Talk:Aquatic ape hypothesis: Difference between revisions
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Let's discuss what to do with this text. I think the 2013 conference should probably be mentioned in the article, but it was of course organized by AAH proponents and did not have any significant participation by mainstream paleoanthropologists, and the 2011 book to my knowledge has only received one negative review by Langdon, who was also the only opponent of the theory present at the conference. We would need some third party coverage of the conference to assess its general reception, and we would also need to include Langdon's counter arguments. I am unsure about what relevance Attenborough's support has, if we start including namedropping then to avoid giving it undue prominence we would probably need a list of similar people opposing the theory - which would of course be longer. [[User:Maunus|·maunus]] · [[User talk:Maunus|snunɐɯ·]] 19:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC) |
Let's discuss what to do with this text. I think the 2013 conference should probably be mentioned in the article, but it was of course organized by AAH proponents and did not have any significant participation by mainstream paleoanthropologists, and the 2011 book to my knowledge has only received one negative review by Langdon, who was also the only opponent of the theory present at the conference. We would need some third party coverage of the conference to assess its general reception, and we would also need to include Langdon's counter arguments. I am unsure about what relevance Attenborough's support has, if we start including namedropping then to avoid giving it undue prominence we would probably need a list of similar people opposing the theory - which would of course be longer. [[User:Maunus|·maunus]] · [[User talk:Maunus|snunɐɯ·]] 19:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC) |
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:Attenborough was pretty well dismissed. [http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sir-david-attenborough-aquatic-ape-savannah-466831], [http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/space-ape-parody-shows-why-aquatic-ape-theory-is-all-wet/], [http://www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2013/may/07/aquatic-apes-creationism-evolution] --[[User:NeilN|<b style="color:navy">Neil<span style="color:red">N</span></b>]] <sup>[[User talk:NeilN|<i style="color:blue">talk to me</i>]]</sup> 19:25, 16 May 2015 (UTC) |
:Attenborough was pretty well dismissed. [http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/sir-david-attenborough-aquatic-ape-savannah-466831], [http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/space-ape-parody-shows-why-aquatic-ape-theory-is-all-wet/], [http://www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2013/may/07/aquatic-apes-creationism-evolution] --[[User:NeilN|<b style="color:navy">Neil<span style="color:red">N</span></b>]] <sup>[[User talk:NeilN|<i style="color:blue">talk to me</i>]]</sup> 19:25, 16 May 2015 (UTC) |
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== Duplication == |
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I have uncited the word to word [https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Aquatic_ape_hypothesis&diff=662706088&oldid=662705902] duplication from BBC article.[http://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-20951232] Please research, there can be more. [[Special:Contributions/VandVictory|VandVictory]] ([[User talk:VandVictory|talk]]) 03:37, 17 May 2015 (UTC) |
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Let's have a little fun with the denier. Please explain again just how the below version is POV-pushing? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CEngelbrecht (talk • contribs) 19:43, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
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The aquatic ape hypothesis (AAH) or aquatic ape theory (AAT) is a hypothesis about human evolution which posits that the ancestors of modern humans spent a period of time adapting to a semiaquatic existence.[1][2] AAH emerged from the observation that some anatomical and physiological traits that set humans apart from other primates have parallels in aquatic mammals. The hypothesis was first proposed by German pathologist Max Westenhöfer in 1942, and then independently by English marine biologist Alister Hardy in 1960. After Hardy, the most prominent proponent was Welsh writer Elaine Morgan, who has written several books on the topic. AAH is not accepted among the mainstream explanations of human evolution. Scientific consensus states that humans first evolved during a period of rapid climate fluctuation between wet and dry, and that most of the adaptations that distinguish humans from the great apes are adaptations to a terrestrial, as opposed to an earlier, arboreal environment. Few paleoanthropologists have explicitly evaluated AAH in scientific journals, and those that have reviewed the hypothesis have been critical. An extensive criticism appeared in a peer reviewed paper by John H. Langdon in 1997.