Talk:Eritrea

Languages, cuisine, etc.

A newly-registered account has made a number of undiscussed, disruptive edits [1]. Except for one accurate update of the CIA factbook population figure, these include but are not limited to a link break of Tigray-Tigrinya people; replacement of the Saho women pic with one of Raishada (a small migrant community originally from the Hejaz); falsifying the GDP PPP figure; citing self-published websites and a wiki for languages; removing material on the commonality of Eritrean, Ethiopian and Somalian cuisines; removing a link-thru to the religion main page; removing the religion bar box; and removing mention of the last remaining native adherent of Judaism [2]. Middayexpress (talk) 16:09, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Languages, cuisine, religion, economy, pictures. And possible vandalism from user

Hi i am user Hiyob346,

I will go trough all of the recent contributions I have made to the Eritrea page, and I will also try to motivate and explain each one of them. I would also like to add that some of the sources that I have added are newer version of the old ones.

--Religion--

First source: By Pew Research Center (2009): http://www.pewforum.org/files/2009/10/Muslimpopulation.pdf Pew Research Center is one of the leading organizations in the world that collect data about religious groups and their populations around the world. The source by Pew Research Center has mapped all of the worlds Islam population country by country, this is one of the biggest studies that has been made about trying in trying to map the Islamic population of the world . The study clearly states that the Muslim population of Eritrea is 36,5% (2009). I am sure that some people are critical to this and questions this, but can you please provide newer and more reliable sources than this one?

Second source: By US Department of State (2011):http://www.webcitation.org/5ywEZKW1R This sources states that there is 50% Christians in Eritrea, 48% Muslims and other religious groups is at 2%. There was an old sources on the page by US Department of state from 2009 which I removed since this source is exactly the same source from US Department of State which i added, only a newer version. I also removed the table showing Christian and Muslim population since this included the old source from the 2007 I mentioned before by the US department of state.

--Languages--

First source: By the Australian Government (2006): http://www.immi.gov.au/living-in-australia/delivering-assistance/government-programs/settlement-planning/_pdf/community-profile-eritrea.pdf This study aims to give information about the Eritrean Community in and outside Eritrea. The paper clearly states that "Nine main languages are spoken in Eritrea with Tigrinya and Tigre being spoken by approximately 80 per cent of the population".

Second source: By Ethnomed organization (2009): http://ethnomed.org/culture/eritrean/eritrean-cultural-profile Ethnomed is an organization that contains and provides information about cultural beliefs, medical issues and related topics. Ethnomeds country profile about Eritrea states that the majority language in Eritrea is Tigrinya. On their webpage is states: "The traditional language for more than half the population of Eritrea, and now the official language of Eritrea, is Tigrinya". Secondly, Ethnomed has taken their information from http://www.ethnologue.com/country/ER . Ethnolouge is an organization that provides a comprehensive reference work cataloging all of the world’s known living languages ,Since 1951. On their Eritrea page it states that more than 2.500.000 are Tigrinya speakers in Eritrea and that this language is increasing, it also states that this is the (Nation) language. This source also proves that Tigrinya is the biggest language and also is verifies what the other sources said, that Tigrinya is spoken by the majority of the population of Eritrea. It mentions that over 1.000.000 is Tigre speakers. Together with Tigrinya it makes up 3.500.000 million of the population.

Third source: By Everyculure: http://www.everyculture.com/Cr-Ga/Eritrea.html This source did exist in the language section before on the Eritrea page. I just added more information from this page into the language section. This source also states that Tigrinya is the biggest language which again, verifies the other sources I provided. I also added in the language section that English is being taught from the second grade in Eritrea, which this source also claims and is correct since I have been working as a school teacher in Eritrea for over than 8 years. The source states:

"English is taught as a second language from second grade. It appears, however, that Tigrinya is taking over as the dominant language, since the majority of the population are Tigrinya-speakers, the biggest towns are located in the highlands, and most people in government and the state bureaucracy are from the Tigrinya ethnic group".

It also states that the biggest towns are located in the highlands, which is true, just take a look at any map of Eritrea. In the highlands the biggest Ethnic group is the Tigrinya which is true. Take a look at the Ethno- demographic map that is posted in the section "Demographics of Eritrea"--> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Eritrea. This source confirms also confirms this --> http://www.eritrea.be/old/eritrea-people.htm . I am sure that you can find every type of Ethnic group in Eritrea everywhere but generally each group have their own native spot or areas if you like to call it. For example "Tingrinyas" in the highlands, the "Rashidas in the northeast, "Afars" in the southeast etc.

Fourth sourcee: By ESL: http://esl.cmswiki.wikispaces.net/file/view/Languages_of_Eritrea.pdf This is a page that is made for teachers. The material in this case that is posted about Eritrea is mostly taken from the CIA factbook about Eritrea. For some reason the CIA factbook have taken away the section about different languages in Eritrea. The piece by ESL was written before the information was removed from CIA factbook. I can understand why this particular source can be questioned and removed, but still this source verifies that Tigrinya and Tigre makes up the majority of the languages being spoken in Eritrea (80%), with Tigrinya being the biggest.

--Economy--

First source: By African Development Bank Group (2011): http://www.afdb.org/en/countries/east-africa/eritrea/eritrea-economic-outlook/ This is an organization that impartially tries to spur sustainable economic development and social progress in its regional member countries. In the section for "Eritrea's economic outlook" they write about the development of Eritrea economy which has to do with the growing mining sector in Eritrea. This was the information i added, plus information about BNP ect. These information is much more up to date then the old information in the economic section, which I have not removed. I removed the old picture of the "Commercial Bank in Massawa" , which is not representative to the Eritrean economy at all since this is not the main commercial bank of Eritrea. There is a "head" commercial bank of Eritrea which is located in Asmara. I added a picture of the Bisha mine in Eritrea since this mine is has had the biggest effect on Eritrea's economy the last two years. If this is not pleasing to some of you, I can suggest to add a picture of the commercial bank of Asmara also. But I don't see why you would want to take away the picture of the Bisha Mine?

Second source: By MIT (Massachusetts Institution of Technology) (2009): http://atlas.media.mit.edu This source (picture) of the tree map export already existed before. I removed it and replaced it with a newer version since the old picture was from 2007. The new picture is from 2009 and includes the Gold export of Eritrea.

--Culture (Cuisine)--

First Source: By Pamela Goyan Kittler, Kathryn Sucher,Food and culture Eritrea" (Book) (2011): http://books.google.com/books?id=R06H7WabJuMC&pg=PA202&lpg=PA202&dq=Pamela+Goyan+Kittler,+Kathryn+Sucher,+%27%27Food+and+culture+eritrea&source=bl&ots=EggZiH9FRY&sig=gsyjRHu9FRNulFbndRRYOwxld8w&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=hkOCUtxgyazgBNjvgbgK&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=Pamela%20Goyan%20Kittler%2C%20Kathryn%20Sucher%2C%20&f=false

This source already existed in the culture section. The only thing that was change was the claim that "Somalian cuisine is very similar to Eritrean". Which the source does not claim!. The source claims that Eritrean and Somalian Cuisines are similar to Ethiopians cuisine. Therefore the person who used the source in the first place should try to read it again.

Second source: By chow.com (2011): http://www.chow.com/food-news/78493/how-ethiopian-eritrean-and-somali-cuisines-are-different/ I also used this source since it point outs and clarifies the differences between Eritrean, Somalian and Ethiopian cuisine. This source claims that Eritrean cuisine and Somalian are not the similar! Here is a statement from the actual source:

"Eritrean food is extremely similar to Ethiopian but you will find a little bit more fish involved, and much more Italian influence, as it was occupied for a period of time"

"Somalia is a completely different story, says dagoose. "It is nearly entirely coastline, which means it saw much more influences from outside sources. You'll find it has flavors of the Middle East that have migrated south, as well as some of the Kenyan flavors that have migrated north—including their heavily Indian immigrant influenced cuisines."

