Talk:Hindu terrorism

NPOV tag

This article has been tagged with an NPOV dispute tag since 2014. Isn't it time to remove it? Cipher21 (talk) 16:20, 22 November 2021 (UTC)

@Cipher21 I support removing it. Please remove. Venkat TL (talk) 16:23, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

I oppose removing for the reasons already stated in the discussion in the above section. — Alalch Emis (talk) 16:34, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Cipher21 I support removing it, this article has many issues. Devesh S N Bhatta (talk) 03:24, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

I oppose removing it, multiple outstanding issues not yet resolved.Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 17:21, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

There are numerous outstanding issues, not least of which is that excuses by the terrorist groups claiming the phenomena doesn't exist, despite being entirely contradictory to the facts, are given more space over the course of the article than the acts themselves. Dankster (talk) 17:39, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

"Shock after leaders of several far-right Hindu groups allegedly call for genocide of minorities in India"

Just dropping it here: https://www.independent.co.uk/asia/india/haridwar-hate-speech-yati-narsinghanand-b1981970.html — kashmīrī ^TALK 23:39, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

See Haridwar hate speeches. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 23:58, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Wow, that was quick! Although I'm not certain this one-event page would survive a potential AfD a couple of months/years down the line. It might be prudent to begin incorporating its contents to Hindutva or here. — kashmīrī ^TALK 00:14, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

I am glad you call it an "event". -- Kautilya3 (talk) 00:40, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Just like you :) [1] — kashmīrī ^TALK 02:27, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Reality

Does does communal conflict are terrorist activities??? Het666 (talk) 15:54, 1 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, communal conflict can be terrorism against other Hindus and non-Hindus too. Terrorism is supposed to be violence that scares other people, so communal violence can eventually become terrorism.

If you mean "Islamic terrorism" by "communal conflict", yes, it is already covered in these articles and categories:

• Terrorism in India (Islamic terrorists are already mentioned)
• Category:Islamic terrorism in India
• Lashkar-e-Taiba

"Saffron terror" is about Hindu militants who also engage in similar actions.

PulauKakatua19 (talk) 23:25, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 25 February 2023

Saffron terror → Hindu terrorism – The current page title fails at the basics of naturalness and recognizability. While since the late 1990s, "Saffron terror" has been a common phrase in South Asia for terror committed by Hindu extremist groups, for the global English-speaking audience that this encyclopedia addresses a straightforward descriptive title makes sense, per WP:NDESC, consistent with Islamic terrorism, Christian terrorism and Jewish terrorism. Literature-wise, as Ngrams makes plain, taking the full breadth of the literature, "Saffron terror" commands but a fraction of the mentions of the broader mentions of "Hindu terror" or "Hindu terrorism" - the latter being a term for which this page is already the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, meaning this page is already the only page on Wikipedia about Hindu terrorism, and not simple a page about the neologism that is "Saffron terror". Google Scholar also produces 182 results for "Hindu terrorism" to 147 hits for "Saffron terror", without even getting into the various other iterations, such as "Hindu terror" 99 hits, "Hindutva terror" 92 results, etc. that make plain that there is no clear WP:COMMONNAME. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:34, 25 February 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 19:41, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• Addendum: For reference, further clarifying the concurrence of these terms: "Hindu terrorism, also called saffron terror, thrives on the notion of Hindutva." Symbolism in Terrorism: Motivation, Communication, and Behavior Iskandar323 (talk) 06:47, 27 February 2023 (UTC)
• Oppose Lame whataboutery. "Saffron terror" still wins as WP:COMMONNAME. These violent incidents were not inspired by Hinduism but Hindutva as scholarly sources clearly note. Capitals00 (talk) 13:35, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  @Capitals00: What are your metrics or analysis that support WP:COMMONNAME? Iskandar323 (talk) 13:39, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

It depends on what reliable sources are saying.[2],[3][4][5][6][7][8] As such "Saffron terror" is still WP:COMMONNAME. The term "Hindu terror" and whatever you have found for this term is mainly a part of a broader political campaign of Hindutva proponent Bharatiya Janta Party (BJP) to smear Indian National Congress by falsely accusing them of using the term "Hindu terror", even after denials by the latter.[9][10] Capitals00 (talk) 14:04, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

