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Frequently asked questions

Q1: What should this article be named?

A1: To balance all religious denominations this was discussed on this talk page and it was accepted as early as 2004 that "Jesus", rather than "Jesus Christ", is acceptable as the article title. The title Christ for Jesus is used by Christians, but not by Jews and Muslims. Hence it should not be used in this general, overview article. Similarly in English usage the Arabic Isa and Hebrew Yeshua are less general than Jesus, and cannot be used as titles for this article per WP:Commonname.

Q2: Why does this article use the BC/AD format for dates?

A2: The use of AD, CE or AD/CE was discussed on the article talk page for a few years. The article started out with BC/AD but the combined format AD/CE was then used for some time as a compromise, but was the subject of ongoing discussion, e.g. see the 2008 discussion, the 2011 discussion and the 2012 discussion, among others. In April 2013 a formal request for comment was issued and a number of users commented. In May 2013 the discussion ended and the consensus of the request for comment was to use the BC/AD format.

Q3: Did Jesus exist?

A3: Based on a preponderance of sources, this article is generally written as if he did. A more thorough discussion of the evidence establishing Jesus' historicity can be found at Historicity of Jesus and detailed criticism of the non-historicity position can be found at Christ myth theory. See the policy on the issue for more information.

Q3a: Is "virtually all scholars" a phrase that can be used in Wikipedia?

The issue was discussed on the talk page:

Based on this Wikipedia search the phrase is widely used in Wikipedia.
The definition of the term virtually is shown by the Merriam-Webster dictionary in clear terms.
The term is directly used by the source in the article, and is used per the WP:RS/AC guideline to reflect the academic consensus.

Q3b: What about asking on the reliability noticeboard?

Yes, people involved in the page can discuss matters, but an independent opinion from the reliable source noticeboard can further clarify and confirm the sources. An outside opinion was requested on the noticeboard. The outside opinion there (by user:DGG) stated that the issue has been discussed there many times and that the statement in the article (that virtually all scholars of antiquity hold that Jesus existed) represents the academic consensus.

Q3c: What about the books that claim Jesus never existed?

The internet includes some such lists, and they have been discussed at length on the talk page, e.g. a list of over 20 such books was addressed in this talk page discussion. The list came from a non-WP:RS website and once it was analyzed it became clear that:

Most of the authors on the list were not scholars in the field, and included an attorney, an accountant, a land surveyor, a film-maker, as well as a number of amateurs whose actual profession was less than clear, whose books were self-published and failed the WP:RS requirements. Some of the non-self-published authors on the list were found to just write popular books, have no academic position and not scholars, e.g. Christopher Hitchens.
Some of the books on the list did not even deny the existence of Jesus, e.g. Burton Mack (who is a scholar) holds that Jesus existed but his death was not due to his challenge to Jewish authority, etc. Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman's work is about the Old Testament and not really related to Jesus. Tom Harpur holds that Jesus existed but mythical stories were later added to the gospel narratives about him.

The analysis of the list thus indirectly shed light on the scarcity of scholars who deny the existence of Jesus.

Q3d: Do we have to survey the scholars ourselves?

The formal Wikipedia guidelines require us not to do our own survey. The Wikipedia guideline WP:RS/AC specifically states: "The statement that all or most scientists or scholars hold a certain view requires reliable sourcing that directly says that all or most scientists or scholars hold that view." Given that the guideline then states: "statement in Wikipedia that academic consensus exists on a topic must be sourced rather than being based on the opinion or assessment of editors." we should not rely on our own surveys but quote a scholar who states the "academic consensus".

Q3e: Why even mention the existence of Jesus in the article lead?

A: This was discussed on the talk page. Although scholars at large see existence as a given, there are some self-published, non-scholarly books which question it, and hence non-scholars who read this article need to to have that issue clarified. And note that the statements regarding existence and other attributes need to be kept separate and stating that "Virtually all scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus was from Galilee" would not be accurate, because scholarly agreement on existence is much stronger than on other items.