I also added information about the locally brewed beer in Eritrea known as "Sowa" (Known as Tella in Ethiopia) and a honey wine called "Mies" (Known as gesho in Ethiopia). I will add more sources of this.

--Other Comments--

And finally I removed the picture of the "Saho women" since it was placed under the language section, and secondly they are only 4 % of the Eritrean population and not representative to the whole population of Eritrea. I know that the Rasishas is also 2%, but that picture has been on the Eritrea page for many years and in the right section. My suggestion is to change these pirctures to a collage where every ethnic group in Eritrea is represented or remove the picture of the "Rashida" children and "Saho women". Since people seem to have different opinions.

The user Middayexpress has removed all of my contributions, without taking it to discussions, "is this vandalism?". I think that users who contribute to this page should be objective and not partial of any side, Muslim or Christians User Middayexpress always seem to try to include Somalia in every topic and issue that involves Eritrea, Ethiopia, Kenya eaven if it is not relevant. Lets stay to facts and nothing but facts and reliable sources. Users should give constructive criticisms and try to discuss matters instead of just removing contributions which takes time to write.

This is Wikipedia and everybody should be welcome to contribute and people should not try to serve their own interest.

Looking forward to constructive discussions.

Hiyob346 (talk) 23:43, 14 November 2013 (UTC)Hiyob346

Those are some of the same self-published sources and wikis (wikispaces?) I was alluding above. You don't do yourself any favors by presenting them here out of context. Fact is, you removed the Saho women pic outright; and not once, but twice. The section it was placed in had nothing to do with it because the Saho and their language are mentioned in it. Collages aren't commonly used for peoples on country pages, but something tells me you are aware of this too. You also removed all mention of the commonalities between Eritrean, Ethiopian and Somalian cuisine and with no legitimate justification other than a personal attack on a veteran editor. FYI, the very link you present above begins "the cuisines of Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia have major similarities" [3]. Difficult to overlook that when it's the very first sentence. It's also impossible for you to know anything about my edits unless you're not a newbie at all, which I suspect is the situation here. Your edits and behavior are redolent of that one bellicose editor on Eritrea's religion and demographic pages. Middayexpress (talk) 23:55, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Every source is put into context. I'm trying to explain and motivate my contributions and sources. I gave you 9 sources that was not wikis. Be specific, If you are questioning my sources, Why don't you write what’s wrong with them instead and give some constructive criticism? I have never tried to contribute without a source that backs up the claim. The person that engages in "edit wars" when it comes to the religion demographics should be banned.

Hiyob346 (talk) 00:38, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Some specifics were already pointed out in the first post above, and in the second one below it. The removal or replacement of the Saho pic, bar box, and cuisine similarities are unwarranted. The eritrea.be, everyculture, and wikispace links are also self-published sources, so what they assert is unreliable. Further, both religion figures can be cited to show the percentage range for the main faiths. The AfdB material and newer tree map are ok. However, the Massawa branch pic of the Commercial Bank of Eritrea is preferable to the Bisha mine pic, which is copyrighted and about to be deleted. Lastly, Ethnologue states that there are 6,915,000 Tigrinya speakers in all countries, and 4,320,000 of those speakers are in Ethiopia [4]. So that link above claiming that 80% of people in Eritrea are Tigrinya speakers is clearly referring to lingua franca usage, not first language usage. Middayexpress (talk) 01:27, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

You don't mention the rest of the 9 sources? Again, be specific about all sources you say is wrong. Since you are removing everyone of them, including the contributions. The removal of the rashida picture from your behalf is wrong and are unwarranted. As i suggested it is better to remove both of them than keeping one of them. Since neither of them is representative to all of the ethnic groups. The cuisine similarities can be written and explained under the Eritrean cuisine page or somewhere else. Once again you throw in Somali information that is not correct in the texts. The source ('Food and culture Eritrea" (Book))you mention does not state that Eritrean and Somalian cuisines are similar, this is your own source! It states that both Eritrean and Somalian are similar to Ethiopian, but not to eachother. There is a big difference between that. Also the other sources about the cuisines does state that their is similarities between the cuisines but only mentions similarities between Eritrean and Ethiopian. The source also mentions "that the Somali food is an totally different thing, " , and the source continuous by explain why they are different. The bar about religious affiliations should be removed since it got an old source, but also since I added a newer version of that same source. Many sources say different thing, so it does not make it right to use your old source and make a bar of it and to visualize statistics that is out of date. Therefore, I have provided the source by Pew Research Center, which you do not want to talk about. The Bisha picture has already been removed, but a donated version will be added. Ethnologue states that there are 2.500.000 million Tigrinya speakers in Eritrea, and 1.000.0000 Tigray speakers in Eritrea. Do the math, 3.500.0000 makes up more than half of Eritrea population, regardless any source you will find about the Eritrean population. I wrote that they together make up half of the population which the source I posted by the Government of Australia also confirms. Tigrinya ethnic group make up 55 % of the total population and they speak Tigrinya is that strange to you?. Please read it thoroughly again!

(Hiyob346 (talk) 02:41, 15 November 2013 (UTC))

Each of your "9 sources" was addressed above. I replaced the Rashaida pic (a recent migrant group originally from the Hejaz in Saudi Arabia) with one of the Saho (a native Eritrean ethnicity with twice the Rashaida's population size). Funny how you noticed this when I made this change before you even registered this account. The source for the bar box can be easily updated, so claiming that it's old is not a valid pretext for removing it altogether. You replaced a reliable source highlighting the similarities between Eritrean, Somalian and Ethiopian cuisine with some "chow blog" that states in its very first line that the cuisines of Ethiopia, Eritrea, and Somalia are similar. Most editors wouldn't even dignify such an edit with a response since blogs are unreliable sources. Now that I think of it, your arguments here are virtually identical to the aggressive ip on the injera page as well. Lastly, Ethnologue indeed states that there are around 2,500,000 speakers of Tigrinya in Eritrea and 1,050,000 Tigre speakers [5]. 3,500,000 speakers is a little over 50% of Eritrea's population of 6,233,682. That's nowhere near the 80% you suggest, even after the few Arabic, Dahlik and Ge'ez speakers are factored into the total. Middayexpress (talk) 03:31, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

New changes for Eritrea page, and suggestions

I have removed all of the sources you did not like and replaced them with new better ones, but also kept the good ones.

Religion:

Change 1: Remove the box that displays the Religious affiliations, since it uses source from 2007. I will add the exact same source from 2011 (By us Department of state), where it states that Christianity is the 50% of the population. There is also a source with a worldwide study that verifies that Muslim is not majority, only 36, %. By Pew Research Center. My suggestion is that we change the numbers to the latest source by US department of state. Or keep both of the sources as in my last version of the edit. The rest of the information in the religion section should not be changed and is Ok.

Sources:

http://www.pewforum.org/files/2009/10/Muslimpopulation.pdf

http://www.webcitation.org/5ywEZKW1R

Economy:

Change 1: Add that the a big reason for the big growth of Eritrean Economy is owing to the commencement of full operations in the gold and silver Bisha mine and to the production of cement from the cement factory in Massawa. Keep the rest in this section.

Source:

http://www.afdb.org/en/countries/east-africa/eritrea/eritrea-economic-outlook/

Language:

Change 1: Add that Tigrinya is the biggest language, approx half of the population. But we don’t need to add that it is the majority language. There we could compromise. Ethnologue writes that when the population was 5.254.000 in 2006, 2.540.000 was Tigrinya speakers. That’s about 50%.

Sources:

http://ethnomed.org/culture/eritrean/eritrean-cultural-profile

http://www.ethnologue.com/country/ER

Change 2: Add that Tigrinya Language and Tigre together makes up the majority of the languages being spoken in Eritrea. We don’t need to take away anything from this section just add more. According to Ethnologoues data 1.050.000 was Tigre speakers 2006. Tigrinya speakers 2.540.000. Together 3.5090.000 when the population was 5.254.000, so together they are majority!

