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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Polihale (talk | contribs) at 06:01, 2 August 2020 (→‎"The" ??: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): KennyThayer (article contribs). This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 January 2019 and 10 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Jkappss (article contribs).

Based in Ashburn, Virginia

The Washington Redskins are headquartered in Ashburn, VA. I'm going to change to box at the bottom (similar to what the New York Jets have).

"Recentism" and the reporting of a significant event in the opening section

@Sabbatino:, and certainly others:

If a famous member of the team or organization died in an accident, would the reporting of that event in the opening section be called "recentism"?

The Washington Post, among other news organizations, has reported that the name of the team will certainly change, the major sponsors and the other NFL team owners now opposing its continuation.

"Recentism is a phenomenon on Wikipedia where an article has an inflated or imbalanced focus on recent events." This clearly applies to the content of the article as a whole.

Failing to give a recent event it due weight is certainly imbalance. --WriterArtistDC (talk) 13:17, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. I can see no way that a one sentence, fully soured, addition to an article of this size and longevity would fit any of the listed Wikipedia:Recentism criteria nor the unlisted, but used in some cases, criteria. Based on the subject matter's history, it seems to pass the WP:10 year test. Similar text was also an addition to the existing section covering the issue. No editors have claimed "Recentism" there, or at the Washington Redskins name controversy article on similar editing.
At most, the editor Sabbatino should have used the Recentism tag ({{Recentism}}) template rather than removing a good-faith edit. Discussing it first here would have also been a preferred option. – ░▒▓ №∶72.234.220.38 (talk) 05:34, 6 July 2020 (UTC) ▓▒░[reply]
Since the reversion of my contribution occurred on a holiday weekend, I will give this attempt to avoid edit warring a little more time, but if there is no more discussion I plan to restore the content, now reported by many reliable sources as a major change in the history of the team.--WriterArtistDC (talk) 13:06, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have to agree that we should mention, briefly, that the team is reviewing the name in the lead. But keep it short and simple in the lead, with more detail in the body. Calidum 14:19, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with both of Calidum's points. The lede is a summary and therefore should not contain too much detail. Also, words like "now," "currently," etc. should be avoided per WP:CURRENTLY. Wikipedia isn't a news source and an article should not be "reporting" on events. See also WP:NOTNEWS. 1995hoo (talk) 14:26, 6 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Ditto Lede = SSS; short, simple, sourced (as it was in this case, but also keeping in mind WP:CURRENTLY, which was not). – ░▒▓ №∶72.234.220.38 (talk) 18:38, 6 July 2020 (UTC) ▓▒░[reply]
The reports on the supposed name change today are currently in the lead, though I at least tweaked it to say "reported" as opposed to anything the team has formally announced. Ideally, I wouldn't have these reports in the lead if the team hasn't publicly confirmed it.—Bagumba (talk) 11:39, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now that the team has put out an official release stating they are "retiring" the name and logo, what do we do with this page? Does the retirement take effect immediately (and we should temporarily move this page to something like "Washington DC NFL team" until they announce the new name)? Or do we just keep it as is and move the page title when the new name comes out? Canuck89 (Speak with me) 13:41, July 13, 2020 (UTC)
    The relevant policy is WP:NAMECHANGES. Still, the team hasn't announced a new name, and it's hard to imagine sources converging on a new common name in the interim.—Bagumba (talk) 13:59, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The problem here is that some sources already weren't using the name "Redskins" for other reasons having nothing to do with whether it was the actual name, which of course it clearly was (and still is). No doubt some media sources will jump on the bandwagon now. I'd suggest the best policy is what I say below: Look to the team's own communication on the issue, which is pretty darn clear. 1995hoo (talk) 14:08, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Name Change: "Will" versus "Officially retired"

Since we're having a ton of back-and-forth editing, I think we should just keep the name and debate here instead.