[3] Langdon states that the AAH is one of many hypotheses attempting to explain human evolution through a single causal mechanism, and that the evolutionary fossil record does not support such a proposal; that the hypothesis is internally inconsistent, has less explanatory power than its proponents claim, and that alternative terrestrial hypotheses are much better supported. AAH is popular among laypeople and has continued support by a minority of scholars. Langdon attributes this to the attraction of simplistic single-cause theories over the much more complex, but better supported models with multiple causality. The German pathologist Max Westenhöfer (1871–1957) can be said to have worded an early version of AAH, which he labeled "the aquatile man" (German: Aquatile Mensch), which he described in several publications during the 1930s and 1940's. Westenhöfer was partially influenced by contemporary German National Socialism and disputed Charles Darwin's theory on the kinship between modern man and the great apes. As part of a complex and unique presentation of human evolution, he argued that a number of traits in modern humans derived from a fully aquatic existence in the open seas, and that humans only in recent times returned to land. In 1942, he stated: "The postulation of an aquatic mode of life during an early stage of human evolution is a tenable hypothesis, for which further inquiry may produce additional supporting evidence."[4] Westenhöfer’s aquatic thesis suffered from a number of inconsistencies and contradictions, and consequently he abandoned the concept in his writings on human evolution around the end of the Second World War.[5] Independently and ignorant of Westenhöfer's writings, marine biologist Alister Hardy (1896-1985) had since 1930 also hypothesized, that humans may have had ancestors more aquatic than previously imagined, although his work conversely was rooted in the Darwin consensus. As a young academic with a hypothesis belonging to a topic outside his field, and because he was aware of its inherent controversy, Hardy delayed reporting his idea for some thirty years. After he had become a respected academic and knighted for contributions to marine biology, Hardy finally voiced his thoughts in a speech to the British Sub-Aqua Club in Brighton on 5 March 1960. Several national newspapers reported distorted versions of Hardy's ideas, which he countered by explaining them more fully in an article in New Scientist on 17 March 1960.[6] Hardy defined his idea:
The idea received some interest after the article was published,[8] but was generally ignored by the scientific community thereafter. In 1967, the hypothesis was briefly mentioned in The Naked Ape, a book by Desmond Morris (1928–) in which can be found the first use of the term "aquatic ape".[9] While doing research for her book "The Descent of Woman" published in 1972, a book inspired by reading Morris' The Naked Ape, TV-writer Elaine Morgan (1920-2013[10]) was struck by the potential explanatory power of Hardy's hypothesis. While elaborating on Hardy's suggestion, Morgan also sought to challenge what she considered a masculine domination of the debate on human evolution, and the satirical book became an international bestseller, making Morgan a popular figure in feminist movements and on various TV talkshows in, for example, the United States. Conversely, her scientific contributions, including her elaboration on Hardy's aquatic humans was effectively ignored by anthropology. Morgan has since been the force majeure behind the development of Hardy's original idea, which after a number of publications culminated in 1997 with the book "The Aquatic Ape Hypothesis", which, with its now more factual language and proper referencing, was aimed primarily at the academic community.[1][11] In 1987 a symposium was held in Valkenburg, the Netherlands, to debate the pros and cons of AAH. The proceedings of the symposium were published in 1991 with the title "Aquatic Ape: Fact or fiction?".[12] The chief editor summarized the results of the symposium as failing to support the idea that human ancestors were aquatic, but there is also some evidence that they may have swum and fed in inland lakes and rivers, with the result that modern humans can enjoy brief periods of time spent in the water.[13] Weaker versions of the hypothesis suggesting littoral feeding and wading rather than strong aquatic adaptation have since been proposed. These weaker versions of the hypothesis have not yet been scientifically explored. [14] The context of the initial presentations of AAH (a popular essay and a political text) diverted attention away from the possible scientific merits of the hypothesis. Most paleoanthropologists reject the AAH; [3][15][16][17] but it has never been seriously scrutinized and discussed within the field of paleoanthropology.[3] Modern humans, Homo sapiens, developed from earlier forms found as fossils at various locations around the world, seeing an early concentration in East Africa. Other remnants from early humans such as tools, foods, dwellings, etc., have also been detected. Combined, these finds present a partial image of the process, that developed the species Homo sapiens.[18] From the collective work of anthropology, and in later years also genetics, established consensus states, that humans belong in the biological tribe Hominini, this in the family of Hominidae (the great apes), this in the order of primates, this in the class of mammals. Humans are closely related to, in order of closest kinship, the great ape genera chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and further distant the family of gibbons. Hominini includes the subtribe Australopithecina with the genera Sahelanthropus, Orrorin, Ardipithecus, Paranthropus, Australopithecines; and the subtribe Hominina, encompassing the genus Homo, some of its species being Homo habilis, Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, the Neanderthals and modern humans, the latter being the only extant species.