Q4: Are the scholars who study Jesus all Christian?

A4: No. According to Bart D. Ehrman in How Jesus Became God (2014, ISBN 978-0-06-177818-6, p. 187), "most New Testament scholars are themselves Christian". However, scholars of many faiths have studied Jesus. There are three aspects to this question:

Some of the most respected late-20th-century scholars involved in the study of the historical Jesus (e.g. Amy-Jill Levine, Geza Vermes, Paula Fredriksen) are Jewish. This trend is discussed in the 2012 book Soundings in the Religion of Jesus, by Bruce Chilton, Anthony Le Donne, and Jacob Neusner (ISBN 978-0-8006-9801-0, p. 132). While much of the older research in the 1950–1970 time frame may have involved Christian scholars (mostly in Europe) the 1980s saw an international effect and since then Jewish scholars have brought their knowledge of the field and made significant contributions. And one should note that the book is coauthored by the likes of Chilton and Neusner with quite different backgrounds. Similarly one of the main books in the field, The Historical Jesus in Context, by Amy-Jill Levine, Dale C. Allison Jr., and John Dominic Crossan (2006, ISBN 978-0-691-00992-6), is jointly edited by scholars with quite different backgrounds. In the late 20th and the 21st century Jewish, Christian and secular agnostic scholars have widely cooperated in research. The Muslim Reza Aslan wrote the number-one bestseller Zealot (2013).
Regarding the existence of a historical Jesus, the article lead quotes Ehrman who is an agnostic and Price who is an atheist. Moreover, G. A. Wells who was widely accepted as the leader of the non-existence movement in the 20th century, abandoned that position and now accepts that the Q source refers to "a preacher" on whom parts of the gospels were based – although he believes that the supernatural claims were just stories that were then attributed to that preacher. That is reflected in his 2004 book Can We Trust the New Testament (pp. 49–50). While scholars continue to debate the historicity of specific gospel narratives, the agreement on the existence of Jesus is quite global.
It is misleading to assume that Christian scholars will be biblical literalists who cannot engage in critical scholarship. Catholic and non-Evangelical Protestant scholars have long favoured the historical-critical method, which accepts that not all of the Bible can be taken literally.^[1] For example, the Christian clerics and scholars Michael Ramsey, C. F. D. Moule and James Dunn all argued in their scholarship that Jesus did not claim to be divine,^[2] Conrad Hyers, a Presbyterian minister, criticizes biblical literalism: "Literal clarity and simplicity, to be sure, offer a kind of security in a world (or Bible) where otherwise issues seem incorrigibly complex, ambiguous and muddy. But it is a false security, a temporary bastion, maintained by dogmatism and misguided loyalty."^[3]^[4]
Finally, Wikipedia policies do not prohibit Buddhist scholars as sources on the history of Buddhism, Jewish scholars on Judaism, or Muslim scholars as sources on the history of Islam provided they are respected scholars whose works meet the general WP:RS requirements in terms of publisher reputation, etc.

Q5: Why are some historical facts stated to be less certain than others?

A5: The difference is "historically certain" versus "historically probable" and "historically plausible". There are a number of subtle issues and this is a somewhat complicated topic, although it may seem simple at first:

Hardly any scholars dispute the existence of Jesus or his crucifixion.
A large majority of scholars agree that he debated the authorities and had "followers" – some scholars say there was a hierarchy among the followers, a few think it was a flat organization.
More scholars think he performed some healings (given that Rabbinic sources criticize him for that etc., among other reasons) than those who say he never did, but less agreement on than the debates with authorities, etc.