That must be why usage of the term began in the 1940s, predating the 1951 formation of the BJP - that's what I call planning! But in any case, if the BJP, a.k.a. the Indian government, is using the term "Hindu terror" as part of an effort to smear its opponents, that still means the term has currency. As for the alignment between the term and the article, let's see what some sources say. For example the article: Good Faith, Bad Faith: Modi claims “Hindu terror” is an insult, but home ministry probes “Islamist & Sikh terrorism” states: "The BJP and its parent organisation, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, have long held that there is no such thing as Hindu terrorism—the term gained traction against the backdrop of investigations into the Samjhauta Express blast of 2007 and the Malegaon blasts of 2008, among others." In the article we have: 2007 Samjhauta Express bombings and 2008 Malegaon blasts. And another: Invisibilizing Hindu terrorism through the “War on Terror”, which states: "Despite many cases of Hindu terrorism in India, the figure of the Muslim as a terrorist in Indian society lurks in no small part due to post 9/11 Western discourse of the “War on Terror.” That the Malegaon bombasts, Ajmer Dargah attack, and Mecca Masjid blast were carried out by Hindu terrorists is somehow comfortably forgotten in mainstream narratives." Yep, we also have 2007 Ajmer Dargah attack. The first of those two articles manages to write an entire article about the subject without mentioning "Saffron terror" once. I wonder how? Perhaps because it's not actually a useful descriptive term (let alone a common name), but just an alternative term. The second article makes a single reference to "Saffron terror", noting "Yet any reference to the term “saffron terror” to indicate growing Hindu terrorism in India can be used a disciplinary ground by the Election Commission of India for allegedly endorsing a “political conspiracy.”" Iskandar323 (talk) 16:01, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Terrorist incidents in South Asia 1970–2016

• Oppose - No evidence of usage in WP:RS has been provided. The very first of the OP's google hits for "Hindu terrirosm" is actually titled "Saffron terrorism"! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 13:45, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  I mean, you can see the sources for yourself all over the internet and in Scholar, and I've shared the Scholar link, and you obviously clicked on it, since you're using its results to try to make some sort of a point, though what exactly that is is unclear. So the first source is titled Saffron terrorism, yep, which tells us is that the terms are used concurrently, as expected. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:24, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  I am not interested in "Google hits" or "all over the Internet". I am interested in reliable sources (see that page) describing the phenomena/events of this article as "Hindu terorism". Until you provide such evidence, this proposal is a non-starter. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:30, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  If you are actually disputing that "Saffron terror" is Hindu terrorism, which seems like a fairly absurdist stance to take, but each to their own, you should take your concerns to the redirect Hindu terrorism, for which this page is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. Sources had already been provided above making the connection explicit before your comment. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:19, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

  You seem to be heavy loading the existence of a redirect. Redirects are just aids for searching. They don't have any verifiability or NPOV requirements.

