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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 146.96.30.27 (talk) at 03:59, 13 November 2019 (→‎Requested move 12 November 2019). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Was this really a Coup?

Just asking as there was no forceful Military takeover. Yes it was. The opposition is far-right and violent. No, it wasn't a coup, it started as a civilian movement demanding a second round in the election, because of the irregularities that happens during the first round, after the OAS published a preliminary report of the audit of the fist round, the commander in chief of the police and the commander in chief of the armed forces who previously supported Evo Morales asked for his resignation along with the civilians that were demanding the same thing. Rvlvas (talk) 04:32, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Coup d'état?

Which reliable sources are calling it a "coup d'état"? In the sources presented in the article, the word "coup" is used only when they refer to Morales accusations against the opposition.--SirEdimon (talk) 00:29, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell, there are none. The 2019 Bolivian protests page already exists; this new one seems to have been created to push a point of view, and should be deleted.--Rxtreme (talk) 00:39, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Here is one, there are LOTS of sources, if you need more than one please ask. Now please change the title back to what everyone in Bolivia safe a few putschists from the opposition are calling this. Sinekonata (talk) 01:26, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Telesur is far from a reliable source, especially if it involves politics in Latin America. In fact, it's banned. Kingsif (talk) 02:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Politics
If y'all don't like it, send it to AfD, but a coup "is the overthrow of an existing government by non-democratic means" -- exactly like Guaido in Venezuela. Your support of the coup and opposition to the established government does not change the terminology. --LaserLegs (talk) 00:41, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
@LaserLegs: Just a suggestion to alter terminology of that last sentence; we can't judge editors' political affiliations based on questioning the use of 'coup' - a military merely forcing resignation is a more peaceful coup than most, and English sources are at least hesitant to use the term based on lack of information, so Morales supporters could disagree with it. Kingsif (talk) 00:48, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
LaserLegs, which sources you have that supports the idea that the Morales government was overthrown non-democratic means? Or it's just YOUR opinion. Morales disrespected the results of the 2016 Bolivian constitutional referendum and he then frauded the 2019 Bolivian general election (according to the OEA) to keep the power. Resulting in protests and revolts erupting throughout the entire country. He lost support from his country authorities and from the army. About Venezuela, I got be kidding right? Maduro is far from being a democrat. He is a plain and simple dictator and nothing else.--SirEdimon (talk) 00:51, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Spanish language reliable sources are using it freely, e.g. Pagina 12, Argentina and El Universal, Mexico. Spanish for coup = 'golpe'. Kingsif (talk) 00:46, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Kingsif. Página12 is a left-wing newspaper in which most of the articles are opinative and not informative (including the one you linked here). The article on "El Universal" is using the word "coup" in the context of the opinion expressed by the Mexican government. They are not treating this event as a "coup".--SirEdimon (talk) 01:03, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Página 12 is not so fiercely opinionated I wouldn't call it an RS, though. Fully reading the Universal article, I agree with you there. Will do a source review soon. Kingsif (talk) 01:11, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Several governments have already referred to the situation in Bolivia as a coup. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 01:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
For now, altered lead to reflect more accurately. Kingsif (talk) 01:13, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Jay Coop. There's a war of narratives between left and right in Latin America. For now, all the governments that called it a "coup" are left-wing governments.--SirEdimon (talk) 01:20, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
SirEdimon. All the governments and sources that call it a "resignation" or a "reestablishment of democracy" and not calling it a coup are right-wing or outright fascists. Like the government of Bolsonaro for instance. So any source which pushed you to rename the article to "resigntation" should equally be discarded by your own standard. Sinekonata (talk) 01:26, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How about a compromise in the lead? "The situation in Bolivia has been referred to as either a 'political crisis' or a 'coup' by various observers." Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 01:23, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
JayCoop, thanks heaven someone moved the title to "Evo Morales government resignation". After the fiasco of calling this page "Bolivian 2019 coup d'etat" someone tried to called this "Bolivian transition to democracy". Both titles are hard to swallow for a person following the news from the sources in Bolivia: firstly, Morales resigned in an untenable political situation, secondly Morales won three elections with over 60% of votes. Wikipedia needs editors that understand the NPOV policy and use it wisely.Ciroa (talk) 03:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Página/12 is as opinative, ideological and informative as Clarín, La Nación, Infobae or any other newspaper. You can't say a source isn't reliable because it is "leftist".--Bleff (talk) 02:12, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Move to...?

  • Coup d'état is an extremely loaded term. We don't use that kind of language in wiki voice unless there is overwhelming support for it in RS sources. The community declined to refer to Fidel Castro as a dictator on much the same grounds. The current article title fails multiple guidelines including WP:NPOV, WP:SYNTH and WP:REDFLAG. Let's consider a new name. Suggestions anyone? -Ad Orientem (talk) 00:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why not to merge with 2019 Bolivian protests?--SirEdimon (talk) 01:04, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The topic at hand is notable enough to exist as its own article. Take the 2016 Turkish coup d'état attempt and the articles split from the 2019 Hong Kong protests as examples. Jay Coop · Talk · Contributions 01:09, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
2019 Bolivian political crisis? --Semsurî (talk) 01:07, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Evo Morales government resignation?--SirEdimon (talk) 01:15, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • It may be a political crisis tomorrow. It may be called a coup by press. Morales may get arrested. Though I supported the title 'coup' based on the pure definition (effectively overthrown, military involvement), I now recognize WP:CRYSTALBALL comes into play. So far, SirEdimon's is the only non-crystal title. The government has resigned. That's about all we can neutrally say at the moment, so I support a quick move to that and then a naming discussion, especially when things become clearer in the coming weeks. Kingsif (talk) 01:23, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Support Evo Morales government resignation -Ad Orientem (talk) 01:39, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

