Talk:Alt-left

FYI

This page has an RfD attached to it: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Alt-left - Knowledgekid87 (talk) 00:32, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Which took place in April, which might as well have been during the Buchanan administration for all the relevance it has now.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:34, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Here is the REAL AFD: Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Alt-left

• Note, I don't know who changed the link in the first comment after I responded, but editors should NEVER make such an edit. I suppose it is only to be expected given the bad-faith editing and hostility that this page/AfD have generated. sigh. The comment I was responding to by Knowledgekid was linked to [[1]].E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:31, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Lede

What this word means and what the body of the article state should match as the lede is a summary of the article itself however, this needs further discussion as the body of the article is likely to change rapidly depending on contributions.--Mark Miller (talk) 16:24, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Moved from Lede to discus and return to article's body of text.

used by some conservatives and liberals to refer to people and social activist groups on the political left, mainly those who associate with progressivist ideals, to suggest the existence of a fringe ideological movement equivalent to the alt-right, a faction of the far-right consisting mainly of white supremacists and political extremists. The term had become known for its use by United States President Donald Trump in an August 15, 2017 press conference at New York City's Trump Tower. In the conference, Trump – who doubled-down on a statement he made on August 12, in response to the vehicle-ramming attack against rally counter-protestors commited by a 20-year-old white nationalist during the Unite the Right rally in Charlottesville, Virginia – criticized what he called the "very, very violent[...] alt-left," correlating to his earlier assertion that there was "blame on both sides" for the violence at the rally in his initial statement.

--Mark Miller (talk) 17:03, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

The issue with the above is that there is a huge amount of text and all sources are grouped at the end. The claims need to be cited directly after each claim with an inline citation from a reliable source.--Mark Miller (talk) 17:05, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

This still seems off to me and not at all what the article says.

used by some conservatives and liberals to refer to people and social activist groups on the political left, mainly those who associate with progressivist ideals, equating them to the alt-right, a faction of the far-right consisting mainly of white supremacists and political extremists. It is mainly used disparagingly to suggest the existence of a fringe ideological movement equivalent to the alt-right.

References

--Mark Miller (talk) 18:08, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - Tvtonightokc I have reverted your edits because they have been disputed. A discussion has been requested.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 18:56, 16 August 2017 (UTC)
  • The main concept behind the edits to the alt-left article was that the term had no political exclusivity. In point of fact, I've heard the term be used in articles as a derogatory term for progressives, but it is likely also used for other factions of the political left that are left-of-center. This is typified by one of the earlier edits which mentioned its origins during the 2016 Presidential campaign. Some of the refs do seem to contradict one another, creating a confusing "chicken or the egg" situation as to which ideology originated the term and which one co-opted it. Unfortunately, Mark Miller's removals of the lead text and the paragraph that reference its origins within the Democratic Party/left to refer to other ideologues to their left weakened the explanation of it being a uniform slur against certain factions of the left. I think that it's important to explain the full origins of the term and how it spread between the two parties. TVTonightOKC 19:11, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

"..used by some conservatives and liberals to refer to people and social activist groups on the political left, mainly those who associate with progressivist ideals.." That needs multiple strong sources as it is a BLP issue.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:34, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

"The term had become known for its use by United States President Donald Trump in an August 15, 2017 press conference at New York City's Trump Tower." aside from the grammar issue, it is undue weight.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:35, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Unrelated use in the UK

Buzzfeed UK wrote about "alt-left" media in the UK in May 2016. They used the term to mean hyperpartisan left-wing news websites that support Jeremy Corbyn, the leader of the UK Labour Party. --User:Edpw ) 18:02, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

May 2017.[2] Doug Weller talk 18:33, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Should there be a "Not to be confused with..." template added? Nah.--Mark Miller (talk) 18:44, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Is this another Campaign for the neologism "santorum"

Should this article simply treat this subject in a similar manner?--Mark Miller (talk) 18:25, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Jacobin magazine op-ed

How is it that an opinion piece by a non-RS magazine can be presented in "Wikipedia voice"? CJK09 (talk) 18:30, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

How do you consider the source to be non RS?--Mark Miller (talk) 18:42, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

why ?

