Talk:Antisemitism in the British Labour Party

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by ThinkingTwice (talk | contribs) at 15:27, 18 July 2019 (→‎Survey). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.



Jeremy Corbyn vs. the Labour Party

Much of this article is about Jeremy Corbyn. Even though he is the leader, it seems unfair to tar the whole organisation with the actions of one person, especially in this level of detail. This material is covered on his own lengthy page. He should be mentioned here but shall we remove the detailed material about Corbyn from this page and simply reference him in relation to this? Jontel (talk)

i have long argued that this article focuses too much on one man, and a narrow slice of time.Slatersteven (talk) 17:04, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that it focuses too much on the post-2015 period and has too little on the history, and perhaps that too much of the post-2015 period focuses on Corbyn. But I would proceed by expanding the pre-2015 material and be very careful about what is stripped out as it is likely to face disagreement. I'd bring examples here first to get consensus before removing. BobFromBrockley (talk) 14:59, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The article creator's original version of the article very much concentrated on Jeremy Corbyn's leadership of the Labour Party (note the very first sentence, which refers to the current controversy and cites a Vox article recounting its first two years). Because the article title was such a general one, other material has been tacked on, with an unbalancing result. It would have been better if a more specific title had been chosen in the first place. The article creator (who has since been banned) left a revealing comment on the talkpage: "I'm going to be working on a background section, how the party has become antisemitic and why." That displays a probably ahistorical belief that the party members are more antisemitic than they've ever been, explaining why, despite the general title, he or she concentrated on the period of Corbyn's leadership.     ←   ZScarpia   11:31, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. An objective of this campaign by some does appear to me to be to depose Corbyn, and this is not always explicit. Further to BobFromBrockley's comment, I propose that the material about Corbyn and alleged antisemitism prior to his election as leader i.e. 6.1, which is more about him than the Labour Party, is replaced by the statement that: 'Corbyn has been challenged on antisemitism in relation to associations and comments prior to his election as leader', with a link to his profile, which contains a significant section covering all the allegations. This would enable those interested to explore his past actions and views, while retaining the focus of the article on the organization, which is its subject. Jontel (talk) 12:02, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The article focuses on the Corbyn content because that is what the sources focus on. We shouldn't remove relevant content because of perceived injustices in the sources. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 13:31, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks; perhaps I can be clearer to save time/ effort. I am not suggesting that the possible motives of the sources is a reason for the material on Corbyn's past actions and views prior to his becoming leader to be simply referenced via a link in this article to his page rather than being detailed at length. Nor, though, do I think that such material should be included in this article simply because it has been published. Rather, it is a question of its relevance to the subject of this article, as you suggest. Corbyn's actions and views as leader are unquestionably relevant to an article on the Labour Party. However, I suggest that his actions and views as a mere one of hundreds of backbenchers are much less so and need only be referred to with a link to his page, where they are covered, rather than detailed here. His impact as leader can be judged on the basis of his behaviour in that role, rather than his very long past history. Removing the duplication between the two articles will also help with the length of this one. Jontel (talk) 13:53, 20 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps it would be better to have two articles, a "UK Labour Party antisemitism controversy" one, which the current article was originally clearly supposed to be about, and an "Antisemitism in the UK Labour Party" one, which covers the history of antisemitism in the Labour Party?     ←   ZScarpia   13:45, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Jontel, if Corbyn had stayed as a simple backbencher then they would not be notable enough to take up a significant chunk of the article. However, once he was elected leader, then his historical actions become more notable and relevant to this article. ZScarpia, while Corbyn's previous actions do take up a significant part of the article, they don't seem to take up enough to justify a whole new article. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 14:01, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I did not suggest "a whole new article" on Corbyn and his 'antisemitism'/ sympathy for Palestine; this is already covered on his Wikipedia page. On Zscarpia's idea, I'm happy to hear more, but don't see how it would look at yet. Jontel (talk) 16:10, 21 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I have clarified my previous reply. Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 15:53, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Let me clarify the idea I was floating. The current article started off as and is mainly about the current controversy, with historical detail added on. What I was envisaging is that the current article is retitled and the historical detail is moved to a new one. Therefore, there would be an article about the current controversy, which would be the current article modified, and another article which carries a long-term historical overview. The problem I was addressing was a slightly different one than whether the article concentrates too much on Jeremy Corbyn personally, but is related, that is, does the article concentrate too much on the current period.     ←   ZScarpia   09:36, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for explaining further. Yes, the article brings together three very distinct periods. A century ago, Britain ruled a quarter of the world and most European societies looked down on other cultures, religions and races, even after the removal of legal restrictions. Labour leaders were not immune to such ideas and had particular concerns about the impact of large scale immigration and the emerging power of finance capital, both of which had a strong Jewish component, even if such leaders were more sympathetic to Jews in general than society as a whole. Then there is the growing concern from the 1970s onwards about Israel/ Palestine, particularly as Britain played a prominent role in creating the situation. Finally, there is Corbyn's election as Labour party leader in 2015, leading to common cause amongst a right wing media, centrist Labour MPs and advocates of Israel's expansion that a (pro Palestinian) Corbyn government must be prevented, leading to a three year long media campaign to prevent it. I can certainly see these working better as separate articles. Jontel (talk) 11:15, 23 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Icewhiz's comment below is illuminating with regard to the purpose of this article. "This article is a child article of Corbyn."     ←   ZScarpia   08:25, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This article primarily covers the 2015-2019 political crisis/scandal - which heavily involved Corbyn (though not just Corbyn). I'd support re-titling it. However if we are to turn this into an historic overview article on the issue (and trim the present-day political scandal) - then the present day political scandal will get its own article - which will leave us with two articles to wrangle over instead of one. Icewhiz (talk) 08:37, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
That reads as though it's in accord with the first three comments I wrote in this section. Hopefully a separate historical overview article would be reasonably tranquil.     ←   ZScarpia   09:36, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]
ZScarpia’s suggestion seems sensible to me. A historical overview article, where the post-2015 period would just be summarised in a paragraph. (The title of that article would be the title of the current article.) And an article on the controversy or affair which has unfolded since 2015, where much of the material in the current article would go.