But I think it is better to change the name into "2019 Bolivian political crisis" because these title already used on infobox. I also agree to change the title to the same name in Spanish language ones (Crisis política en Bolivia de 2019) Hanafi455 (talk) 03:25, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Because they wouldn't, quite simply. The compilation of facts inherent to protests doesn't include the complex political schtick that's appeared. They are different topics. They are different events. The protests article includes all the stuff from before anyone knew that Morales would resign, to put it in exactly your terms. Morales resigning, believe it or not, is not a protest. Kingsif (talk) 05:23, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I see on Spanish Wikipedia, there was a suggestion to rename the article to "Crisis institucional en Bolivia de 2019",which to me sounds like 2019 Bolivian constitutional crisis. Why not change to these title in English? Hanafi455 (talk) 03:42, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

1. you can propose a name change. Anyone can. 2. It's a bit early to come up with a longstanding title. This problem occurs with current event articles all the time. The best thing to do is pick a solid neutral title and wait until a more descriptive one appears in common use. Kingsif (talk) 03:45, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let's wait people. We don't know exactly what it's going on and what will be the results of these events. "2019 Bolivian constitutional crisis" is CRYSTAL in my opinion. Let's stick with "Evo Morales government resignation" for a while and see what happens next. Moving articles all the time like this is counterproductive.--SirEdimon (talk) 03:50, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia should not be a mouthpiece for the US state department narratives, even if most American media is. The events of yesterday are definitionally a coup. The military demanded the resignation of the civilian government, after which a warrant was issued for the arrest of much of the previous government. It's not only a clear cut coup, but a more textbook one than events in Zimbabwe or Turkey, which have been (correctly) classified as such by Wikipedia. Zellfire999 (talk) 11:57, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's irrelevant whether or not it was a coup. As Wikipedia editors our job is not to decide that. Our job as Wikipedia editors is merely to convey what the Reliable Sources state, full stop. As soon as it breaks in to analysis it's WP:NOR. If the NYT runs an article that says "Coup d'État in Bolvia" then we call it a coup, until that point we do not because we don't write our own opinions, no matter how right they may be. The proper venue for calling this a coup without RSs stating it as such is a newspaper, a book, an Op-Ed, etc. but it is not wikipedia. Alcibiades979 (talk) 12:04, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that our job as Wikipedia editors is not to decide on wether or not it was a coup, but strongly disagree that this designation is irrelevant. Instead, we should list which sources reffer to it as a coup - and leave the judgement to the reader. Goodposts (talk) 16:18, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not saying the designation of it being a coup is irrelevant far from it, I'm saying from the standpoint of what we do as editors it's irrelevant as what we do is write what the RSs say. If there's disagreement in the RSs then we write what the the disagreement is, thus allowing the reader to decide. But from the standpoint of Wiki editors, Wiki is a tertiary source thus our job is to write based off of primary and secondary sources. It can be the most blatant coup in the world, but if the RSs say it wasn't, then we say it's not. If Jair Bolsonaro gets voted out of office in a free democratic election, and the RSs state that it was a coup then we call it a coup. This is what I meant by it being irrelevant. Alcibiades979 (talk) 06:17, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
2019 bolivian coup d'etat. It was definitely a coup. It is highly irresponsible not to call it for what it is. He was forced to resign.--Bleff (talk) 02:12, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is more suitable to use the title like this 2019 Bolivian political crisis because 2019 Bolivian coup d'etat sounds more like taking point of view from Latin American leftist governments as the title violates Wikipedia NPOV (Netral point of view). Evo Morales government resignation can also be used as the title sticks. Hanafi455 (talk) 03:03, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It is 100% percent a coup, there is a name for when a head of state is being forced out by the military, its called a coup'd'etat — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.18.219.146 (talk) 11:27, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The title should be returned to 2019 bolivian coup d'etat. It is more clear than ever, the military has taken the streets and Morales has been forced to flee the country. The military overthrowing a country's civilian government is definitionally a coup. Wikipedia should be about facts, the perpetrators of a coup should not be able to throw off the label by simply denying it. Zellfire999 (talk) 13:55, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. Wikipedia's own definition of a coup d'état is "the overthrow of an existing government by non-democratic means; typically, it is an illegal, unconstitutional seizure of power by a dictator, the military, or a political faction.[1]". Regardless of your personal views on Morales, this was definitely an unconstitutional seizure of power by the military, to then hand power to another political faction (the opposition of the Movement for Socialism). Not to call it a coup is not merely irresponsible, it's outright incorrect. KarstenO (talk) 16:38, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
There doesn't seem to be a consensus among the Spanish-language press that this was a golpe de estado. Yes:El Pais El Universal Tele Sur Ambito No: Excelsior Forbes Mexico Neutral: La Nacion Michael E Nolan (talk) 21:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Áñez

First, I'm typing her surname here for all those who don't have character keyboards to copy. Second, does anyone want to help translate her page with me? Kingsif (talk) 02:03, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected request?

