Talk:Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions

"All Arab lands"

The Goals of the campaign section starts with "Ending its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands". What is the definition of "all Arab lands"? Are Jerusalem, Tel Aviv, Haifa and Eilat part of the "Arab lands"? If not, why not? According to BDS founder Omar Barghouti, all of Israel must be dismantled. Why is this not mentioned anywhere in the article? Is it not relevant information? I would think the (main) goal of the campaign should be mentioned at least somewhere, preferably in the lede.

VwM.Mwv (talk) 09:01, 9 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 05 February 2019

Propose that the category "Antisemitism" be added to the article. Proposing or advocating negative treatment of the only openly Jewish state on the globe, while not proposing the same on any other country, is, by definition, anti-Semitism. The article states very clearly that not only do the progressive organizations the ADL and Wiesenthal center classify it as anti-Semitism, but numerous public figures on both the left, right, and center. Including a category in an article does not necessarily mean that it is definitive, but people looking for (arguably) examples of anti-Semitism by perusing categories should be able to see this article listed in that category. AppliedCharisma (talk) 20:23, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

 Partly done: I added Category:Antisemitic boycotts, which is more specific. DannyS712 (talk) 20:44, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

 Undone: This request has been undone. by User:RolandR. DannyS712 (talk) 01:00, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

The problem with the category "Antisemtic boycotts" is that the initiative is more than just a boycott as it also involves sanctions, i.e., trying to actually punish the Jewish state by means other than boycotts. So, the generic AntiSemitism category probably fits best. Should we have a straight-up poll to decide? AppliedCharisma (talk) 13:03, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Poll

I noticed from my edit request above that there is at least one editor who is allowed to edit this article who agree with adding the "AntiSemitism" category. However, the addition of the category was revert-warred by another editor. So, I suspect that the best way to settle this is by a poll to determine consensus. Thus:

Should the "Category: AntiSemitism" be added to this article?

• Yes. Add the category per my rationale above. Also, it appears that several of the organizations most active in the BDS movement are openly anti-Semitic. AppliedCharisma (talk) 13:07, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Your second sentence is a claim that I have not heard before. Can you provide sources? Also I notice you opened this RFC with your 10th edit since opening your account - have you had a different username previously? Onceinawhile (talk) 00:23, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