Jeremy Corbyn vs. the Labour Party

I would like to pursue the point about whether the amount of material on Corbyn pre his leadership is WP:UNDUE in this article. I think there is some relevance but that the length is excessive, particularly as it is covered on his profile where it is available for reference. Moreover, reducing this section will contribute to reducing the overall length of the article, which I anticipate continuing to grow. Can I suggest we have a vote on this to clear it up by everyone putting these three options in order of preference with regard to section 6.1. in this article i.e. Events involving Jeremy Corbyn from previous years?

A Replace the section in this article with a sentence and link to the relevant section in his profile

B Replace the section in this article with the relevant section in his profile, resulting in the two articles having the same text regarding the period before he became leader. The section in his profile is shorter and was arrived at after some discussion and amendment amongst the editors involved.

C Leave section 6.1 unchanged. Jontel (talk) 15:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Survey

My vote would be: A, then B, then C. Thanks, Jontel (talk) 15:56, 6 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

My vote would be: A, then B, then C. Thanks,♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ ♥ Talk♥ 04:53, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A, then B, then C in order of preference. That aspect is WP:UNDUE in several respects - it's WP:RECENTISM, with extensive focus on a controversy whose long-term impact isn't yet proven and which logically would only be a small part of the historical topic at the moment. Additionally, given the way Corbyn's article has been trimmed down, the version here ends up feeling like a WP:POVFORK - it doesn't really make sense to devote so much text and space to something that isn't WP:DUE that much attention even on the primary article for the subject. Beyond that, the whole section has become a bloated mess of editors trying to argue back and forth by dropping in every news story, reaction, counter-reaction, and so on; this is not a helpful or useful way to present the material to the reader. We're an encyclopedia, not a debate club; we provide a broad summary and overview, not an argument dozens of points in length trying to persuade the reader. --Aquillion (talk) 04:36, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • C. Lets not kid ourselves - this a 2015-2019 political scandal, that mainly involves Jeremy Corbyn. This article is a child article of Corbyn, and is clearly more detailed that what is possible in Corbyn. Should this article be trimmed in regards to this highly covered and clearly notable scandal, per WP:PRESERVE and WP:SPLIT we would create Antisemitism scandals involving Jeremy Corbyn and/or 2015-present UK Labour party antisemitism scandal and/or place this material in Corbyn's article. I think we should stick to one article - this one - as opposed to creating a child article for Corbyn specifically (which would clearly pass WP:N). Icewhiz (talk) 06:26, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