[19] There is still some uncertainty about the interrelation between the known Hominin fossils; new finds can still drastically rewrite the human family tree, most recently with Sahelanthropus. Contemporary anthropology estimates, that the direct ancestors of modern humans split from a common ancestor to chimpanzees somewhere between 4 and 8 million years ago in Africa; the fossil ape Sahelanthropus tchadensis which lived some 7 million years ago in Chad is considered the earliest possible homininin.[20] Since the breakthrough of Darwin and Wallace's theory of evolution in the 19th century, it has been heavily debated why humans have features that distinguish them from their nearest evolutionary relatives; most notably by being near-furless, employing upright bipedal stance on their hind limbs, and having the perhaps most complex brain in the animal kingdom. A wide range of difficult to corroborate hypotheses have been presented as to the evolutionary background of the unique features of modern humans; for human bipedalism e.g. altered carrying behavior, improved energy efficiency, improved thermal regulation, altered social behavior and increased dominance behavior.[21] The human split from the lineage of the chimpanzees is linked to the geological formation of the East African mountain range Great Rift Valley that extends from Djibouti to Mozambique. In this region are found many of the key fossils of the earliest hominins, leaving it to be considered the cradle of humanity. The most widely considered hypothesis is that woodland dwelling, brachiating hominoids, specifically on the eastern side of the mountain range, gradually lost their habitat to more open areas, for instance grasslands, and that this and other changes forced these hominoids to develop the shapes, that gradually resulted in modern humans.[22] In recent decades, the traditional image of human origin having taken place in grasslands (e.g. the African savannah) has been challenged, since particularly the oldest homininin fossils are found alongside fossilized fauna and flora from traditional woodland habitats, rather than from grasslands, e.g. the some 4.4 million year old fossil Ardi, an Ardipithecus ramidus.[23] AAH suggests that many features that distinguish humans from their nearest evolutionary relatives emerged because the ancestors of humans underwent a period when they were adapting to an aquatic or semi-aquatic way of life, but returned to terrestrial life before having become fully adapted to the aquatic environment. Variations within the hypothesis suggests these protohumans to have spent time either wading, swimming or diving on the shores of fresh, brackish or saline waters and feeding on littoral resources.[24] Key arguments have been developed and presented by Elaine Morgan since 1972, these based on the original suggestion of Alister Hardy. In later years, other contributors have further developed the aquatic ideas, some of which differ heavily from the original "aquatic ape" of Hardy et Morgan. The term waterside hypotheses of human evolution has been coined by AAH-proponent Algis Kuliukas to collectively represent this diversity, of which AAH is only one such hypothesis. Most traits perceived as aquatic are physiological and biochemical, while few are behavioral (ethological). The time frame for the origin og possible termination of such an aquatic existence also differs between proponents, or though the same time frame as anthropological consensus is generally followed. In most cases, this aquaticism is perceived as having been instigated by selective pressure around the split of the last common ancestor between humans and chimpanzees.[25] The Belgian physician Marc Verhaegen has presented a unique variation of AAH, where semiaquatic traits is argued to be evident even before the split between humans and chimpanzees, this in Dryopithecus-like apes between 15 to 7 million years ago, which at that time had migrated from rain forests in Africa to then tropical rainforests around the Tethys Sea, the Mediterranean and across Southern Asia. At the end of this warmer period, the ancestors of orangutans is said to have migrated into South East Asia, while the ancestors of humans, chimps and gorillas migrated back into Africa, evolving into their present forms; chimps and gorillas becoming more land locked, while humans developed aquatic traits. Verhaegen also argues, that human aquaticism reached its peak with Homo erectus some 2-1 million years ago, this observed by e.g. thickened erectus bones, labeled pachyosteosclerosis, which is argued as having convergence during e.g. whale evolution from land to aquatic forms. Verhaegen further argues, that human aquaticism originally developed in tropical mangrove or seasonally flooded woodland, this based on the flora and fauna found alongside the earliest hominin fossils, a phenomenon he labels aquarborealism.[26] The argued degree of human aquaticism varies amongst proponents, however the vast majority argues a semiaquatic ape on par with e.g. hippos and sea otters. Very few have argued a fully aquatic stage on par with e.g. whales or pinnipeds, and this is rejected by the majority, including Morgan. Some pseudoscientific and cryptozoologic speculations have made use of parts of the AAH argumentation, e.g. the claimed existence of mermaids,[27][28] but this is also rejected by proponents, including Morgan.[29] While most proto-human fossil sites are associated with wet conditions upon the death of the hominins, this is not seen as unequivocal evidence for the AAH, since being buried in waterside sediment is one of the rare situations in which fossilization is likely to occur (labeled preservation bias); paleontologists are aware of this preservation bias and expect fossils to be located at such sediments.[15][30]
