Talk:Anfal campaign

I like how you "remove offensive wording" everywhere, Kassem.

Then invoke NPOV under false pretenses, while changing words like "expel" to "relocate." Again, you will cease this deliberate editing of NPOV wording into Wikipedia articles, or I will personally take you before mediation and/or arbitration.

Saddam Hussein

I'm not sure "Hussein" should be used wherever his name stands alone. See here Avalon 23:06, 23 November 2005 (UTC)

two articles about the same topic

hi, there is a second article about the anfal campain with the name 1988 Anfal campaign. can anyone put these two articles together? KureCewlik81 15:15, 7 March 2006 (UTC)

• There were actually several phases to the Anfal Campaign, which took place between 1986 and 1989... I have read that the events of 1988 were the most deadly during the campaign Garr1984 04:54, 9 July 2007 (UTC)§

Figures

This section should be reviewed and updated with better verifiable facts. I just did a quick check of a source and revised the number of churches destroyed during this campaign. I also checked a few other sources that ought to be replaced by better/more trustworthy sources. fno 07:32, 21 July 2006 (UTC)

Only one side of the story

This article, and the other similar article, only quotes sources from the Kurdish side of the story. What is the context of these killings? How do the Ba'athists explain themselves when questioned on this topic??--84.12.185.56 09:28, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

• I know that at Saddam Hussein's Arraignment, he said regarding the Anfal Campaign and more specifically the poison gas attack on Halabja, that he had "Heard about it" but had no further knowledge of it. I also know that there is an audio tape that has Chemical Ali talking about killing the kurds, saying, and I quote: "We will kill them all. We will kill them with chemical weapons. Who is going to do anything about it? The International Community?!? Fuck Them! Fuck Them And All Who Listen To Them!!! I will not attack them with chemicals just one day, but I will continue to attack them with chemicals for fifteen days." " and Saddam's voice can be heard on the tape saying something along the lines of "Yes, The Poison is Very Effective". I also know that, at any rate, Saddam thought the Kurds were in league with Iraq's Enemies, namely Iran, but I don't know how best to integrate this information into the article, or if it's even a good idea to do so. Garr1984 15:02, 2 July 2007 (UTC)§

• Yes there is no context here whatsoever. Saddam Hussein acted within the context of an open rebellion against the central government in Baghdad. A better comparison would be what General Sherman did to the South during the American Civil War, rather than the Nazis' extermination of Jews, gypsies, homosexuals, etc. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 63.80.193.9 (talk) 15:17, August 22, 2007 (UTC)

• There's no body of evidence showing that General Sherman tolerated rape or murder, though I'd suspect that rapes and murder occurred at a somewhat higher level than in civilian life. That's virtually inevitable, and absolutely nothing like a true rape atrocity or true massacre. He destroyed tons of property, and I mean tons. There doesn't seem to be a consensus that this led to the death of many civilians, though I'm sure it contributed to the death of at least a few dozen. In short the General was a proud and honorable soldier, clean as a whistle and no commiter of atrocities, whatever your view of his cause (I view it negatively). There can be no serious doubt that his ferociousness against civilian property shortened the war. He did invent 'total war', but only a fool could maintain that it would not have been invented soon anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.125.162.72 (talk) 22:06, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, this article is very one-sided and historically speaking the "information" about Anfal to date are uncorroborated claims from Kurdish officials, in particular from the PUK group and militia, and militia-organized interviews, using HRW and US Senator Galbraith as their soapbox. To my understanding there have been works in the Mideast, but are reserved to universities and libraries. In Western academia and journalism, there have been challenges to the Anfal claims, originating from the Kurdish officials -> HRW claims that form the basis of alleged "knowledge" on Anfal.

If "the other similar article" you refer to is the Halabja chemical attack Wiki article, then yes, it is in equally bad shape. The death counts it has originate from the Iranian government and the PUK militant group, which is very unreliable.

To add to this, another item is that the Iraqi government said some of the documents/recordings were unverifiable or forged. Even prominent Iraq War advocates, like Kanan Makiya, who of his own admission is responsible for making up many "rumors and stories without firmer basis in fact" regarding the Iraqi government, have doubted the authenticity of the more provocative records and more said there isn't evidence of genocide. Also, the alleged tape is without context.

The tape referred to by Garr is problematic for a number of reasons, and doesn't actually prove anything if you read the snippet provided by HRW, whether it is legitimate or not. Assuming this tape from May 26, 1988 is both real and not a convenient forging (the only evidence we have is a translation of a part of it in the HRW report), and that such presumably top secret records would be floating around outside Baghdad that militants could take in the late 80s or in 1991, even what is claimed does not say, what little they got translated for them by the PUK militants and reproduce from the tape, validity aside, is still bizarre for a number of reasons.

• The recording is from May 26, 1988; there are no known (only claimed with no corroboration) chemical attacks on civilians after or before for that matter March 1988 at Halabja, whose article is as one-sided and controversial as Anfal claims.
• The disparate parts quoted by Garr, and the sections in the text around it, are framed as a threat to people not leaving villages in the specific conflict area, not as something that was done or will be done. Considering there is no evidence of chemical attacks around the time or after May 26, 1988, the recording, real or not, is not useful as evidence to any such point.
• Translations for all of the PUK-selected "interviews", documents, recordings were not made by HRW, but rather by the "Kurdish interpreters", which would point to the PUK militant group that they closely worked with in developing the reports in particular supplying many of the "numbers" and the hand-picked "interviews".
• The alleged recording is in some sourcing used as "proof" of Halabja specifically, but HRW claims it is proof of 1987 attacks. This is inconsistent.. Even if the recording is legitimate, it's proof of neither.
• Majid claims to have made a chemical attack on the large city of Suleimaniyah, which never happened nor had ever been alleged.

The Sherman analogy from 2007 is apt, except in the Iraqi case there was much heavier fighting against Iranian forces and KDP+PUK militants than what Sherman faced against Confederates. The 2010 IP comment following it is very wrong. Even in patriotic American accounts of Civil War history, rape, murder, and widespread destruction by Sherman are well-established. Not sure what is meant in the IP reply above of "death of at least a few dozen" and other strange claims, unless meaning to claim that the Iraqi forces were "clean as a whistle" like Sherman, which is not true in either case.

"only quotes sources from the Kurdish side of the story"

To be specific, the bulk of claims are by a Kurdish militant group's, PUK (also repeated by the other main Kurdish militant group KDP), leaders and the "interviews" they selected for HRW, along with HRW's story-telling and extreme interpretations of any data or statement. Let's not make sweeping generalizations about a whole ethnic group, most of whose fighting men fought for the Iraqi government during the conflict at that. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 20:45, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

Question

I noticed a link at the bottom of the page to the Halabja massacre. Does the Al-Anfal campaign include the Halabja massacre or is it entirely separate?

Part of the Anfal I. [1] --HanzoHattori 11:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC) anwser

Halabja was during the Iran Iraq war, Halabja was a scene of battle not part of An-Fal.

There are true evidences that more than 182 000 innocent Kurdish (Kurdistanian) men, women and children were buried alive in the brutal Anfal-campaign that Saddam's dictatorship made in the (Southern) Kurdistan (in Iraq). More than 4500 villages were levelled with the ground - it is simple a GENOCIDE against the KURDISTANIAN people, who are the Kurds, the Turkomen and the Assyrians.

• History only tells one side of the story... the story they want us to hear... the fact of the matter is that these people were conspiring or at least sympathizing with Iraq's enemies, namely Iran, and Iran was also our enemy at the time. I am not saying that they had it coming, or that it was right for Saddam to commit these atrocities, it was not. It just seems to me that violence is all these people will ever understand... It it even foretold in the bible that as the descendants of Ishmael, Arabs would not be able to get with the descendants of Isaac (Christians and Jews), and that prophecy fulfills itself all over again on a daily basis. They can't even get along with each other. Garr1984 14:25, 12 July 2007 (UTC)§

References

There's a complete lack of references on this page. For something claiming to be a genocide of 182,000 human beings I'd expect a whole lot more than two references. 211.30.73.30 15:06, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It is not a claim, Mr. Taliban Supporter from Sydney :). It has been documented extensively by the Human Rights Watch.Heja Helweda 01:13, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The anfal-camoaign destroyed more than 5,000 kurdish villiages across southern Kurdistan and more than 182,000 civilian Kurds have been buried alive in huge massgraves in southern Iraq, were the graves have been till today not been found.