• Yes. Clearly treated as such by many authorities on antisemitism. Icewhiz (talk) 13:09, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
• Yes Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:42, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
• Yes. BDS is often accused of antisemitism (it's even mentioned in the lead), so the category is relevant. “WarKosign” 14:56, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
• No At the very least, for this category to be applicable, one would expect a significant set of facts that demonstrate their antisemitic activity or rhetoric. Mere accusations are not enough, as accusations of antisemitism are often political. This article does not provide a single instance of hatred towards Jews by the BDS movement, neither by statement nor by action. Furthermore, BDS supporters consistently deny that the movement is antisemitic. This also doesn't sit well with the fact that BDS supporters include Jews and even Israeli Jews. To apply this category label is to accept it as fact solely based on the views of BDS critics.--Exjerusalemite (talk) 16:37, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
• Yes. BDS has been proven time and time again to be an antisemitic posture. Even those who deny this fact admit that antisemitism is a common theme in commentary on the topic. --GHcool (talk) 20:01, 6 February 2019 (UTC)
• No The fact that many Zionists like to treat any criticism of Zionism as antisemitism doesn't make it so. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:44, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
• Absolutely not. Categories must not be used to express opinions in Wikipedia's voice. Zero^talk 07:23, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
• No The assertion that BDS is antisemitic is an opinion, not a fact. There are many reliable sources for the argument that it is not antisemitic, including from Jews and from Israeli citizens. The claim should be included in the article, with both views fairly and neutrally summarised. But our article should not take a position on this debate by including a pejorative label on the Categories. RolandR (talk) 10:34, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
• No per Exjerusalemite. Number 57 15:06, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
• Yes ShimonChai (talk) 18:57, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
• No - not a part of the topic of anti-semtism. That some opponents wish to tar it as antisemitic does not make it so. We dont tar groups due to accusations made by their political enemies. nableezy - 19:30, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
• No per WP:CATDD “Don't add pages to non-neutral or unverifiable categories.” Our article states that “Critics have also argued that the BDS movement is antisemitic”, i.e. this claim is a particular POV held by critics, and is therefore non-neutral. Onceinawhile (talk) 00:15, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
• Yes. The BDS campaign targets the Jewish state therefore it is antisemitic. And this simple fact is not entirely reversed by the fact that some Jews support the BDS campaign—this merely shows that there is dissension amongst Jews. It would be surprising if there was not dissension within any group of people on any issue. Bus stop (talk) 14:31, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
• Yes. In some cases, something must unequivocally belong to the category to be included in the category. In a case like this, though, the very fact that there is substantial disagreement whether it *is* or *isn't* antisemitism means that it belongs here. StevenJ81 (talk) 15:02, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
• Yes' BDS campaign by its nature is Anti-Semitic as attested by numerous WP:RS [1],[2],[3],[4],[5] and many more --Shrike (talk) 17:28, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
• No per Exjerusalemite. I think the BDS movement has anti-semitic elements, and I can prove it, but that is my opinion. Others think Zionism is a colonialist movement and plenty of WP:RS support this claim, while plenty of WP:RS oppose this claim. Same goes with linking the BDS movement with anti-semitism.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 19:52, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
• Yes - this movement had clear signs of anti-Semitism that are supported by (and in) violent acts and statements that denies Jews' right to exit in their Ancestral Homeland despite their 2000+ years of hoping to be here once again.--Wolfman12405 (talk) 13:07, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
• No Per WP:CATV "Categorizations should generally be uncontroversial". Does anyone, on either side of this issue, seriously think it is uncontroversial to say that BDS is antisemitic? Can editors cite reliable sources that clearly consistently describe antisemitism as a defining feature of BDS as a whole? Nblund ^talk 23:17, 10 February 2019 (UTC)
• Yes. The STATED GOAL of the BDS is to dismantle the State of Israel. Unless they are anarchists who want to dismantle all states, not just the Jewish one (which they don't), they are anti-Semitic by definition.

VwM.Mwv (talk) 18:00, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Untrue - I have just read that source. Your claim is not in there. Please strike your false comment. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:18, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Can't say about the specific source, but the claim is true. [6] [7] “WarKosign” 07:32, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: I actually got "my claim" from Wikipedia (see Omar Barghouti, BDS co-founder, source no. 16). Also, I advise you to take a look at the sources kindly provided by WarKosign. VwM.Mwv (talk) 15:15, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks both. These articles all state support for a one-state solution, removing the racial component from the definition of the state. That is not the same as “dismantling”, rather it is “de-racializing”. Onceinawhile (talk) 16:11, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: I've actually encountered this talking point quite a lot with BDS activists/apologists. My usual response is: Do you also support a one-state solution for the United States and Russia? If not, why not? Is it because you wish to dismantle the Jewish state only? VwM.Mwv (talk) 16:20, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

The US and Russia are not currently occupying each other’s population, nor are there millions of refugees excluded by one country from returning to the other. That is “why not”.

Name me another country in the world where millions of people are subordinated to and controlled by people that have no form of accountability to them. Then we can have the conversation anout parallels.

Onceinawhile (talk) 16:32, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

That's easy: Poland. Do you also support a one-state solution for Germany and Poland, with unlimited immigration of German refugee descendants into Poland?

Edit: On second thought, that's actually a flawed analogy. Germany invaded Poland, but Israel didn't start the Arab–Israeli conflict. VwM.Mwv (talk) 16:35, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

The answer to your question is yes I do, it is called the European Union and that is exactly how it works. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Bullshit. Germans who wish to move to Poland must go though Polish immigration policies. That's not "unlimited". But you admittedly don't recognize the right of the Jewish state to have its own immigration policies. Therefore, you are anti-Semitic. End of discussion. VwM.Mwv (talk) 19:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile: - there are in fact hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Russian refugees (from the former Soviet Union) in the United States who left prior to 1991 and were stripped of their Soviet (Russian SFSR) citizenship and are unable to return to Russia. I'm not sure what this has to do with BDS being antisemitic (a position espoused by mainstream antisemitism scholars) - but your assertion of lack of "nor are there millions of refugees excluded by one country from returning to the other" - is actually false. Icewhiz (talk) 16:48, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

You are wrong, per Citizenship of Russia. They were stripped of their nationality because they took on another nationality, not the other way round. And should they wish to return, there is a mechanism available.

