Talk:Death of Hadis Najafi

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Keep and move to Death of Hadis Najafi

The event is notable but not the person involved. I propose keeping the article but moving it to an appropriate title.-- Ideophagous (talk) 19:57, 6 October 2022 (UTC)

TikTok

Please explain why her TikTok [1] https://www.tiktok.com/@hadisnajafi78 can't be added. 2601:C4:C300:A210:BC1F:E1B0:32AC:1885 (talk) 01:14, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Ethnicity

User:Savalanni I'm not saying that there is a dispute in regard to her ethnic background; in my view I fail to see how it is relevant to the article (most sources do not mention it for instance) and I also fail to see how the sources you've added support it. For the TRT source: TRT is not a reliable source (just read its Wikipedia article to see what I'm talking about) so cannot be used to support some of her videos being to Turkish music. We also cannot cite her TikTok account directly. A compromise could perhaps be to just not mention the nationality of the singers at all.

For her being Azerbaijani; the VoA source (1) just mentions the birthplace of her parents, not anyone's ethnic background. The Tabriz Turan source (2) also mentions birthplace, not ethnicity - I am also not sure it qualifies as a reliable source. The only source that actually calls her Azerbaijani is the Gunaz TV source (3), which I am also not sure is a reliable source. I would welcome other editors to weigh in on this as well. Beodizia (talk) 12:33, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

User:Beodizia you have written there is no dispute about Hadis Najfi's ethnicity being Azerbaijani; yes it is true, she is Azerbiajani without any doubt. You say but it is not relevant to mention this fact in Wikipedia article, now two questions: 1. Why you are the person who decides what is relevant and what is not relevant in Wikipedia? I say Wikipedia is a correct place to mention it. 2. Ethnicity af Mahsa Amini is revelant and is written in the Wikipedia article but ethnicity of Hadis Najafi is not? I can show thousands of Wikipedia articles in which the ethnicity of people are mentioned. Is it not a sign of anti-Azerbaijani or anti-Turkic thoughts to censor her real ethnic background? Hopefully not.

The fact that she singes Turkish is also clear: I have given TRT as source, you say it is not valid source. You can alternatively go directly to TikTok and Instagram of her and see and hear that she posted many Turkish videos. Why you do not accept the reality? Why you try to censor the reality? Is it not a sign of anti-Turkish thoughts? Hopefully not.

I shall not try to give other sources, because you shall not accept them, saying again they are not good sources, this one is not acceptable source, that one is a bad source, or this is not relevant, that one is not mentionable, ... .

Her mother published a video speaking in Azerbaijani to describe her daughter's death. Her sister gives interviews in Azerbaijani language to TV channels like AznewsTV channel, in her funeral you hear Azerbaijani Noha, many sources say her paranets are born in Irainian Azerbaijan, many sources say the family are ethnic Azerbaijani, she itself published many Turkish videos in Tiktok [2] and Instagram, and has written in Turkish in Instagram (main Instagram status in Turkish: Doldur şimdi yerimi başka ben varsa... [3]), ....

Hopefully Wikipedia Admins see my wrtings here and do something against this Anti-Turkic censoreship in Wikipedia Savalanni (talk) 13:10, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: It is a bit extreme to accuse me of anti-Turkish censorship, don't you think? I do not doubt that this woman was of Azerbaijani descent. The difference to Mahsa Amini is that there are plenty of reliable sources that state that she was Kurdish, this is not the case here (I would question the relevance of that too if the source material was more limited). TRT is not a valid source and as I mentioned, we cannot cite Instagram or TikTok directly either. It is not a refusal to accept reality or censorship, I am just asking if there are better sources that discuss ethnicity at all in this case. The information present on Wikipedia should be supported by reliable sources, otherwise anyone could just add whatever they wanted. Beodizia (talk) 13:15, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