Actually many graves were located. Such as this:[2] --HanzoHattori 15:51, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

Can we have articles at least on Sultan Hashem Ahmed and Hussein Rashid Mohammed?

--HanzoHattori 20:25, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

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Reason for the operation?

The article does not mention why Saddam launched this attack, what is the background to it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.24.148.130 (talk) 05:40, 27 January 2010 (UTC)

Odd and confusing wording

Under "Name", we learn that

1. Al-Anfal is the eighth sura or chapter of the Qur'an which explains the triumph of 319 followers of the new Muslim faith over almost 900 pagans at the battle of Badr in 624 AD.
2. Al Anfal literally means the spoils (of war) and was used to describe the military campaign of extermination and looting commanded by Ali Hassan al-Majid.

Now, I happened by this page by accident and know nothing about this. But this wording seems to imply that "the military campaign of extermination and looting" actually took place in 624 AD ("was used" immediately after the mention of the battle of Badr...), which can't be true, since Ali Hassan al-Majid is a 20th century figure. Or were there two people with the same name? And if "the military campaign of extermination and looting" refers to the actual 20th century campaign this article is about, then that part of the second sentence is completely redundant. It should simply say "Al Anfal literally means the spoils (of war)."

Furthermore, there's another article, jash (which, by the way, looks like a candidate for AfD, unless there's a wealth of information on jash units), linked in the same paragraph, which states that "during the Battle of Badr in 624 AD, a military campaign of extermination and looting was commanded by Ali Hassan al-Majid". So were there two Ali Hassan al-Majids after all? --Jashiin (talk) 22:52, 29 January 2010 (UTC)

NPOV

This article is deeply one-sided and presents the Kurdish/HRW point of view. A neutral article would also present the Baathist point of view and their reasons for the campaign. In the present form, it is as complete as would be, say, an article about War in Afghanistan (2001–present) if it only focused on the numbers of Afghan civilians and insurgent "massacred" by Americans, without mentioning 9/11. --Itinerant1 (talk) 00:02, 30 January 2010 (UTC)

No mention of Reagan selling Saddam chemical weapons materials

This article doesn't have a word about the Reagan administration selling biological and chemical weapons to Saddam. The shipments to Iraq went on even after Saddam ordered the gassing of the Kurdish town of Halabja, in which at least 5,000 men, women and children died. The following article cites investigations by the U.S. Senate's committee on banking, housing and urban affairs: http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0908-08.htm Somehow I get the feeling that if Carter or Clinton had done this, Wikipedia would report it in detail. But when it comes to the GOP presidents, Wikipedia always whitewashes the record and gives them a pass. So much for "neutral point of view." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.86.119.173 (talk) 15:03, 6 August 2010 (UTC)

The truth doesn't need to be embellished

I feel the numbers in the second paragraph of the Summary are sensationalist and in part, self contradictory.

"The attacks were part of a long-standing campaign that destroyed approximately 4,500 Kurdish village in areas of northern Iraq and displaced at least a million of the country's estimated 3.5 million Kurdish population. Independent sources estimate 1,100,000 to more than 2,150,000 deaths and as many as 860,000 widows and an even greater number of orphans."

The first sentence establishes an estimated 3.5m pop, from which up to 2.15m or more are killed, leaving (a remaining?) 860K widows and 860K plus orphans. Applying the lower of two totals leaves only 380K or less in an 'other' category. If the higher of the two death statistics is taken then the combined total exceeds the 3.5m pop background figure. It’s also not clear what portion of the 1m displaced are included or excluded.

Other reputable sources cited within the article are nowhere near these numbers which seem to come from a single source. Exceptional claims should be substantiated by exceptional or multiple sources.

Skeptiod60 (talk) 04:06, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

File:Anfal campaing area.PNG

The map in the infobox which aims to show the areas targeted by al-Anfal operation are wrong.

I know, that at least the areas south of Kirkuk as well as the Makhmur district of Erbil governorate suffered under a heavy destruction during Anfal campaign by the Ba'ath regime. As sources, there is a case study by HRW (https://www.hrw.org/reports/2004/iraq0804/8.htm) as well as visual evidence by https://www.bing.com/mapspreview Many villages north and south of Makhmur are still today little more than dust and ruins.

Either we remove this map, or replace it with a better one.

Regards, Ermanarich (talk) 20:02, 20 August 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 21 December 2018

Anfal genocide → Kurdish genocide of 1986-1989

The "Kurdish genocide" is probably the second most common name for this event; the yearing format is inspired by the Indonesian mass killings of 1965–66 article. the "Anfal genocide" titling is odd particularly the lower casing of genocide. It would be more typical to refer to the event as simply "Anfal" or "Kurdish genocide" and mixing them together like that just sounds unnatural. — Preceding unsigned comment added by GoBotsters (talk • contribs) 13:59, 21 December 2018 (UTC)

Note: This RM didn't use the correct template, which was why it didn't go through. – Þjarkur (talk) 19:57, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Did Sweden recognise Anfal?

The Pravda source says that a unanimous decision to recognize the Anfal genocide was made December 5th, 2012, together with a decision to recognize West Sahara. However, the Riksdag protocol from the occasion says that the parliament decidet to (exhort the government to) recognize West Sahara, but that all other bills were turned down, including the ones about Anfal.

I have no explanation to the seemingly false statements of the Pravda source, and where similar claims on the web originates from. The other source gives a security warning when I try to access it. The same claim is on the Swedish Wikipedia, and I will raise the same question there. --St.nerol (talk) 21:48, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

The MoM from Riksdagen (link above) is clear. Sweden did *not* recognize Anfal as a genocide. Howcome the source mentioned (Pravda) falsely claimed this one can just speculate. The MoM from Riksdagen is the authorative source. V29 (talk) 09:41, 15 April 2021 (UTC)

The current replacement source provided from "gulanmedia" is worse than the Russian Pravda. Given this has been proven with the Swedish government's records that Sweden did not make an official legislative recognition or any recognition, I agree we can remove that. The claim for South Korea is a website peyamner.com that no longer exists. We should consider that for removal later. The recognition from Norway as claimed by a poor source was not a legislative action either, but a statement from a minister in "a parliamentary debate". Saucysalsa30 (talk) 19:55, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

The only other source for South Korea other than the defunct peyamner.com site [3] is a copy and paste a day later to gulanmedia.com [4]. I asked Korean speakers to see if they could find anything regarding this from Korean media or government records and minutes, but nothing. This claim seems to only originate from a relatively unknown local Iraqi Kurdish group. The KRG website does not report such an event either.

Norway did not recognize it either. While the source provided [5] is admittedly very biased and uses incorrect wording, what it does claim, assuming if true, is not a formal recognition or legislation, but that it was mentioned in a debate with no further detail on any vote, legislation, or other: "The Norwegian Foreign Minister, Espen Barth Eide, in a recent parliamentary debate recognised the judgement of the Iraqi High Court that Saddam Hussein’s’ Anfal campaign, including the chemical weapons attack on Halabja, constituted genocide."