Either way, we are talking about the double standards test of antisemitism. The Israel/Palestine military occupation is the longest in history, and the Israel/Palestine refugee sitution is the longest unresolved refugee crisis in history. There are simply no precedents, so VwM.Mwv‘s double standard’s claim cannot hold. Onceinawhile (talk) 18:09, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

That article is wrong or does not the pre-1991 USSR. Several groups were persecuted in the USSR and were recognized as refugees outside of the USSR. Citizenship was stripped the moment got an emigration visa. Icewhiz (talk) 18:25, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

• No This isn't even a remotely uncontroversial label, so it's definitely not appropriate for a category. Parabolist (talk) 23:19, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

details about antisemitism

The article mentions accusations of antisemitism but doesn't provide any examples of antisemitic rhetoric or activity by the BDS movement. It only presents the view of its critics that interpret the movement as a manifestation of antisemitism. Is the association with antisemitism solely based on the critics' interpretation, or are there any instances of explicit antisemitism?--Exjerusalemite (talk) 16:42, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Berlin Intelligence Agency Declares BDS antisemitic

European parties urged to agree Israel boycott tactics are antisemitic

“I Love Adolf Hitler”: BDS at South African Universities

The Case Against BDS: Why Singling Out Israel for Boycott Is Anti-Semitic and Anti-Peace

Trudeau blasts BDS movement as anti-Semitic

Need more exapmples? “WarKosign” 19:48, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

If Exjerusalemite needs more examples, all he/she has to do is reread the Wikipedia article. The link between antisemitism and BDS is iron clad. --GHcool (talk) 20:07, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

In your mind, at least. — Malik Shabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 03:45, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

On the other hand, we should also take into account the view, for example, of Daniel Blatman, Professor of Holocaust and Genocide Studies at the Hebrew University, who writes "the boycott imposed on Jews by antisemitism and the boycott of Israel today have nothing in common. The historical boycott was an unrestrained attack on a persecuted minority fighting for its place in society, while the current ban is designed to assist in the liberation of a minority without rights, which has been under the yoke of a brutal occupation for 48 years... Anti-Semitism? Expressions reminiscent of what the Nazis said about the Jews? These exist only in the imagination of those who react hysterically".[8] And there are many more similar articles. We should mention the allegation of antisemitism, and its rebuttal; but we should not state in Wikipedia's voice that BDS is antisemitic. RolandR (talk) 11:09, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

WarKosign, almost all of those links are completely irrelevant to my question as they do not give any examples of targeting Jews by BDS. Your links included mostly accusations of antisemitism and interpretation of criticism of Israel (some of it by Jews) as criticism of Jews. The only one to mention antisemitic rhetoric is the South Africa article. Even there, two examples were not by BDS, and indeed one of them was condemned by BDS. As far as I can tell, only one incident from that article involving BDS qualifies: BDS members stormed a 2013 concert in South Africa featuring an Israeli saxophonist, and some of them chanted "shoot the Jew" in Zulu (this incident was initially defended by BDS South Africa cofounder but was later denounced by BDS South Africa). So you have one incident. Are there more?--Exjerusalemite (talk) 19:25, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Here is some hard data for you. “WarKosign” 11:08, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

If Exjerusalemite needs more examples, all he/she has to do is reread the Wikipedia article. The link between antisemitism and BDS is iron clad. --GHcool (talk) 19:41, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