I personally vote against the name change because the source itself says "will" which means it's about to change. All other news articles may be reporting that it is retired, but it seems it is not... yet. Thoughts? srsrox BlahBlahBlah... 13:42, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

There is no debate. The team's press release is clear: They are still named the Washington Redskins and will remain such until they finish the process and announce the new name. Here's the text of their release, with the paragraph breaks omitted for ease of copying here because I don't know how to create a "block quote" on a talk page: "On July 3rd, we announced the commencement of a thorough review of the team's name. That review has begun in earnest. As part of this process, we want to keep our sponsors, fans and community apprised of our thinking as we go forward. Today, we are announcing we will be retiring the Redskins name and logo upon completion of this review. Dan Snyder and Coach Rivera are working closely to develop a new name and design approach that will enhance the standing of our proud, tradition rich franchise and inspire our sponsors, fans and community for the next 100 years." (Source: https://www.redskins.com/news/washington-redskins-retiring-name-logo-following-review ) That's it. The boldfaced text is clear. Wikipedia "consensus" cannot change this. The article is to remain "Washington Redskins" until the team itself announces what the new name is. Also, let's stop using "officially." People on Wikipedia like to throw around the stupid word "official" and "officially" as though it somehow increases credibility. This is a fine example of where overly-zealous editors want to use that word in a demonstrably incorrect way. 1995hoo (talk) 13:49, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I figured it'd be better to have a clear posting about this, thanks. (By the way, some news sites are saying "official". That isn't my word.) I agree because official source trumps the new sites. srsrox BlahBlahBlah... 13:50, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The article really just plain needs to be locked down for the time being because this is going to be impossible to control. 1995hoo (talk) 13:53, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. By the way, I wanted to post a source so you know where editors are getting the "officially retired" wording: https://nypost.com/2020/07/13/washington-redskins-officially-retire-name-logo/ srsrox BlahBlahBlah... 13:54, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, agreed that it should remain with the Redskins name per the press release. It's unfortunate that many news sources are reporting it as a case of it happening with immediate effect. only (talk) 13:57, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose move per reasons above. The team itself is the most authoritative source and their press release on Twitter says they will retire "Redskins" once they pick a new name. So the title should change from "Redskins" to the new name once it is announced, rather than go to a generic "Washington NFL team" placeholder. Frank AnchorTalk 14:09, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This isn't a requested move. (If this was an RM, I'd agree with you.) O.N.R. (talk) 14:18, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure that "upon completion of review" means what you think it does? Maybe it means that their review is officially complete, so the name is officially retired. Tom Danson (talk) 14:25, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The statement also says that the review they announced on July 3 "has begun." So the "has begun" suggests it's on-going and that this is merely an update on an aspect determined during the review rather than the conclusion of the review. The review is about the team identity (including determining a new name), not merely about whether or not to keep the name "Redskins." only (talk) 14:29, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think the key words are "will be retiring." "Will be," written in the future tense. I don't see how anyone can claim that verb form somehow connotes that the change has already occurred. 1995hoo (talk) 14:47, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Many articles are saying they have officially retired their name and logo. Seems like Wikipedia is behind. Shouldn't we make the accurate current changes. I'll put in citations. Samurai Kung fu Cowboy (talk) 16:09, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Unfortunately, those other sources are wrong. The press release clearly says they'll be using the name until the end of the review process. Wikipedia isn't behind; it's going with the correct information. only (talk) 16:13, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, the ESPN website has officially stopped using the name and logo and has begun just using 'Washington'. As a Wikipedian, I Support the move to a new article, even if it is only to move again after the new team name and mascot/logo/colors are revealed. Ryecatcher773 (talk) 23:45, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The team is still the Redskins even if ESPN stops referring to them as such. We'll keep it as Redskins until the team stops calling themselves the Redskins. only (talk) 23:59, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Moving it now only means we have to move it again once the new name is revealed (supposedly in the next two weeks). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 09:24, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
As a practical matter, it's rather inaccurate to claim the name "Washington Redskins" is inappropriate here on the basis of media sources not using that name, as it's well-known that various media sources already refused to use it. I don't recall anyone refusing to use "Washington Bullets" after Abe Pollin announced his intention to change that team's name, for example, even though it was quite some time before they rolled out "Wizards" as the replacement. The Redskins situation is a little bit odd due to some people objecting to the current name for various reasons. I think this is an excellent example of a situation where Wikipedia's elevation of verifiability over accuracy simply doesn't apply, because in this case the team's own press release is sufficient for both verification and accuracy. The team determines the name, not the media, and in any event it's inappropriate to make ESPN the arbiter of these things as though their position somehow controls over everyone else's. 1995hoo (talk) 12:53, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Support Here's my two cents: it seems obvious by now that multiple, reputable news sources have stopped using the name "Washington Redskins", and are now simply referring to the team as the "Washington" NFL team (here are the reputable sources I mentioned: NBCSports.com/Washington
USAToday.com ESPN.com NFL.com).With that in mind, I suggest that all other editors who have so far commented vote as to whether the title of the article should be changed to simply "Washington NFL team", at least until the team unveils its new nickname and logo, whenever that may be. Personally, I vote in favor of changing the article title to "Washington NFL team", but I am willing to listen and discuss in hopes of reaching a WP:CONSENSUS here, seeing as how I cannot unilaterally move the article title myself. Charlesaaronthompson (talk) 22:32, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I still say we wait, at least up until it gets closer to Week 1 (certainly the team will have at least come up with a placeholder name by then). If we move it to a generic "Washington (NFL franchise)" then we might have to move it again just days later. This is already going to be pretty messy as we have to change several related templates and wikilinks too. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 09:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose until the team itself announces a new name, for the reasons already stated. This is a situation where it doesn’t matter that some media organizations say "Washington NFL team" or the like—it’s indisputable that the team itself is still named the Redskins and will remain so until such time as they adopt a new name. It’s also indisputable that some reputable media outlets, or personnel within media outlets, have refused to say "Redskins" for several years now—for example, here in the DC area, the late Jim Vance, anchor on NBC-4, stopped using it on the air in 2013 (and he had been a huge Redskin fan for years, wore team logo paraphernalia, etc.). But nobody could seriously contend that meant the name wasn’t "Redskins." The fact that more of them are doing it now after the team said there will be a new name in the future doesn’t change things at all. If anything, it might merit a one-sentence mention in the article, something along the lines of "Despite the future tense used in the team's announcement, many media sources immediately stopped using the name 'Redskins.'" That would be accurate, it would be relatively non-controversial, and it would address the very good logistical point Dissident93 makes above. 1995hoo (talk) 11:48, 22 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Phrasing for lead sentence re: review