Source:

http://www.immi.gov.au/living-in-australia/delivering-assistance/government-programs/settlement-planning/_pdf/community-profile-eritrea.pdf

http://www.ethnologue.com/country/ER

Culture: About the Cuisine

Change 1: Add to the cusine section (On the Eritrea page) that Suwa is traditionally a common sorghum beer common in Eritrea. Another alcoholic drink that is common is Mies, made out of honey

Sources:

http://www.who.int/substance_abuse/publications/en/eritrea.pdf

http://books.google.se/books?id=f0R7iHoaykoC&pg=PA191&lpg=PA191&dq=suwa+eritrean+drink&source=bl&ots=ylQIkf9PU_&sig=jBIiJ0Gyzvoh1Cm6iqGHop0DhFs&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=loCGUo6eCunR4QTWiYGoCg&ved=0CFMQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=suwa%20eritrean%20drink&f=false

http://books.google.se/books?id=U0o_6dGSTr8C&pg=PA67&lpg=PA67&dq=suwa+eritrean+drink&source=bl&ots=zIUEmK-kz0&sig=vk6NG25rRRw5tUHXxe5DEidX2yk&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=3oSGUu3VO4eO5ATjmYCgBA&ved=0CGYQ6AEwBzgU#v=onepage&q=suwa%20eritrean%20drink&f=false

http://ethnomed.org/culture/eritrean/eritrean-cultural-profile

http://www.worldtravelguide.net/eritrea/food-and-drink

Change 2: Add to the cuisine section that the main traditional food in Eritrea is Injera made with teff wheat or sorghum, eaten with different stews.

Source:

http://books.google.se/books?id=Ky9oYQlhDv4C&pg=PA283&dq=injera+eritrea&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=LaqGUpL6H4GI4gTsqoDgAw&ved=0CFoQ6AEwBDgK#v=onepage&q=injera%20eritrea&f=false

http://books.google.se/books?id=Qi-KQchGks8C&pg=PA68&dq=injera+eritrea&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=yayGUorTDZPY4QSy9YHQAQ&ved=0CFoQ6AEwAw#v=onepage&q=injera%20eritrea&f=false

http://books.google.se/books?id=pg7IfHCSVRgC&pg=PA131&dq=injera+eritrea&hl=sv&sa=X&ei=FaqGUoGmNeHl4gSl0oCADQ&ved=0CHsQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=injera%20eritrea&f=false

Change 3: Provide another reliable source that Eritrean and Somalian Cuisine are similar. The source “Food and culture” does not claim that Eritrean cuisine are similar. It only claims that Eritrean and Somalia cuisine are similar to Ethiopian, not to each other. If you find a good source that claims this, I will accept it. Since you say it is similar this wouldn’t be hard to find. Try to find a source that explains that they are smilar, but also how they are similar specifically.

Pictures changes

1. Restore the picture of Eritrea’s Ethno Demography picture since this displays all of the Ethnic groups by area. Since this picture can also be found in the section Demographics of Eritrea.

2. Restore, the picture of the St. Joseph Cathedral. Joseph Cathedral is one of the most visited tourist attraction in Eritrea and Asmara. This picture does not break Copyright rules.

3. Remove the picture of Saho women and Rashida children since these groups are not representative for the whole population of Eritrea. Together they only make up 6 %. As the government say, each ethnic group are treated equally. So the argument that Rashid’s is an immigrated group and Saho’s native does not count, both are recognized. Neither of these pictures is breaking any copyright rules. But since people have different opinions about what picture to use it is better to remove both.

4. Replace the picture of the commercial bank in (Massawa) with a picture of head commercial bank of Asmara instead. Since this is the head office and can represent the economy in a much better way.

5. Remove the old three map export picture since this one is from 2007. Replace it with version from 2009 that I added.

(Hiyob346 (talk) 22:52, 16 November 2013 (UTC))

The cuisine book implies that Eritrean, Somalian and Ethiopian culinary traditions are similar, which is why it discusses Somali injera in the very next sentence. In any event, I've added another link specifically asserting that the cuisines are similar. As for the demographics, the Raishida are recent migrants to Eritrea from Saudi Arabia (19th century). They are indeed citizens, but are not representative of many Eritreans, whereas the Cushitic Saho certainly are. I've also replaced the Enda Mariam Orthodox Church pic with one of the 15th century Sheikh Hanafi Mosque in Massawa since there was no mosque pic opposite St. Joseph's Cathedral. Middayexpress (talk) 17:04, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

The cuisine book , does not state that they are similar to each other in plain text and it certainly does not states that they"extremely smilar". It only makes the statement that Eritrean are similar to Ethiopian. I can understand why many countries in the horn have similar influences in their cuisine. Your new source confirms exactly that, which I have written on the cuisine section. But, since we know that the Eritrean cuisine is almost identical to the Ethiopian based on their history, it is most relevant to keep this only this information on the cuisine section. If you want to write about the similarities and differences about the many horn cuisine you can write it on the cuisines pages. And as for the "Suwa" beer and the "Mies", they are most certainly traditional alcoholic beverages so stop removing this information. I have given you 4 sources regarding this. I can give you 4 more. If you would ever been to Eritrea you would also know this. As for the mosque picture it is very good that you uploaded it since the page has a picture of a mosque and church which is very representative for Eritrea. Lastly, the saho pic should be removed. no rashida should be added since they are not representative as mentioned.

(Hiyob346 (talk) 20:33, 17 November 2013 (UTC)).

That Suwa and Mies are alcoholic bevarages was not removed. It's clearly indicated that Mies is "another popular local alcoholic beverage". By the way, Eritrean Mulsims for the most part do not drink alcoholic bevarages, and they make up almost 50% of the local population. So these drinks should not be presented as nationwide staples. At any rate, what was removed was all reference to the similarities between Eritrean cuisine and Somali cuisine, but not between Eritrean cuisine and Ethiopian cuisine. So clearly, it's the commonalities between Eritrean cuisine and Somali cuisine that are the real problem. That's unfortunate because Tekle indicates that both culinary traditions are similar [6]. I also didn't upload the mosque pic; I just added it here. No valid reasons for removing the Saho pic have been provided. There's already a wedding pic of what looks to be Tigrinya folks. It therefore only makes sense to have one for Eritrea's second largest demographic group, Cushitic speakers. Middayexpress (talk) 21:07, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

No the mentioning of alcohol was not removed this time. But you did remove 3 of these sources. Do you speak for all Muslims when you say that they do not drink suwa, mies, alcohols? I have 4 sources that claims that it is most certainly a traditional alcoholic beverages of Eritrea. What sources do you have? From what I know, many Muslims tend to drink alcohol, every Muslim person is different. So to say that mies and suwa are not being drunken by 50 % of the population and Muslims are a lie. Eritrean Muslims also tend to be very liberal, but that you did not know maybe, like in Turkey etc. Sure there is influences in the cuisines in the horn region, but not any source you have provided states that Eritrean and Somalian cuisines are "extremely similar" as you write. Coffe cermonies and drinking is already mentioned in the early sections of the cuisine section. That "people tend to drink coffe in Eritrea, and tea in Somalia" are not cuisine similarities. Many countries all over the world drinks coffe and tea. Does that make the Eritrean cuisine similar to the US cuisine for example. No, it does not. The book "food and culture" writes that Somalians drink tea to their meals, and Eritreans drink suwa, do you really think Eritreans drinks suwa beer to all of their meals? , that would be insane. So that source is questioned. Look at the 4 suwa sources I have given you instead, I can provide you with many more. The saho pic and the Tigrinya pic can be removed, since every ethnic group is not represented.

(Hiyob346 (talk) 22:08, 17 November 2013 (UTC)).