Rare presented AAH-arguments points to the human tendency to watery psychic tears, and also sweat to cool down, where Morgan has withdrawn previous arguments, seeing that horses is a rare mammal species to also sweat profusely.[74] It is occasionally argued, that humans compared to other apes have reduced olfaction, with claimed convergences observed in other aquatics, e.g. whales; that the protuding human nose would be adapted to keep splashes out of nasal cavities, arguing the semiaquatic proboscis monkey or semiaquatic tapirs as possible convergences; the tendency of partial to full baldness in men; the tendency for human obesity;[66] and that human kidneys are better suited for excretion of salt than other apes.[75] Such arguments are generally considered more speculative and is often heavily critized. The AAH has been criticized for containing multiple inconsistencies and lacking evidence from the fossil record to support its claims[3][30][76] (Morgan, for instance, failed to discuss any fossils found after 1960 and much of her analysis is by comparing soft tissues between humans and aquatic species).[3] It is also described as lacking parsimony, despite purporting to be a simple theory uniting many of the unique anatomical features of humans.[3] Anthropologist John D. Hawks expresses the view that rather than explaining human traits simply and parsimoniously, it actually requires two explanations for each trait - first that proximity to water drove human evolution enough to significantly change the human phenotype and second that there was significant evolutionary pressure beyond mere phylogenetic inertia to maintain these traits (which would not be adaptive on dry land) and points out that exaptation is not an adequate reply. Hawks concludes by saying:
Ellen White describes Morgan's work as failing to be empirical, not addressing evidence that contradicts the hypothesis, relying on comparative anatomy rather than selection pressure, not predicting any new evidence and failing to address its own shortcomings. White stated that while the hypothesis had the scientific characteristics of explanatory power and public debate, the only reason it has received any actual scholarly attention is due to its public appeal, ultimately concluding the AAH was unscientific.[78] Others have similarly noted the AAH "is more an exercise in comparative anatomy than a theory supported by data."[79] Though describing the hypothesis as plausible, Henry Gee went on to criticize it for being untestable, as most of the evolutionary adaptations described by Morgan would not have fossilized. Gee also stated that, while purely aquatic mammals such as whales show strong skeletal evidence of adaptation to water, humans and human fossils lack such adaptations (a comment made by others as well[30]); that there are many hypothetical and equally plausible scenarios explaining the unique characteristics of human adaptation without involving an aquatic phase of evolution; and that proponents are basing arguments about past adaptations on present physiology, when humans are not significantly aquatic.[80] There is ultimately only circumstantial evidence to suggest, and no solid evidence to support the AAH.[81][82] ScienceBlogs author Greg Laden has described the AAH as a "human evolution theory of everything" that attempts to explain all anatomical and physiological features of humans and is correct in some areas only by chance. Laden also states that the AAH was proposed when knowledge of human evolutionary history was unclear, while more recent research has found that many human traits have emerged at different times over millions of years, rather than simultaneously due to a single evolutionary pressure.[51] Evolutionary biologist Carsten Niemitz states that he believes the AAH as expressed by Morgan didn't fulfill the criteria of a theory or a hypothesis, merely "[listing] analogies of features of savannah type mammals on the one hand and of aquatic mammals and man on the other, asking the scientific community for explanations other than a common aquatic ancestor of extant man."[14] Marc Verhaegen has also challenged the AAH as expressed by Morgan, believing the ancestors of apes as well as humans may have had their evolutionary history influenced by exposure to flooded forest environments,[83] and that based on the hominin fossil record, regular part-time underwater foraging began in the Pleistocene rather than the early Pliocene as Morgan’s model proposes.[84] In 2012 Langdon reviewed an e-book published by Bentham Science Publishers collecting 50 years of theorizing about the AAH.