Trying to find the best way to phrase the sentence in the lead about the review to emphasize that the review is still on-going. Current phrasing is: After conducting a review of the name,[8][9] on July 13, 2020, the team announced they will retire the "Redskins" name.

This phrasing makes it sound like the review is over. The press release from the team (https://www.redskins.com/news/washington-redskins-retiring-name-logo-following-review) states that the review is on-going. It says the "review has begun" and that the name will be retired "upon completion of this review."

I think a better phrasing is something like On July 13, 2020, the team announced they will retire the "Redskins" name upon the completion of a review of the team's name and identity.

Thoughts on the best approach? only (talk) 14:10, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I just made a tweak to the lead because I caught that too. See [1]. Calidum 15:00, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think that your change covers it well. Thanks! only (talk) 15:03, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I made a further change to cut down on the prose, we also don't need any exact dates because that isn't important in the longterm (can you name the exact date when renamed from the Braves to Redskins or just the year?) Once the new name is announced the section will be re-written anyway. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:07, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
July 5, 1933, but that's not the point. O.N.R. (talk) 18:23, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Old Naval Rooftops, I'd honestly be shocked if you didn't just look that up. But yeah, just writing "on this day the team did this, on this day the team followed up" is just bad WP:RECENTISM writing in the style of WP:PROSELINE and should be avoided. We should be writing for a historical perspective, in which exact dates aren't that notable (in 95% of cases anyway and especially in the lead, which should be summarized per WP:LEAD). ~ Dissident93 (talk) 18:48, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Will the history be that of the ‘Redskins’?

As of writing, this team is still the ‘Redskins’. This is a question about the future. When a new name is announced — just to be specific let’s call it the Omegas — will the history be rewritten? ¿That is, will wording change as follows?

  • “All of the Redskins' league titles were attained during two 10-year spans.” → “All of the Omegas' league titles were attained during two 10-year spans.”
  • “The Redskins finished the 1984 season with an 11–5 record” → “The Omegas finished the 1984 season with an 11–5 record”.