In Spanish Wikipedia, the page about Evo Morales government resignation was protected to prevent vandalism so only registered users can edit it. Why this couldn't be same for English Wikipedia because there are many vandalism that edit the article like anonymous users? Hanafi455 (talk) 04:04, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I have requested extended confirmed protection. This should also prevent registered account vandals (the most vandals here have had accounts) as well as IPs. Kingsif (talk) 04:08, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And for what cause should the article be semi-protected? While semiprotection is useful against vandalism, it's important to also note that it discourages new users from contributing to wikipedia. I have so far not seen any major vandalism on this article, that would call for or warrant semi-protection. Goodposts (talk) 18:40, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why I moved to "2019 Bolivian transition to democracy"

I am the person who moved to "2019 Bolivian transition to democracy" That being said, I understand it's far-fetched, and I apologize for its lack of neutrality. I simply did not want it to be called a "coup". Personally, my family is from Bolivia, and I have been closely following the situation there over the past few weeks. As some of you may know, the current set of protests in Bolivia began because Evo Morales manipulated the results of the 2019 election to make it look like he won by a wide margin. This greatly angered many people, who saw it as anti-democratic, leading to the protests. The military and police did not overthow the government. They simply sided with the protesters, leading to the resignation of Evo Morales. Needless to say, this is a victory for the protestors, who have grown tired of Evo's authoritarian tendencies, so calling the situation a coup is insulting to them, especially since that is the term Evo has tried to use to discredit them. However, I also agree that moving the article to the "transition to democracy" is also problematic, as we haven't had time to see how the situation plays out. I therefore think "Evo Morales resignation" is a good compromise. Once again, I apologize for my lack of neutrality. I admit that I know very little about editing Wikipedia. --Ascarboro97 (talk) 04:06, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the explanation. Reading the guide to Wikipedia when you register should help introduce, but some customs aren't covered - like how it's usually impolite to just move a page out of nowhere. Welcome, we value your contributions! I'm sure you'll be of real value around the Latin America pages :) Kingsif (talk) 04:10, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Hi - I understand your position, but ask you to also understand the fact that this is an encyclopedia that attempts to be neutral, and the personal desires of an editor aren't really relevant when writing content for Wikipedia. I'm sure that, in the same vein, a pro-Morales Bolivian could also make the case that he felt cheated by the upturning of the election, the violence of some of the protests and didn't want the article to be associated with a "transition to democracy". We all learn, though, so don't feel personally attacked - wikipedians were just trying to follow WP:NPOV. Best regards, Goodposts (talk) 15:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Obscuring which governments are calling this a coup

The editor Kingsif repeatedly adds text obscuring that leftist Latin American governments (e.g. Cuba, Maduro, the incoming Argentinian government) are calling this a coup. If all the governments calling this a coup are Morales's leftist allies in Latin-America, then we should obviously communicate that in some way, rather than give the mistaken impression that there is a widespread perception among Latin American governments that this was a coup. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 04:37, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

