article on Dawkins because of his work and writing in the area of evolutionary biology. He has no particular expertise in other areas, and doesn't claim it. That the tabloid media reports his pronouncements in other areas says a lot about that tabloid media, and the fact that they know they have a ready-made audience of bigoted Dawkins haters they can feed. It says almost nothing about Dawkins. It doesn't belong in his article. HiLo48 (talk) 05:07, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Information in biographies isn't restricted to the person's profession or interests. I don't think you have to be a bigot to dislike Dawkins. Here's some non-tabloid sources (which I already posted above) -

The Guardian - http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/aug/21/richard-dawkins-immoral-not-to-abort-a-downs-syndrome-foetus

The Telegraph - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/11047072/Richard-Dawkins-immoral-to-allow-Downs-syndrome-babies-to-be-born.html

The Daily Mail - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2730028/Atheist-author-Richard-Dawkins-says-foetuses-Downs-syndrome-aborted.html

Sky News - http://news.sky.com/story/1322290/richard-dawkins-sparks-downs-syndrome-row

The Independent - http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/richard-dawkins-on-babies-with-down-syndrome-abort-it-and-try-again-it-would-be-immoral-to-bring-it-into-the-world-9681549.html

BBC News - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-ouch-28879659

Note that this is just the immediate reaction and that most/all of these outlets have posted follow-up articles in the days since. 2.102.185.204 (talk) 01:26, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

All those sources really reinforce my point. See where they're from? Dawkins is known globally for his scientific work and writing. Media in the UK, with its need to fill column inches and air time 24 hours a day, seems to report anything he says that will help gain an audience for them. (Maybe it helps sell his books too. And that helps the publishers, who are often connected with the media...) As someone resident elsewhere, I can assure you that, unlike his scientific work, such trivia rarely reaches our shores. It's not necessary in Wikipedia either. We don't have to fill column inches and airtime every day. HiLo48 (talk) 02:19, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

If the requisite for inclusion in this article is that it gets reported by every media outlet in the English-speaking world and that only being reported by every single media outlet in the United Kingdom is not notable enough, then about half the article needs to be cut. 2.102.185.204 (talk) 03:31, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I did forget his role as a very public atheist which, of course, overlaps with his stance against creationism. That is part of his global image. Otherwise, anything else his enemies want in the article is way off-topic. HiLo48 (talk) 05:04, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

This is a biography. There is no "off-topic" if it involves the person's life. 2.102.186.164 (talk) 13:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

May I rephrase that for you? As a figure who has openly been critical of creationist causes and religious backlash to his study of his study of evolution and biology, as well as a public advocate of humanist causes, Dawkins has something of a plentiful audience of people who would applaud anything that is critical of him. The media is aware of this, and may choose to give stories relating to him undue weight. As wikipedia, we should strive be above that, and not to give undue weight in our articles. Justin.Parallax (talk) 07:59, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

I'll have a go at rephrasing! Due to his well known opposition to religion and promotion of atheism, two traits that make most young men of the western world swoon, he has many fanboys on Wikipedia (which is overwhelmingly made up of young men) and as such, despite his comments being reported in every news outlet in his home country and the wide reaction to his comments, there are people who judge that the positive or neutral about Dawkins only require a single reliable source but when it's negative, it must be all over the entire English-speaking world. 2.102.186.164 (talk) 13:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

We have discussed this for years, and the idea of a 'criticism section about things I don't like about Dawkins' never goes anywhere. We really ought to move on. Dbrodbeck (talk) 11:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

Nobody is asking for a criticism section. I'm asking for a short sentence in this 5000 word biography that notes his comments on down syndrome and abortion. 2.102.186.164 (talk) 13:24, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

So propose it? What sentence would you like included, and where? Justin.Parallax (talk) 13:38, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

It could go in "Other fields" where his opinion on various topics are noted. I might propose the specific wording in an RfC. Am I correct in thinking that an RfC is the only way forward? 2.102.186.164 (talk) 13:46, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

No. Another option is that you could stop wasting your time and ours. I do have fun in these discussions with Dawkins haters, but really, it won't lead to the change you want in the article. Calling those who disagree with you fanboys is not a mature thing to do. HiLo48 (talk) 22:28, 5 September 2014 (UTC)

It's not you and a bunch of people versus me. It's several people advocating inclusion and several advocating exclusion. You're right, I apologise. "bigoted Dawkins haters" is much more mature. You're wrong about me by the way. I'm on the same front as Promethean, in that although I like Dawkins and the debates/arguments he has against religion, I don't let that change my editing. 2.102.186.164 (talk) 02:28, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

A lot of forum-like exchange of opinion is going on here when what is needed is engagement with my comment at 02:08, 27 August 2014 above. Johnuniq (talk) 03:25, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Has anyone asked Dawkins himself? Clearly a very intelligent articulate & thoughtful man (with whom I do not agree) You do him a disservice arguing over these "angels on the head of a pin". He's controversial - the article should say it - it's simple. This discussion and the article is depressing - no dissent allowed - no room for a different opinion - the rise of the new fascism. The human race should beware. This is about as POV as it gets.