[2] In his review,[85] Langdon noted the lack of a single "aquatic ape hypothesis", instead there are multiple hypotheses with a common theme of evolutionary pressure due to dependence on an aquatic habitat. While original versions thought to explain an apparently substantial gap between humans and closely related common ancestors, more recent variants of these hypotheses have had to adjust to the fact that the gap was more apparent than real and the significant commonalities found between humans and other African apes. Three main strands of thought now exist regarding the AAH, varying according to when the theorized aquatic phase occurred - from the Middle Miocene to approximately three million years ago (Hardy's original model, which was based on a large gap in the fossil record that has since been filled in), from the Early Miocene when ancestral hominids were thought to wade in costal swamps and from which Homo species were thought to split off and adapt to swimming and diving (associated with the work of Marc Verhaegen), and from 200,000 years ago when exploitation of costal resources led humans out of Africa and resulted in the evolution of modern humans (associated with the work of Algis Kuliukas). Langdon notes the strong associations of humans with water, as well as the adaptability of the species to incredibly diverse ecological niches (including costal and wetland regions), both within and across lifetimes. Whether these associations define humans as "semiaquatic" or not "represents a fundamental point of departure between anthropologists and the [Aquatic Hypothesis] community." Langdon notes the three lines of evidence cited to support the AAH (comparative anatomy between humans and other semiaquatic species; hypothetical situations in which evolutionary pressure might have produced convergent evolution between humans and semiaquatic species; the ability for humans to perform various activities in the water) and concludes about these lines of evidence,[85]
Langdon criticizes the alleged "parsimony" of the AAH irrelevant as it is used to generate hypotheses about human adaptation – but does not prove them. The AAH is, like many Just So Stories in anthropology, ignored less because of prejudice than because of a lack of empirical evidence to support it, because it engages only with supporting evidence in the relevant scientific literature while ignoring the larger body of unsupporting evidence, and because its hypotheses are portrayed as "compatible with" more accepted hypotheses and thus unable to distinguish between or provide explicit evidence for the AAH. Langdon concludes his review:[85]
The authors of the volume published a reply.[86] The AAH has received little serious attention or acceptance from mainstream paleoanthropologists,[15][17][87][88] has been met with significant skepticism[88][89] and is not considered a strong scientific hypothesis.[15][79] The AAH does not appear to have passed the peer review process, and despite Morgan being praised by various scholars, none of her work has appeared in any academic journals of anthropology or related disciplines.[78] The AAH is thought by some anthropologists to be accepted readily by popular audiences, students and non-specialist scholars because of its simplicity.[3] In 1987 a symposium was held in Valkenburg, the Netherlands, titled "Aquatic Ape: Fact or fiction?", which published its proceedings in 1991.[12] A review of Morgan's book The Scars of Evolution stated that it did not address the central questions of anthropology – how the human and chimpanzee gene lines diverged – which was why it was ignored by the scholarly community. The review also stated that Morgan ignored the fossil record and skirted the absence of evidence that australopithecine underwent any adaptations to water, making the hypothesis impossible to validate from fossils.[76] Morgan has claimed the AAH was rejected for a variety of reasons unrelated to its explanatory power: old academics were protecting their careers, sexism on the part of male researchers, and her status as a non-academic intruding on academic debates. Despite modifications to the hypothesis and occasional forays into scientific conferences, the AAH has neither been accepted as a mainstream theory nor managed to venture a genuine challenge to orthodox theories of human evolution.[90] Morgan's critics have claimed that the appeal of AAH can be explained in several ways:[3]
John D. Hawks, along with PZ Myers and fellow ScienceBlogs paleontologist Greg Laden recommend the website "Aquatic Ape Theory: Sink or Swim?" by Jim Moore as a resource on the topic.[51][91] Conversely, Elaine Morgan and Algis Kuliukas have critisized Jim Moore for heavily distorting in particular Morgan's arguments, this with very little use of references.[92][93] Anthropologist Colin Groves has stated that Morgan's theories are sophisticated enough that they should be taken seriously as a possible explanation for hominin divergence[94] and Carsten Niemitz has found more recent, weaker versions of the hypothesis more acceptable, approaching some of his own theories on human evolution.[14] In a 2012 paper, anthropologist Philip Tobias noted that rejection of the AAH led to stigmatization of a spectrum of topics related to the evolution of humans and their interaction with water. The result of this bias, in his and co-authors' opinions, was an incomplete reconstruction of human evolution within varied landscapes.[95]
{{Link FA|hu}} |
References
signing (with falsified date to match original end of discussion) for archiver. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:06, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
(cont.)