One source describes them as left. Some would say they are fascist, for example. It is unnecessary to give such expansion in the lead when we structured the response section into ideologies. I'm not obscuring anything, don't try and create some supposed conspiracy behind my clean-up, I'm being mindful of NPOV concerns; your phrasing (with the rest of the pre-existing sentence, but you equally didn't bother to rewrite it) suggests that being left-wing is bad. That is the main issue. Kingsif (talk) 04:43, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How about we stick to the sources rather than engage in pointless postmodernist debates about how no one truly knows that the Earth revolves around the sun and whether socialist governments are actually left-wing? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 04:48, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
And then also stick to the WP:NPOV rule that doesn't like painting one particular political leaning as wrong in the lead of an article? Other sources in this article, if you'd like to read some, have a variety of opinions on the political stances of all the countries in Latin America. They're somewhat controversial. We try to tread particularly carefully where that's the case, rather than blast at the start that 'left wing governments call this a loaded term'.
It takes more than a sentence to handle it well. That's what we have body sections for. Expand in the body, the lead doesn't need to as detailed; it's not incorrect that "various Latin American governments have called it a coup", and it's not debatable. Saying left-wing is debatable, especially when not all the left-wing governments have. Kingsif (talk) 05:02, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
My version is that it should say 'some leftist Latin American governments' as the cited RS does. Your claim that mentioning the political persuasion of the governments calling this a coup is to paint them negatively is incomprehensible... just utterly incomprehensible. And there is ZERO dispute as to whether a socialist government is left-wing. "Various" L-American governments is some serious BS that is purely intended to obscure that all the governments calling this a coup (per the body) are leftist allies of Morales, and is intended to mislead readers into thinking there is widespread support among L-American governments for designating this a coup. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 06:08, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It's clear that whatever I say, you will decide I am spouting "some BS" and apparently trying to hide important facts. I'm not going to respond further until you've calmed down or get some reality knocked into you. Other editors are free to reply, perhaps engage some of their opinions. Kingsif (talk) 14:04, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wether or not they are left-wing is irrelevant in this situation. The reaction section is about reporting how internationally-recognized governments have reacted to a given situation. Also, not to argue over logic too much, but if the majority of Latin American countries are "leftist allies" (which most of them aren't), and these "leftist allies" had condemned the event, then subsequently - a majority of Latin American countries would have condemned the event. It's also important to mention that first - not only leftist governments have described the situation as a "coup" and second - not all leftist governments have yet described it as such. Furthermore, such a phrasing implies that left-wing politics or left-wing governments are inherently bad, which is a breach of WP:NPOV. Wether or not a government is left or right-wing should not be something the article concerns itself with. It should merely list which governments issued which reactions - and if interested, the reader can click on the transcluded links to learn more about their politics. Goodposts (talk) 14:32, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
How on Earth is it irrelevant that allies of Morales are going with his language that this was a coup? That's what BBC News[1], Washington Post[2], AFP[3], NY Times[4], The Guardian[5], and CNN[6] reports as relevant context when they describe which governments have mimicked the coup language. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 14:47, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
By that logic, we should also attatch a note to the reactions such as those of Brazil, Colombia and Guaido that they are "right-wing enemies" of Morales and as such their reactions are also invalid? It's either neither or both - picking sides is a violation of WP:NPOV - and do keep in mind this is an article on the Bolivian government resignation, not the Pink Tide. Goodposts (talk) 15:14, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(1) The lede does not mention responses by other actors so there are no descriptions of them that need to be added, but thanks for playing. (2) Do RS characterize nuanced responses to events in Bolivia as responses by the "right-wing enemies of Morales"? If not, then we don't. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:35, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The lead clearly mentions that the Bolivian opposition rejects the 'coup' allegations. Second, yes they do, as a quick example - "Jair Bolsonaro, Brazil’s far-right president, said he was pleased to see Mr. Morales go."[1] Goodposts (talk) 15:46, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
(1) Stop moving the goalposts - first you wanted to describe governments who refused to use the 'coup' language as 'right-wing' enemies of Morales, now you want the Bolivian opposition to be described as 'right-wing' (which is a separate discussion - and again, which needs to be reliably sourced in THAT discussion). (2) Bolsonaro is unquestionably far-right, but he's one leader, he's not mentioned in the lede, and he's not the only one not to resort to the 'coup' language. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:51, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You misunderstand me - I didn't want to do that. I'll assume good faith on your part and say that I was alluding to how that would be the mirror image of what you were doing with "leftist allies" - showing you that both of them are quite improper. I also didn't describe the opposition as "right-wing" (although parts of it may be), don't put words in my mouth. Lastly, the mention of Bolsonaro was in showing you that news outlets were referring to Morales' right-wing opponents, as you specifically requested that be demonstrated to you. Goodposts (talk) 15:54, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Firstly, I reject the implication about Iván Duque, he's a good president, and you may characterize him as a "right winger" but he has done more than any other South American government to offer aid to our brothers fleeing Venezuela. He has an incredibly difficult job dealing not only with his own party but our legislative branch as well. We have massive refugee camps in the east, and over three million refugees whom he has welcomed. Secondly I agree with Snoog. The fact of the matter is that three of the four have abysmal human rights records, and lack democracy. One is Nicolas Maduro who has been characterized as a monster by Pedro Sanchez, the Socialist Prime Minister of Spain, then the next two are Nicaragua and Cuba. If it were Peru, or Uruguay or Panama, fair enough, but it's not. Seems to me like taking Kim Jong Un and Khamenei's opinion and then saying "various Asian countries think y." Alcibiades979 (talk) 15:56, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Wether or not Duque is or was a "good president" is not the topic of the conversation and not relevant as to wether or not he was a "right winger". The refugee camps are also irrelevant, as they have nothing to do with this conversation, and the same goes for his supposed issues with the legislative (and isn't it the primary point of the democratic argument that the President cannot just decree whatever he wishes?). Kim Jong Un or Ayatollah Khamenei's (not left wing, by the way) opinions are not listed or cited anywhere in the article, nor were they ever the object of discussion. The reactions part of the article lists the reactions of various governments. Some of them can be characterized as centre-right, right-wing or even far-right, while others fall on the leftist spectrum. In either case that is also irrelevant, as the position of the ruling party of X country on the left-right political spectrum is not a factor in determining wether their statements are valid or relevant. Lastly, this entire argument is moot, as the point that statements should be published for each country and not completely summarized was part of my original proposal. Goodposts (talk) 16:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're the one who brought him up, not myself. I also thought it was rather non-sequitur. And in the lede it says various Latin American Governments have called this a coup, hence this post. This doesn't have anything to do with the international perceptions section. Alcibiades979 (talk) 17:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I merely mentioned him in passing and not even by name, as an example of a Latin American leader who isn't a "leftist ally" of Morales. The coup allegation started from Morales himself - we merely state that it is backed up by several Latin American countries, but denounced by the nation's opposition. Goodposts (talk) 18:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Photos?

How about photos of this article? i see that only interim bolivian presidents photo was included? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Hanafi455 (talk • contribs) 08:12, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

What do you want photos of? Morales in hiding? If his own military can't find him, good luck getting someone with a camera willing to upload to Wikipedia in there. Kingsif (talk) 14:05, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Palacio Quemado has a picture of the lamppost where Gualberto Villaroel was hanged. It also has a picture of the Palacio Quemado. One is less haunted, but the other is framed better. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:55, November 12, 2019 (UTC)