  Not only I am disputing that saffron terror is Hindu terrorism, I am not even convinced there is anything coherent called "Hindu terrorism". The WP:ONUS is on you to prove it. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:47, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  Ngrams is a bit unpredictable, but it doesn't just make things up, and the term is sitting on there plain as day, in addition to the already quoted sources above that use the term. Or you can look at any of the sources on Scholar where the sources are use concurrently and often interchangeably. Come on, just look at some sources. You have 80k edits. Don't just sit about quoting policy. The onus is on all editors to use their brains and not just quote policy to filibuster rational discussion. But here, I'll get you started: "Hindu terrorism, also called saffron terror, thrives on the notion of Hindutva." Symbolism in Terrorism: Motivation, Communication, and Behavior By Jonathan Matusitz, page 161 Iskandar323 (talk) 06:40, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nomination, which points out that main title header Hindu terrorism, a redirect to this article, is analogous to other such Wikipedia article headers — Christian terrorism, Islamic terrorism, Jewish terrorism redirect to Jewish religious terrorism, Buddhist terrorism redirect to Buddhism and violence or Category:Sikh terrorism. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:06, 25 February 2023 (UTC)
• I've searched through google scholar, and the results are somewhat inconclusive: the slight tilt in favor of "Hindu terror/terrorism" is more than offset by the quality of sources using the term. Surprised as I am to be agreeing with Capitals00, they are quite correct above; a non-trivial number of the hits for "Hindu terror" come from denials that it is a phenomenon, and from non-RS. Given the fraught nature of the topic, I believe google hits are a bad metric here; we need to examine the best sources on the topic, and see what they use. As best as I can tell these sources are fairly evenly divided between "Saffron terror" and "Hindutva terrorism", and I prefer the latter as a more descriptive term that is less likely to confuse the general reader. Vanamonde (Talk) 00:43, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  Thanks for that thoughtful input. I would agree that "Hindutva" is more descriptive than the present adjective and a potentially slightly more precise option than "Hindu" in the context, though somewhat less natural and recognizable for a global audience, but still better than "Saffron terror" - with a colour designation really doing very little to help the unacquainted reader understand the context. I found at least one academic source using "Saffron terror" in the context of Buddhist extremism in Burma [11], possibly in error? I meanwhile also tested "Hindu nationalist terror(ism)", but few sources seems to use that more long-winded phrasing. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:07, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  Very hesitant support. I'll begin by saying that I dislike "[Religion] terrorism" as a title for any article, because it's an oversimplification, as any genuine scholarship of that religion will attest. It is particularly so for a religion as old and heterogenous as Hinduism. However, having examined the sources further, I think RegentsPark's point that "saffron terror" is imprecise is a serious concern; there's a non-trivial number of sources using "saffron" to refer to activity by Buddhists, and at least one frequently-cited piece using "saffron terror" to discuss persecution by Buddhists in Myanmar. Taken together with concerns about it being a neologism, and about it being jargon, I believe "Saffron terror" is a bad title. My personal preference would be to call the topic "Hindutva terrorism", but for "Hindu terrorism" vs "Hindutva terrorism" specifically, the former term is clearly used more often. I think this is a distinctly non-ideal outcome, and I don't think I would necessarily oppose a subsequent move to "Hindutva terrorism" if someone can demonstrate substantial usage; but this is where I land for the moment. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per Capitals00. The term "Hindu terror" is at best creation of BJP to misrepresent its major opponent Congress. I don't think alternative 'Hindutva terrorism' will work because it would make more sense to merge this article to Hindutva. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 12:12, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  The term "Hindu terror" is at best creation of BJP to misrepresent its major opponent Congress.: Can you please explain this? How is it a creation of the BJP? —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 12:47, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

  As noted above, literature using the terms Hindu terror or Hindu terrorism dates back to the 1940s, 10 years before the BJP even existed, so to suggest that these are wholly recent terms is simply to misconstrue the evidence. Iskandar323 (talk) 13:37, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Show those sources from 1940s. Just ngram random search is not enough. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 14:28, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Here are your 40s sources: Fascist India by Patrick Lacey, 1946, page 45: "Heaven forbid that we should let Hindu terrorism warp our judgment when and if we must adjudicate again on communal rivalries."; Whys of the Great Indian Conflict by M. A. Mehtar, 1947, page 73: "The Mussalmans have been oppressed and persecuted by the excesses of the Hindu majority in the last ten years but Mr Gandhi never tried to improve matters or condemn Hindu terrorism against the Muslims", which is an excerpt from a 1946 presidential address by Muhammad Ali Jinnah also present twice elsewhere: [12], [13]. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:02, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Are these reliable sources for anything, let alone this page? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:39, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

I was asked for evidence of usage back in the 1940s, so I provided it. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:21, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

• Support for several reasons:

1. To avoid figurative use in article titles – here, the figurative use of a plant name is not, in all probability, legible to the majority of readers.
2. To improve consistency with other articles listed by @Roman Spinner.
3. To avoid giving an air of whitewashing which occurs when uncomfortable phenomena are not named directly.

I'd also avoid the term Hindutva as it's much less legible for lay people. — kashmīrī ^TALK 14:12, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Saffron, as used here, comes from Saffron (color) which is the color most used by Hindu supremacist groups, not Saffron the plant, which is unrelated to Hindu terrorism. —CX Zoom[he/him] ^{(let's talk • {C•X})} 18:00, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

... though this does somewhat exemplify the recognizability issue raised: "The title is a name or description of the subject that someone familiar with, although not necessarily an expert in, the subject area will recognize." Iskandar323 (talk) 18:25, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

"Saffron politics", "saffronization" etc. were terms in vogue at that time. Perhaps the term has gone out of fashion. If so, "Hindutva terror" is readily available as an alternative. We won't need any big discussion for it because sources on this page itself have used it often enough. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 19:07, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