My preference is, in general, not to rewrite history: good and bad, it is what it is. But for certain a decision will be needed. Please express a preference. JDAWiseman (talk) 20:05, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Glancing at other teams with histories like this, I see a variety of approaches. Oklahoma City Thunder mostly splits its Seattle history to another article; in the lead it's basically set up as "In Seattle... X was achieved" and "In Oklahoma City... Y was achieved." Other articles refer to the team as "The franchise" when referring to the collective history (i.e. achievements across its whole history). In New Orleans Pelicans, they use the team nickname at the time when referring to that period of history. So for your 1984 example, they'd say Redskins instead of Omegas. only (talk) 20:23, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
History of the Washington Redskins will likely be renamed "History of the Washington Omegas", but any reference to a specific season in which the team was called the Redskins will refer to that team as the Redskins. Any reference to an overview of the franchise will likely change to the new name ("the Omegas have won five league championships in their history"). History won't be rewritten here, but when speaking about the overview of the franchise, only the new name will likely be used. Eagles 24/7 (C) 00:13, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
While the circumstances surrounding the name change are unprecedented (as far as I know), there are plenty of examples of teams changing names while "retaining their history," and this name change should be handled similarly to those situations. The Redskins themselves already have changed their name a few times (from the Boston Braves to the Boston Redskins to the Washington Redskins), and the corresponding sections on their history use the name for the team at that time. Everything outside of referring to the team in their historical context should be swapped over to the new name. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 03:39, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think we have an obvious local-area example with the Washington Bullets changing their name a while back. (Come to think of it, that franchise probably has more name changes than any other in the four major sports leagues: Chicago Packers to Chicago Zephyrs to Baltimore Bullets to Capital Bullets to Washington Bullets to Washington Wizards.) Their most recent name change was probably about as close as it comes circumstance-wise to the Redskins' situation, given that Abe Pollin had decided "Bullets" unacceptably connoted gun violence. Their history still uses all the names, and their banners in Verizon Center pretty much all say "Bullets" (as the Wizards, they only have one division championship). The situation is decidedly distinct from situations like the original Cleveland Browns moving to Baltimore and "leaving their history behind." 1995hoo (talk) 11:28, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We should follow the spirit of MOS:SURNAME, where we use a person's name at the time of the period being discussed. In this case, refer to Redskins when talking about a specific related season. Anything about the franchise as a whole should probably use the new name.—Bagumba (talk) 12:22, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. However just for simplicity's sake, for any new staff or players that joined in 2020 (Ron Rivera and Chase Young, etc) we should probably just list the new name of the team instead of the "Redskins" once it is known (IE, Chase Young was drafted in the first round of the 2020 NFL Draft by the Washington Whatever). For anybody still on the team prior to 2020 (like Ryan Kerrigan), they should probably be listed as Washington Redskins (2011-2019) and then Washington Whatever (2020-present), right? ~ Dissident93 (talk) 22:24, 14 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I disagree with that. You could say "Chase Young is an American football defensive end for the Washington Whatevers. He was drafted by Washington in the first round of the 2020 NFL Draft." But you wouldn't say Derek Carr was drafted by the Las Vegas Raiders. I see what you mean about the players new to the team in 2020, but a similar thing happened in 1941 when the Steelers and Eagles drafted players for their teams and then basically swapped franchises (see Pennsylvania Polka). All players drafted in the 1941 NFL Draft by the Pittsburgh Steelers franchise that became the Philadelphia Eagles franchise later in the offseason still say they were drafted by the Steelers (and vice versa). And for Kerrigan's infobox, it should say "Washington Redskins / Whatevers (2011–present)" like for players who played for the Tennessee franchise when they changed their name from Oilers to Titans in 1999 (Isaac Byrd, for example). Eagles 24/7 (C) 16:23, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Eagles247, I wouldn't say Carr was drafted by Las Vegas because he signed his initial contract when they were in Oakland. We do for Henry Ruggs because the team had already been officially renamed (due to the move) prior to the draft. As Chase (and all other 2020 Redskin rookies) have not signed their contracts yet, this becomes a question of technicality for them since they were never officially "Redskins". However, I suppose the Oilers/Titans style is the cleanest option we have for the vets and free agents, yeah. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 00:24, 17 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article will most likely be renamed as soon as the new team name is announced. I'm hoping it's the Pigskins, but thats another matter. The article History of the Washington Redskins will most likely be renamed to The History of the Washington Pigskins and then a new article, History of the Washington Redskins will be created to keep the Redskins history there. Plenty of precident for this. Also all players who played for the Redskins will continue to be referred to as playing for the Redskins. For example, John Riggins was an NFL running back for the Washington Redskins. Again, there is precedent for this.--JOJ Hutton 20:33, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ultimately it's up to the NFL to decide wether the records are credited to one continuous, but renamed entity or to two separate entities. We then merely reflect what the reliable sources report they do.Tvx1 18:44, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 13 July 2020