@Mark Miller: , why

that reset  ??

My edit has delivered three places of finding (or is 'sources of information' the better word ? I'm German => no native speaker).

It's no WP:OR - the three are mentioned in a Spiegel online article that was published today. 'Spiegel online is one of the most influential political online media in Germany (even before FAZ.net, zeit.de and sueddeutsche.de).

I ask you to explain your reset your reset or to reverse it. Why didn't you use the Edit summary ? --Neun-x (talk) 19:22, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Can you show me the quote (even in German) that this is based on? Frankly, at the moment I do not think non-English sources should be introduced unless there is no English equivalent.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:31, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I should mention that most of that is already in the article.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

@Mark Miller: What ??

• Liberals get hysterical over the 'alt-right' but we are living in their 'alt-left' world
• vanityfair.com March 3, 2017 and

The alt-left’s cyber jihad against Trump and his supporters

are N O T in the article. I have 2 eyes in my head (and about 50.000 edits on my counter) . --Neun-x (talk) 20:38, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

If you feel that part of what I removed has relevance please feel free to re-add but please consider all of our policies and guidelines before adding.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:44, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Mark Miller continued reversions

@Mark Miller:} Is there a reason you continue to revert edits to this article with no edit summary? I realize it is a contentious topic, and in some ways distasteful, but at the same time we owe it to the reader to explain what the term means and how it is being used. Just having a sentence saying "It is a neologism and pejorative" doesn't really help people understand the phrase. 2602:30A:2C2A:370:458D:E292:3BA3:D6CE (talk) 19:37, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I should use more summary explanations. That is true. I will be more alert to that.

@Mark Miller:} One again, you are saying in your edit summary that the sources do not say what they actually do say.. The three sources in question say (verbatim I might add) "the term maintains differing usages between both parties" ss well as "The term has been used by some politicians and political commentators on both sides of the political aisle to frame certain activists and politicians on the left as an equation to the alt-right". Your edit summary say that the sources do not say this, when actuality they say it quite clearly. did you read the sources in question? 162.194.160.55 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 19:40, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

To make a claim about groups requires multiple strong sources that state as fact in unambiguous terms. This is original research and lacks inline citations to specific claims making it very difficult to verify, but when checked the sources simply do not support the claims.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:50, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Again, did you read the sources? They use this EXACT phrasing! I am now genuinely confused. Would you be more comfortable with "according to the New York Times..." blah blah blah...? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.194.160.55 (talk) 19:54, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I did read the sources.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:58, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Ok so once again, the NYT article uses the exact phrasing in question. Can you please clearly explain your objection (without being vague and saying "it's against policy")? More specifically, my question to you is why the objection to directly quoting a reliable source verbatim? No synth, no OR. Just using the exact words in the exact order that the NYT article used. I don't want to battle with you - I am asking in goof faith why the objection. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.194.160.55 (talk) 20:03, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Exactly what claim do you feel that supports?--Mark Miller (talk) 20:06, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I asked a very simple question. Please provide the courtesy of answering it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:30A:2C2A:370:458D:E292:3BA3:D6CE (talk) 20:10, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Mark Miller, you have no mandate to blank the sourced and relevant material from the lede. Stop your unilateral reverts.Axxxion (talk) 20:15, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Source your content with an inline citation and be careful of what claims you make about groups. All content that is challenged or likely to be challenged must be cited to a reliable source using an inline citation. It is up to the editor that adds the content back to provide an inline citation to a reliable source and once accomplished satisfies this guideline on verifiability. But the source must state it in in unambiguous terms.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:16, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

The problem is that you write a lot of characters here, but do not seem to say clearly and specifically what you think is not supported by sources and what you suggest.Axxxion (talk) 20:35, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

You should recognize the last comment, it paraphrases our policy on verifiability.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:42, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I am not the one who created the subsection away from the discussion about the lede. I am just responding here as it is where the discussion continued.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:47, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Ideology