Relevance of Pablo Iglesias' opinion to this article

For those of you who aren't intimately familiar with Spanish politics, Pablo Iglesias is the head of a Spanish Political party called Podemos, which is popular in Catalunya for Spanish National Elections. Pablo Iglesias has never been the Spanish PM, because of his view on one domestic issue in particular he most likely will not be Spanish PM in the near term, I'm just wondering how his opinion is really relevant to this. He doesn't represent the Foreign Policy views of the Spanish Government. So I'm not really sure that it adds anything to this, his only two qualifications seem to be that he's a politician who speaks Spanish ironically in a region in which Spanish is not the official language. I understand why International Reactions are important but pasting every persons opinion seems irrelevant. Alcibiades979 (talk) 11:00, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Went ahead and removed Iglesias' comment. Personally I'd limit the section to governments and relevant international organization (UN, OAS). Was tempted to remove the Corbyn quote on the same basis, but he's slightly more significant as leader of the opposition instead of a third party so I'd rather get a second opinion. --RaiderAspect (talk) 12:36, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I was looking at the Corbyn quote too. I think it'd probably be more relevant for his own page because it's more indicative of his ideology and Labour's new ideology, but oh well, I think there probably wouldn't be consensus for removing it, plus there's a good chance he'll be next PM of the UK, provided he promises Scotland a new vote, and promises the UK a new Brexit vote to get the Lib Dems on board. And haha, Podemos isn't even a third party anymore, it's now the fourth after Vox. I used to live in Spain, their politics are nuts, it was everything short of a holiday in Barcelona when Rajoy got punched. Alcibiades979 (talk) 12:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Why not remove all international reactions because Its not significant? Can you remove quote from UN Secretary general? Hanafi455 (talk) 13:14, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think ideally it'd not be a list but more a run down something along the lines of "International reactions have been mixed with some countries supporting Morales whilst others have called for peaceful elections. International bodies have further called for an end to violence and swift elections." But I don't have the time at the moment. Just to contextualize how this fits in to world and to give it a quick meta-view. I think sometimes the lists become a way of POV pushing, "look who agrees with my POV it's countries x, y and z." Rather than a true effort to provide a NPOV information to better understanding of the theme. Alcibiades979 (talk) 13:23, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Can you see on the article, third-party reactions are too weak to describe the reactions, seems that i renamed that to Include aftermath of Evo Morales resignation to be more focus about how Bolivian reacted to the announcement. I think this is better NPOV for me. Hanafi455 (talk) 13:30, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Removed Corbyn for not being a national leader, not being a politician to a relevant country, and for being sourced by RT (the only other source I could find for it was Daily Mail, almost as bad). Removed UN for being a copy-paste from the source. Kingsif (talk) 14:06, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Corbyn is cited in credible sources,[2][3] and in addition RT's article cited the original source,[4] and so there shouldn't be any issue with adding it. Corbyn is a very noteworthy person, although I'll agree this his reaction shouldn't be listed as a "UK" reaction, as he is currently not affiliated with the British government. He also probably shouldn't be listed separately under the "international reactions" section, as that is for reactions given by the governments UN-member states and not leaders of political parties, however influential they may be in a separate world power. Instead - considering there are already quite a few relevant non-state reactions, how about we add a non-state organization heading, as was done in previous articles? I think that sounds like a fair compromise. Goodposts (talk) 15:07, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I could be persuaded, but I foresee a lot of headaches around deciding which non-state reactions to include. Which reactions are significant? Do we try to achieve geographical balance, or should responses from the Americas be favoured? What about the mixture of criticism and support? --RaiderAspect (talk) 00:58, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/10/world/americas/evo-morales-bolivia.html
  2. ^ https://www.thenational.ae/world/the-americas/bolivia-s-president-evo-morales-resigns-amid-protests-over-disputed-election-1.935902
  3. ^ https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/11/evo-morales-steps-reaction-latin-america-191111052010737.html
  4. ^ https://twitter.com/jeremycorbyn/status/1193657983219257344

Proposal to rewrite the International Reaction Section

As per a recommendation by a fellow Wiki editor I propose rewriting the international reaction section. Currently it is more or less in the form of a list with quotes from Twitter. My proposal is to rewrite this to say something along the lines of "International reactions to the resignation of Evo Morales have been mixed. Some countries have called these events a coup, whilst others have called for transparent elections overseen by the OAS. The Secretary General of the UN has stated: "x." As brought up in another section, is it really relevant that Jair Bolsonaro said that the coup was perpetrated by Morales or that Jeremy Corbyn has condemned these events in the strongest possible terms? This can be restated by just saying that it has been polarizing for various countries and has evoked strong reactions from some global leaders. Without copying and pasting twitter from Twitter. I'd like to get some sort of consensus on this because I know with breaking news stories particularly to do with politics people can have different visions. Alcibiades979 (talk) 13:38, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think that we should delineate sections for official reactions, and then perhaps add another non-state sections for relevant regional or global political forces, should their inclusion is relevant. The reactions of the UN, as well as Heads of State are definitely relevant and should be listed. Simply stating that it had "evoked strong reactions from some leaders" is extremely vague and not very informative. So I agree with you on separating reactions, but I'd argue they shouldn't be purged. Should be alphabetized, though. Also, while twitter sources can be used, they aren't prefferable - and should be replaced by published sources where possible. WP:QUOTEFARM should also be avoided, and the published statements should be summarized in a way that conveys the original meaning behind the reaction without directly quoting each word. Goodposts (talk) 14:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Why are the specific reactions relevant? It's sufficiently informative to our readers to say that reactions to the resignation were mixed, particularly in the Americas. Saying exactly which countries said exactly what is excessive detail. This isn't like the situation in Venezuela where the stances of various countries have a lasting effect on which vying government they conduct diplomacy with. This is (as of yet) a done deal, so a list of reactions is essentially just rehosting a peanut gallery. 199.247.46.4 (talk) 04:49, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedians must understand that different countries may have very different laws

I will cite impeachment proceedings in neighboring countries. In Brazil the Judiciary participates in the conduction of the impeachment process, which is fairly well described in their Constitution and Laws. But an impeachment process may last as much as 8 years, as in the Mensalao scandal. Brazil had a dictatorship from the mid sixties through the mid eighties, but with several different people acting as president. In Paraguay there is one single article in the Constitution that deals with impeachments (Art. 225) and lets the Congress to establish the procedure in a case by case basis. There is no Judiciary intervention in the impeachment. Paraguay suffered a very long dictatorship by a single ruler during 35 years (General Alfredo Stroessner) and the new Constitution made it easy to impeach a President to avoid such accumulation of power. (By the way, the Wikipedia article about the impeachment of Fernando Lugo is extremely badly written. There is a list of points to be corrected in the Talk Page, but nobody seems to care). In Bolivia there is an article in the Law of the Organizing of the Armed Forces, Article 20.b., that allows the military to oversee and analize internal conflicts to make recommendations to the concerned parties. That is exactly what General Kaliman did. Something like that will be unthinkable in neighboring Paraguay, due to the manner that the Constitution and Laws were drafted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 181.126.201.186 (talk) 15:39, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot for the info, I added it to lede. Other editors can provide the relevant references. I can't right now. Wikipedia really tends to leave important bits like this one out -- the information you provided, if correct, single-handedly refutes accusations that this was a coup.Vandergay (talk) 20:35, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Vandergay: That can wait until someone provides a source for it. Note that directly citing the law would not be sufficient here; the law would need to be mentioned in the context of the current events, to avoid synthesis. — cmonghost 👻 (talk) 21:44, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Forced government resignation

If we're not going to use the term coup d'etat for the heading at least put in the word — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.50.103.107 (talk) 15:56, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted Text

Regarding this edit. The text is attributed to Morales himself so I have no idea why WP:ATTRIBUTE is being referred to. As for WP:DUE, its Morales stated reason for resignation, is his stated reason not of high relevance to this article? 103.127.65.220 (talk) 17:52, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I fully agree, and following no dispute from other editors edited it back in, though I've altered it in a way as to assuade one editor's concerns that a portion of the text could constitute WP:SYNTH. Goodposts (talk) 16:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Tone of article.