The usage of "saffron" to denote a colour is very rare[14]. I venture to say that an average English speaker outside India wouldn't be able to correctly identify "saffron colour". — kashmīrī ^TALK 19:23, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

And yet loads of scholars used it in book titles: The Saffron Wave, The Saffron Tide, Khaki Shorts and Saffron Flags, The Saffron Mission, Saffron Surge, Rise of Saffron Power, yet another Saffron Surge, and The Saffron Condition. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 01:58, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely. Metonymy tends to sound nice in book titles. I mean, like "Roof of the World" instead of Tibet, etc. What I'd prefer to see here, however, is not a poetic figure of speech but a standard, common term. — kashmīrī ^TALK 13:40, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Also subtitles: Fascinating Hindutva: Saffron politics and Dalit mobilisation. Also research papers: The Saffron Surge in Indian Politics: Hindu Nationalism and the Future of Secularism, The New Contours of Identity Politics: Saffron Mobilization of Dalit and Backward Caste in Uttar Pradesh, etc. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:04, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

Do you have an usage example elsewhere than in titles? — kashmīrī ^TALK 21:17, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

A news article from a couple of years ago. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:46, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Another one from last year. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:48, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

What's the point here exactly? I don't think anyone is doubting that the color has a symbolic relationship with Hinduism /Hindu nationalist politics /Hindutva. The point is that "Saffron terror" is impoverished as a descriptive title for those not already familiar with the genre. We could use Red terrorism for Communist terrorism and Green terrorism for Eco-terrorism, but it should be obvious how ridiculous an encyclopedia revolving around color-based metaphors would be. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:33, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

"Hindutva terror" was featured on the original Ngrams evidence, where it didn't perform well. In addition to issues of overall prevalence, as noted above, "Hindutva" as a word that potentially has some recognizability issues for those not familiar with South Asian politics. It is a far from common word across the English-speaking world. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:10, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 09:36, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

  @Pharaoh of the Wizards: I'm not aware of any evidence being presented that "Saffron terror" is the WP:COMMONNAME here. If you have found some, I would be grateful if you could present your findings. What I am aware of is that if you take the 265 Google Scholar hits for "Hindu terror" OR "Hindu terrorism" and then if you re-run the search excluding the term "Saffron terror", you still get 237 Google Scholar hits - suggesting that usage of the term is not that important to discussion of the subject at all, let alone positioning it as any kind of common name. By way of contrast, if you take the 147 Google Scholar hits for "Saffron terror" and exclude "Hindu terror" OR "Hindu terrorism", the results plummet to 28 Google Scholar hits, which means that the vast majority of sources discussing "Saffron terror" find it impossible to do so without mentioning either "Hindu terror" OR "Hindu terrorism" - suggesting that not only is it not the common name, but that its descriptive powers are impoversished at best and that its usage requires heavy supplementation by more descriptive terms. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:03, 27 February 2023 (UTC)

• Oppose Move. Firstly, the data used here is wrong, and further, the page is also very clearly about accusations of saffron terror, not 'hindu' terror, which would make the title widely inaccurate.

That aside, the flawed basis for the title move is also clear - A cursory glance at the Ngrams shows that it is an apples to oranges comparison. It combines Hindu Terror with Hindu Terrorism but only takes Saffron terror and its derivatives. As such, the Ngrams seems to have been manipulated in order to depict the preferred title as being more common in literature. Indeed, an actual fair comparison of the suggested title with current title shows the exact opposite conclusion as the one proposed : link to Ngram.

As for the google scholar search results, they are also rather noticeably inaccurate - As pointed out above by other editors, there is a steep discrepancy in the data used. At even a cursory glance, the first, fifth and sixth result in the search for "Hindu Terror" are all titled as "Saffron terror". The third result is about Hindu terror being a misnomer, so on and so forth.... The results can hardly be said to have any usefulness in this state.