Fair warning against future circular reporting. There are news articles that got their information from this Wikipedia article that Anfal was recognized by 4 countries, as seen in this 2019 MEE article, with no reference and no further detail. [6]

To date, the UK is the only country to recognize it and news and reports on this abound, unlike in the other 3 cases. The other cases have been single disproven or unsupported claims, or an editor's good faith misinterpretation of a poorly-written KRG website release. I'll leave this comment up for some time, but if we can't find reasonable claim to support these, then I or someone else can take the action of removing them. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 22:02, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 6 May 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. No prejudice against speedy renomination should any supporting evidence be provided. (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 09:36, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

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Anfal genocide → Kurdish genocide of 1986-1989 – See above Adam9007 (talk) 16:49, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. No evidence presented that "Anfal genocide" is not the WP:COMMONNAME, and the article's sources seem to call it variants of that.  — Amakuru (talk) 16:09, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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Requested move 15 May 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) ~ Aseleste (t, e | c, l) 09:13, 27 May 2021 (UTC)

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Anfal genocide → Anfal campaign – This name is much more common in reliable sources, for instance see NGRAMS[7] Google Scholar results as follows:

• "Anfal campaign" 2,500
• "Al-Anfal campaign" 381
• "Anfal genocide" 292
• "Al-Anfal genocide" 29

It is unlikely that there could be separate articles Anfal campaign and Anfal genocide, as the campaign was conducted in such a brutal way that many reliable sources consider it to be genocidal. However, "Anfal genocide" is definitely not the WP:COMMONNAME and should not be the article title. (t · c) buidhe 17:59, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom. The subject was in fact called a "campaign" until 2017, when a now-blocked sock boldly moved it to use the "genocide" name. We should only be using titles like that if they're supported by reliable sources, and are the WP:COMMONNAME though, something which the nom demonstrates is not the case. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 11:15, 17 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom and per Amakuru. BD2412 T 02:45, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Hamlat or harakat al-anfal?

The Arabic name in the beginning of this entry says حملة “hamlat” but the romanized transcription says “harakat” so that’s inconsistent. 195.169.148.102 (talk) 22:08, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Preventing future circular reporting

This article makes a number of claims going as far back as 2005 that were originally unsourced and since are still either unsourced, a source added that doesn't support or cover the claim, or poor sourcing of similar nature. Over the years, various media and even academic literature have stated figures that originated from Wikipedia. Some media have verbatim copy-pasted snippets of information from this article. For example, the claim of 1,754 schools destroyed, 2,450 mosques destroyed, and so on was put on this article in an IP edit from June 2005 [8] with the number of churches added in March 2006. [9]. A subsequent "source", a PDF with nothing more than a table with a source listed as "Assyrian Patriotic Party" and with no detail or verification of the claims or any evidence of the claimed perpetrator, was added on the churches line. [10] The number of churches destroyed was then "corrected" in July 2006. [11] To add to the messiness, in September 2006, the schools, hospitals, mosques, churches destroyed lines were merged into one line item, with the same non-"source" about the churches seemingly covering them all. [12]

This specific example regards content that has been unverifiable and unsourced since 2005. It has not become victim of circular reporting on Wikipedia yet, although other statements and claims on this article may have and I only looked into this one particular example for circular reporting, but it may in the future. Why? Both unreliable sourcing such as the PUK political party and militant group's media website [13] and ostensibly 'reliable' sourcing such as Huffington Post [14] have already taken these numbers, in the same ordering too, from this Wikipedia article. In the future, editors should be careful about adding sources that would lead to or would advance circular reporting or restoring content that was originally sourced because of circular reporting, which could happen with the provided example.

Circular reporting "is a situation in source criticism where a piece of information appears to come from multiple independent sources, but in reality comes from only one source", and on Wikipedia, "Wikipedia is sometimes criticized for being used as a source of circular reporting, particularly a variant where an unsourced claim in a Wikipedia article is repeated by a reliable source, often without citing the article; which is then added as a source to the claim on Wikipedia." Topics regarding Iraq are infamously plagued by circular reporting of claims and many unsubstantiated claims getting repeated, understandably as a result of the Gulf War, sanctions, and Iraq War period, and the Wiki article on circular reporting lists 2 such very famous Iraq-related events that have since been discredited, primarily because of US officials admitting their falsity, and not because of the work of more substantiated academia or criticism like on topics such as Anfal and others which often goes ignored. If I could in a few minutes locate and verify a significant error existing for 17 years, it would seem a more educated and lengthier effort would lead to a wide reformation of this article.

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The following warrants its own sections, but just food for thought that the article has a number of other significant issues. To point out one, the US government sponsored 1990s HRW reports from which almost the entirety of this Wiki article directly or indirectly stems from have had many of their claims, including some in this article, since been refuted or challenged by later literature, or otherwise were unsubstantiated or self-contradicting to begin with, and worse, their numbers of dead, villages destroyed, and other figures and information listed here come from a single PUK intelligence officer named Shorsh Resool, PUK being a militant group aligned with Iran's military forces against the Iraqi regime at the time. The resulting level of bias, exaggeration, and other unsubstantiated information is expected, much like in the case of the Katyn massacre which was considered a German atrocity due to Soviet claims which were admittedly far more substantiated than Resool's, before Soviet admission of Soviet responsibility with the USSR's collapse 50 years later, the curious omission of any mention Iranian and Peshmerga attacks on civilians in this same time period, and many other things. Resool claims to have had written a book with those details and HRW mentions this, but HRW later admitted Resool's book was not published and likely doesn't exist, which discredits many of the claims made on Anfal originally by Resool and by extension HRW. Many details are off, like HRW claims Anfal started in 1988, but this article claims it started in 1986? The claim on this article of as many as 250 separate chemical attacks nevermind the claim specifically being on civilians as an example is dubious at best and more likely egregious fiction. Such a significant and shocking event would have more than a few words on it in the limited available sourcing. Despite being a minor detail in what little sourcing it does exist, a couple books on Anfal has specifically challenged this among other claims too. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 20:53, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Saucysalsa30 Thanks for working on this article. I agree that high-quality sourcing is essential and I would like to see a variety of scholarly sources used. You mention books about Anfal, which do you think should be more heavily employed in the article? They could be added to the further reading section. (t · c) buidhe 23:46, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Buidhe Thank you. Before I continue, could you please later give feedback on the bullet points further below? I added a source to the "Further Reading" section already which is a book "Oil and the Kurdish Question" dedicated to critiquing and correcting some of the points made by the HRW, with most of the information supplied by the Kurdish PUK organization, reports especially Genocide in Iraq published in 1993, and by its extension its immediate successor reports which make the same claims. Subsequent works, news articles, etc mentioning Anfal have drawn on these HRW reports, adding little or nothing new in the process (an earlier 1991 HRW report was made largely on the status of refugees in Iran and Turkey although it includes its share of dubious claims like the later 1993 report, largely sourced from the PUK and KDP groups) For example, the "Oil" book refutes the claim of 40 towns destroyed by chemical attacks, which this Wiki article and its source incorrectly cite HRW saying 250, again another issue with the article. It proves Resool's book, used as a golden goose of information by HRW, as unpublished and unavailable, possibly nonexistent, that the limited number of interviews HRW drew most of their narratives and information from were anonymous except for 3 and were all organized by the local Peshmerga forces and calls into question the HRW report's legitimacy, among many other things. Sources like this [15] also criticize HRW's and US government's politicization and skew on captured Iraqi government documents and forgeries, which these documents HRW claims is the main cornerstone of their Anfal report, along with the anonymous interviews organized and held at gunpoint.

A point on context is important. Unfortunately the primary basis for the content on this Wikipedia article is on the surface decent quality, but in reality poor quality sourcing, that was produced with deep political involvement, especially from the Kurdish PUK and KDP groups and US government, that being the original HRW reports of the 1990s in particular "Genocide in Iraq". This was after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and Gulf War and during the sanctions regime, which you may recall led to possibly the greatest political and media campaign in US history against an individual nation in modern history [16] (PS: this source makes a few regrettable errors like claiming the Bush administration never directly tied Iraq with Al Qaeda or 9/11, but the overall point of the article is made well). This is the political environment in which the original HRW reports and subsequent literature was based on. HRW worked closely with the Pentagon and got most of its "information" on Anfal and especially numbers from a pro-Iran political and militia groups which had spent, including the KDP, since the 1940s fighting against the Iraqi government. Most of the information in the 1993 article for example comes directly from Resool or from anonymous interviews coordinated by the Kurdish Peshmerga forces, and from historically unrealized directives among captured but allegedly tampered documents. As a result, much of the article's content is dubious at best and a number of egregious claims exist.