None of the links claim that Eritrean Muslims drink those alcoholic beverages nor obviously would they. It's original research to insinuate that they do, and defies logic too since Qur'anic instruction forbids alcohol consumption. Here's a link on Eritrea that expressly states this: "At Christian weddings, men, often the groom himself, serve suwa to the guests[...] This is a fermented alcoholic drink made from honey and grain[...] Muslims do not drink alcohol, but they do serve a festive meal including lamb, goat, or beef." In other words, suwa is a drink mainly consumed by Eritrea's Christians, not its Muslims. That many Eritreans drink suwa whereas Somalis prefer sweetened tea is likewise in this instance one of the main differences between the two cuisines, not similarities [7]. Middayexpress (talk) 22:51, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Manufacturing history

Reading what is written about Eritrea and Aksum, I have sensed that there is a scheme to makeup history favoring Eritrea. 1)There has never been a Hamasen Republic. 2) the Kingdom of Aksum was mostly in the present day Ethiopia, Tigray Region, some Parts of Eritrea are included, but not as much as the one depicted in the map presented here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Elyaad (talk • contribs) 10:58, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Please Fix The official designation of State of Eritrea.

The word Tigrinya and its link page should be taken out of the official designation of Eritrea. The official emblem and designation of Eritrea does not have the word Tigrinya in it. It has Hagere Ertra on the left and Dawlat Eritrea on the right. Please take out the word TIgrignya as Tigrnya is only one of the nine languages and does not appear in the official designation of the state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Teweldino (talk • contribs) 22:11, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

"Tigrinya" isn't part of the name, it is there in the infobox to indicate the name of the country in the Tigrinya language (i.e. ሃገረ ኤርትራ Hagere Ertra). However, I'm not sure why the same wasn't done for the Arabic name below it (دولة إرتريا Dawlat Iritriyá). furthermore I have noticed that other country articles don't specify the name of the language, they simply give the name in that language (compare for example Sudan, Central African Republic, Germany, Japan). However, the Ethiopia article is another exception to this. Not sure if there is a MOS that covers this, but the instructions for {{Infobox country}} don't specify that one should include the name of the language within |native_name=, and most other countries don't do it, so I will edit Eritrea and Ethiopia to be consistent with other country articles. -- Gyrofrog (talk) 22:30, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Adoption of Christianity

For the approximate time that Christianity was adopted by Eritrea, the source cited is not sufficient. It merely states that *when* Islam had conquered Egypt it came into conflict with the Christianity in Eritrea. That's all. This does not infer that that adoption was "shortly" after the 1st or 2nd centuries.Wjhonson (talk) 16:45, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Picture of Eritrea's ethnic groups in the demographics section

I suggest that we add pictures of all nine ethnic groups in Eritrea or remove the picture of two ethnic group pictures in the demographics section. Referring to the Tigrinya Eritrean wedding picture[8] and the saho women picture.[9] These groups don't reflects all the groups or the diversity within Eritrea. Even if the Tigrinya's make up big part of the population (55%) and the saho's make up (2-4%) there are seven group's left out. The nine ethnic groups are all treated equal in Eritrea.

For example Ethiopia got approximately 90 ethnic groups but there is not picture's referring to ethnic group. It's pretty the same with any other country page.

A option could be to replace them with a picture of notable Eritrean's in the American diaspora. [10] Or any other picture that can be suggested. However, best option would be to remove them and since it would be tricky to add nine picture's of all groups.

(Vetrisimino0 (talk) 12:19, 4 June 2014 (UTC))

The wedding pic is of average Eritreans, like the coffee ceremony woman. For its part, the Saho image shows one of Eritrea's main ethnolinguistic communities (the Saho, Afro-Asiatic speakers of the Cushitic branch), and in the relevant language section. Middayexpress (talk) 14:10, 4 June 2014 (UTC)

The picture is of a christian-orthodox wedding, the group on the picture are from the Tigrinya group its the same with the woman in the coffee cermony picture. Its traditional tigrinya clothes that they are wearing. Saho's got their own language but there is eight more since every group has it's own language. It does not matter where on the page the picture's are shown really, demographics or language section. The main point is that instead of having picture's of only two groups its better to remove them or add picture's of all groups. That would not offence anyone from a specific group. It's the same with the church and mosque picture's, you can't just add pictures of church's, that why you got pictures of both of them. Simple as that. (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 15:23, 5 June 2014 (UTC))

It's not that simple since obviously not all ethnic groups can be accommodated. There's also nothing strange about the (presumably) Tigrinya wedding, or for that matter the Saho women. Both are, after all, two of the nation's main Afro-Asiatic populations. Middayexpress (talk) 15:37, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

If it's such a problem to add all we should not have anyone, since all are not shown and that would be most fair. I think you are missing the point, there is nothing wrong with the picture's. I forget to remove the coffee ceremony pic and thought of adding a jebena picture instead since that is used to serve coffe instead of the tigrinya woman picture. How about that? (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 15:45, 5 June 2014 (UTC))

Kindly do not again remove the wedding/Saho images. As for the coffee ceremony, it (server or jebena) actually isn't particularly necessary as it clutters the section; the one Kitcha fit-fit dish is sufficient. Middayexpress (talk) 16:15, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

It would be good to get advise from someone that can help us with this issue. I don't understand how your opinion matters more than those who can get annoyed or get disturbed of the fact that their groups are not shown. It would be good to respect that. Like myself, that's not from either of these group.(Vetrisimino0 (talk) 16:37, 5 June 2014 (UTC))

You are being quite unreasonable. The demographic and language sections can only accommodate one pic each. Images of each of Eritrea's recognized ethnic groups obviously can't be accomodated therein, nor are there even copyright free images available for most of the groups in question. Your edits also have an odd air of familiarity about them; especially your first post. Middayexpress (talk) 16:57, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I've asked for a third opinion on this matter. Left some comments on your page also. Please do not remove them as they can be used to help us reach consensus. There are several picture in Wikipedia commons that are free to use and share. So there is not reason just have the Saho picture in the language section. Simply remove that and the tigrinya pic if we can't find pictures of other groups. Since it could be offending to other groups that its only these groups that are shown.(Vetrisimino0 (talk) 17:32, 5 June 2014 (UTC)).

That's nonsense. There are no copyright free images available of most of the other ethnic groups. More importantly, if the wedding pic were really a problem because the people in it are presumably Tigrinya and this would supposedly be "offending to other groups that its only these groups that are shown", you wouldn't have added the coffee ceremony woman (who you also indicated above is Tigrinya). I think it's time you revealed what you really have against those images, User:Hiyob346. By the way, you didn't leave mere "comments" on my userpage. You left a series of invalid disruptive editing templates, even after I removed them. Those are repeated violations of my userpace per WP:HUSH. Middayexpress (talk) 18:00, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't know who you are confusing me with. I advise you to take the time too look. There are pictures of three other groups. Do you mind if i added them? The wedding and saho picture are not a problem. They are simply displaying two ethnic groups out of nine, in traditional clothes and ceremonies. I was adding the coffee woman since it showed how the serving of the coffee was made. This a common tradition among every Eritreans and not to a group. However after consideration I came to the conclusion that is not fair, that's why I added the picture of the jebena (coffee pot). (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 18:13, 5 June 2014 (UTC))

Sorry, but there are too many holes in your story. The same coffee woman that you suggested is Tigrinya wasn't originally a problem for you; she only apparently became one after you suggested the wedding attendees were Tigrinya too. The coffee ceremony is also mainly a Habesha tradition (not all Eritreans), and of this you are likely already aware. At any rate, what other ethnic groups are you referring to there? Let me guess; the Rashaida, right? Middayexpress (talk) 18:43, 5 June 2014 (UTC)

What are you referring to when you are writing that. I came to that conclusion after I posted the picture. I did not study the ethnicity of the woman making coffee. The coffee ceremonies may originate from the habeshas but other Eritrean groups make coffee the same way. I think there are pictures of a few other groups like tigrinya, kunama etc. As pointed out before, do you think we could add the pic of the US- diaspora picture? that you added to wikipedia commons. Since that picture of Eritreans are not tied to ethnicity. It is simply not fair to have one or two groups on there at the moment. (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 15:11, 6 June 2014 (UTC)).