In short, the proposal lacks merit in its entirety and is based upon incorrect assertions of fact. As such, the current title is sufficient and accurate.Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 08:41, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@CapnJackSp: I must demur on the point that the Ngrams is either flawed or misleading. There is no serious semantic difference between 'Hindu terror' and 'Hindu terrorism' - just because on is an 'ism' and the other is not does not make it different terminology. And anyone can have a play with the graph for thenselves. The point is, whatever way you dice it, 'Saffron terror' is far from any kind of common name and, as such, is worthy of discussion as a title. As for the scholar hits, do you think I linked them not thinking people would look at them? Yes, obviously Saffron terror is also referenced. No one is denying it is a term. The whole move is based on their synonymous meaning, but as noted, people love a bit of metaphor and wordplay in book and paper titles; that doesn't mean it it makes for a good descriptive title in a universal encyclopedia. The proposal from the outset was based on WP:NDESC and the relative utility of any of three alternative terms, Hindu terrorism, Hindu terror or Hindutva terror, relative to the current title, which is a visual metaphor with limited cultural, linguistic and geographical reach, and which very few outside of South Asia or South Asian studies will be familiar with. And it is a poor choice for readers IMO. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:50, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it means the same thing, but adding additional ways to catch one term in place of another makes for an unfair comparison, as the actual comparison showed. Again, while comparing Ngrams, you have exercised the same error - combining Hindu and Hindutva is again, not a direct comparison. As for the google scholar results, if the results are consistently about Saffron Terror, even when searching for your proposed title, it does, in fact, substantiate it as the COMMONNAME, and whataboutery wont change that. The other titles you proposed are either inaccurate or practically unused; due to which I oppose the move. I remain thoroughly unconvinced by your arguments. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 12:31, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi CapnJackSp, I didn't know about the "+" trick in Google ngram viewer. Now that I became aware, I tried out a more general search and the results indicate that the "Hindu terrorism" term has seen a rise very recently. It is still unclear why this is. One reason seems to be that BJP itself has mentioning that term in order to shoot it down. Another reason seems to be that the scholars have begun to use that term (now more comfortably because of the rising Hindutva violence), but I haven't even found a definition of the term anywhere. I think we need to wait for the dust to settle. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:16, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

I already provided you with a source [15] with the definition. What's the issue? Iskandar323 (talk) 15:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Adding to that, Im not even sure if "Hindu terror" will be accurate for the information on this page. I think someone cited things like Islamic terror and Christian terror to support the usage here, but the key difference between those pages and the one here is that they are about religious fundamentalists carrying out terror attacks, whereas the topics covered in our article are specifically only about of Hindu Nationalist organisations; the basis of the ideology of the accused differ in this case. Hindutva Terror may be a more accurate term than Hindu Terror, with the only issue being it is practically unused by any good sources. Saffron terror means the same as Hindutva terror, and is much more common; which is why I opposed the move. Open to your suggestions. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 19:00, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• What is this article about in the first place, the neologism or terrorism in general? If the former would a separate article not be better (if the topic is covered as such)? If the latter then we need to see which usage is preferred, not seeing a tilt in favour of either scale as of this moment. On the topic of title consistency, I can see a pattern but not universally Buddhism and violence, Sikh terrorism (redirect), Mormonism and violence, Jewish religious terrorism do all deviate in one way or other from the proposed title here; perhaps more title variations can be explored. Gotitbro (talk) 19:04, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

The issue is, the proposed new title has barely any matter to add; the term "Hindu terror" has very few examples to talk of, with little to no scholarly material on it. As for the violence carried out by Hindus on religious lines that would not be considered an act of terror (riots, vigilantism etc), that is covered in articles like this and this. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 19:14, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

This page currently exists in a nadir state that is a shadow of it's 2013 existence, when it was obviously not about a neologism. And it's obviously not about a neologism now, since the term has been around for three decades and is clearly in mainstream use. Whoever fronted the page with this 'neologism' first sentence was clearly, and presumably tendentiously, trying to edit the actual topic out of existence. I guess I'll try and figure out who this was. There is plenty more content, and plenty of sources (pertinent to all of the relevant terms), that can be fed into this subject. Whether whoever worked to grind the article down will gracefully allow it to be built back up is another question. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:52, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:13, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Hmm, not really ... ok, so it was introduced just weeks earlier in Feb 2013 and then edited warred over prolifically, including by you, among others, despite the attribution being wholly unverified information. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:17, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• Comment I agree that saffron terrorism is not exactly out there as a recognizable title by the lay reader and, in that sense, Hindu or Hindutva (though that does require more parsing) terrorism is a lot clearer. From what I can see, the sources tend to use Hindu terrorism the most. JStor pulls up 18 "Hindu terrorism" articles, 13 "Hindutva terrorism" and 12 "Saffron terror" articles (which included a few on Buddhist terrorists in Myanmar). Hindu terrorism also dominates both Saffron terror/terrorism as well as Hindutva terrorism on my Google search (167,000/36,820/6,120). On Google scholar, the results are 162/148/92 with Hindu terrorism only slightly edging out Saffron terrorism though there were a smattering of Burmese buddhist terrorism articles thrown into the mix. It seems fairly clear to me that Saffron terror is not ideal both because it is not the dominant term as well as because there are non-Hindu saffron terrorists. We could go with the dominant Hindu terrorism title or settle on Hindutva terrorism as the most descriptive since the overall numbers for this phenomenon are quite small (167,000 hits on google search, 18 articles in JSTOR is not exactly up there in excitement terms).--RegentsPark (comment) 20:24, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