Suggestion - new subsection - anthropological consensus on human evolution
I'm still trying to do something about this hopeless, negatively biased article. I propose to lead the section about the actual hypothesis/ses by summarizing the contemporary consensus on human evolution, as expressed by the scientific field of anthropology. This is to illustrate the background for Elaine Morgan's AAH, since she based her work on what she perceived as shortcomings to parts of that consensus, straw man arguments and whatnot. Whether we then further detail her challenging of this consensus in the following sections is for a different discussion. If you skeptics really desire an optimal, non-POV article detailing what the hell all this boohah is about, let's start with this, since it should contain the fewest controversies (unless creationists are also hanging out in here, which is not bloody unlikely the way things have been going).
Suggestion
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Modern humans, Homo sapiens, developed from earlier forms found as fossils at various locations around the world, seeing an early concentration in East Africa. Other remnants from early humans such as tools, foods, dwellings, etc., have also been detected. Combined, these finds present a partial image of the process, that developed the species Homo sapiens.[1] From the collective work of anthropology, and in later years also genetics, established consensus states, that humans belong in the biological tribe Hominini, this in the family of Hominidae (the great apes), this in the order of primates, this in the class of mammals. Humans are closely related to, in order of closest kinship, the great ape genera chimpanzees, gorillas, orangutans, and further distant the family of gibbons. Hominini includes the subtribe Australopithecina with the genera Sahelanthropus, Orrorin, Ardipithecus, Paranthropus, Australopithecines; and the subtribe Hominina, encompassing the genus Homo, some of its species being Homo habilis, Homo ergaster, Homo erectus, the Neanderthals and modern humans, the latter being the only extant species.[2] There is still some uncertainty about the interrelation between the known Hominin fossils; new finds can still drastically rewrite the human family tree, most recently with Sahelanthropus. Contemporary anthropology estimates, that the direct ancestors of modern humans split from a common ancestor to chimpanzees somewhere between 4 and 8 million years ago in Africa; the fossil ape Sahelanthropus tchadensis which lived some 7 million years ago in Chad is considered the earliest possible homininin.[3] Since the breakthrough of Darwin and Wallace's theory of evolution in the 19th century, it has been debated why humans have features that distinguish them from their nearest evolutionary relatives; most notably by being near-furless, employing upright bipedal stance on their hind limbs, and having the perhaps most complex brain in the animal kingdom.[4] A wide range of difficult to corroborate hypotheses have been presented as to the evolutionary background of the unique features of modern humans; for human bipedalism e.g. altered carrying behavior, improved energy efficiency, improved thermal regulation, altered social behavior and increased dominance behavior.[5] The human split from the lineage of the chimpanzees is linked to the geological formation of the East African mountain range Great Rift Valley that extends from Djibouti to Mozambique. In this region are found many of the key fossils of the earliest hominins, leaving it to be considered the cradle of humanity. The most widely considered hypothesis is that woodland dwelling, brachiating hominoids, specifically on the eastern side of the mountain range, gradually lost their habitat to more open areas, for instance grasslands, and that this and other changes forced these hominoids to develop the shapes, that gradually resulted in modern humans.[6] In recent decades, the traditional image of human origin having taken place in grasslands (e.g. the African savannah) has been challenged, since particularly the oldest homininin fossils are found alongside fossilized fauna and flora from traditional woodland habitats, rather than from grasslands, e.g. the some 4.4 million year old fossil Ardi, an Ardipithecus ramidus.[7] References
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signing (with falsified date to match the original conclusion of this discussion) for archiver. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 06:05, 3 November 2013 (UTC)
New version - again!