As the article states, Amy-Jill Levine summarized the situation by stating: "Most scholars agree that Jesus was baptized by John, debated with fellow Jews on how best to live according to God's will, engaged in healings and exorcisms, taught in parables, gathered male and female followers in Galilee, went to Jerusalem, and was crucified by Roman soldiers during the governorship of Pontius Pilate." In that statement Levine chose her words very carefully. If she had said "disciples" instead of followers there would have been serious objections from other scholars, if she had said "called" instead of "gathered", there would have also been objections in that some scholars hold that Jesus preached equally to all, never imposed a hierarchy among his followers, etc. Scholars have very specific positions and the strength of the consensus among them can vary by changing just one word, e.g. follower to disciple or apostle, etc.

Q6: Why is the infobox so brief?

A6: The infobox is intended to give a summary of the essential pieces of information, and not be a place to discuss issues in any detail. So it has been kept brief, and to the point, based on the issues discussed below.

Q6a: Was Jesus Jewish?: Yes, as mentioned in the article, but not in the infobox. An RfC at the Village Pump says to include religion in the infobox only if it's directly related to the subject's notability and there's consensus. Some editors want to include his religion in the infobox and others do not. With no consensus, the default is to leave the religion out of the box.
Q6b: Why is the birthplace not mentioned in the infobox?: The question came up in this discussion and there is no solid scholarly agreement on Bethlehem, so the infobox does not address that.

Q7: Why is there no discussion of the legacy/impact of Jesus?

A7: That issue is inherently controversial, and has been discussed on the talk page for many years (see, e.g., the 2006 discussion, the June 2010 discussion, the November 2010 discussion). One user commented that it would turn out to be a discussion of the "impact of Christianity" in the end; because all impact was through the spread of Christianity in any case. So it has been left out due to those discussions.

Q8: Why is there no discussion of Christian denominational differences?

A8: Christianity includes a large number of denominations, and their differences can be diverse. Some denominations do not have a central teaching office and it is quite hard to characterize and categorize these issues without a long discussion that will exceed the length limits imposed by WP:Length on articles. The discussion of the theological variations among the multitude of Christian denominations is beyond the scope of this article, as in this talk page discussion. Hence the majority and common views are briefly sketched and links are provided to other articles that deal with the theological differences among Christians.

Q9: What is the correct possessive of Jesus?

A9: This article uses the apostrophe-only possessive: Jesus', not Jesus's. Do not change usage within quotes. That was decided in this discussion.

Q10: Why does the article state "[m]ost Christians believe Jesus to be the incarnation of God the Son and the awaited messiah ...?" Don't all Christians believe this?

A10: Wikipedia requires a neutral point of view written utilizing reliable scholarly sources. It does not take a position on religious tenets. In this case, the sources cited clearly state "most", not "all", Christians hold the stated beliefs, as some sects and persons who describe themselves as "Christian", such as Unitarians, nevertheless do not hold these beliefs. This was agreed upon multiple times, including in this discussion.

References

^ R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49
^ Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.
^ Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.
^ Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

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Talk:Jesus/archivebox

Semi-protected edit request on 1 January 2015

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It states that Jesus is a fictional character under his name .I would like to see it changed to "Historical figure" 49.224.74.77 (talk) 15:34, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the notes above explaining that this is Facebook's error and nothing to do with Wikipedia. Britmax (talk) 16:13, 1 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV treatment of gospel accounts

The "Jesus in the Gospels" section contradicts scholarship in two ways. First, it privileges the canonical gospels. Second, it conflates the stories into one narrative. Both those practices are Christian practices, and they date back to the 100s. So how could we cover this material in a less orthodox and more scholarly way? The Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church provides us a good example. First it has a paragraph on Mark, then one on Matthew and Luke, and then one on John. The paragraph on John points out its differences from the synoptics, such as Jesus not experiencing any human weakness (no baptism, no temptation, no Gethsemane, no agony). How about we follow that outline? I took it from a Christian source, and this outline still singles out the canonical gospels, but I'd be happy to keep the canonical boundaries if we can get a treatment that distinguishes among the gospel accounts rather than weaving them together. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 00:48, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The article is not about the canonical Gospels. Would you propose that in a biographical article on some other historical figure, that we have a separate section for each potential source there was? Or would you suggest that we write a single biographical account citing the sources we have? ReformedArsenal (talk) 15:58, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