  You're correct that, while I don't think "Saffron terror" as a distinct phrase is quite so common in reference to Burma (though I have seen at least one concrete and widely referenced example), as a more general rule, the symbolism of "Saffron" is as much a cultural feature of Buddhism as it is of Hinduism, so yes, aside from not being descriptive, "Saffron" can be confusing. Iskandar323 (talk) 08:09, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• "Saffron terror" is still used often and nobody (as clear from reliable sources) has seen any confusion related to this term. "Hindutva terrorism" won't make sense and would seem better merged with Hindutva itself. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 12:31, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• Support per nom and WP:CONSISTENT --- Tbf69 P • T 18:04, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

Doesnt hold here, ideology of the accused is religious nationalism, not religious fundamentalism as in the case of other religious terrorism articles that have been highlighted. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 06:53, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

You're railing against a bit of a straw man here. You don't have to be a religious fundamentalist to participate in terrorism. In your comments further up, you argue from the perspective of consistency, but on the Christian terrorism page, many of the examples are not 'fundamentalist' in nature. In any case, it's something of a matter of perspective and/or semantics as to whether religious nationalism can be considered religious fundamentalism or religious extremism in any given context. As the article Putting the “Fun” in Fundamentalism: Religious Nationalism and the Split Self at Hindutva Summer Camps in the United States notes: "For the purposes of this article the terms religious fundamentalism, religious nationalism, and religious extremism are interchangeably defined ..." Iskandar323 (talk) 08:59, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

These are clearly not the same for our purpose, as you have been clearly told on the requested move in the Jewish religious terrorism page as well where you were mixing ethno-religious with religious ideologies. Whatever "interchangeability" the author of the article took for their convenience hold little value here ; These terms are very clearly different in their scope and motivations, and hence must be dealt with separately. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 10:32, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Counterfactual revert

@Kautilya3: Come on then. Let's hear your explanation as to why you are removing reliable sources, including two peer-reviewed sources, from the article. You don't really need consensus to add factual, reliably sourced information to this encyclopedia, especially when the addition is so stragihtforward, so I assume you have a very good reason indeed for reverting here. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:28, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

First of all, you were attempting to broaden the scope of the article, which is currently regarding the term "saffron terror". You can't do that unilaterally.

Secondly, your identification of "saffron terror" with "Hindu terrorism" is problematic, as the above discussion has clearly revealed. Neither do your sources settle the matter. (Mind you, I explicitly asked for sources in the above section, and you brushed me off.)

Julie Gittinger, whom I find a respectable scholar, is using the term "Hindu terrorism" in a generic way to mean terrorism perpetrated by (some) Hindus. She never bothered to define the term. Neither did she say that "saffron terror is also known as Hindu terrorism". In fact, she sided with our position when she says: "It could be argued that Hindu terrorism is not religious violence, but political (another reason I am partial to the non-religious label of saffron)."