The largest underlying issue you may find evident if you dig into this article and sourcing beyond this article is that that the overwhelming bulk of it, directly and later sourcing repeating the claims, derives from three individuals and anonymous militia-organized interviews: 1) George Black and Joost Hiltermann, especially the latter, responsible for the HRW works, who draw their information mostly from 1a) Shorsh Resool from whom the lion's share of the numbers (dead, villages destroyed, and more) and more provocative details of Anfal originate and as mentioned, HRW at the time claim were from his alleged book, and 1b) the dubious interviews organized by Peshmerga; and 2) Hiltermann's individual works which at times go beyond the excessive claims he made with HRW. Resool, an agent of the PUK organization that was taken at face value, would be similar to taking a Free Syrian Army officer at face value regarding the Turkish and Syrian governments and their atrocities, of which informal claims in their local media had included the killing of 3-5 million Syrian civilians. According to Hiltermann himself, "Very little has been written about Anfal." While true in the English language, more though not by much exists in Arabic and possibly other languages, but such works are seemingly isolated in-print only to universities and libraries in Iraq, Egypt, and other MENA countries as is common for academic literature in that region. However, the sources I noted earlier among potential others are a big step towards further details and criticisms around what exists in the Wikipedia article.

Here are a few points I see for improvement and I'd appreciate your commentary. This includes around framing, narrative, and very dubious claims:

• Proper attribution. The HRW, specifically Joost Hiltermann and George Black, reports admit to information in their report deriving from Shorsh Resool who they repeatedly mention in their reports, the dubious interviews, and, as criticized, a skewed interpretation of captured documents and possible forgeries. Despite this, not a mention is made of HRW's methodology and origin of their information is mentioned in this Wiki article.
• International recognition has been a mess. See the "Did Sweden recognise Anfal?" talk section. It's a shame that provably wrong or unverifiable information in this Wiki article has since been used in news media pointed out by people in that and this Talk sections.

The "Statistics" section says "According to Human Rights Watch", and then has claims and sources not from HRW.

• "Destroyed about 4,000 villages (out of 4,655) in Iraqi Kurdistan" - The 4,000 is in the HRW report but it is according to "Kurdish rebels has spoken of" and Shorsh Resool; this number of 4,655 is not in the HRW report or anywhere it seems
• "Between April 1987 and August 1988, 250 towns and villages were exposed to chemical weapons" - with a Michael Rubin as a source, citing the HRW report, which claims 40 so it's not clear where this 250 number comes from, and regardless this claim has since been challenged/refuted by "Oil" and at least another source I've seen.
• "Wiped out around 90% of Kurdish villages in the targeted areas." - Sourced from PBS not HRW, but the overall content in this source looks to be based on the HRW report
• "Made 2,000 Assyrian Christians, along with Kurds and others, victims of gas campaigns." HRW says nothing about this, and this claim on its own is very unique and dubious at best, nonsensical at worst, and HRW, despite other flawed claims regarding Assyrians, makes no such mention of "gas campaigns" or similar on Assyrians. The source claiming it is unfortunately inaccessible, being sold out in online bookstores and unavailable at libraries I've called despite Worldcat saying otherwise. Such claims, especially around something as extreme as the use of WMD, should not be mentioned so uniquely and casually. It merits a dubious tag if not removal.

Other refuted and dubious claims:

• The "concentration camps and extermination" section is very problematic. More on it HRW claiming, among other sources, a force of 250,000 Kurdish militants on the Iraqi government's side dedicating to fighting against the Peshmerga militants, not including Kurds part of the regular Iraqi armed forces, but claiming the fulfillment of extermination of *all* Kurdish fighting age men and that this very large pro-Iraq Kurdish forces was critical in such an action and at one point HRW seems to imply this was against themselves too without further explanation. There's little explanation other than some dramatic prose and conjecture explaining the absoluteness of this, despite the overwhelming majority of Kurdish fighters fighting on the Iraqi side, and in histories on the Iran-Iraq War, the Iraqi side having the biggest stake in reducing civilian casualties in their own territory without a mention of civilians killed by the other warring factions, who especially for the Iranian forces which carried out very bloody military campaigns in north-eastern Iraq during this time and had been committing atrocities, similar to Black/Hiltermann claims regarding Iraq, against their own Kurdish population, had no incentive or motivation to prevent any casualties of Iraqi civilians, Kurdish or otherwise. "Oil and the Kurdish Question" is one source that questions and refutes this in detail. The HRW report makes many extreme assertions without nuance as part of this, even likening it to the Holocaust which among many other errors and unverified claims based on information from politically-motivated militants, severely weakens the quality of the HRW and related sources. The HRW report does not stand up to the basest scrutiny as "Oil and the Kurdish Question" shows, and most likely would not exist, or would exist in a significantly different form, without the anti-Iraq craze in the US political and by extension media and academic sphere following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait and through the 2003 invasion and beyond. That whole section Concentration camps and extermination is solely based on shaky HRW claims.
• Origins of casualty figures. 100,000 dead is a number that comes from Shorsh Resool, according to the 1993 HRW report states, and is not made on any particular basis from reading the HRW report, like a bingo number. The 50,000 was Hiltermann and Black (HRW) cutting that in half. If Resool said 20,000, they'd likely have given 10,000. The 182,000 figure is made on no basis, which the article attributes to "Kurdish officials", namely specifically KDP leader Masoud Barzani. I'm fine with these numbers remaining because it is the *only* claim that has bothered to provide a number, but I think the KDP officer Resool's role should be made clearer and the lack of academic basis taken to this, in contrast for example to surveys and studies on Iraq War civilian casualties.

The Choman Hardi book is full of substantial errors and extreme statements.

• For example, it claims that "Human Rights Watch was able to collect over 50,000 names", yet the HRW report makes no such claim at all. It just calls 50,000 an "estimate" without further discussion. Easy to miss errors like this are rife.
• Hardi's book overwhelmingly relies on the 1993 HRW report and later Hiltermann works and Resool, among other dubious cites, which is inherently problematic. The references in the Wiki article for pages 19-21 regarding the Anfal campaigns are short passages originating from the author, and in the few instances something in those passages is cited, it is the 1993 HRW report. These passages are used in "Military operations" section.
• One of the controversial passages in the 1993 HRW report, and mentioned in the Wiki article referencing Iraq's Crime of Genocide (a republishing of the 1993 report, with another report included), is HRW's assertions based on little more than an alleged, unique order (seemingly no other captured Iraq document is so extreme; see the source about forgeries) stating to indiscriminately kill people in a zone of villages and kill all males between age 15 and 70. Hardi takes this further with the Wiki article stating "The male population between 15 and 50 had either been killed or fled", in the book referring to the Kurdish population in general. This very extreme claim used in the Wiki article comes without further elaboration in the source. For example, there's no case of an extreme change in demography and provably this claim is false, and like mentioned in sources would be impossible in any case with most Kurdish fighting men under arms on the Iraqi side.
• "In 1989, army engineers destroyed the last major Kurdish town near the Iranian border. Qala Dizeh had a population of 70,000 before it was razed. Afterwards, the surrounding area was considered a "prohibited area"." - This cites a source that cites HRW which is the only original claim of this. HRW does not claim the destruction of other "major towns and cities" including the major city of Slemani. HRW offers no citations to support the extreme claim that this city was entirely demolished for unknown reasons, not even Resool or the anonymous interviews.