From what i've seen they are usually racist, sexist, anti science and socialist i can source all of this later Jack1234567891011121314151617 (talk) 19:47, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

BLP issues

Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons policy is clear, claims about individuals or groups that is poorly sourced or not sourced at all should be removed without discussion.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:53, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

But it is not poorly sourced. It is a quote directly from the New York Times. And it is not a "claim" about anyone - it is an attempt to define a term/ideology. In any event, I give up. Obviously I am missing something here. This really should not be that contentious of an entry. 162.194.160.55 (talk) 19:58, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I suggest reading the policy.--Mark Miller (talk) 19:59, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

No BLP here. Mark Miller, you are just engaged in unjustified deletion of material.Axxxion (talk) 20:25, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons#Legal persons and groups.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:41, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Ok. But you never said clearly what exactly you were unhappy about. I have removed all the groups. But why blank the whole lede?Axxxion (talk) 20:56, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Bullshit. "Conservatives" is not a legal person or group. 184.101.234.2 (talk) 21:03, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Agree. There is no BLP issue here. Mark needs to specify if they feel there is one. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:14, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

It was removed User:EvergreenFir but I contend that making such claims towards specific groups does qualify as a BLP issue and that the sources did not actually support the claim directly and unambiguously.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:27, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

There appears to be a good faith effort to address the concerns.--Mark Miller (talk) 21:28, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Continued and baffling wholesale reversions by Mark Miller

Not sure why you refuse to discuss at talk, but it is certainly your prerogative. You are now editi warrring and creating a battleground atmosphere. My advice is to discuss your changes, and not just spout policy. Again it is your choice, but if taken to ANI at this pint you will likely be blocked from the article. I'd rather not do so because I think your contributions are actually valuable, but you need to discuss them first. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:772D:62D0:8C0D:5380:97D2:CF28 (talk) 23:28, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

@Mark Miller: Where is your source for this:"The term began being used by Sean Hannity and Fox News to criticize bias against President-elect Trump."??

I have initiated several attempts to talk including your talk page. Discussion is not required before edits are made but I have attempted to bring a discussion here. As for your question; "The term began being used by Sean Hannity and Fox News to criticize bias against President-elect Trump".. the reference is in the body of the article next to the claim.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:33, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Disputes to article content

Are there any current disputes about content, wording or sourcing? Would editors like to take the opportunity to discuss what they object to?--Mark Miller (talk) 02:48, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Plenty of objections, all of which you have chosen to ignore. Instead you cite policy without making any specific reference to the article itself (see above). Now the page is locked down. I trust you are satisfied. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.114.214.45 (talk) 03:17, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

It does seem odd to argue instead of adding your concern.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:25, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Failed verification

The part "Unrelated to Donald Trump's use of the word," appears to fail verification. The source must say it was "unrelated".

See "The term gained prevalence when U.S. president Donald Trump used the phrase during remarks on the Charlottesville rally on August 15, 2017." According to which source it "gained prevalence" after Trump used it? I think we needs sources in the lede in order to verify the content for a controversial topic. QuackGuru (talk) 03:07, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

That is actually a good point towards the use of references in the lede.--Mark Miller (talk) 04:24, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

• User:QuackGuru I checked the history and the line about "Unrelated to Donald Trump.." was attached to the original claim with no additional references. This appears to be original research or synthesis. Without that sourced context, I think it only confuses the situation and other content. I'm for losing it and going back to my original suggestion that I struck out. We should just add a "Not to be confused with". Template at the top of the page.--Mark Miller (talk) 20:43, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

The Alt-Left already existed prior to reinvention

The alt-left already existed before Fox reinvented the word. It borrowed the "alt-" from alt-right, some proponents did away with race realism and white identitarianism while others kept it, added typical left wing politics, but without it's brand of identity politics (things relating to intersectionality and critical theory). It also insists on being as critical of all religions as of Christianity, with Islam being a main subject of discussion.