Wow. Someone has really made a butchery of Wikipedia standards. At least a quarter of this article should be edited out to remove the obvious biases against this theory and get a NPOV. Elemming (talk) 15:42, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
Timeline of changes
The page could really do with a timeline of when each feature ascribed to the hypothesis (flooding of the Afar triangle, bipedalism, descending larynx, enlarging brain, reduction in hair, lowering density of the skeleton, etc) is known to have occurred, to see which - if any - occurred roughly at the same time as each other. If there's little or no overlap in the date ranges, then the hypothesis would seem severely weakened, though the "Waterside development" angle wouldn't be completely ruled out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by DewiMorgan (talk • contribs) 09:38, 23 December 2014 (UTC)
This article makes me so sad
It's so sad because there is no opportunity for AAT supporters to really explain the theory properly. Most of the scepticism comes from not fully understanding the idea, and there is no hope for us to change this article to what we really think when there are people out there wishing to paint us as Nazis. I couldn't even add a link to wiki's own page on the dive reflex. I can only imagine that this must have been the sorrow once faced by Darwin, when the theory of evolution was first met with so much resistance. It leaves a little glimmer of hope that as the outdated references quotes in the article start to gather dust along with their writers, more open-minded people willing to listen to reason rather than positing their opinions as fact will one day be listened to. Wikipaedia editors themselves clearly are interested in this topic - since they featured it on their home page no less than three times! Maybe this was the mistake, because it only drew the article to the attention of fierce opponents who so vehemently believe that this is a "Just So" story? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Aquapess (talk • contribs) 20:43, 15 May 2015
- Actually, from personal experience (I have a degree in anthropology), I think that most of the scepticism comes from understanding the 'theory' well enough - and from recognising just how vague and unfalsifiable it has been. Anyway, I suggest that you read up on Wikipedia policy before editing the article further - we need 'sources for claims regarding scientific acceptance of the hypothesis, not just vague assertions, and endorsements from TV broadcasters... AndyTheGrump (talk) 22:08, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- Keep your chin up! Darwinism was not accepted over-night. There appears to be more sense in the AAT origins, than the sort-cut hypothesis that our ancestors went from swinging in trees to the prairies (and then, eons later, take up a sedentary life style so they could edit Wikipedia and face book etc., all day). One only has to watch little kids on the beach. The first time a wave throws them bottom-over-elbow they may well cry – but after a time, they can't wait to get into the water again. It is as if being at home on a sea-edge environment is hard-wired into their genes. Unfortunately, the rise in sea level since these times means that evidence of these coastal communities may never be found. Keep plugging away until the old hypothesis fade away.--Aspro (talk) 22:55, 15 May 2015 (UTC)
- One also only has to watch a child with a skateboard. The first time they try it they go base over apex, and run off to mummy/daddy in tears. Within a few days though, they are whizzing around without a care in the world. Evidently, our ancestors once had wheels, and the ability to make use of them is still in our genes. Sadly, the process of erosion/sea level rise/trampling by herds of wildebeest has removed all traces of our ancestral skateboard park hunting grounds... 00:24, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Good reply.. but knock the sarcasm off. Look at the difference between a skate-board park and a sea shore. To-day skateboarders (miles form the coast) have all their food provided by their parents. Compare them to kids on the sea shore. On the sea shore, they soon become interested in things like cockles, mussels, laver,whelks, crabs, etc. Those, they discover are food (unless perhaps one lives in a westernized country like the US, were people won't eat anything unless it has been prepared and cooked for them by others). Don't you think (or see) that skate-board parks are a modern substitute for the thrill of being in the sea? If you don't mind me saying so: Don't you think you have got the cart before the horse, based on autocentric and limited experience and not the bigger picture? The higher availability of protein (from the shores) allowed our guts to shrink, and our craniums to expand – until we became the modern homo sapiens.