you have written in edit summary to delete the mentioning of her Azerbaijani ethnicity: "Don't turn the murder of a young woman into a pointless dispute on ethnic origin" [4]. Please judg yourself. Savalanni (talk) 13:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think disputes concerning ethnicities are pointless and I feel that arguing about this is in poor taste; what matters in this case is that Najafi lived in Iran and was killed due to the suppression of women by the Iranian regime. You can spend all the time you want trying to attack my character but what matters for including ethnicity here is if it can be substantiated with a reliable source. Beodizia (talk) 13:42, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: Why her life's other details like the number of her sister and brothers, the details of her job , her studies, her dances, ... are relevant in the article but her ethnicity is not relevant? This is clearly a paradox with considering what you have written above. The motive is clear: avoid mentioning of her Azerbaijani background in Wikipedia, it does not matter how .Savalanni (talk) 13:47, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: The other life details are there because they could be substantiated with reliable sources. Most of the available sources talk about Najafi's personal life history yet do not mention any ethnicity so those details seem to be generally regarded to be more relevant, yes. I don't know why you think I have an anti-Azerbaijani or anti-Turkic agenda or why you would believe Wikipedia as a whole does. Beodizia (talk) 13:54, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: If you are right please give me the claimed "valid sources" about the number of sisters and brothers, her studies details, work place. I have given you valid sources about her ethnic background. Anti Turkic trends in Wikipedia is clear than: 2*2 = 4 Savalanni (talk) 13:59, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: The sources supporting that information are already in the article. I have brought up this at the admin noticeboard to fast-track a resolution since I am not really interested in having a discussion this militant. I find it absurd to take me asking for higher quality sources as evidence of anti-Turkic trends on Wikipedia. Beodizia (talk) 14:08, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: There is only one source about all of that daetails. You see you do not have "valid sources" about other details of her life, but you keep them and do not delete them. But I have many sources about her ethnic background but you delete them. This is exactly the paradox about which I am speaking. Savalanni (talk) 14:16, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: As I pointed out, only one of the sources you provided mention ethnicity - the others only mention the birthplace of her parents. I don't see why I have to keep explaining my position. Only Gunaz TV calls her Azerbaijani and I cannot verify whether that's a reliable source because I can find very little about it. The number of sources does not matter if none are reliable. I think Radio Zamaneh is a reliable enough source to support those personal details. Beodizia (talk) 14:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: who claims that Radio Zamaneh is valid source but Gunaz TV is not a valid source? I say both are valid. Savalanni (talk) 14:31, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Savalanni: As I said, I could track down very little on Gunaz TV so I could not verify its reliability. I also found it suspicious that out of three added sources, only one actually supported the statement and that there was very little mention of ethnicity in any of the other sources. If it is found through discussion with other editors or an admin that Gunaz TV indeed is reliable and that it is relevant to mention ethnicity in this article I will not object to including it. Beodizia (talk) 14:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beodizia: there are two topics here: 1. Ethnicity of Hadis Najafi being Azerbaijani (Turkic). 2. The fact that she had interest in Turkish songes besides pop music and Iranian in her TikTok and Instagram videos. In both cases there are many reasons and soureces to prove them. You delete this information from the article. I think there is one sensibility about what is related to "Turk". There are many similiar non-Turkic information based on similar sources and reasons in this and in many other articles in Wikipedia. You show never any sensibility against them. Why? Savalanni (talk) 20:39, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Savalanni, I encourage you to focus on the content, not editors, because this will help support a productive discussion about what to include in the article. Thank you, Beccaynr (talk) 20:53, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Gunaz TV is a not a reliable source. It's a TV channel pushing for succession of Azerbaijan from Iran. The name of the TV channel speaks for itself: Güney Azərbaycan ("Southern" Azerbaijan, as opposed to the "Northern Azerbaijan", i.e., the Republic of Azerbaijan)

I already warned you enwiki users at the AfD about the petty ethnic conflicts some people try to push both inside and outside Wikipedia. Please review them: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Hadis Najafi 4nn1l2 (talk) 20:34, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

This article is about an event (the death). It is not a biography, so extensive details of the deceased (including detailed ancestry) is irrelevant. WWGB (talk) 12:38, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@WWGB: why the number of her sister and brothers, the details of her job and workplace, what she has studied, to which music she has danced, ... are all relevant in the article but her ethnicity is not relevant? Why in the similiar article Death of Mahsa Amini and thousands other article the ethnicity is relevant but in Death of Hadis Najafi it is not? The answer is simple: because she was of Azerbaijani Turkic decent and this is considered to be a big problem in Wikipedia. Savalanni (talk) 13:32, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

You are familiar with Iran and you know very well the answer of these questions yourself. Mahsa Amini's Kurdish ethnicity is important because it adds to the fact how innocent/oppressed (مظلوم) she was. Just look at the intersectionality here: 1) She was a woman in a country accused of gender apartheid; 2) She was from a small town near the poor borderline regions (as opposed to Najafi who was from Karaj, the fourth biggest Iranian city just in the vicinity of Tehran in the center of Iran); 3) She was a Kurd, a stateless nation in the Middle East who have suffered terribly for hundreds of years; 4) She was a Sunni in Shia-dominated Iran; etc. None of these works for Turkic people in Iran who have ruled for centuries even in Iran in addition to many other places such as Anatolia and Central Asia. Azeris in Iran are rich and powerful enough and the intersectionality does not work for them. Nobody thinks they are repressed or innocent. They are part of the system themselves as the ethnicity of the supreme leader (Mashhad-born Azeri) proves it. 4nn1l2 (talk) 20:58, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

• Hi everyone, I restored what had been the status quo, before the disputed material was added, per WP:BLPRESTORE, in part because there are claims being made about her family, but also because Najafi has recently died and at least some of BLP policy applies to her as well. There are options for dispute resolution if this Talk page discussion does not help, e.g. questions about sources can be asked at the Reliable sources Noticeboard, and the BLP Noticeboard can address questions related to claims made about living people. I am not as familiar with the Neutral point of view Noticeboard, but it addresses NPOV policy, which includes what is WP:DUE weight in this article. Beccaynr (talk) 14:50, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

@Beccaynr: Thank you. I have asked about Gunaz TV at Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#Gunaz TV. Beodizia (talk) 14:55, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

That sounds like a good next step. Also, WP:BDP is a part of WP:BLP policy that potentially applies to Najafi as well. Beccaynr (talk) 15:20, 9 October 2022 (UTC)