The tone of the article is far from neutral. I will try to look for more Reliable Sources in both languagues, while also improving the Background of the resignation of Evo Morales. Some more pictures of other opposition figures will be fine.Mr.User200 (talk) 21:59, 11 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2019

Change title to: "Bolivian Coup d'etat" Silverinacertaintown (talk) 01:56, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. Requests to rename pages can be made at WP:RM. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 02:16, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2019

add a statement from senator and presidential candidate Bernie Sanders. "I am very concerned about what appears to be a coup in Bolivia, where the military, after weeks of political unrest, intervened to remove President Evo Morales. The U.S. must call for an end to violence and support Bolivia’s democratic institutions." https://twitter.com/BernieSanders/status/1194000920696229889 24.93.31.58 (talk) 02:11, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done. It's not clear what changes you want to make; please make a precise request. In any case, it's unclear how this would improve the article. –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 02:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Who is calling this a coup?

Current lead has

Morales and close allies to Morales, particularly the governments of Cuba, Mexico, Nicaragua, the disputed government of Venezuela, and Argentina's president-elect have called the demand a coup d'état,[1][2][3][4]

The only countries I can find mentioned in those articles are Venezuela and the incoming Argentine government (both in the Guardian article). Do we have reliable sources for the others? Rxtreme (talk) 06:01, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

If you go to international responses in this article it has the sources. I'd copy and paste them here, however I'm feeling too lazy; need more coffee. Alcibiades979 (talk) 06:32, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My Citation of BLP in a Rollback on the page

Just wanted to state why I cited BLP, so as to show that I wasn't using the term frivolously to stifle editing. First BLP doesn't just apply to pages about people, but any page which speaks about living people. Secondly the passage I was referring to is this: "After Morales's victory, rightwing opposition groups, led in part by Fernando Camacho, kidnapped and tortured political officials.[5][6]"

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Evo_Morales_government_resignation&oldid=925777018

Accusing a living person and a politician of leading right-wing groups to kidnap and torture political officials is extreme, and it needs rock solid sources to back it. In my opinion the Gray Zone, and the Peoples' Dispatch weren't sufficient to back such a statement, so I cited BLP in rolling back this edit. Once again I didn't mean to stifle editing or anything like that, but I think it's important to have caution when dealing with controversial statements about the people involved in this event. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons Alcibiades979 (talk) 08:18, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good call. Even without the BLP concerns those don't look like good sources. --RaiderAspect (talk) 08:27, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Political crisis?

Since the situation seems to be quite chaotic and infighting between factions is degenerating, I suggest that this page is called "2019 Bolivian political crisis" or "2019 unrest in Bolivia", I think that would be more appropriate.-Karma1998 (talk) 09:00, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

2019 unrest in Bolivia is already used on this page 2019 Bolivian protests. So It is unnecessary to duplicate the title that in facts the same thing. Hanafi455 (talk) 11:29, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly favor 2019 Bolivian political crisis. I also think these two articles should merged under that title. Charles Essie (talk) 16:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Move request

The current article title seems really awkward. It seems like Resignation of the government of Evo Morales would be a more natural title for this article. Blaylockjam10 (talk) 09:47, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

While the title seems to be natural, but you must think again that not only Evo Morales government has resigned, but other políticans also resigned as well. So for more appropriate and neutral title would be 2019 Bolivian political crisis since the resignation is not only for Evo Morales government. Hanafi455 (talk) 11:34, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly favor 2019 Bolivian political crisis. I also think this article should be merged with 2019 Bolivian protests under that title. Charles Essie (talk) 16:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I strongly favor 2019 Bolivian coup d'état. The military forced the resignation of the President, and have suppressed demonstrations against his removal (belying their stated aim to avoid confronting protesters in demanding Morales's resignation). Simply because the perpetrators do not call it a coup is an untenable reason to deny its factuality. In fact, the circumstances of this coup are extremely similar to that of the 2009 Honduran coup d'état and bears some resemblance to the 2004 Haitian coup d'état (which was at least preceded by a rebellion of sorts) as well. It is utterly inconsistent to refer to this as anything else.Zellfire999 (talk) 17:58, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the current title is too stripped of context. Yes, the government did resign, but it is indisputable that it only did so under military pressure. The fact that not only Morales, but also plenty of members of his administration and even their families have fled the country further lends credence to the claim that this wasn't an ordinary resignation. In my opinion, it could be interpreted as a coup, as it does constitute a forced resignation at the hands of the military. I don't find the argument that it was done to "protect democracy" to hold much weight either, as the events took place after Morales had already agreed to opposition demands to hold an OAS-monitored re-run of the elections. Furthermore, even if the last edition of the electoral results were disregarded, Morales was still in first place - the difference would have been on wether or not a runoff would have to be held, and in any case I don't hold a military intervention to be a perticularly "democratic" act. The fact that western countries, such as Spain, are also condemning the military involvement I think is evidence enough that it is more than just a case of a left-right political battle. For these reasons, I would generally agree if it gained the designation of a coup détat, however, I am aware that some editors disagree with this, and Bolivia's opposition definitely does as well. In the interests of fairness and neutrality, we should take all reasonable and well-cited views into account and make decisions based of well-researched sources and community consensus. It would probably be difficult to obtain consensus for such a move, though not impossible depending on how it plays out. It might take some time to see how this event is reported on past it's end and wether or not most reliable sources would reffer to it as a coup or not. Presently, it's a mixed bag. Goodposts (talk) 19:15, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I, too, like both 2019 Bolivian political crisis and 2019 Bolivian coup d'état better than the current title. Davey2116 (talk) 22:55, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Verification request