--Aspro (talk) 01:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- "Don't you think (or see) that skate-board parks are a modern substitute for the thrill of being in the sea?" No. I am a rational human being (with a large and well-fed cranium). I have better things to think about. Like Wikipedia policy, and its applicability to article talk pages. And in particular, policy on not using article talk pages as a forum for facile debates with people who think that science consists of making complete bollocks up, and then expecting other people to swallow it whole. 01:34, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Good reply.. but knock the sarcasm off. Look at the difference between a skate-board park and a sea shore. To-day skateboarders (miles form the coast) have all their food provided by their parents. Compare them to kids on the sea shore. On the sea shore, they soon become interested in things like cockles, mussels, laver,whelks, crabs, etc. Those, they discover are food (unless perhaps one lives in a westernized country like the US, were people won't eat anything unless it has been prepared and cooked for them by others). Don't you think (or see) that skate-board parks are a modern substitute for the thrill of being in the sea? If you don't mind me saying so: Don't you think you have got the cart before the horse, based on autocentric and limited experience and not the bigger picture? The higher availability of protein (from the shores) allowed our guts to shrink, and our craniums to expand – until we became the modern homo sapiens.--Aspro (talk) 01:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- I have reverted your changes as you were clearly pushing a view. For example, you used a Daily Mail article (hardly a sterling source) to highlight support for the theory but failed to include any criticism mentioned in the same article. Why? Cherry picking material is not acceptable. --NeilN talk to me 14:04, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
A wiki page about the Aquatic Ape theory that doesn't allow any valid Aquatic Ape Theory information or valid references seems strange. What would be the harm in allowing a few real references and adding description of the opposing theories? After the theory is proven fact, then more rigorous requirements could be used before allowing editing.
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My following sample needs a complete rewrite, but something like:
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Aquatic Ape Theory pseudoscience: When Pan and Humans split, Pan stayed in the jungle but humans moved to edges of rivers, lakes, and oceans. Humans adapted to waterside life and many humans still live near bodies of water.
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Savanna Proven Fact science: When Pan and Humans split, Pan stayed in the jungle but humans moved to the savanna. Humans adapted to savanna life but later lost most of the adaptations so do not often live on savannas. Humans only recently moved to be near bodies of water in the last few years with no adaptations. Somitcw (talk) 19:10, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Posteditwar discussion
Aquapess is attempting to insert this:
“ | Despite this, the central idea of this theory has recently received more attention, and has even gained support from Sir David Attenborough at a recent conference at the Royal Marsden Hospital ("Human Evolution Past, Present and Future - Anthropological, Medical and Nutritional Considerations", 2013).[1][2] | ” |
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Let's discuss what to do with this text. I think the 2013 conference should probably be mentioned in the article, but it was of course organized by AAH proponents and did not have any significant participation by mainstream paleoanthropologists, and the 2011 book to my knowledge has only received one negative review by Langdon, who was also the only opponent of the theory present at the conference. We would need some third party coverage of the conference to assess its general reception, and we would also need to include Langdon's counter arguments. I am unsure about what relevance Attenborough's support has, if we start including namedropping then to avoid giving it undue prominence we would probably need a list of similar people opposing the theory - which would of course be longer. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 19:02, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
- Attenborough was pretty well dismissed. [2], [3], [4] --NeilN talk to me 19:25, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
Duplication
I have uncited the word to word [5] duplication from BBC article.[6] Please research, there can be more. VandVictory (talk) 03:37, 17 May 2015 (UTC)
- ^ Williams, Amanda (28 April 2013). "Early human ancestors were 'aquatic apes': Living in water helped us evolve big brains and walk upright, scientists say". The Daily Mail. Retrieved 16 May 2015.
- ^ Mee, Benjamin (08 May 2013). "Did humans come from the seas instead of the trees? Much-derided theory of evolution about aquatic apes is debated in London". The Independent. Retrieved 16 May 2015.
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