WarKosign's "evidence" introduces BDS with "The BDS movement was established with the intention of economically, academically and culturally isolating the Jewish state in order to eliminate it." Any survey that starts by defining its terms with a lie should be discounted ab initio. Besides that, the report should be given as an exercise to beginning statistics classes as it is replete with newbie errors. The authors apparently never heard of factor analysis. But my professional expertise in that area doesn't count here; the bottom line is that categories are not a device for editors to express opinions on topics. Really, nothing else needs to be said. Zero^talk 11:49, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks WarKosign but that is not at all what I asked. I asked for instances of antisemitism, and you've giving me a study that claims that there is statistical correlation between BDS activity and antisemitic incidence (with the flaws pointed out by Zero above). Correlation between rape incidents and gender doesn't mean that men are rapists. Only persons who rape are rapists. So I'll try again -- can you provide instances of antisemitism by BDS? So far I've only seen one instances, surely it should be easy to find more, don't you think?--Exjerusalemite (talk) 13:04, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

The nature of BDS movement is antisemitic by singling out Israel a only Jewish state Harvard professor Pinker explained it best "[Are Israel’s] policies really so atrocious, so beyond the pale of acceptable behavior of nation-states, that they call for a unique symbolic statement that abrogates personal fairness and academic freedom? It helps to put the Israel-Palestine conflict in global and historical perspective—something that anthropologists, of all people, might be expected to do … Why no boycotts against academics from China, India, Russia, or Pakistan, to take a few examples, which have also been embroiled in occupations and violent conflicts, and which, unlike Israel, face no existential threat or enemies with genocidal statements in their charters? In a world of repressive governments and ongoing conflicts, isn’t there something unsavory about singling the citizens of one of these countries for unique vilification and punishment?"--Shrike (talk) 13:40, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Here you can find quite a few samples of antisemitic sayings by BDS activists and leaders. “WarKosign” 16:59, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

User:WarKosign I think further discussion is a unfruitful , the user was given numerous examples and explained why the movement is a Anti-Semitic.I don't think any further examples will persuade him. --Shrike (talk) 18:04, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Shrike, I am not asking to be persuaded, my opinion is irrelevant. The purpose of this section was not to explain to me why some people claim that the movement is antisemitic, I understand that perfectly well. Much of the article deals with that. The question I posed here, one that nobody seems to be able to address, is whether there are instances of explicit antisemitism by BDS. Not attacks against Israel that some people interpret as antisemitic. Not antisemitic attacks by critics of Israel who are not connected to BDS. Simply, instances of explicit antisemitism by BDS. I am not trying to have an argument. I am not defending or criticising anybody. I am just asking if the accusations of antisemitism are based on any explicit antisemitism, because all the article details (as do the mostly useless links given in this discussion) is expressions of hostility towards Israel, not Jews. It really wouldn't be hard to satisfy my question: all you have to do is give examples of BDS attacking (rhetorically or physically) Jews. Not Israelis, Jews.--Exjerusalemite (talk) 18:37, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Per our policies numerous WP:RS describe the movement as antisemitic nothing more than this is needed per our policy. --Shrike (talk) 19:20, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

These quotes show that many BDS activists support a one-sate rather than a two-state solution to the conflict. But not even one of them is antisemitic, ie directed against Jews as Jews. Unless, of course, you accept the initial proposition that anti-Zionism is equivalent to antisemitism, which is precisely the issue that is under discussion here. These quotes do not prove that proposition, and advancing them as proof is an example of circular reasoning. RolandR (talk) 17:27, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

That's right. WarKosign, not a single quote in the link you gave is directed against the Jews.--Exjerusalemite (talk) 17:40, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Many of these quotes deny that Jews exist as people (or have the right to exist), deny that Jews were oppressed in the Arab states and call for destruction (often violent) of the only Jewish state. The fact that these quote often deal with Jews (rather then, say, Israelis or Zionists) is a sure sign of antisemitism. Looks like you need to check what is and what isn't antisemitism. “WarKosign” 21:03, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Whether "Jews are a people" has been debated even among Jews for over a century so having a position one way or another is not antisemitism in itself. I am not looking for "signs" of antisemitism, I'm looking for actual antisemitism. You keep insisting on interpreting things but this interpretation is your opinion, it is not a fact.--Exjerusalemite (talk) 06:34, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Ok, I'll stop wasting time. No point bringing evidence if you're going to dismiss it anyway. Looks like you won't be satisfied by anything short of BDS leaders explicitly describing the organisation as antisemitic. “WarKosign” 10:19, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