The Washington Redskins were a professional American football team based in the Washington metropolitan area. The team competed in the National Football League (NFL) as a member of the NFC East. The team played its home games at FedExField in Landover, Maryland; its headquarters and training facility was at Inova Sports Performance Center at Redskins Park in Ashburn, Virginia, and the Redskins Complex in Richmond, Virginia, respectively.[2] The Redskins have played more than 1,000 games since their founding in 1932, and were one of only five franchises in the NFL to record over 600 regular season and postseason wins, reaching that mark in 2015.[3] The Redskins won five NFL Championships (the latter three in Super Bowls), and have captured 14 divisional titles and five conference championships.[4] The Redskins were the first NFL franchise with an official marching band and the first with a fight song, "Hail to the Redskins".[5] 71.254.14.239 (talk) 21:40, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Not done. See sections above. They shouldn't be referred to in the past tense. only (talk) 21:43, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The same IP user made the same request on the main NFL article's talk page in an utterly vague and unsatisfactory way. I answered the request in the negative there and referred the user here, consistent with your response. 1995hoo (talk) 22:01, 13 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sexual harassment scandal

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/16/sports/football/washington-sexual-assault-harassment-dan-snyder.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.10.252.159 (talk) 23:44, 16 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pending name

Officially, for the time being, the football team that plays in Washington will officially be known as... "The Washington Football Team". [2] So should we move it to such or wait until they get a better name, which they will, since they said it will be "pending"? - Jasonbres (talk) 16:27, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If they officially drop Redskins, it should be moved. Calidum 16:28, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
it's officially dropped. They just don't have a new name yet.

"The generic name replaces “Redskins,” the organization’s 87-year-old name that had become a target for many who believed that it was offensive and a slur toward Native Americans. On July 13, the team said it would “retire” the name Redskins at the end of a “thorough review” of the name that the club started on July 3 in response to increased criticism and pressure from sponsors.

“For updated brand clarity and consistency purposes, we will call ourselves the “Washington Football Team” pending adoption of a new name,” the team said in a release. “We encourage fans, media and all other parties to use “Washington Football Team” immediately. The Redskins name and logo will officially be retired by the start of the 2020 season.”"

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2020/07/23/washington-redskins-new-team-name-washington-football-team/ https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/us-sport/national-football-league/washington-redskins-new-name-change-football-team-2020-nfl-latest-a9635001.html https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/2020/07/23/washington-football-team-redskins-2020-rebranding-logo-dan-snyder/5494337002/

Requested move 23 July 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved per WP:SNOW, especially now that the name is official. I see a hatnote has already been added to address the ambiguity. -- Tavix (talk) 19:02, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Washington Redskins → Washington Football Team – The team has officially adopted the name "Washington Football Team" while they settle on a new permanent name (see here). It is not appropriate for them to continue being referred to as the Redskins any more. – PeeJay 16:29, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agree. The NFL have announced this will be their name until further notice Steven a91 (talk) 17:10, 23 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

"The" ??

Perhaps this is a trivial point, but it's an annoying bit of grammar. What is the name of the new team? Is it "Washington Football Team" or "The Washington Football Team"? This article is full of inconsistencies. This reminds of Family Guy and Home Depot. Are those the proper names? Because very often, they're preceded by "The". It makes a difference; one is the formal, correct name. The other is not. Another example: universities whose name contains the word "institute" fall into this mess sometimes. Some people are happy to write "The California Institute of Technology", but no one writes "The Harvard" or "The Yale". Polihale (talk) 06:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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