I'm afraid that's still not particularly believable. It took you awhile to identify the coffee serving woman as Tigrinya, yet somehow had no problem claiming right off the bat that the wedding attendees -- who are dressed in similar traditional attire -- are Tigrinya. Nay... something tells me this has little if anything to do with "fairness". Call it deja vu. Middayexpress (talk) 15:32, 6 June 2014 (UTC)

There seems to be a lack of cooperativeness since my questions are not getting any response. I think it is better to leave this for others to make a decision. (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 18:02, 8 June 2014 (UTC))

Response to third opinion request:

I am responding to a third opinion request for this page. I have made no previous edits on Eritrea and have no known association with the editors involved in this discussion. The third opinion process is informal and I have no special powers or authority apart from being a fresh pair of eyes.

(Disagreement that only two pictures of Eritrea's ethnic groups (with traditional costumes) are represented in the article in language & demographics section. Since Eritrea has nine ethnic groups with different languages, traditions, religions.) Lightbreather (talk) 19:38, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Wow, that template didn't work as advertised - or maybe I did something wrong. Anyway, this is my response to your 3rd opinion request: While it would be preferable to have photos representative of each ethnic group, I know of no policy that says photos should be withheld until all groups can be represented pictorially. Do suggest, if it's verifiable, that the caption for the "wedding in Eritrea" be expanded to include that group's ethnicity. Also, suggest you visit Wikimedia Commons and possibly reach out to photographer there, Dawit Rezenè. Perhaps he/she could help you? Lightbreather (talk) 19:45, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks; that's what I had figured. Middayexpress (talk) 19:50, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for the response. The person with the third opinion writes that it is preferable to add pictures of all ethnic groups. Sure there is no policy that states that pictures should be withheld until all groups can be represented. However since there is not pictures of all ethnic groups at the moment as mentioned, it is most fair and makes most sense to add a picture that is not related to an specific ethnic group. (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 20:27, 11 June 2014 (UTC))

That's not what the editor said, of course. And with me there are now 3 editors disagreeing with you, so you clearly don't have consensus to keep images off the article. Dougweller (talk) 21:03, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

user:Dougweller You have been involved in this conflict by expressing you opinion at an earlier stage. Your opinion in this matter does not count since you also reverted my edit and have been communicating with the person I am in conflict with before. The person that gave the third opinion has clearly wrote that it would be good to add pictures of all groups but not to remove the existing ones. So he agreed to add more pictures. So for now it is still 1 against 1. So it is not in favour for anybody at this moment. Since my second option was to add more pictures. (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 22:00, 11 June 2014 (UTC)).

Actually, User:Dougweller is quite right. You wrote above that "instead of having picture's of only two groups its better to remove them or add picture's of all groups", while Lightbreather indicated the exact opposite of that ("I know of no policy that says photos should be withheld until all groups can be represented pictorially"). As for your so-called second option, it was actually to "add a picture that is not related to an specific ethnic group". That too is obviously precluded by the foregoing. Middayexpress (talk) 22:19, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia is wp:not a wp:gallery. Images should add to an article, they are not the focus of it. We have a manual of style, WP:MOSIMAGES and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images, which shows how they should be used. Some pictures not being in the article is not a reason for existing ones to be removed. Nor is existing images being in the article a reason to add others. That such reasoning is based on inter-ethnic rivalry is just another reason to avoid them. It is not 'fair' or 'unfair' to have pictures of certain ethnic groups. It's just what it is, a particular snapshot. That's what a photo is. CMD (talk) 22:33, 11 June 2014 (UTC)

To user:Middayexpress, I gave you several options days ago with no reply. All listed in the first conversation above. But you are free to make your own assumptions of what I have been writing/doing. 1.The first option I suggested was to remove the existing two pictures if we could not add pictures of all groups.2.Second option was to add pictures of more ethnic groups that are available in wcommons. 3.Third option was to add a picture of famous Eritreans in the US Diaspora that did not have ethnicity ties. I've accepted and come to an understanding that option one and three are not possible at the moment. However, option two is most certainly possible. To user:Chipmunkdavis some of the things that you write are illogical. There is no rule that stops users to add more pictures to this article, if they are free to use, if they could add value and bring more understanding to the article for the reader. You are basically writing that we could never post a new picture in this article. Of course it is possible to add more pictures, if there's not any bad motives behind it that could cause an ethnicity conflict etc. I have acted in good faith and have not had any bad intentions. I will look up images that could be used from commons but also contact some photographers. I will not add pictures in order to be fair. I will simply try to add more ethnic group pictures that are free, available and that could contribute to this article. (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 05:50, 12 June 2014 (UTC))

The number of images any article can have is limited by the text. Images should not squeeze text between them,and they should be staggered left and right. This limits the number of possible image inclusions, usually to one or two a section/subsection. CMD (talk) 09:32, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes nobody is questioning that. The pictures that will be added will fit the text and format of the article. There also exist a possibility to expanding the demographics section with text/format so they could be added in section/subsections that does not have pictures. I have found three pictures of different groups, these are of the kunama group[11], rashaida group[12] and one of these picture of the Tigrinya group [13], [14](Vetrisimino0 (talk) 12:09, 12 June 2014 (UTC)).

Vetrisimino0, I don't know why you think my opinion doesn't count. I don't want to be rude to someone as new as you are, but of course my opinion counts. That's the way it works. Dougweller (talk) 14:30, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Vetrisimino0: As can be seen above, I have replied to all of your various claims, so there's no point in suggesting othwerise. At any rate, you now appear to be contradicting your original position that images of only a few groups would "offence anyone from a specific group". This is apparently not true since you've just proposed images from roughly the same number of ethnic groups. It's also evident that you have something against the wedding image in particular that you are not divulging since you just suggested replacing it with one of two others of people that you indicated were from the same Tigrinya ethnic group (including one copyright violation, btw). It would have been best if you had been upfront about these personal reservations from the start so that they could be assessed on their own merits. Middayexpress (talk) 14:59, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

user:Dougweller As I pointed out before you did revert my edits. Since I wanted a neutral view I asked for an opinion from a third person that was not involved in the issue. Your opinion does count but I did not ask you for your opinion since I could not see how your opinion could be neutral in this matter. No offence. To Middayexpress, you did respond but did not specifically respond to the questions to add more pictures instead you questioned my motives, and still are. I think I have made my point clear at this point. I have nothing against the wedding picture, the other pictures of the Tigrinya group was just suggestions and a matter of taste from my side to replace it. I am just suggesting more picture that are available wcommons. I suggest we move forward with this issue. (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 12:55, 13 June 2014 (UTC))

Your proposal was rejected, including by the third opinion you sought. It also looks like one of your linked Tigrinya images has since been deleted as a copyright violation. By the way, kindly stop removing the cultural ties between Eritrea and other Northeast African territories from the culture of Eritrea page. Middayexpress (talk) 17:11, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes I have agreed to that should we should not remove the existing pictures. If pictures are added there will only be pictures that are OK to use and fits format and text. When it comes to the culture of Eritrea page I have left a reply on that talk page. Just a reminder, please add source's to the text you are adding. Also don't draw conclusions and interpret sources the way you want, please use common sense & be rational/logical.(Vetrisimino0 (talk) 10:36, 14 June 2014 (UTC))

What User:Dougweller explained with regard to obtaining prior agreement applies regardless. As for the culture of Eritrea page, I did attribute the historical ties. You nonetheless still removed the phrase for what, based on your edit summaries and talk page comments (e.g. [15]), appear to be personal reasons. Middayexpress (talk) 16:56, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes as he/she wrote "you clearly don't have consensus to keep images off the article.". So nothings is goin to be romeved. But that dont exlcude anything from being added if its done in the right manner. From what I know this discussion about this issue is over. Regarding the culture page, You did not attribute the ties between the two countries, instead you interpreted the source the way you wanted. For some reason, possibly personal or idelogical. It has been explained in that pages's talk section. If you want to discuss regarding that matter use the talk section on that page. (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 12:42, 15 June 2014 (UTC))