Lots of other issues to point out with some of the sources and content in this Wiki article, but this is getting long. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 05:02, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Buidhe I noticed you've committed substantial effort and work to the Assyrian genocide article. To use it as an example, unlike Anfal, there has been significant, varied research and discoveries on the Assyrian genocide. Most sourcing I've seen, especially claims by Assyrian and Armenian groups, claim 750,000 deaths in that event. It's only because other people publishing works contesting that number, for example, and the efforts of editors that it appears accepted that there is to be no mention of 750,000 is on that Wikipedia article despite 750,000 being the most common figure provided in various media and publications. That's one of many such considerations of factuality regarding that topic. If you may be thinking the topic of Anfal is similar, unfortunately it is not. Anfal has only a fraction of English-language works related to it, and most, like discussed above draw largely on a single poor source. According to the topic's most zealous and dubious writer too, Hiltermann, it has generally been treated unimportantly by academia, so the lion's share of what we "know" about it is the demonstrated politically motivated reports of HRW which worked closely with the Pentagon and got most of its information and especially numbers from a couple political/militia groups which had spent since the 1940s fighting against the Iraqi government. The only casualty figures provided were done on no academic basis. While dozens of separate researches make educated and surveyed estimates on the Assyrian genocide, Anfal is quite different: an unsubstantiated and randomly picked 182,000 from a militant leader, an equally unsubstantiated 100,000 from a militant officer, and 50,000 by the rights activist working with the Pentagon who thought the officer's figure was far too high and felt half of that was a compromise. While this is still extreme and merits discussion and scrutiny, there's no other estimates regarding casualties, and it seems entirely ignored of how many of that estimate were caused by Iranian and Peshmerga forces. Speaking of Assyrians, why has the killing and expulsion of over 1.3 million Assyrians from Iraq since 2003 unfortunately not been the subject of any English-language literature I've been aware of, except various news reports briefly noting the population drop? Saucysalsa30 (talk) 05:20, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Especially where ostensibly reliable sources disagree—or red flag claims are made by one source without corroboration—I would like to see more attribution and explanation of where information comes from. (Reliable sources in other languages can also be cited) If it's impossible to verify info such as alleged international recognitions or 2,000 Assyrian deaths, it needs to be removed at once. Better not have information than mislead our readers with inaccuracy.

Later researchers like Hardi may take HRW at face value due to lack of other sources for the information they did not verify themselves through their research. The value of their books is potentially the original contribution in studying Anfal survivors (the article should have a section on this), not regurgitating the HRW report. I would cite the original source where possible and attribute as necessary. I also think that a historiography/legacy section covering primary sources and Kurdish "memory" of the event would help put the article into context.

I agree that there is not enough research into the Anfal campaign to really definitively say how many deaths—you would need serious demographic research like that which was done on Rwandan genocide and resulted in lowering the death estimate by a lot. The original 1999 HRW report on Rwanda is still well regarded today but has been superseded by more recent research that sadly does not exist on Anfal. I completely disregard any purported death toll that comes from a government, lobby group or non-academic website—it is not a reliable source for that type of information. (t · c) buidhe 07:02, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

@Buidhe Thank you. Another issue with Hardi is the many one-off extraordinary statements like "The male population between 15 and 50 had either been killed or fled" in this Wiki article, which in the Hardi book is without citation or substantiation. I looked into this more and this seems to be drawn from a specific section of the HRW report based on an event at Topzawa from a couple of the controversial interviews, and in the full passage: "A little later, the men were further divided by age--small children kept with their mothers, the elderly and infirm shunted off to separate quarters, and men and teenage boys considered to be of an age to use a weapon herded together. Roughly speaking, this meant males of between fifteen and fifty, but there was no rigorous check of identity documents--and strict chronological age seems to have been less of a criterion than size and appearance." Hardi somehow takes this to mean killed and extrapolates to the whole Kurdish population, which is problematic for many reasons, a couple of which were noted before. Agreed there may be other value in the book, in particular on victims and survivors, but claims on the operations and deaths and related topics are not one of them.

The problem with Anfal deaths is the only death toll only comes from government, lobby groups, etc. Here, it comes from the groups PUK and often repeated by KDP, who are not only the two main Kurdish government parties but also the two primary Kurdish militant groups. In 1975, PUK split off from KDP, which had been engaged in active warfare in Iraq since the 1940s.

With regards to the original HRW claims, there's two original bases for the 100,000 figure.

• The first is a "remark was reported to Middle East Watch by Kurdish officials present at the meeting" between Kurdish leaders and Ali Hassan al-Majid in 1991, in which the "Kurdish officials" claimed that when charging the 182,000 number, they claim al-Majid responded "It couldn't have been more than 100,000". There's nothing to corroborate this meeting happened in the first place, that this was said at all and if so that this was said as a dark humor to annoy the "Kurdish officials", or if he said something like 10,000 or 1,000 or anything at all. The fact that HRW uses this claim in the first place as their evidence for the 100,000 figure is reaching far.
• The second are sources directly attributing this to the PUK officer Shorsh Resool who worked closely with HRW and provided them with many of their numbers/statistics. [17]

The 50,000 figure? HRW made no explanation for this. They cut the 100,000 in half, and called it a "conservative estimate". Along with the many problems in their report, including the deep political involvement and errors and egregious methodology and extrapolations, I'm curious why HRW in any of its reports never mentions Iranian and Peshmerga actions against civilians during the same period?

It gets murkier. Much later in 2007 and 2008, Hiltermann retroactively and very confusingly claimed that "HRW's" estimate of 50,000-100,000 in its 1993 report (and by extension, the 1995 re-publish) actually came from an organization under the PUK domain in Slemani called "Committee for the Defence of Anfal Victims’ Rights". This is confusing because Hiltermann claims they completed their survey in 1995, yet Hiltermann and Black were already claiming in the 199e report it was HRW's estimate, without any attribution or mention of this other organization. Seemingly this organization was under enormous political pressure to exaggerate numbers and it was still not enough, considering their director was forced to flee Iraq according to Hiltermann. [18] I would relegate them to the same category, if not worse given the PUK oversight, as the Assyrian groups and other lobby groups claiming 750,000 dead in the Assyrian genocide.

What do we do here considering there isn't a proper death toll for Anfal? Do we scrap death tolls altogether? Do we keep HRW's claim based on its poor sources but include the caveats and specifying the origins for their numbers?

Since I've seen several criticisms regarding the claims made by HRW, including the "40 villages gassed", the methodology, and other things, I think we can at least add a "Criticism" section.

The HRW report is confident that the true number is locked away in "a Baghdad archive": "Somewhere in a Baghdad archive there exists, almost certainly, a complete dossier of the missing Kurds: some may still be alive, five years after their capture." We are in the year 2022, 19 years after the US invasion of Iraq, and just like critics noted in the 1990s regarding the captured and forged documents, we still have nothing about deaths and missing Kurds, and even as late as 2007, Hiltermann, claimed "It is not known how many Kurds died during Anfal", proceeded by repeating the original tolls.