Matusitz is some third or fourth rate junk scholar who plagiarises Wikipedia without even being clever about it. His line "The term comes from the association of the color saffron with Hindu nationalism.[1]" is lifted from this very page. He added a WP:FAKE citation to Bidwai, who said nothing about "saffron terror". His definition of Christian terrorism: "Christian terrorism consists of terrorist attacks committed by groups or individuals who appeal to Christian motives or goals for their actions." is also lifted from our Christian terrorism page. It is no wonder that he has no definitions for "Hindu terrorism" and "Sikh terrorism", only his own rambling POVs. This is not a reliable source for anything. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:38, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

And also, why is "Tamil Tigers" a separate section? Why is it not part of "Hindu terrorism"? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:42, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

This page clearly isn't about a neologism; it is about a form of terrorism, as clearly outlined by its series of incidents. That someone daftly wrote a bad first line and bad short description is neither here nor there. As you can see from the previous version of the page that you have linked to, the page has been systematically bastardized and chipped away over the past decade to be less and less substantive and encyclopedic than the 2013 version. As I mentioned before, if you seriously intend to continue arguing that these are distinct terms, i.e.: that Hindu terrorism, for instance, should not direct here (dubious), you should stop beating around the bush and raise a redirect for discussion talk on that page. Otherwise, if I turn the redirect Hindu terrorism into a page, I expect not to hear a word of complaint from you. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:23, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Thats.... An interesting way to discuss, thats for sure. Regardless, as for the merit of the matter; I have yet to see anything that you added which corresponds to "Hindu terror". The only sources I see being used to support that are talking of saffron terror, but mislabelling it as Hindu terror. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 19:06, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

More interesting than engaging with arguments that terms don't exist or that sources mentioning those terms don't exist. With friends like these, it's no wonder this page is such an uninformative mess. Since 2013, it's clearly been eviscerated by those who would like nothing more than to assert that the subject is but a neologism conjured out of thin air. Iskandar323 (talk) 19:27, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

This page lists those incidents which have been described as "saffron terror". If you have other incidents and other descriptions, please feel free to go and start a new page. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:21, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: And both of the two journal sources you deleted reference the same terror incidents, literally on the first page of each - you don't even have to sign in to see it! And the first source was titled "Saffron terror" - what on earth is justification for removing a reliable source on "Saffron terror" from the article on "Saffron terror", as opposed to say moving it, or performing literally almost any variation on editing between actual work and just deleting it? On this neologism point, are you genuinely saying that you cannot see that this article is about a broader subject, and not just a neologism, which is clearly a tendentious framing that has been worked in some time between the 2013 version that you highlighted and the present? Iskandar323 (talk) 06:28, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

So I see that the 'neologism' lead was introduced unsourced back in 2013, and you have played no small part in maintaining this unverified information. All that has changed is that while a decade ago you freely admitted that 'Saffron terror' and 'Hindutva terror' were the same thing, today you are silent on the subject. So, since you are a 'neologism' defender, I'd like to see your best source for the lead statement, because no source in the article supports this. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:04, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I am still saying that "saffron terror" and "Hindutva terror" are the same thing. Search for those terms on this very page. My 2014 edit was probably going to back an earlier version of the lead. (I don't really remember, I was still a newbie editor at that time.) But you can see Talk:Saffron terror/Archive 4 for the consensus at that time, in particular NeilN's comments. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 16:39, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• There is no "Hindu terrorism", that's why it was a good move to revert the edit. Iskander, looking at above dicussion and in this section as well, you got all your answers and I think you should really find another subject now. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 06:42, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

• No opinions at the moment on framing the introductory sentence, and there's genuine room for disagreement as to how to title it and introduce it. But I don't see how it's reasonable for this to be a page about the neologism anymore; there is too much scholarly material discussing the phenomenon of terrorism motivated by right-wing Hindu nationalism. The page is about this phenomenon, which at this point is clearly more notable than the neologism itself. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:54, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

  Agreed. We don't need to stick to the neologism line any more. Both "saffron terror" and "Hinduva terror" are well-established terms now, and they can be used interchangeably. But "Hindu terrorism" (Iskandar's favourite) is a wooly, ill-defined idea. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:10, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

  I have not problem with "Hindutva terror", which is also more recognizable and descriptive; hence why I illustrated it as one of the alternatives in the move discussion, and I do appreciate the point that it is a slightly tighter term. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:49, 3 March 2023 (UTC)

I disagree that "Hindutva Terror" is a more recognisable term than "Saffron Terror" ; The search results seem to substantiate that rather clearly. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 10:16, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

As of 2022 in scholarly sources "Saffron terror" is still a neologism. The article already has a broader scope. REDISCOVERBHARAT (talk) 12:38, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

If the best recent mention for 'neologism' is in a footnote in an only tangentially related 2021 article about the Discursive Practices of Digital (Counter)Publics, then I think that really proves the opposite point. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:42, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

I also disagree about Hindutva terror. We need to use WP:COMMONNAME and The term hindutva is understood and used only by a handful of people who are already familiar with the phenomenon. An average Joe, esp. outside India, he'd be searching for "Hindu terrorism".