Per WP:PAYWALL, could someone please verify the information regarding "gang attacks" Cochabamba, and the water supply issue? I am unable to find any other sources confirming that. The provided sources is behind a paywall: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/11/world/americas/bolivia-evo-morales.html BeŻet (talk) 13:45, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@BeŻet: - That source does not mention anything about "gang attacks", in fact it doesn't use the term "gang" or "attack" even once in the entire article. It instead talks mostly of Morales' resignation and subsequent power vacuum and describes two incidents - the first, in which several hundred pro-Morales protesters, some of which carrying sticks, arrived at La Paz and were accused by police of vandalizing offices, and a second, in which police and armed forces joined together with protesters to form barricades to prevent pro-Morales demonstrators from reaching the centre of the town. It does mention that drinking water was cut off to parts of El Paz an El Alto, but states that the reason for that was unknown. Goodposts (talk) 15:30, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Goodposts, in that case I'll remove that claim as it's unsourced. On a similar note, does this source mention anything about burning police centers? BeŻet (talk) 15:38, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
"Hundreds of supporters of Mr. Morales made their way on late afternoon Monday toward the center of La Paz from the mountains surrounding the city, some of them armed with sticks. As they approached, their chants of “here we go, civil war” could be heard echoing above the city. The police said the armed group had vandalized police offices, causing panic in some neighborhoods where people blocked their doors with old furniture to protect stores and houses. After receiving requests for help from the national police and civilian politicians, the armed forces announced Monday night they would mobilize to defend gas, water and electricity services around the capital. Army and police units will also begin joint patrols around the city, according to the national police."..."For weeks after the disputed election results, demonstrations paralyzed much of the country, and groups supporting the president have roughed up protesters."
As a side note, the article's starting to sound a bit en contra of the protestors in sections against the protestors as per the same article: "There was little to no violence in Santa Cruz, a center of the opposition. A festival-like mood prevailed there, with people celebrating on the streets and waving flags." Alcibiades979 (talk) 15:59, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
No problem, @BeŻet:. What Alcibiades979 pasted is what the article wrote, more or less the same as my summary. As for your WSJ request - the article mentions a local newspaper had reported that residents of Chepare had allegedly burned "police posts" after an unnamed local activist called for Morales' supporters to "fight back". It then goes on about how Mexico condemned the alleged coup and that 20 government officials had been given asylum in Mexico. Goodposts (talk) 16:12, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you both for verifying! BeŻet (talk) 16:49, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
You're very welcome! Goodposts (talk) 17:14, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 12 November 2019

Evo Morales government resignation → 2019 Bolivian military memorandum – This seems to fit every characteristic of a military memorandum (example 1 example 2). Army gives an ultimatum to president to resign, which results in his resignation. Calling this article "Morales government resignation" makes it seem as if it was voluntary, while it was forced by the army KasimMejia (talk) 17:33, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support I have to say this is a very interesting proposition and not one that popped into my head. "Military memorandum" is a good way to look at it - that it was decision taken by a civilian government, but only after a military demand. It is more or less proven by this point that the resignations were triggred by the armed forces' declarations, and were seeing this being cited as a military intervention not only by Morales' allies, but also neutral and western countries, such as Spain. Meanwhile, I also agree that while "government resignation" is something that happened, it strips the act itself of the context in which it took place. At the same time, "military memorandum" avoids the use of the word "coup", which I know has been very contentious and was the cause of much dispute. I believe that this proposition is NPOV compliant enough, as it avoids language that either praises or condemns the event. Though I'd definitely be interested to hear other editors thoughts on the subject. PS. One issue, though, could be in finding sources, which reliably reffer to the situation as such. Goodposts (talk) 18:58, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Against We should just follow what the sources say. This takes the contention out of it all. Wiki has a list of RSs for news articles there are a couple of others that can be added like NYT, and we say what they say. That way it's entirely straight forward. I'm also reticent to change the name with such a recent event. I think it's better to let it play out, then the result will be more clear, and well sourced. Alcibiades979 (talk) 20:31, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Against the request of resignation that bolivian armed forces sent to Evo Morales was not an "ultimatum" but a "suggestion", which is a legal atributtion the military have. The article 20 of the Law N°1405[7] (Organic law of bolivian armed forces) states:

Artículo 20.- The attribution and responsabilities of the military high command are: [...] b. To analize inner and foreign troubled situations to suggest to whom it may concern the apropiate solutions.