"Would you propose that in a biographical article on some other historical figure, that we have a separate section for each potential source there was?" If that's the way good tertiary sources treat the figure, yes. I'm proposing that we follow the worthy example of a reliable, scholarly source rather than following Christian practice. What are you proposing, that we stick with Christian practice? Jonathan Tweet (talk) 16:11, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not experiencing any human weakness? John is the gospel that has "Jesus wept". St Anselm (talk) 20:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, Anselm. If we can find a reliable source that makes that point, we should include it.

I understand Jonathan Tweet but would disagree that it is not a scholarly practice (I'm not saying the scholarly practice). First of all, I think scholars all agree that the canonical gospels are the best sources as they are the oldest one. For the same reason, Mark is a better source than Matthew or Luke, which still are better than John. Most scholarly works on the historical Jesus largely pass over John for precisely that reason. I think Jonathan Tweet is right that it is a bit problematic to tell just one story. Which gospel do we go by. To take but one example: it's possible that Matthew is right about Jesus's early childhood, it's possible that Luke is right about it; it's very possible that both Luke and Matthew are wrong butit's absolutely impossible that they would both be right, as they contradict each other time and time again. So do we tell Luke's or Matthew's story? By dividing the story according to the gospels we avoid that problem, but it creates a bigger problem. It might give readers the impression that the scholars think each gospel is equally trustworthy (or not trustworthy). There is no consensus on every detail, but most scholars still agree on some basic aspects as almost certain, on some aspects as probable, on some aspects as unknown, some aspect as improbable and some aspects as almost certainly inaccurate. So I think we should tell one story, and make sure we stick to what modern scholarship, rather than both Christian and anti-Christian tradition, hold.Jeppiz (talk) 19:47, 4 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jeppiz, I think I agree with you on just about every count. It would really help to find an example of a good tertiary source that handles the topic as one story. Here's one, the Encyclopedia Britannica article on Jesus Christ. But in this case the one story is a historical story, not the Gospel story. It makes sense to have a single historical account of Jesus, but that's not what this section is. This section isn't about the mortal preacher of history. It's about Jesus as he appears in the New Testament. My sense is that trying to create a historical account of Jesus would be a lot more contentious than "Jesus in the NT" because we can agree on what the NT says but not on who Jesus really was. If there's an example of a neutral, scholarly source that conflates the gospel accounts into one, that could be our model and guideline. But conflating the gospel accounts is a devotional practice, not a scholarly one. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 16:32, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

And here's my better answer to ReformedArsenal: "Would you propose that in a biographical article on some other historical figure, that we have a separate section for each potential source there was?" If we only had four sources, and they contradicted each other, and their contradictions were historically illuminating, then absolutely I'd want to have a separate section for each source. Why would one take four contradictory sources and merge them into one story? That's not how scholars approach the topic. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 16:36, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

(I am playing devil's advocate with the following comment. I actually agree with Jonathan.) True, but many, including most religious and many nonreligious scholars, argue that those four sources are not contradictory. The two genealogies, for example, can be rectified by recognizing one as the biological genealogy and the other as the legal one, and the differing Holy Week timelines can be rectified if one considers there were two slightly different calendars in use during that era. If there is indeed no contradiction then there is no need for different sections. Jtrevor99 (talk) 19:51, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jonathan, what we would do (and do do) in other instances, is make notes within the single biographical narrative when one source is contradictory, or where there is not agreement. We don't devote a section to each source. ReformedArsenal (talk) 20:24, 6 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