Nationality

While the tweet cited in the first sentence is a valid source for Dawkins' self-identification as English, is it a valid basis for Wikipedia stating in its own language that Dawkins is English? His birth in Kenya during the British colonial period does make him a British (not English) citizen. His self-identification as English doesn't seem to belong in the lede. If he is to be considered English, it can be based on his residence in England. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:11, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

RD lives in Oxford (Guardian 2013). Perhaps the 'English' word and ref could be transferred to the section 'Background', and then made to read something like: "Richard Dawkins self-identifies with being English and lives in England, although having been born in Kenya he is officially a British Overseas Citizen." using the Twitter and Guardian refs?

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/sep/15/richard-dawkins-interview-appetite-wonder Richard Nowell (talk) 18:30, 20 September 2014 (UTC)

He should only be identified as a current British overseas citizen if he hasn't registered or naturalized. As the article states, British overseas citizenship is peculiar. He has resided in England for a long time, and is probably now a British citizen. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:16, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

He is clearly a British citizen because he was born of British parents when Kenya was a British colony. His status is not complicated or peculiar. His father was serving in Kenya. Richard was born there. His parents took him back home. No problem. --Bduke (Discussion) 06:57, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Bduke is correct. British women living in the neighbouring protectorate of Tanganika, now Tanzania, would go to Nairobi to give birth so that the child would have full British citizenship.Charles (talk) 09:04, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Edited article, removing 'English' from first sentence, then added a sentence to the section 'Background': "Dawkins self-identifies as being English and currently lives in Oxford, England, but having been born in Kenya, he is a British citizen."Richard Nowell (talk) 09:23, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Self-identification is usually taken into account on Wikipedia. Describing himself as English is hardly some whim - nor is it controversial in the slightest. His birth in Kenya is moot. The removal makes little sense to me...--Somchai Sun (talk) 10:48, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

External Links

There are two External Links in the Selected Writings section that do not work: Viruses of the Mind (1993) – Religion as a mental virus. The Emptiness of Theology at RDFRS.(1998) – A critical view of theology.

Currently, this article has 23 external links. Wikipedia likes one external link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links#Minimize_the_number_of_links

Surely links to newspapers such as The Guardian and The New York Times are unnecessary? The same is also true of the Huffington Post articles. A link to the IMDB movie database is of little worth. Really, I venture that there are far too many external links and that the present number is against WP guidelines: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:External_links

Please can we start to trim the present number of links? Little is gained by having so many- there are internet search engines. I can't see that this makes for a concise and unbiased article. Some very worthy articles have no external links- why should this be any different? Richard Nowell (talk) 11:10, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Removed two dead links and link to IMDB. The 'Selected Writings' set of links seems removable- who selected them and why?Richard Nowell (talk) 13:44, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

Removed one link to 'main website'; there is already one in the infobox so no need to duplicate. Removed another one which linked to the 'Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science'; this is already a wikilink within this article to the RDFRS article, which has it own set of external links (two of them). This leaves 18 external links. Richard Nowell (talk) 10:19, 24 September 2014 (UTC)

Removed audio link and Huffington Post articles link. Added external links box.Richard Nowell (talk) 11:08, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Good stuff, but the EL box should be removed. Not all topics are equal, and the number of external links for an article like this may well exceed the norm. It's fine if someone wants to examine a particular link and remove it per WP:EL, but a tag is not necessary. Johnuniq (talk) 11:18, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

Removed EL box as requested. "Not all topics are equal"... hmmm. This article still has 17 ELs and I suggest could function as well if just the external video links remained. Do you agree? Some editors would just have deleted the whole section! Richard Nowell (talk) 07:40, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Dawkins is an important and much talked-about topic, so there may be good reason that this article has many external links. However, what's needed is to examine the links:

General

1. Template:Worldcat id
2. Richard Dawkins collected news and commentary at The Guardian
3. Richard Dawkins collected news and commentary at The New York Times
4. Collection of Richard Dawkins Quotes

Video

5. National Geographic Interviews – A series of video interviews with National Geographic Channel with Richard Dawkins on Darwin, Evolution and God.
6. Appearances on C-SPAN
7. {{Charlie Rose view|840}}
8. Template:TED
9. Video interview with Riz Khan for Al Jazeera English
10. Video interview at Big Think
11. An Appetite for Wonder: Richard Dawkins in Conversation at the Royal Institution

Selected writings

12. The Real Romance in the Stars (1995) – A critical view of astrology.
13. Snake Oil and Holy Water (1999) – suggests that there is no convergence occurring between science and theism.
14. What Use is Religion? (2004) – suggests that religion may have no survival value other than to itself.
15. Race and Creation (2004) – On race, its usage and a theory of how it evolved.
16. The giant tortoise's tale, The turtle's tale and The lava lizard's tale (2005) – A series of three articles written after a visit to the Galápagos Islands.

