Talk:Attempts to overturn the 2020 United States presidential election

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Title brainstorming

Originally this was titled "Attempt to overturn the 2020 United States Presidential Election", but an editor expressed concerns that it wasn't neutral. What would we think about Attempt to overturn the apparent results of the 2020 United States Presidential Election, which would still be neutral about the election results but less vague than "disputes" which could be anything. Or some other win-win that's both neutral and non-vague? Feoffer (talk) 05:13, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 22 November 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It was proposed in this section that Disputes surrounding the 2020 United States presidential election results be renamed and moved to Attempt to overturn the apparent results of the 2020 United States Presidential Election.

result:
Withdrawn with the statement, "Withdrawn as nom, seems pretty snowy to me Feoffer (talk) 21:00, 22 November 2020 (UTC)." Article subsequently moved to lowercased "presidential election". Kudos to editors for your input, and Happy, Healthy Publishing! (nac by page mover) P.I. Ellsworth ed. ^put'r there 23:09, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Links: current log • target log • direct move

This is template {{subst:Requested move/end}}

Disputes surrounding the 2020 United States Presidential Election results → Attempt to overturn the apparent results of the 2020 United States Presidential Election – Neutral AND specific Feoffer (talk) 09:55, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: "Overturn" is a loaded word, "dispute" is more neutral. ... discospinster _talk 16:27, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I don't know the best title, but wherever this article ends up at, "presidential election" should not be capitalized. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 16:51, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose I think this title implies a more organized attack on the election that what is occurring, which is a scattershot group of lawsuits in several states alleging different types of misconduct and fraud. I don't think it's a serious attempt to overturn the election. I think "Disputes" is more appropriate description. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 17:23, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose the suggested name is a complete muddle. The current version is verbose, but seemingly accurate, and nowhere near as frightening as the suggestion. The Rambling Man (Hands! Face! Space!!!!) 20:41, 22 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Article scope

There are many terms to cover here, so, taking my cue from RS, here are a few that are relevant here:

Trump's attempts to steal the 2020 election from Biden
Trump's attempts to undermine the 2020 election results
Trump's attempts to overturn 2020 election
Trump's attempts to disenfranchise voters in 2020
Trump's voter suppression in 2020
Trump's attempt to rig vote in 2020

All of these are logical parts of the scope here. Google searches of each suggestion turn up myriad RS we could use.

We are seeing attempts to literally throw out the lawful votes of whole counties, disenfranchise/suppress minority voters, ignore all the votes (Democrat and Republican) in counties carried by Democrats and certify all the votes in the counties carried by Trump, Trump observers obstructing recount, robocalls to keep people from voting, get judges to invalidate the lawful results and just declare Trump the winner, and attempts to get electors to become unfaithful and ignore the will of the people.

We are watching an unprecedented refusal to accept the will of the people, a full-court press to invalidate the lawful results at the end of the game, and then keep the ball by any means possible, regardless of traditions, laws, regulations, and Constitutional succession of power.

Even though this is now turning into mostly unsuccessful attempts, we should document this for posterity. That is part of our job here. -- Valjean (talk) 22:47, 27 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. This article should continue to cover all of these logical parts. The "Michigan officials pressured not to certify", the "Wisconsin recount obstruction" and the "Robots who keep people from voting" (not currently noted). InedibleHulk (talk) 00:32, 28 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Merger proposal

It is proposed that Stop the Steal be merged here. Stop the Steal is a relatively short article focusing on the movement by supporters of President Trump to not accept the election results and repeats much material covered here. This content can be covered as part of this broader article, which as indicated in discussions elsewhere (such as here and here), a main article discussing all issues surrounding the election results is sorely needed, and it seems like this article is it. Stop the Steal is also not a widely known name for this movement. Mdewman6 (talk) 18:54, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A long merge discussion at Talk:Stop the Steal#Merge was just closed yesterday, with numerous editors commenting that the article ought to remain standalone. This discussion should probably be closed. GorillaWarfare (talk) 18:59, 29 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The consensus of that discussion was that it would be inappropriate to merge to a list page, with no prejudice against a subsequent discussion to consider a merge with a more appropriate article. Some editors (including you) floated the possibility of considering a merge elsewhere. A merge will only occur if there is consensus from this discussion to do so. Mdewman6 (talk) 23:27, 30 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The "stop the steal article" is about the conspiracy theories surrounding the 2020 election. Conspiracy theories are a dime a dozen, but this one is supported by a president of the united states and may be one of the most litigated conspiracy theory of all time. It could perhaps use a better name, and certainly should expanded.-- Work permit (talk) 04:13, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't believe a merger is necessary, Stop the Steal is sufficiently notable for its own article given its prominence and perpetration by top Republican leaders, including the President. While it may require expansion and some minor encyclopedic cleanup, it does not warrant being merged into another article. I believe the article's name is fine, as this is what most news networks and believers in the theory alike refer to it as. Builder018 (talk) 16:45, 2 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is a superior article because it addresses the specific disputes point by point, instead of an evidence-free blanket denial of all possible election fraud like they do over at Stop The Steal. Just delete stop the steal.2600:8801:20C:7500:6:C0A9:8113:80A4 (talk) 00:49, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We already went through this once and I still oppose it as StS is notable as a standalone article and it isn't a dispute, it's a conspiracy theory. Implying it's anything less violates WP:NPOV. Praxidicae (talk) 16:37, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Your profile violates WP:NPOV. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8801:20C:7500:6:C0A9:8113:80A4 (talk) 19:25, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - I think you probably need to read WP:NPOV if that's what you think. ThadeusOfNazereth^{Talk to Me!} 19:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think Stop the Steal should be condensed and rolled into a substantial section of Disputes surrounding the 2020 United States presidential election results, then deleted with a redirect.soibangla (talk) 20:34, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose for now. I think we should wait until the dust settles per WP:Recent. This would allow both articles to develop as events unfold. If 'results' is removed from the title, the scope of this article will expand as more controversies arise or are revealed. IP75 (talk) 23:47, 4 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]