There's a reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/AlternativeLeft/

A dedicated site (which is more race oriented): https://altleft.com

Robert A Lindsay is allegedly the one who coined the term: https://robertlindsay.wordpress.com/2015/08/18/proposal-for-an-alternative-left/

There are pages and groups on Facebook too that predate the reinvention by Conservatives https://www.facebook.com/search/str/alt+left/keywords_search

Another dedicated site (not focused on race) https://altleftjournal.wordpress.com/

a group which been established in 9 april 2016 prior to sean hannity statement.

https://www.facebook.com/alternativeleft/

a blog which describe preferred policies for the alt left and which describe the movements inside the group at the moment.

http://socialdemocracy21stcentury.blogspot.co.il/2016/09/a-proposal-for-alt-left-political.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.182.163.156 (talk) 01:08, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

— Preceding unsigned comment added by 176.71.110.214 (talk) 12:55, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

The Young Turks' TYT Nation program also recently published a video explaining its origins as a derogatory term by centrist Democrats to those within the party (as well as left-aligned independents) who support progressive ideals: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G8noaimoNzk

Here are other articles that corroborate this, coming from ShadowProof, The New Republic, Politico, The Washington Post, Vice, and the Los Angeles Times. A couple of these articles do muddy the water as to who originated the term, but most note that "alt-left" was co-opted by conservatives to disparage progressive Democrats but was originated for the same purpose by centrist Dems. I welcome Mark Miller and others to review these articles, so we can generate some form of compromise as to how to illustrate the origins of the term. TVTonightOKC 13:56, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

OK..now this is interesting but I wonder if these can truly be compared let alone be stated as the same al-left this article is referring to.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:49, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

A framework for progress on the article

It seems unlikely the AfD discussion will suddenly produce a consensus for deletion, so we should discuss how to make the article good and useful. Here's what I think we know based on the references existing in the article.

The term "alt-left" saw isolated uses from 2015 into early 2017 by both liberal and conservative commentators in the United States, generally in attempts to coin the term into common usage. Centrist liberals used it as a derogatory term for the socialist wing of the Democratic Party. Conservatives used it to refer to violent anarchist, anti-capitalist, and anti-fascist activists as exemplified by the Antifa movement. The former definition was seen in both liberal and mainstream media; the latter definition was entirely restricted to conservative media.

Increasing use of the term by Fox News seems to have triggered increasing coverage in mainstream outlets staking out various positions on the meaning or legitimacy of the term. Some of these articles adopted the extreme position that there is no alt-left, which flies in the face of plentiful evidence that all of those earlier commentators were surely referring to very real groups, even though none of those groups used the term themselves.

Just recently, President Trump's adoption of the conservative-preferred definition has led to a new wave of coverage. Some outlets continue to maintain that there is no alt-left, but increasingly, mainstream publications such as The New York Times and The Washington Post are taking the term seriously.

At the same time, liberal outlets don't seem to be trying to re-establish the link to the Democratic Party's socialist wing. This has the effect of solidifying the Antifa-related definition. Also supporting that definition is growing documentation that left-wing radicals have been responsible for more violent protests in recent years than the alt-right. (That source isn't exactly reliable overall, but the list of violent demonstrations passes the sniff test. And though of course the awful violence in Charlottesville was vastly worse than all of those left-wing protests put together, it wouldn't be wise or fair to let that fact brush aside the others. There are plenty of historical examples of brutal murders by the left as well.)

So it seems likely to me that over time we're likely to see the usage of this term consolidate behind the conservative definition, and even while we're waiting to see if that really happens, there's an interesting fact-based story to tell right here. 98.247.224.9 (talk) 21:18, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

References

I dispute the above as being a way forward. First all that from one source? OK, but please explain why we should use this one source as the overarching source to begin?--Mark Miller (talk) 23:23, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Mark, I said "Here's what I think we know based on the references existing in the article." I think that's pretty clear. I mentioned one additional web page, but only to support one narrow point I'm trying to bring into the story. I strongly support the basic principle of WP:AGF, but you really do seem to be intent on pursuing a strategy of obstructionism here, and eventually assumptions must yield to ground truth. You said "first." Do you have other comments that would be more constructive? Did I, for example, assert any facts that reliable sources contradict? Did I overlook any useful, verifiable facts? 98.247.224.9 (talk) 23:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Look, I am discussing this with you and have made no comment that can be seen as not AGF. If you are attempting a good faith move forward please AGF yourself.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:36, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