General: I'm ambivalent about #1. If Dawkins were a less important figure I would favor removing #1, but if someone wants to keep it, that's fine. I do not see any value in #2, #3, #4—per WP:EL a link should be to something specifically helpful about the subject, not an aggregation.

Video: These are a problem as they do not really give information about the subject, although it could be argued that for Dawkins what counts is his ideas, not his height or the circumstances of his birth. Perhaps #5 is valuable? {{Charlie Rose}} displays nothing; remove #7. Undecided about #6 and #8. I would normally avoid youtube, but #9 is a keep. #10 might be dubious. If I were patient enough to view #11 it might also be a keep.

Selected writings: These are also a problem. Removing #13, #14, #15 would be fine by me. I suspect that #12 and #16 are worthwhile using an WP:IAR interpretation of WP:EL because if I were to read all of them there would be interesting information there, but it's not really the purpose of an EL section. I'm ambivalent. Johnuniq (talk) 10:33, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

These are good suggestions and I think that the article will loose very little if the ELs are reduced somewhat. There is no shortage of information on RD in this article and, more generally, the web. So I venture that it is best that the article conforms to WP's likes, otherwise it might appear to be taking advantage. President Barack Obama has 10 ELs in his WP article if that is any sort of guide... Richard Nowell (talk) 16:39,29 September 2014 (UTC)

Have removed approx 10 ELs using above as guideline, and we are now left with 8, which seems OK. Certainly an improvement on the original 23 ELs.Richard Nowell (talk) 08:44, 3 October 2014 (UTC)

Elevatorgate/Dear Muslima

1. http://www.buzzfeed.com/markoppenheimer/will-misogyny-bring-down-the-atheist-movement#hzt45n
2. http://www.thenation.com/article/181736/atheists-show-their-sexist-side
3. http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/sep/18/richard-dawkins-sexist-atheists-bad-name
4. http://www.salon.com/2014/10/03/new_atheisms_troubling_misogyny_the_pompous_sexism_of_richard_dawkins_and_sam_harris_partner/
5. http://www.dailydot.com/fandom/skepchick-banned-dragon-con-indiegogo/

Of all the controversies surrounding Mr. Dawkins, the Dear Muslima debate appears to be one of the most significant. Why don't we dicuss proposed wording for a short paragraph on the controversy for this article? Cla68 (talk) 04:14, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

• Note: I have invited WikiProject Feminism to participate. Cla68 (talk) 04:59, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Please have read of the POV tag thread above to get an idea of why this won't be included. HiLo48 (talk) 06:19, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I disagree with you that it isn't possible to word the proposed paragraph in a neutral fashion. If we work together, there is no reason at all the addition to this article on this issue can't be phrased in neutral prose. Anyone else have a proposed wording before I weigh in with my suggestion? Cla68 (talk) 10:16, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

I didn't express that opinion, so I'm not sure who you're disagreeing with. This kind of content is simply undue. It's just not an important part of why Dawkins has an article here. HiLo48 (talk) 10:21, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

Based on the sourcing above, I don't agree that this is a minor dispute. Other opinions are welcome. Cla68 (talk) 10:27, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

If you wish to propose a paragraph in a neutral fashion, please do so and make your case for why it is appropriate. Justin.Parallax (talk) 11:21, 9 October 2014 (UTC)

More work

More work is needed on the careers of Dawkins and A.C.Grayling. Both were born in Africa. Both are noted atheists. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.149.163.5 (talk) 14:59, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Article

I would like to add this article in the link attached https://richarddawkins.net/2014/08/abortion-down-syndrome-an-apology-for-letting-slip-the-dogs-of-twitterwar/ with the sentence Dawkins caused controversy with remarks he made about abortion of down syndrome children?--Smokeyfire (talk) 19:19, 19 October 2014 (UTC)Smokeyfire

It has already been discussed. The answer is no. HiLo48 (talk) 20:04, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Why not regardless of if it has been discussed in the past? --Smokeyfire (talk) 08:33, 21 October 2014 (UTC)Smokeyfire

Please search this talk page and possibly the archives to see what the previous discussion involved. If you have a new suggestion that overcomes issues discussed in the past, please explain. You might like to look at WP:TP to see how indenting works. Johnuniq (talk) 09:06, 21 October 2014 (UTC)