Not quite. What Lightbreather was alluding to there was your assertion that "instead of having picture's of only two groups its better to remove them or add picture's of all groups". He indicated the exact opposite of that ("I know of no policy that says photos should be withheld until all groups can be represented pictorially"). In any event, prior agreement is still required for any images, as Dougweller explained in an edit summary. As for the culture of Eritrea page, the passage was now quoted directly so as to avoid any ambiguity (not interpreted). You nonetheless still removed the phrase for what, based on your edit summaries and talk page comments (e.g. [16]), indeed appear to be personal reasons. Middayexpress (talk) 14:38, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

I have not objected, and yes its been agreed if pictures are added it should follow prior argreement. Regarding culture page, yes its the direct qoute. Its used in a way that is not relevant, and its very broad qoute that can be interpreted in many ways. And you used it before to draw conslusion regarding historical ties between two specific countries that do not exist. Nothing has been agreed about what should be put up there and keep the discussion on that talk page, its wrong to discuss it here since many things becomes left out and this is the wrong page to have that disussion.(Vetrisimino0 (talk) 16:03, 15 June 2014 (UTC))

With respect, it's quite a stretch to claim that "Djibouti, Eritrea, Ethiopia, Somalia and Sudan have significant similarities emanating not only from culture, religion, traditions, history and aspirations but also from being in comparable levels of income and economic development" is not an indication of cultural and other commonalities among these states. At any rate, I've left a reply there. Middayexpress (talk) 16:58, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia welcomes more pictures, pictures bring more readers. There is no reason why all ethnic groups cannot be represented in this article with pictures. The text should not present a limiting factor in that decision. Or perhaps let us start a *new* article specifically titled Ethnic Groups of Eritrea and expand the topic in that article. That new article could then be linked back to the sub section here on Ethnic Groups.Wjhonson (talk) 22:40, 19 June 2014 (UTC)

Per MOS:IMAGES, images should not compromise the page's overall layout. They should also not be used to express textual information in place of real text. So there is indeed a finite number of images that can be accommodated. That said, a main page already exists for the nation's various recognized ethnic groups; it's linked to here as well. Middayexpress (talk) 18:41, 20 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, but that don't keep pictures from being added. As long it dont move around around text and is done correctly. There could be added a table of the different ethnic groups as in the dempgrapics section with stats. After that it could be possible to add two or three small pictures of the kunama, rashaida for example. Or simply add more text in the dempgrapics section to fit the pages format so it can accommodate more pictures. (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 10:09, 24 June 2014 (UTC))

It's ironic that you are now arguing that pictures shouldn't be withheld, when that is basically what you originally proposed vis-a-vis the wedding and Saho women. Perhaps, then, it's only certain images that are really the issue? At any rate, as explained above, images should complement the text per WP:MOSIMAGES, not the other way around. That hypothetical table would also be non-standard and pretty large at that. It theoretically could be structured along ethnolinguistic lines (Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan), and perhaps accommodate an image of the Rashida and one of the Kunama alongside the Saho women and Tigrinya wedding. However, this still wouldn't jibe with your argument that images of only a few groups would offend anyone from a specific group. It too would likewise necessarily be limited by space and copyright. Middayexpress (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

I gave three suggestions. Seems that you have not ready my suggestions once again. You can make up any theory of what my motives are. One of the suggestion I offerd would be possible and that is adding a couple of pictures, period. Will come up with a solution so it fits the page. For example a small table is possible. (Vetrisimino0 (talk) 16:17, 25 June 2014 (UTC)).

You proposed an ultimatum to the effect that "instead of having picture's of only two groups its better to remove them or add picture's of all groups". Your justification for this was that "it could be offending to other groups that its only these groups that are shown". Now you are suggesting "to add two or three small pictures of the kunama, rashaida for example", which directly contradicts that stated justification. Anyway, why don't you play around a little in your sandbox; link from here to that draft table so that we get an idea what you mean. Also, try and structure it along ethnolinguistic lines (Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan) so that this doesn't have to be adjusted later, and bear in mind the size and copyright constraints. Middayexpress (talk) 17:41, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

I will play around in the sandbox a bit, I will link to that draft as you mentioned so you can see what im thinking.(Vetrisimino0 (talk) 18:21, 10 July 2014 (UTC))

Wildlife file

The author has granted the permission to use this photo [17] on wikipedia.org. The phtot will be relicensed according to the Commons licensing policy. So it is not necessary to redelete it all the time user:middayexpress. Vetrisimino0 (talk) 17:27, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

There's no indication that the file is copyright free or that permission was granted for its reuse. The original file page indicates that it is copyrighted, with All Rights Reserved by one Christian Vigna [18]. Middayexpress (talk) 17:36, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

The photo have now been given an commons licence. The photo is free for resuse according to the author. The copyright tag on the original page indicates that it belongs to the author. Vetrisimino0 (talk) 18:08, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

I've asked about that at [19]. Please don't restore it until that is settled as the copyright tag says "all rights reserved", which seems to be incompatible with using it here. Dougweller (talk) 18:14, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

No problem, I will wait on your answer. It may be possible to use them eaven if they have a copyright tag. But Im also in contact with the author at the moment and have aseked for changes in the orginal panoramio regarding the copyright in the webpage so it will also include text that shows that the photos are free to use, redistribute as long as the author is credited. This will be done for these three pictures. Im currently waiting for the author to change it. Vetrisimino0 (talk) 18:34, 30 September 2014 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the picture have been removed from commons. Still in talk with the authour and common's permission team in order to get a proper license for the pictures. After that I will re-upload.Vetrisimino0 (talk) 18:28, 7 October 2014 (UTC)

I've restored the Tour of Eritrea file. The cycling team image has a non-commercial and no derivatives license incompatible with Wikipedia's licensing policy [20]. Please stop removing files without discussion and adding copyrighted or otherwise incompatible files to the page. Middayexpress (talk) 19:52, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

Stats way off... FGM rates have actually plummeted in Eritrea?

Thought folks editing this page would find this discussion of interest: Talk:Female_genital_mutilation#Prevalence_stats_way_off--04:04, 14 October 2014 (UTC)

Tour, kitcha etc.

I have restored the Tour of Eritrea and kitcha files that were removed with no explanation, as well as a sentence on the cultural similarities between Eritrea and other nations in the Horn region. I also removed a large file on one Faytinga that was added in their place, due to file clutter and since her brand of Nilotic Kunama traditional music is not charateristic of that of Eritrea's majority Afro-Asiatic communities. Additionally, I replaced a low resolution file of the jebena pot with one of an Eritrean woman using it in a traditional coffee ceremony. Again, please stop removing files without discussion and adding incompatible or otherwise inappropriate files to the page. Middayexpress (talk) 15:57, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

And I have restoerd the pics and text I added. There was no text or line removed on similarities with other horn countries. New contributions, with new sport section, and music was added. The faytinga picture, jebena picture are new pictures to this page that has not changed in many years. You could embrace some new changes/photos and be opened minded to change them. These are not bad images in any way. You just seem to have other personal opinions. You seems to object everytime I add new material. You start to contribute when I write stuff. You do not seem to have interest in change the page otherwise. By the way, Faytinga is a big artist in Eritrea and outsise Eritrea and has been for over a decade. She is half Tigrinya half Kunama and sings in both Tigrinya and Kunama therefore her music is charesteristic of the Eritrean community ,she does represent a majority. And a photo of her can be used since a new music section has been added that mentions her. So it is very relevant to use it on this page. What an strange arguement, are you writing that she is not Eritrean enough? Vetrisimino0 (talk) 17:56, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