Tangentially related, the Halabja massacre is equally bad in this respect. The oft mentioned number of 5,000 dead came from other Iranian government at the time, along with figures such as 4,000, 7,000, etc because evidently it was difficult to keep the numbers straight. Ex: "Iran's delegate to the United Nations said Monday that 5,000 people had been killed and 5,000 wounded in a chemical attack on Halabja." [19] The claim of 3,200 was, you guessed it, Shorsh Resool claiming to have collected exactly 3,200 names from refugees in Iran, and this at least in English from what I can find was originally mentioned in the 1993 HRW report, citing Resool. Reporters at the time flown into the city by Iran reported around 100 or "more than 100", and noted the lack of verification of the Iranian claims. [20][21] The culpability of the massacre is a whole other issue, and the Western narrative actually changed without new evidence or details following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, and suffers from many of the same issues that the general HRW Anfal claims do. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 22:25, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

What I would do is not try to have death toll in the infobox as that seems too definitive. I started a death toll section in the body where each of the proposed figures for the death toll can be given with appropriate attribution and explanation of where numbers come from. Then let the reader decide what to make of it. (t · c) buidhe 22:55, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

I added clarification on the death toll section to make it clearer what evidence is provided for the numbers. I will likely remove the retroactive Hiltermann claim, which is particularly problematic. The only mention of the "Anfal Victims’ Rights" organization and their claim is Hiltermann, and another source that mentions it, likely learned from Hiltermann which it cites, but doesn't appear to use it. Hiltermann makes a critical error, anachronism, or disingenuousness that what HRW claims was their estimate in 1993 (again, the 1995 report was a publishing of HRW's 1993 report and including another report; no difference in information or studies) without any mention of such a survey, Hiltermann a decade and a half later claims the 1993 estimate was based on an unpublished survey done in 1995. The survey itself was not published, adding to the problem, and nothing is known about the "Anfal Victims’ Rights" group other than it appears to be a political or lobby group under enormous political pressure to produce very high numbers, seeing as the authorities still were not happy with an already exaggerated result and forced the director out of the country. From Hiltermann's vague framing and anachronism, it would seem the "survey" drew from the HRW report rather than the other way around.

Going back to your great statement, "I completely disregard any purported death toll that comes from a government, lobby group or non-academic website—it is not a reliable source for that type of information", I'll repeat that original death tolls given are directly based on government and lobby groups according to HRW. All other claims either repeat the "50,000-100,000" and "182,000" originally claimed by Kurdish opposition political leaders to HRW or round figures, like sometimes the 182,000 is rounded down to 180,000 or up to 200,000. If anything we should disregard all death tolls since there is nothing academic in nature, but to have something, the original claims (from "Kurdish leaders" to HRW) can be kept. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 17:11, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

An intriguing statement made in the HRW report is: "Somewhere in a Baghdad archive there exists, almost certainly, a complete dossier of the missing Kurds" (referring to the Anfal deaths). This view serves as part of their basis of confidence of their claims made in the report. Unfortunately to date, including after the 2003 invasion of Iraq when Coalition forces took control of all Iraqi records and most officials of interest, such a dossier or anything related does not exist. If anyone is aware of such an item, it would be helpful to have. However, the last 30 years have turned up nothing and it's as "real" as most of the questionable claims made in these HRW reports which suffered from heavy US government and PUK interference, drawing the extent of its information and narratives from militant-organized "interviews" and claims made by the militia group's officials, and other unique claims and stretches.

Another intriguing statement from HRW is that the name "Anfal" was not used by Iraq, according to HRW, which calls into question who made up the name "Anfal". Likely a name invented by the controversial Kanan Makiya in a 1992 article "The Anfal" but it obviously was not a name given by Iraq/Iraqi government. HRW writes: "Although there is no definitive evidence that the Iraqi army was yet using the word "Anfal" to describe its operations, these artillery shells may be considered to all intents and purposes the first shots fired in the Anfal campaign."

The "First Anfal", "Second Anfal", etc used in the Wiki article are likewise not names for operations or campaigns from the Iraqi government. These are invented by HRW, assigning a town/region and dates for "each" Anfal with narratives based on the "interviews". From a historical and military perspective, the naming of separate operations, or the use of the name Anfal in general which did not come from Iraq, have no basis since it originates from HRW. The only adds to the enormity of issues with the HRW report. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 18:30, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

"Another intriguing statement from HRW is that the name 'Anfal' was not used by Iraq, according to HRW, which calls into question who made up the name 'Anfal'. .. HRW writes: 'Although there is no definitive evidence that the Iraqi army was yet using the word 'Anfal' to describe its operations' ..." Please read more carefully. HRW clearly attributes the Anfal name to the Iraqi military, and does not suggest that it was "made up" by others. The use of "yet" in the quoted sentence simply indicates that earlier phases of repression against the Kurds may have predated the formal initiation of the operation dubbed Anfal. You should (and probably do) know better.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 18:59, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

(inserted comment):
TheTimesAreAChanging, you should be the one asked, "Please read more carefully." Saucysalsa30 above seems to personally present a view that as the name 'Anfal' was not used by Iraq" this "calls into question who made up the name 'Anfal'". You should strike your above unfounded attack above (of which, if I were to echo an element of your WP:TPG violation, I'd say "You should ... know better.") GregKaye 09:25, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Nice to see you here, GregKaye, considering that I believe these are your first edits on a topic unrelated to Depp v. Heard in at least two months: It's great to see an editor expand his area of interest/expertise! Unfortunately, Saucysalsa30's description of the contents of the HRW report is a truly surreal misrepresentation of the source: "Anfal—'the Spoils'—is the name of the eighth sura of the Koran. It is also the name given by the Iraqis to a series of military actions which lasted from February 23 until September 6, 1988. While it is impossible to understand the Anfal campaign without reference to the final phase of the 1980-1988 Iran–Iraq War, Anfal was not merely a function of that war. Rather, the winding-up of the conflict on Iraq's terms was the immediate historical circumstance that gave Baghdad the opportunity to bring to a climax its longstanding efforts to bring the Kurds to heel." (p. 3); "The Iraqi regime may have selected this sura to legitimize its war on the Kurds by invoking a battle between two regular armies, and against a numerically stronger adversary." (p. 31); "All of the tendencies that had been implicit in earlier phases of Iraq's war on the Kurds reached their culmination in 1987-1988 with the endgame of the Iran–Iraq War and the campaign known as al-Anfal. In the captured Iraqi documents that are now being studied by Middle East Watch, the term crops up with great frequency: villages are 'purified' in the course of 'the Heroic Anfal Operation'; the reason for the flight of villagers into neighboring countries is given as 'Anfal'; an 'Anfal' oilfield is inaugurated and a special 'Anfal Section' of the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party created in commemoration of the event; one of the government contractors hired to work on the drainage of Iraq's southern marshes is the 'Anfal Company.' It is evident from the documents, and from the supporting testimony of those who survived Anfal, that the resources of the Iraqi state were deployed and coordinated on a massive level to assure the success of the operation." (p. 51) None of that is remotely consistent with Saucysalsa30's observation that "Another intriguing statement from HRW is that the name 'Anfal' was not used by Iraq, according to HRW, which calls into question who made up the name 'Anfal'."TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:08, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Buidhe, I respect many of your deeply-researched edits on the Holocaust (although they often seem intended to protect the "singularity" of the Holocaust, Guenter Lewy-style) but you should be wary of engaging with Saucysalsa30 and his endless walls of text (almost all of which constitute original research that is effectively unusable in article space). Saucysalsa30 has a long history of mindlessly regurgitating official Iraqi Ba'th Party propaganda in a totally uncritical fashion, citing statements by Saddam Hussein as credible documentation, while inappropriately labelling reliably published (if flawed) material as WP:FRINGE, and even casting doubt on Russia's role in hacking the DNC in 2016 (though this may have been more to "retaliate" against me rather than on the merits).

To give just one example, Saucysalsa30 repeated apeshit claims by the Iraqi front-group Democratic Revolutionary Front for the Liberation of Arabistan (DRFLA) to be "a purely Iranian group (...) undermined by allegations that it was backed by the Iraqi government" without a source or adequate contextualization to clarify that the DRFLA in fact relied on Iraqi sponsorship (and disappeared almost immediately after said sponsorship ceased). Moreover, Saucysalsa30 has been known to unnecessarily inject race/nationality into content disputes, as seen when he baselessly referred to Iranian editor Qahramani44 as being engaged in "an ideological battle (...) against 'Arabs'" (despite this being a wild distortion of Qahramani44's statements) and in his attempt on this article to label Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi "an Iraqi Kurd," rather than the more neutral "who is of Kurdish descent" (which you appropriately reverted).