Also worth repeating RegentsPark's observation that the term Saffron terror is used to denote Buddhist terrorism in certain countries. — kashmīrī ^TALK 09:37, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

That is a non-point. People searching for "Hindu terrorism" come here via redirects. The page title should correctly describe this topic and this page. If you title it as "Hindu terrorism" then how will you define it? What will you include here and what will you exclude? Flippant claims of WP:COMMONNAME don't write a page for you. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 20:48, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: That the redirect comes here implies that no one has a problem with that association and that this topic is already the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC for 'Hindu terrorism'. I have no seen any information that suggest otherwise. What are the examples of 'Hindu terrorism' that one could not also categorize as 'Hindutva terrorism'? Iskandar323 (talk) 04:44, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

You are ignoring the main issue here. You are mixing "Hindu" and "Hindutva" by ignoring the differences between the two. "Hindu" is a religion; "Hindutva" is a political ideology. The entire contents of the page are regarding the ideology and the followers of the ideology who have been accused of terror. Your claim of "recognizability" and COMMONNAME has been clearly dismissed in the discussion above. If you are unable to even declare what you think "Hindu Terror" is, or able to find quality articles on it, then that "renamed" article is bound to be about Saffron terror, mislabeled as Hindu terror. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 06:50, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Ignoring the obvious mistakes here, i.e. "Hindu" is either an adherent or an adjective for Hinduism rather than the religion itself, Hindutva is routinely translated as "Hindu-ness" and is semantically barely a hop and a skip away from the former. It adds a little precision in the context, in that it hones in on 'Hindu nationalism' more specifically, but in essence it is little different from defining, for example, Islamic terrorism as "Muslim-ness terrorism", i.e.: terrorism associated with the assertion through violence of a Muslim, a.k.a. Islamic, identity. Iskandar323 (talk) 09:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

A very wordy semantic argument that establishes nothing; your assumption that Hindu and Hindutva are interchangeable is incorrect by a mile. At which point your argument falls apart completely. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 10:37, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

I did not say they were interchangeable, but in this specific context, there is little meaningful distinction in much of the literature, and for obvious reasons. I do not disagree that there might be a meaningful distinction to be made, which is why I've said "Hindutva terrorism" is also workable. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:57, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Hindutva terror is equivalent to Saffron terror, except it is a barely used term with even fewer supporting sources than "Hindu terror". Makes no sense to make that change. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 11:49, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

'Barely used' it is not. There are numerous scholarly sources on Hindutva terrorism, including: Confronting the Reality of Hindutva Terrorism, Pawns In, Patrons Still Out: Understanding the Phenomenon of Hindutva Terror, The Rise of Hindutva, Saffron Terrorism and South Asian Regional Security (and don't be misled by the title on this one - the article states: "Using adversarial threat analysis framework, the paper first establishes Hindutva terror as a potent threat...", etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 12:24, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

The irony of the fact aside, that you have to rely on articles titles "Saffron Terror" to try and show how "Hindutva terror" is more common than the former; your own search results that you used to start this RFC clearly prove that in comparison to Saffron Terror, Hindutva terror is a barely used term. Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 16:10, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

Well it sure beats relying on just making the same impoverished straw man arguments over and over again. For the umpteenth time, you should see overlap of the terms in sources, given that they are the same bloody subject. That is a good thing. Everything that I have said on this page hinges on this assumption. That a source says "Saffron Terror" in the title and then goes on to describe the subject as about "Hindutva terror" then that tells you what I have been saying all along, which is that "Saffron" is very pretty sounding, but when it gets down to the nitty gritty of actually explaining the subject, more precise, descriptive terminology is required - and hence why my entire premise is based on WP:NDESC - again for the umpteenth time. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:15, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

This is reminiscent of the discussion about Islamic terrorism vs Islamist terrorism. The consensus there was to use Islamic. — kashmīrī ^TALK 10:41, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

And that page clearly defines what the term means! -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:12, 6 March 2023 (UTC)