ReformedArsenal, thanks for that information. I didn't know that what you describe is standard. Could you please point me to a good tertiary sources that treats the topic this way? You say that this is standard. If so, show me a source that follows the standard you describe. While you look for a reliable source that agrees with you, allow me to explain why I want to break the sources out individually. First, that's the way Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church does it. Second, according to the header, this section is not a biographical narrative of Jesus. Its topic is the NT's depictions of Jesus' life. That's a literary topic, or a religious one, not a biographical one. If you would prefer to change this section to be Jesus' biography, then that's a lot like what Britannica has. Honestly, I prefer Britannica's approach because it's historical instead of literary. But the literary question is a lot easier to answer, and this section has always been literary instead of biographical. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 02:33, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jtrevor99, thanks for giving me the opportunity to get ahead of your hypothetical objection. What if someone said, "The Gospels don't contradict each other"? I would say, so what? What matters is Wikipedia policy. Our responsibility is not to be right about who Jesus was. Our responsibility is to edit this page in accordance with WP policies and standards. Even if you convince every editor that the Gospels don't contradict each other after all, that doesn't change anything. The editors' personal judgments don't matter. They don't count. Only reliable sources count. All of us, even if we thought the Gospels were God's own Truth, would be honor bound to summarize what the RSs say. If the RSs treat the Gospels individually, then we should, too. Anyone who's arguing without referring to sources is not doing what WP editors are supposed to do. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 02:40, 10 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jonathan, this would be absolutely true in an article on the Gospels (as a whole, or individually). However, this is an article about the historical figure "Jesus." The gospels are historical sources for that individual, so if you can show me another article that devotes separate sections to what different sources say about that biographical figure, then we have a precedent to discuss... however, until then we should treat this biographical article like we treat other ones. ReformedArsenal (talk) 02:18, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Show us a good tertiary source that treats this topic that way you want us to treat it. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 04:37, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

But Jonathan Tweet: I disagree that the current article consistently tries to harmonize the sources into one narrative. In each section, you have paragraphs starting "Matthew begins his gospel...", "In Luke...", "...the Gospel of Mark calls Jesus...", "John's gospel presents...". There are also places that do try to harmonize, however. Maybe we should keep the current breakdown, but be more consistent in not harmonizing sources. Bacchiad (talk) 02:35, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

You're right that this section doesn't completely conflate the topic the way a purely devotional work would. It's maybe half conflated. Years ago, I put a good deal of work in to differentiate among the gospels, but certain editors undid it. For me, it comes down to following scholarly practice. Is there a good source that treats the topic as you suggest? If not, let's follow the lead provided by the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, or the textbook Historical Jesus. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 04:37, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why two randomly chosen sources should be dispositive. The ODotCC presupposes a level of familiarity with the subject - being somewhat more specialized - and the HJ textbook is a textbook, so it has more room. A general encyclopedia is different. Which is why Britannica treats it as one story. But if you want to mock it up on your own userspace I might be convinced. Bacchiad (talk) 05:14, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I've never seen an encyclopedia treat this in a different way than what I'm proposing. They present a biographical narrative of the subject, noting where appropriate where there are discrepancies among the primary sources. If anything, you would need to substantiate why we should depart from this when this is the standard. ReformedArsenal (talk) 20:40, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I don't object to treating the biography in a primarily literary-historicographical-critical way. I think that's the right thing to do. Other articles whose subjects have similar problems do that - Homer and Pythagoras for instance. I'm just not convinced (although I could be by a good draft) that breaking it down by the four gospels is the only or best way to do that. Bacchiad (talk) 21:34, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Still waiting for someone to show us a source that treats the topic of Jesus this way. If you don't like my sources, show us yours. ReformedArsenal, you seem to imply that multiple encyclopedias treat Jesus your way. Please point us to them. Arguments are nice, but show us a source. What secular source treats the topic of Jesus in this manner? If folks prefer the Britannica approach, that's fine, but that's "Jesus according to historians" and not "Jesus according to 1st-century Christians." I also have a text book called Historical Jesus. We could use that model, too. It discusses the synoptics together, and then discusses John together with other semi-gnostic sources. I'd be happy to follow that model. So far, no one else has offered a model to follow from a reputable, secular source. Alternatively, someone locate a WP policy that we should treat Jesus differently from how reputable, secular tertiary sources treat Jesus. Jonathan Tweet (talk) 15:02, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Alright. WP:BEBOLD, my friend. Bacchiad (talk) 17:45, 18 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