A At the end of the day this is either about Corbyn or the labour party.Slatersteven (talk) 10:21, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

C of the options given C is the one I agree with. However if it's changed at all I would suggest instead of just being group under 6.1 the article should be moved into chronological order based on the date of the event. After all this is about Antisemitism in the Labour Party and these events are all valid for being on this page. If you think this page is to focused on Corbyn then instead of removing valid information with reliable sources, I suggest you add the missing information demonstrating that he is not the only person who has a history of it. If the page was in chronological order it would be simpler for people to slot in that additional information about other antisemitic Labour members/events. The information shouldn't just be removed as there is a lot there which is not included on Corbyn's page. Let's face it this crisis in Labour has come about due to Corbyn and his leadership, without him becoming leader with his history of supporting and turning a blind eye to anti-Jewish rhetoric would Labour be in the trouble it is? The crisis come out into the open when people started for the first time looking at the new leader and his background, before as a backbencher he was politically obscure and not given the political scrutiny or held to account for his actions. ThinkingTwice contribs | talk 15:27, 18 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion

While he is the party leader, his powers are constrained by those of the National Executive Committee, a formally independent disciplinary secretariat and, for much of this period, hostile staff and parliamentarians, so issues relating to the party are not entirely under his control. Nor is it suggested that he was highly influential when he was a backbencher.

So, I think there is a logic in separating his two roles, making this article about the Labour Party, including material relating to Corbyn's role as party leader in the handling of allegations of antisemitism in the Labour Party, while putting material relating to his backbencher Palestinian solidarity activity in his profile, while linking the two articles. Jontel (talk) 14:37, 11 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Much too long

90% of this should be cut, especially excessive quotes, e.g. Finkelstein asked "What are they doing? Don't they have any respect for the dead? ... All these desiccated Labour apparatchiks, dragging... Zezen (talk) 12:58, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree we cover too much triviality, the problem is no one agrees as to what it is. If "talking to the wrong Jews" can bed seen as antisemitism then Jews saying "this is cobblers" is as relevant. I have long argued we should only have material on major party figures actually being found to have engaged in antisemitism, not every overblown incident (which is what most of this article consists of).Slatersteven (talk) 13:01, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that it is so long because they are mainly quotes. If they were accurately paraphrased, the section would be shorter, while retaining the sense. Jontel (talk) 13:20, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Are we talking about the article, or a section?Slatersteven (talk) 13:23, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]
100% agree there are too many quotes that could easily be just referenced or paraphrased. This largely relates to the op ed dispute elsewhere on this page as that is where the excessive fat is. I don't agree, though, that we cover "every overblown incident" (we know that literally hundreds, possibly thousands, of complaints have been made about party figures, and we only cover those that got attention in RSs). BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:02, 5 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]
This article is not just too long, but also there is far too much trivia,or what seems like trivia to me. Quotes from party members should at least be confined ust to elected public representatives, and that's all. It is very hard for someone totally new to the subject like me to understand the issues on this basis of this article alone. It is rare to see such a confused and confusing Wikipedia entry Quotes can be useful if they highlight a key issue, but mostly they do not throw light on what the controversy is supposed to be. The quotes are in the references anyway for readers that have more interest """" — Preceding unsigned comment added by TGcoa (talk • contribs) 20:27, 27 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Incredibly long and boring - how many words are there about a single facebook message about a mural. Needs serious pruning.♥ L'Origine du monde ♥ ♥ Talk♥ 04:56, 10 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Category

This article should be put into Category:Left-wing antisemitism. Zerach (talk) 18:55, 28 May 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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