Now, you might think that Saucysalsa30 is just skeptical of big, conveniently round numbers in a narrow, apolitical sense, but this is not borne out by the record. To the contrary, Saucysalsa30's incredulity disappeared when discussing claims that Iran suffered a staggering 1 million troops KIA during the Iran–Iraq War; in that discussion, Saucysalsa30 described the "1 million" figure as plausible, likely because it comports with his primary source for factual information—i.e., official Saddam-era Ba'th Party propaganda—despite being familiar with an academic source establishing that "In internal memoranda, Iraqi intelligence estimated Iranian losses from the beginning of the war through August 1986 as: killed or missing, 228,000—258,000".

Such selectivity and evasiveness are the hallmarks of Saucysalsa30's editing style. There is a reason why he has taken 35,000 bytes to repeat himself about some cited Iraqi documents from the 1990s that may not be fully authenticated (e.g., "skew on captured Iraqi government documents and forgeries, which these documents HRW claims ... "; "captured but allegedly tampered documents"; "a skewed interpretation of captured documents and possible forgeries"; "just like critics noted in the 1990s regarding the captured and forged documents") and to hint that the death toll in Halabja may have been 100 or so, while ignoring the fact that fully authenticated Iraqi archives declassified after 2003 put the death toll in Halabja in the vicinity of 2,000–3,500 (mostly civilians but including military casualties as well) (according to a source that, again, Saucysalsa30 is familiar with and has cited many times in the past). Sure, the "5,000" figure may not be exactly right (and the uncertainty is probably even greater in regards to the entire Anfal campaign), but the order of magnitude is more or less clear: For Saucysalsa30 to maintain that there were actually only 100 deaths and that Iran caused many of them is not dissimilar to Holocaust deniers who say that the Jewish death toll was 600,000 rather than 6 million and that Allied bombing exacerbated conditions in the concentration camps. In sum: Honest, good faith editors generally do not engage in this level of rhetorical obfuscation. Please be aware of who you are engaging with, and how they might seek to manipulate you.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 19:56, 30 July 2022 (UTC)

@Buidhe, unfortunately this user has stalked, harassed, and slandered me in the past, including engaging in attacks and meatpuppetry, for doing nothing other than proving him wrong a couple times and dispute boards taking my side on the matters. This is another such instance of unprovoked harassments, lying, insults, and slander. This is a pattern of regular behavior too, and when editors bother to report him, he does get blocked. [22] As I'll demonstrate below, this is an aggressive user that resorts to twisting and slander against anyone who has ever had the misfortune of proving him wrong on some of his personal biases with regards to Wikipedia editing. Within the last month, a user @GregKaye has asked him multiple times to stop attacking people, including GregKaye himself. [23][24] TheTimesAreAChanging's aggressive behavior is very common, and he'll make personal attacks as he sees fit against anyone who contests anything he says like he is doing here.

While I'm impressed he's spent potentially hours putting together this slander piece, it's so misframed and such a blatant attack as to have no value at all, by a user with a long track record of blocks and harassing users.

To give one example, in one of the last times I was very active on Wikipedia, he embarrassingly fought hard to claim that a user-generated content website https://iranchamber.com/, whose articles are copied from from existing works or original pieces without any citation or reference by the website itself such as this. https://www.iranchamber.com/history/iran_iraq_war/iran_iraq_war1.php When I made a change to remove a claim made by a user-generated website, which is textbook not reliable under any circumstances [25]. TheTimes' response? Refusing to defend the use of this textbook unreliable source and engaging in meatpuppetry and edit warring right alongside Qahramani44, as done here. [26] and on the Talk page[27][28] and making edits with an edit note to defend this bad source [29]. I took it to RSN [30], in which consensus was that this was not a reliable source: "Ultimately the WP:ONUS to prove RS is on the party seeking to use the source, and there's zero evidence that this really is a RS (and plenty to the contrary)".

Despite this conclusion, TheTimes was not having it. He was still trying to defend the use of this source with "Iran Chamber Society seems to be widely used on Wikipedia articles related to Iran and its history". [31] The result of all this? The unreliable source was removed from the Iraqi invasion of Iran article [32].

Just pointing out that this is typical behavior for TheTimes. Aggressively pushing narratives to the point of defending extremely unreliable sources, before and even after there's external discussion on it.

As part of that, BOTH Qahramani44 and TheTimesAreAChanging stalked me on other Wikipedia articles such as Ba'athism to harass me further.

It was at this point as part of the various harassments on me in January 2021 that administrator EvergreenFir had to intervene and issue TheTimesAreAChanging a stern warning. [33]

To TheTimesAreAChanging and this disgusting, slanderous comment, first, I'd like to point out that you're wrong and twisting things on each allegation you make, your insults are disgusting, and you're obviously still upset because you were proven wrong multiple times in 2020-2021, which you link to edits from then, and this is you trying to get your "payback" because you're not too great at this whole editing thing. Even buidhe has been involved in a discussion proving your point wrong where you still tried to defend an unreliable source after attacking me so much over it (more on that below). Secondly, this has nothing to do with the Talk page or article at all. It's irrelevant and nothing more than childish insults.

After the extended slander and harassment comment full of misframings and cherry-picking, unrelated with anything to do in this Talk page or article, which is not the first or even tenth time you've engaged in such behavior against people, I'd suggest firstly improving on your behavior. You were just recently asked directly to not attack or demean people.[34]

Regarding "Saddam Hussein", last I checked, the Washington Post isn't Saddam Hussein, and yes, it is common on Wikipedia to attribute statements made by figures. This overall matter was about the very minority and largely uncorroborated claim that "annexation of Khuzestan" was a goal in the war, with plenty of evidence and academia to the contrary. Why didn't you link the dozen academic sources (which is a small sampling) I gave in this diff putting this uncorroborated claim you were aggressiving defending? [35] Your response to being proven wrong and your ego bruised? You called me a "small child" and other denigrating language in your sarcastic response.[36] The end result of all this? The "annexation of Khuzestan" claim was removed from the Iran-Iraq War article, much to TheTimes' dismay.

Apparently, things are all a conspiracy to you as in this diff[37] where you claim: "Note that sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry by pro-Iraqi/Arab nationalist accounts is common in this topic area." Thanks for confirming your deeply-held personal biases with this conspiracy theory.

"Casting doubt"[38] No, I did not cast doubt. Again with your misframings and bad tone. I simply noted that 2 users were providing sources, while others (which include yourself) were adding nothing of value at all. Attacking users with Wikipedia policies is not constructive. You should learn to be more collaborative instead of always attacking and bludgeoning.

Regarding DRFLA, "repeated apeshit claims"? Nice personal attack, but no, I read through the source and edited to what it states. That's what the source said. The fact you claim "without a source or adequate contextualization to clarify that the DRFLA in fact relied on Iraqi sponsorship" is purely disingenuous on your part. You are embarrassingly wrong.

There was nothing baseless regarding you and Qahramani44, given both you and Qahramani44 were stalking and harassing me across multiple articles, and given him calling me an "Arab nationalist" (a white American guy, right) and other related insults [39] with dozens of other comments making similar personal attacks, Qahramani's edit notes and comments at the time that everything is some form of "propaganda" by Arabs and Arab countries, including his (and yours) stalking and harassing me across multiple articles and personal attacks, my comment on a simple observation was justified. You had engaged in meatpuppetry with him, engaging in stalking, harassment, and edit warring. Very shameful behavior on your part. You then tried to get me blocked, with your meatpuppetry for support, and that backfired. The admin EvergreenFir sternly warned you to stop. [40]

Qahramani44, like you, adds nothing to the discussion except personal attacks and his own personal opinions, and even copywriting, followed by denial and more personal attacks. [41]. Both of you in your meatpuppetry made dozens of such attacking comments. Unlike you two, I actually read through sources. You both were engaging in being disruptive, and EvergreenFir had to get involved to end your harassment.

As part of this, EvergreenFir removed TheTimesAreAChanging's comment, telling him to "Stop the bullshit". [42]

If I'm being blunt, the only "wild distortion" is the diff you hyperlinked[43], just like the rest of your insults and slander.