I am basically repeating to you what I and others have told you several times now above. Don't remove content without prior discussion and agreement. You didn't merely add files. You removed several existing ones to make room for those new files, and in the process also deleted the text described above. There's no point in denying this since it's right there in the dif [21]. You're continued usage of ips has also been noted. Middayexpress (talk) 18:08, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Could you mention what text i removed? Nothing that was discussed in earlier posts has to do with this. I added new sections, but I did not remove text. I have only replaced two photos that has been here for ages. I replaced it with two pics thas relevant to the new sections I have added, and they are of good quality. Do every change need to be discussed? I have discussed other issues before, but how are the new changes bad? I dont see anyone disliking it besides you. Could you please explain? If you do dislike the changes I have done please feel free to discuss them. My continued use of ip? Second time you go of topic and discuss things thats not relevant. Vetrisimino0 (talk) 19:36, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

You will need consensus to change the picture and remove all the other stuff you want. Anyways, I don't see the point in denying removal of content. As this diff shows, you also removed content regarding the cusines of Eritera. You have yet to give a reponce as to why you did this other than denying it. As for your IPs, you have used them several times before. Mentioning this is not off topic nor do I see how it could be so. AcidSnow (talk) 20:06, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Two images was replaced, the text you are referring to that has been removed are the text in the old pictures text boxes. So by replacing the picures, the text was removed with the picture, since this information was used to explain the pictures. This you could see on the dif. Which other information are you referring too? Thats the explanation. And as mentioned these two images was replaced with two new ones with new text. My motivation for adding new pics was that new sections was added to the page (music, sports section) so new pictures for the section was relevant. The new images are also of high quality. Vetrisimino0 (talk) 20:29, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Restored old picture that had text. So now nothing has been deleted. Only replaced, I have given explanation on why Faytinga, and pic of jebena is relevant. are you Ok with that? Vetrisimino0 (talk) 20:51, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

"the text you are refering to that has been removed are the text in the old pictures text boxes", they are not part of it. As anyone can see from this diff they are two separate things:

Besides convergent culinary tastes, Eritreans share an appreciation for similar music and lyrics, jewelry and fragrances, and tapestry and fabrics as other populations in the Horn region.

I still don't see why your trying to deny this. Nor why you claim to have removed two images when you actually removed three. All your doing is simply wasting everyone's time. The images you moved/removed were relevant to their corresponding areas. If they aren't, do you mind explaining why you moved Sembel down to the Kingdom of Axum and why you removed the Tour of Eritrea from the sports section? AcidSnow (talk) 20:54, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

It must have been deleted perhaps, I dont recall it being deleted but I dont have a reason to delete that line. And from what I know, If you go down to the last rows in the cuisine section it says "Besides convergent culinary tastes, Eritreans share an appreciation for similar music and lyrics, jewelry and fragrances, and tapestry and fabrics as other populations in the Horn region." Two images was replaced, see section again, I have added the food image. The new pictures are also relevant to the corresponding areas. And the Axum pic was just adjusted days ago, however it is now where you want it to be. Vetrisimino0 (talk) 21:05, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

Files should complement text, not the other way around. And yeah, that's the culinary paragraph in question. Middayexpress (talk) 15:03, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

It is exactly what my images did, they complimented the sections and text I added. The culinary paragraph in question is restored as I can see, I did not touch that and did not have reason too (not the cuisine image). Obviously when it comes to Faytinga you dont know what you are talking about. Faytinga is half Tigrinya and half Kunama, her father is Kunama and mother is Tigrinya. [22] If you even cared or would of to listen to her songs and albums you would know that half of her songs are in Tigrinya. So that argument does not last. The second image I added was the one of the coffe pot I added which middayexpress wrote was not of good quality, which is also not true since it was of better quality and clearer than the one that user replaced mine with. So that argument does not last either. The third argument was that the pics I added was clustering the page which anyone can tell is not true, the pictures were insert in a manner to prevent this from happening. My images are taking exactly the same space as yours. So that argument does not last either. Thats three poor arguments. Everything now is restored exactly in the way you reverted it to. The only dispute now are of the images. My suggestion is that the jebena coffee pot picture I added should be uploaded instead of the middayexpress added in the last version, it is of better quality and shows the jebena (a traditional/cultural object of Eritera, instead of the woman making coffee). The faytinga picture should be added, since I added a new music section that mentions her and Eritreas modern popular music. It should be there instead of the tour photo since it has been there for many years and is not such a high quality photograph. The cuisine picture can stay. I think thats a fair comprimize from my side. If we agree on that I will not replace, remove anything else regarding this issiue. Vetrisimino0 (talk) 17:22, 30 October 2014 (UTC)

The grainy, cropped jebena file is certainly not of better quality or more informative than that of the Eritrean woman using one during a traditional coffee ceremony. For the rest, User:AcidSnow pretty much already covered it all on your talk page. Middayexpress (talk) 16:08, 31 October 2014 (UTC)

No I dont agree. User:AcidSnow has made commets regarding the images. However my source showed that user is wrong when it comes to Faytinga. She is 100 % Eritrean and represent both cultures (Tigrinya, Kunama). Is this information hard too understand? One of your arguments is that she is Kunama and you start writing about that they are not part of the afro-asiatic family? That has nothing to do with this. Kunama ethinic groups are a recognized group of Eritrea and 100 % eritreans. Plus as I mentioned she is half tigrinya and half Kunama. She represent the majority of Eritreans so that pokes a hole in your argument and she sings in both tigriya and kunama. This is also basic information that Eritreans knows especially if you like Eritrean music. That site is not a blog, it is a trustworthy Eritrean news page. And your suggestion that the coffe image (on the woman) you added is of better is just your personal oppinion, there is no truth behind this. We still have not reached no consensus on this one. Vetrisimino0 (talk) 19:06, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

The page is indeed a blog, and powered by Blogger at that. Middayexpress (talk) 21:08, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

That does not matter since there are more sites confirming she is is half Tigrinya, and that site is a serious site indeed and that article is serious and have sources linked to it. Her mother is still Tigrinya and her father is Kunama. I have mentioned eight times I think, also in my talk section. Its pointless discussing with you. I will ask other users for their opinions regarding this. Her homepage also confrims her mother is from the Eritrean highland. Here are more sources confirming she is half tigrinya. [23], [24], [25].

"While her father was of the Kunama people, her mother grew up in the highlands and was of Tigray descent with grandparents from the Blen tribe. So Faytinga represents three of Eritrea's nine tribes."

"Her first CD album drew upon her father's Kunama heritage while also melding it with her mother's Tigrinya and Bilen heritage."

Here she sings as I mentioned in Tigrinya which many of her songs and albums are written in.

[26] , [27] Besides being half tigrinya, half kunama, and singing in both languages she also fought in the Eritrean war of independence, both she and her father. And you are claiming she is not respresenting Eritrea? What are you basing your facts on? What reasons do I have to lie to you? .Vetrisimino0 (talk) 21:21, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Tingrinya is the most widely spoken language in Eritrea. It serves as a local lingua franca, including for many Kunama individuals like her. That said, all of your links above are blogs, wikis and wiki mirrors, not reliable sources (see here). Her official website also makes it clear that she is Kunama and that her father was a hero among their kinsmen ("Faytinga -- born Dahab Faid Tinga and also known as Dehab Faytinga -- comes from the Kunama people[...] her father was a revered figure among the Kunama people" [28]). It's pretty certain that she knows her own family's ethnic group better than the bloggers you link to. Middayexpress (talk) 14:12, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Some Third-party opinions

I've been asked to provide a third opinion on recent disputes. Here goes:

1. Do you understand why File:Grand Kudu, Eritrea.jpg was deleted, Vetrisimino0? I'd like to hear that you do; you should after a read of [29]. It seems the deletion was appropriate. (And, it's reversible with permission logged via an [[Commons:OTRS| OTRS ticket].)
2. As for the suggestion to add pictures of all nine ethnic groups in Eritrea or remove the picture of two ethnic group pictures in the demographics section: From just reading this page, it looked like this had been settled, and the photos are to be left in and photos of members of other groups can be added over time (and there have been multiple other editors providing opinions already). Good. I would add that images should be shrunk or (better yet) merged, as at [:File:Eriamercol.jpg], so that this can happen. However, I see File:Traditional_Eritrean_dance.jpg has replaced Tigrinya Eritrean wedding picture File:Eritrea_Eritrean_wedding.jpg. Is this a problem? I don't know the ethnicities of the photographed parties. I haven't looked through the article's edit history and don't plan do.
   