In actual point of fact I do see your assertion that I used "this one... overarching source" to support "all that" text as an example of non-good-faith argument. This assertion was obviously false-to-fact because in my VERY FIRST PARAGRAPH I referred to "the references existing in the article." And this is just one example of several in your other comments. From these facts—the ground truth—I conclude that you are not arguing fairly or honestly.98.247.224.9 (talk) 01:29, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

You stated;"The term "alt-left" saw isolated uses from 2015 into early 2017 by both liberal and conservative commentators". Now, perhaps you are just not seeing the above discussions but I have already disputed that and still dispute that. I dispute the 2015 history and that this is common use with both conservative and liberals.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:38, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

UTC)

user: 98.247.224.9 Agree this is an excellent starting point and also aligns with other reliable sources showing usage of the term as far back as 2015 or earlier. It does not appear there are any objections so I would say this is a nice starting point for the article when it comes off of lockdown. I admit I previously thought Trump was responsible for creating the term but there are obviously reliable sources documenting significant usage before Charlottesville. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:301:772D:62D0:D0D2:BEF6:80AE:E760 (talk) 23:48, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Just because there was something called alt-left in 2015 (there was a website but it was not the same thing and sources confirm that) or other uses even in 2016 by Democrats, these are not the same descriptors that the alt-left is supposed to have by the majority of sources. So...I don't believe we should be describing such in blanket terms.--Mark Miller (talk) 23:52, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

user:Mark Miller Is it your contention that the term did not see isolated usage in 2015/2016? Just curious — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.114.214.45 (talk) 23:57, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

What I am saying is that we cannot just say that something labeled in 2015 with the same or similar name is the same subject. In some instances (such as the UK) they are simply not related at all. Care must be made to distinguish what the use was in it's earlier stages. So, for example we might say that the term was used in a different manner by so and so at such and such time but then we would need very careful wording as to not use Wikipedia's voice to claim it is the same "usage or definition" as Sean Hannity or Donald Trump's.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:15, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

Mark, maybe you would find it helpful to remember that the article is about the TERM "alt-left," not any ONE MEANING of the term. That's what I wrote above—a summary of the history of the TERM, based on the reliable sources already referenced in the article plus that one more. If you keep trying to interpret my text as an explanation of just ONE MEANING of the term, you will never get anywhere. Surely the 2015 website was just one isolated (same meaning as "independent," "disconnected," "unrelated," etc.) attempt to coin the term into more common use? And just as surely, both conservatives and liberals have made more isolated attempts to bring the word into more common use since then. Do you get it now? 98.247.224.9 (talk) 01:29, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

The article was created by a now-banned sockpuppet and is trending towards delete, so don't get too carried away. If by some miracle it survives deletion, the focus should shift solely slur/pejorative aspect, as that is the only form in which this term exists. TheValeyard (talk) 23:42, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Where the article came from is now utterly irrelevant since most of the text in it now comes from other editors. Your repeated reminders of that origin are clearly destructive, not constructive. Please stop. Similarly, if the term "alt-left" is coming into broad use by notable, reliable sources as a way to refer to the Antifa movement and other similar movements—as I believe it is, and will continue to be, though I happily stipulate that it's too soon to be absolutely sure this whole thing won't just blow over—then it isn't a pejorative term any more, even if it continues to be used pejoratively by some people. We can't stop that, but we can and should explain it. 98.247.224.9 (talk) 01:29, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

many scholars

This doesn't fly for me. Make a tally. Give a specific number. ScratchMarshall (talk) 04:07, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I had "some commentators have suggested" but was reverted (numerous times) by user:Mark Miller. I have no idea why.