You're wrong about the "inappropriate labeling" because JBchrch made an error which you linked[44] which was corrected on the noticeboard by Hemiauchenia. [45]: "Its not an academic press. Popular press publications spout all sorts of crap. A book should never be considered reliable simply by the virtue of being published by a well known press. Chariots of the Gods? was published by G. P. Putnam's Sons, a reputable publisher. Hemiauchenia (talk) 09:24, 10 January 2021"

Also, JBchrch clarifies himself, "Saucysalsa30 is not challenging the reliability of the source in general, though, he is challenging the coverage of a specific quote." Again, you are wrong, Times, and apparently you still need to learn what that meaning of a reliable source is as with the iranchamber.com example.

In any case, the overall discussion was specifically with regards to a specific red flag claim (like many others in Coughlin's extreme book claiming such conspiracy theories as Iraq being behind 9/11, the WMDs, etc), which was so extreme that the Wikipedia article for it was deleted. [46] The end result of all of this? Con Coughlin's outlandish claim, whose only evidence of existing is from a single sentence from a 1989 book, was removed from the Ba'athism article.

> "label Conservative MP Nadhim Zahawi "an Iraqi Kurd," rather than the more neutral "who is of Kurdish descent"

That is what the source said, he is an Iraqi Kurd. Why leave out his nationality and the country he was born and raised in? Also you're wrong. It doesn't look like it was reverted. If you look at the diffs [47], there were within minutes of each other was reverted and you can see that a paragraph was moved, so it looks like that wasn't reverted but was was overwritten if Buidhe and I were editing at the same time. You should do your research before making an attack.

Regarding 1 million Iranian casualties, for example, here is an Iranian historian Arvand Abrahamian [48] in an academic source in which 1 million is sourced, and was present on the Wikipedia article you mention diff until some people upset about academic sources removed it.

You are calling an Iranian historian basing his claim from Iranian officials as "Saddam-era Ba'th Party propaganda" as an attack on me? You realize how ridiculous your claim is? This is very embarrassing for you.

Yes, there are sources, including by the person who is the director of these records, Kanan Makiya, claiming forgeries especially for the most provocative documents, and that there's no 'smoking gun'. I already linked this in the Talk page. Why do you claim I didn't? [49] Your biased and unacademic approach to your editing mixed in with this skewing to back up your attacks is exhibited further.

Equating me with Holocaust deniers? What kind of sick insult is this? You really are behaving out of line. For one, the 5,000 number originates from the Iranian government, which is uncontroversial, and I provided a source for that in the Talk page edit you link. I realize you didn't know that, but that's not an excuse to insult people. [50] As @Buidhe pointed out in this Talk page[51], such sources are not reliable for this type of information. The Iranian government is the origin of this figure. That you're defending this demonstrates further you advocate for unreliable and unfounded claims. Yes, there's plenty of coverage of the same journalists Iran organized them and brought into the town and reporting 100 to 200 [52][53] among many other sources, and stating that Iran's claims could not be "verified", which aren't to this day. Just because you have very limited knowledge of this history, instead of spending time to learn, you prefer to attack and insult people so persistently.

This slander, lying, harassment, personal attacks is absolutely unacceptable behavior. You speak of honest, good faith editors, but someone who makes such a toxic attack and slander and who exhibit very poor analytical and editing skills is the definition of a very vitriolic, poor editor. Please reconsider and work on your behavior or consider taking a break from this website considering this is normally how you engage with people. Saucysalsa30 (talk) 06:51, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

• @TheTimesAreAChanging: please strike PA comments such as on "selectivity and evasiveness". There is an amount that could be said on this in the other direction. Please consider talking to editors such as Saucysalsa30 more directly and engage less in talking to others about them. GregKaye 09:55, 31 July 2022 (UTC)
  • People in glass houses ([54], [55], etc.)...TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 16:08, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Correcting the record

I'm concerned that two statements above, for whatever reason, are extraordinarily false or misleading, and need to be corrected:

• Statement 1 ([56], [57]) "Tangentially related, the Halabja massacre is equally bad in this respect. The oft mentioned number of 5,000 dead came from other Iranian government at the time, ... Reporters at the time flown into the city by Iran reported around 100 or 'more than 100', and noted the lack of verification of the Iranian claims. The culpability of the massacre is a whole other issue, and the Western narrative actually changed without new evidence or details following the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, and suffers from many of the same issues that the general HRW Anfal claims do."—Saucysalsa30, 22:25, 29 July 2022 (UTC).
  • As a source, the editor links (twice) to a March 24, 1988 article in The Washington Post titled "POISON GAS ATTACK KILLS HUNDREDS". For context, the Halabja massacre occurred on March 16, and the WaPo article documents that an entire week later "More than 100 bodies of women, children and elderly men still lay in the streets, alleys and courtyards of this now-empty city". Contrary to what the editor leads others to believe, neither this reporting, nor any other contemporary reporting, nor more recent retrospective sources, suggest that the entire death toll in Halabja could have possibly been as low as 100. Fully authenticated Iraqi archives declassified after 2003 put the death toll in Halabja in the vicinity of 2,000–3,500 (mostly civilians but including military casualties as well). The WaPo report continues:

Iraq denies responsibility for what happened in this valley 150 miles northeast of Baghdad last Wednesday at 2 p.m. when, according to survivors, a single warplane appeared from the west and dropped one or more chemical bombs that dispersed a deadly yellow-and-white cloud through the Kurdish city, killing hundreds and perhaps thousands of residents. Iran has estimated that 4,000 civilians died in Halabja either from gas poisoning or from the intensive Iraqi bombing that followed. The figure could not be independently verified. ... [Contrary to Iraq's denials,] [e]vidence is plentiful that the Iraqi Army was here in strength. ... Halabja survivors said in interviews that they were certain the gas attack was launched from an Iraqi warplane because it came after the battle for the city was over and Iraqi ground forces had withdrawn or surrendered.

• Statement 2 ([58]) "Another intriguing statement from HRW is that the name 'Anfal' was not used by Iraq, according to HRW, which calls into question who made up the name 'Anfal'."—Saucysalsa30, 18:30, 30 July 2022 (UTC).
  • Even a cursory examination of "Genocide in Iraq: The Anfal Campaign Against the Kurds" would show the above statement to be false:

Anfal—"the Spoils"—is the name of the eighth sura of the Koran. It is also the name given by the Iraqis to a series of military actions which lasted from February 23 until September 6, 1988. While it is impossible to understand the Anfal campaign without reference to the final phase of the 1980-1988 Iran–Iraq War, Anfal was not merely a function of that war. Rather, the winding-up of the conflict on Iraq's terms was the immediate historical circumstance that gave Baghdad the opportunity to bring to a climax its longstanding efforts to bring the Kurds to heel.—Page 3

The Iraqi regime may have selected this sura to legitimize its war on the Kurds by invoking a battle between two regular armies, and against a numerically stronger adversary.—Page 31

All of the tendencies that had been implicit in earlier phases of Iraq's war on the Kurds reached their culmination in 1987-1988 with the endgame of the Iran–Iraq War and the campaign known as al-Anfal. In the captured Iraqi documents that are now being studied by Middle East Watch, the term crops up with great frequency: villages are "purified" in the course of "the Heroic Anfal Operation"; the reason for the flight of villagers into neighboring countries is given as "Anfal"; an "Anfal" oilfield is inaugurated and a special "Anfal Section" of the Ba'ath Arab Socialist Party created in commemoration of the event; one of the government contractors hired to work on the drainage of Iraq's southern marshes is the "Anfal Company." It is evident from the documents, and from the supporting testimony of those who survived Anfal, that the resources of the Iraqi state were deployed and coordinated on a massive level to assure the success of the operation.—Page 51

It is extremely difficult to square these misrepresentations as being consistent with the conduct expected of good faith contributors to our encyclopedia.TheTimesAreAChanging (talk) 17:01, 31 July 2022 (UTC)