If we analize de facts strictly, the bolivian armed forces acted according to law.--Elelch (talk) 22:56, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this title "2019 Bolivian military memorandum" seems too spesific as the title indicates in favor of military opinion, which violates NPOV. The current title "Evo Morales government resignation" also too spesific only for Evo Morales government and not about other politicians. For me, this title should be 2019 Bolivian political crisis because more politicians and officials other than Evo Morales government also resigned as well. For example police Chief. For me, 2019 Bolivian political crisis seems to more neutral. Indonesian Wikipedia has the article about it (Krisis pasca-pemilu Bolivia 2019). But this title, Along with 2019 Bolivian protests should be separated, like 2013–2014 Thai political crisis and 2014 Thai coup d'état there are two different things despite related events. This is a reason why you should request like this:

I think it is my opinion about the article title. Hanafi455 (talk) 21:35, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Against, agree with Hanafi455, 2019 Bolivian political crisis would be a better NPOV title.Degen Earthfast (talk) 22:47, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Support I think 2019 Bolivian coup d'etat is the only truly accurate title, but 2019 Bolivian military memorandum would be an improvement over the current misleading title.Zellfire999 (talk) 23:55, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Despite you support to called them 2019 Bolivian coup d'etat, but i think the title is more like leftist point of view for me because how leftist called then. It is harder to reach consensus how like the article title was, even in Spanish Wikipedia there were strong disagreement about how to called that title also as well as Spanish and English-language media there was divided over whether this called "coup" or not. The current Evo Morales government resignation or more neutral 2019 Bolivian political crisis should be used even there was a opinion that what happened on Bolivia is a coup, particulary the Latin American leftist governments. Hanafi455 (talk) 00:19, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose don't see any WP:Reliable Sources. --RaiderAspect (talk) 00:25, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose The subject of the article is too broad to mention only the military declaration, without considering the fraud reports, protests and audit. All of these factors resulted in the resignation. The consequence should be the title at best, not the causes. To include the whole situation, 2019 Bolivian political crisis may be better. Still, I would like to warn against WP:TOOSOON and consider that this an ongoing situation. Once definite government is constituted the discussion may be easier. --Jamez42 (talk) 00:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. The English version of this article now place under Article title dispute tag Template:POV-title same as Spanish version of Wikipedia does as there was a strong disagreement over what the article title was. There was a coup, resignation, memorandum, etc. Many of editors were disagree. I think English and Spanish Wikipedias are only two versions of Wikipedia whose the article title is disputed. But not for French, Portuguese or Persian version does because there are simply translate from Spanish or English version with local sources. But because English was global language, the discussion is very interesting for editors around the world. Hanafi455 (talk) 01:02, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move to 2019 Bolivian political crisis This move request is falling off the edge of the world, and the clock is ticking. Let's be honest, no consensus will emerge about any military coup, at least until it becomes blatantly irrefutable. But the current "government resignation" title is way too narrow and bland. Let's move it to "political crisis" - which it clearly is, because there are at least two opposing factions and a general air of national instability - and then later we can debate more specific terms. SteveStrummer (talk) 03:03, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Move back to the status quo (coup) before move to 2019 Bolivian military memorandum: Evo said since the beginning of protest that had there been any evidence of fraud he would launch a re-election. So of course he is endorsing a reelection. However what happened is the military blatantly ask Evo and MAS members to resign, which is, by definition, a coup for sure. Somebody broke the status quo of the article and unilaterally renamed it from a coup to a resignation, which is the problem we face right now. --146.96.30.27 (talk) 03:55, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

References

References

  1. ^ "Bolivian president Evo Morales resigns after election result dispute". The Guardian. 10 November 2019. Retrieved 10 November 2019.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
  2. ^ "Bolivia's beleaguered President Morales announces resignation". Al Jazeera. Retrieved 2019-11-10.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
  3. ^ Teruggi, Marco. "Bolivia: la derecha apura el golpe contra Evo Morales | Insisten con la renuncia del Presidente, a pesar del llamado a nuevas elecciones". PAGINA12. Retrieved 2019-11-11.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
  4. ^ "Bolivia: Morales warns of coup d'etat over police mutiny". Deutsche Welle. 9 November 2019. Retrieved 2019-11-10.{{cite web}}: CS1 maint: url-status (link)
  5. ^ "The Real Reason U.S. Media Won't Call Evo Morales' Ouster in Bolivia a "Coup"". In These Times.
  6. ^ "Bolivia coup led by Christian fascist paramilitary leader and multi-millionaire – with foreign support". Gray Zone.
  7. ^ "Law N° 1405" (PDF). Retrieved 30 December 1992. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |accessdate= (help)

Yes it's a coup d'état

Having the military and police point a gun and force the democratically elected president, vp, and senate president is a coup. AHC300 (talk) 18:08, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Absolutely it is a coup d'état. There is no question about it. The Bolivians are in the street right now to counter the putsch and the military and police are defending the institutional putschists from them. The problem is that this whole Wikipedia page and the discussion are dominated by equally fascist people who will gladly silence the plight of the indigenous people who saw their democracy robbed. Sinekonata (talk) 01:26, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Is this were we talk about accusations of rigged elections?Degen Earthfast (talk) 23:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What's interesting to note is that Morales was open to new elections after protests occurred. Also, it's interesting to note that the polls conducted right before the election were in line with what the election results turned out to be. In regards to the quick vote issues, rural areas are heavily in favor of Morales, hence the rise in Morales' lead in late quick polls. However, none of that should matter. Rigged election or not, dictator or democratically elected official, he was forced out of office. This is certainly a coup. —SPESH531Other 02:14, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
What is interesting to note is Evo said since the beginning of protest that had there been any evidence of fraud he would launch a re-election. So of course he is endorsing a reelection. However what happened is the military blatantly ask Evo and MAS members to resign, which is, by definition, a coup for sure. Somebody broke the status quo of the article and unilaterally renamed it from a coup to a resignation, which is the problem we face right now. So don't be evasive by showing the non-coup part and conclude there's no coup. --146.96.30.27 (talk) 03:55, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2019

Jeanine Añez is now officially the new President of Bolivia, who succeeded according to constitutional laws. Leprechauncio (talk) 23:27, 12 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The article says that now. RudolfRed (talk) 01:48, 13 November 2019 (UTC)[reply]
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