JTweet... I'm not saying Britannica is a source... I'm saying that the typical model of how Encyclopedias handle biography is not to have separate sections for each primary source that contains discrepancies, rather it is to have a single section which tells the narrative information and comments regarding discrepancies along the way. The reputable, secular, tertiary encyclopedic sources treat him exactly as I'm proposing. I've showed you one encylopedia to support this, do you have any evidence of any other encyclopedias that treat it differently? ReformedArsenal (talk) 23:37, 19 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 7 January 2015

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Please, out of respect to Christians, at least change Jesus from a "Fictional Character" to an "Historical Figure". Thank you.

168.215.222.157 (talk) 20:13, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: I can't find the word "fiction" used anywhere on the page. If you want a change made, you will have to be more specific. G S Palmer (talk • contribs) 20:21, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

As we wouldn't do it solely "out of respect for Christians" it's just as well that this was Facebook's issue not ours. Britmax (talk) 22:55, 7 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

There's no need to bait him or anyone else. A jaded reader could misinterpret your comment as "we will be disrespectful of Christians on Wikipedia if it suits us". That is incompatible with Wikipedia's policy to be respectful of all cultures and traditions. Clearly, that is not what you intended, but I would urge caution. Regardless, it amazes me that Facebook has not made the correction after tens of thousands of complaints. Jtrevor99 (talk) 17:19, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, which policy to be respectful of all cultures and traditions? Britmax is right, we certainly would not change it just out of respect for Christians. Regardless of one's beliefs, articles are not changed solely for the purpose of being respectful to religions. Only if the content is referenced and reliable is it added. See WP:NOTCENSORED. JZ CL 18:37, 8 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to WP:NPOV, specifically WP:RNPOV and WP:OUTRAGE. Do you interpret these policies differently? And I'm not questioning whether Britmax is right; I'm questioning how it was stated. I thought I made that clear; I apologize if I didn't. Jtrevor99 (talk) 22:25, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Jesus is a major prophet of Islam

why has that information not been put into this article with a reference to the pages in islam with a link to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_and_messengers_in_Islam.

After "and is also the Son of God." add "Jesus is also a major prophet and messeger of Islam".

Right now it looks like this page hi-jacks the consept of Jesus for christians and not acknowledge that he is a major part of Islam ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.10.212.210 (talk) 17:15, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

The fourth paragraph of the lede addresses this in detail. -- LWG ^talk 17:37, 12 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the article already states this (several times in fact). Besides, the article is not "hi-jacked" for Christians; if it seems to have a primarily Christian slant that's because of Christ's importance in Christianity. All faiths and historical viewpoints are (should be) represented. Jtrevor99 (talk) 22:21, 14 January 2015 (UTC)[reply]

[1] R.Kendall Soulen, Handbook of Biblical Criticism, Westminster John Knox Press (2001), p. 49

[Hick_page_27-2] Hick, John (2006). The Metaphor of God Incarnate: Christology in a Pluralistic Age. Presbyterian Publishing Corporation. p. 27. ISBN 978-0-664-23037-1. Retrieved 5 January 2024.

[ConrandHyersFooterBio-3] Hyers, Conrad (Spring 2000). "Comparing biblical and scientific maps of origins". Directions: A Mennonite Brethren Forum. 29 (1): 16–26.

[4] Hyers, Conrad (August 4–11, 1982). "Biblical Literalism: Constricting the Cosmic Dance". Christian Century. p. 823. Archived from the original on June 4, 2011. Retrieved 9 November 2012.

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