I think it is unlikely the organization is going to issue a statement saying that their purpose is to oppose Jews. Bus stop (talk) 17:01, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

They have made countless statements saying that their purpose is not to oppose Jews, yes, I agree. My impression has been that their designation as antisemitic is based solely on their critics' interpretation of their hostility towards Israel as antisemitic, and I was trying to discern whether there are any explicit indications of antisemitism. The purpose of this was to improve the article, not to argue. So far this has not proven fruitful.--Exjerusalemite (talk) 22:57, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, I don't know, Exjerusalemite. I think there is good reason to suppose the BDS movement is antisemitic: "The Boycott, Divest and Sanctions campaign against Israel has been categorized as anti-Semitic by the Berlin State Office for the Protection of the Constitution." Bus stop (talk) 16:39, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Shrike, thanks for presenting the view of those who believe that BDS's hostility towards Israel should be regarded as antisemitism. Now, again, are there any examples of actual antisemitism? Not examples of other things that some people regard as antisemitism, but simply instances of plain, unambiguous antisemitism. Anything?--Exjerusalemite (talk) 15:18, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Exjerusalemite—I think that "plain, unambiguous antisemitism" would be a very rare thing. Bus stop (talk) 15:29, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

I agree, except when dealing with antisemites, where plain, unambiguous antisemitism is quite common.--104.218.140.34 (talk) 16:04, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

In no particular order:

• Example #1: The organizers of the week long Rototom Sunsplash music festival held in Spain in 2015, cancelled the scheduled appearance of Jewish American rapper Matisyahu after he refused to sign a statement supporting a Palestinian state. Matisyahu stated that it was "appalling and offensive" that he was singled out as the "one publicly Jewish-American artist".

BDS's statement makes it clear that the reason he was singled out is his continued support for Israel, its military and the settlers, not the fact that he is Jewish. It is you who is assuming that the reason he was targeted was his Jewishness. Did all Jewish participants in the festival required to sign such statements?--Exjerusalemite (talk) 20:18, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

• Example #2: The Australian attributes BDS supporters with antisemitic activity including the publication of material on the Internet that denies the Holocaust and promotes attacks against "Jews and Jew lovers."

Comments on a BDS Facebook page. Was unable to find the comments, who wrote them, or even a screenshot of the comments. Apparently, some Islamophobic comments were also added so I suppose BDS is also Islamophobic.--Exjerusalemite (talk) 20:18, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

• Example #3: BDS efforts have, at times, targeted Jewish individuals who have little or nothing to do with the Arab–Israeli conflict. --GHcool (talk) 19:11, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Can't access the article, only managed to get to the part discussing the Matisyahu incident in Spain. Any other incidents? Thanks.--Exjerusalemite (talk) 20:18, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Moving the goalpost. --GHcool (talk) 21:03, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

Same goalpost. Looking for targeting of Jews as Jews by BDS. Matisyahu was not targeted because he was Jewish but because his ardent support for Israel and her military. Comments on a Facebook page by unknown individuals are not representative of an organization that owns the page. I don't know what other antisemitic incidents were in that last article because I don't have access to it, so if you do, please illuminate us.--Exjerusalemite (talk) 06:34, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

We going to WP:FORUM territory. Please stop it. --Shrike (talk) 08:26, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, at least I got one incident out of it (the 2013 South Africa one). Not sure whether worth mentioning in the article. I'll keep looking.--Exjerusalemite (talk) 22:32, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Link is dead

The link Norman Finkelstein Throws Wrench In Anti-Israel Movement’s Claim To A Rights-Based Agenda] ADL, 21 juni 2013 is invalide

The correct one is: https://www.adl.org/blog/norman-finkelstein-throws-wrench-in-anti-israel-movements-claim-to-a-rights-based-agenda

Langerak100 (talk) 10:17, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks. Y --GHcool (talk) 19:03, 11 February 2019 (UTC)