   • Flickr has lots more appropriately licensed files. I see File:Rashaida_family.png is on the french article, so there are photos available.
3. Re. Faytinga photo: I think it should stay. Re. Faytinga is half Tigrinya and half Kunama, her father is Kunama and mother is Tigrinya. [22]: The mayote site seems to be a mouthpiece for a particular set of politicial views, so I don't think it's a reliable source for much other than its own views. (My opinion would be swayed if it had a written fact-checking policy.) However, given 3 other sources Vetrisimino0 says confirm Faytinga's mother's ethnicity, it seems reasonable to belive it's true. Can you accept that, Middayexpress? If not, I still think her picture merits inclusion (without noting her mother's ethnicity) and 'clutter' is a poor argument for its removal here.
4. I do wish to point out that a blanket order to a fellow editor like Don't remove content without prior discussion and agreement. is highly inappropriate and invalid here! The WP:BOLD guideline applies to, and allows, such edits. However, so does the part of BOLD that guides one as to how to react when one's bold edits are not left in place. So, in other words, both of you should read / review WP:BOLD. (I see no argument for an exception to BOLD.)

So, hopefully both sides will accept my opinions, and move on to edit on other topics within and without Eritrea. There are points where I have agreed with each of you and points where I have disagreed with each of you (two each), and I believe I've been able to be fair and impartial. Hope that helps.--Elvey^(t•c) 22:20, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

PS As for the coffee... Both photos are technically about equally poor, but good enough for use in an article. File:Coffee_ceremony.jpg is superior, subject-wise. so it should stay in. --Elvey^(t•c) 22:25, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your answers they are appriciated. Regarding the File:Grand Kudu, Eritrea.jpg. Yes, it was deleted since it was not under the correct license. The user owning the photographs gave consent for me too use them on wikipedia in a shape or form. Ive been discussing with the author to get them re-licenced and uploaded to commons using the right licence. This is very time consuming and tricky for the author. However its in progress and the author will hopefully upload them soon. Regarding the picture of Faytinga I also hope we can accept what Elvey has mentioned, there is no reason for not having it. I think we should upload it. And for the coffee picture, we could leave the existing one since Elvey mentioned that the one Middayexpress added was slightly better. Do we have an agreement? Vetrisimino0 (talk) 00:01, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

You're welcome; I hope for a positive response from Middayexpress too.

I think you should take another look at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Commons:OTRS#Declaration_of_consent_for_all_enquiries because there's no need for the author to upload anything or edit anything on commons. All they need to do is send the appropriate email!--Elvey^(t•c) 09:41, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

The agreement, like Vetrisimino0's warning yesterday, was not to unilaterally add or remove any files but rather to only do so with consensus. There is no consensus for the Faytinga file, nor is her traditional Kunama music representative of that of Eritrea's Afro-Asiatic majority. Her Nilotic community makes up less than 2% of the nation's population. Vetrisimino0 insists that her mother is Tigrinya, but has provided no evidence of this other than blogs, wikis and wiki mirrors. On the other hand, her official website indicates that she is Kunama and that her father was a hero among their kinsmen [30]. An artist who is actually representative of Eritrea's Afro-Asiatic majority is Helen Meles. Also, not nitpicking here, but several other files Vetrisimino0 uploaded besides the one above were deleted. Middayexpress (talk) 18:48, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

What agreement? Diff? What warning? Diff? There are points where I have agreed with each of you, but you're not accepting my suggestion to accept them and move on. Sad to see that. You seem unwilling to acknowledge/respect the WP:BOLD guideline. Sad to see that. I see no agreement to add or remove any files to only with consensus. You claim there was one. Diff link? Also, not nitpicking here, but it seems you too have uploaded files that were deleted - File:Somalia-national-university-logo.jpg. What points I made can you accept, Middayexpress ?

Well Elvey, that logo was deleted because I in part asked for its deletion. When I referred to several other deleted files that Vetrisimino0 previously uploaded, I was also talking about copyrighted files that he claimed as his own work and attempted to add here. Again, not nickpiking, but Dougweller can confirm this. As for the warning he received yesterday to work towards consensus, it was on his actual talk page [31]. That said, I accept that instruction to not add or remove files until consensus has been established, the traditional Eritrean dance file, and the Eritrean Jebena woman file. The Faytinga file is a no go for the reasons explained above. A file of Helen Meles is instead representative of the nation's Afro-Asiatic majority [32]. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 23:27, 7 November 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, that warning of Vetrisimino0 was enlightening; I see that there's been acrimony for quite some time... It doesn't exactly excuse your stance on the WP:BOLD guideline, but it does help to explain it.

Again, I (still) see no agreement to add or remove any files only with consensus. You claim there was one. on what page? Agreement by whom? Diff link? I see no support for your claim.

Are there any images of Kunama in the article at the moment? Are you objecting to having even one, or to more than one? --Elvey^(t•c) 00:25, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Although you linked above to the WP:3O page, I see that you didn't in fact come here through the Third Opinion channel but rather because Vetrisimino0 contacted you [33]. An actual Third Opinion was already sought above, and it did not go Vetrisimino0's way. He originally tried to remove several images on invalid grounds, including the wedding file. His latest edits with the Faytinga and other files were likewise not merely attempts to add files. He actually again removed several existing ones (including the wedding file) to make room for those new files and in the process also deleted text [34]. So yes, that is indeed a breach of the instruction to first get talk page agreement on file changes [35]. And that's not even counting the day before yesterday's similar warning. At any rate, my stance with regard to the musicians remains the same for the reasons already explained. Middayexpress (talk) 16:04, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

I hear you but that's all rather non-responsive. For the third time: I (still) see no agreement to add or remove any files only with consensus. You claim there was one. on what page? Agreement by whom? Diff link? I see no support for your claim. Instead, I see some non-responsive comments. You claim, yet again, that s/he breached an agreement, however the lack of response to my two requests for evidence of such an agreement suggests one in fact does not exist. Not cool. You seem to be backing away from the claim when you say "that is indeed a breach of the instruction" - as if you don't know the difference between an instruction and an agreement. We should move forward on the basis that there is no such agreement, given the lack of evidence thereof. Another user's misbehavior doesn't mean you therefore get free rein to violate the rules by fabricating agreements or creating your own rules... [Edit: I see there is an instruction from another user to get agreement, but that's an instruction, given back in June, and that appears to be regarding specific files that had already been BOLDly added and removed, so my point stands.]

Again, please provide a response to help improve communication and reach consensus: Are there any images of Kunama in the article at the moment? Are you objecting to having even one, or to more than one? Please respond. I find it odd that you have not responded yet to those questions. --Elvey^(t•c) 07:27, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

I've already explained that in plain language, with difs. In short, Vetrisimino0 was a) told to "get agreement on the talk page" before making file changes [36], and b) "warned that if he continues to revert (prior to consensus) he may be blocked" [37]. Another user also explained above to him that "some pictures not being in the article is not a reason for existing ones to be removed[...] nor is existing images being in the article a reason to add others", so there's your answer for the Kunama. Vetrisimino0 also mentioned above a hypothetical ethnic table for the nation's various populations, but seems to have abandoned the idea after I asked him to link to a draft of it in his sandbox and to structure it along ethnolinguistic lines (Afro-Asiatic, Nilo-Saharan) so that this doesn't have to be adjusted later. With regard to the Faytinga file, it is a no go for the reasons already explained above by me and by AcidSnow on Vetrisimino0's talk page [38]. A file of Helen Meles is instead representative of the nation's Afro-Asiatic majority [39]. Best regards, Middayexpress (talk) 18:36, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

You can continue to imagine there was an agreement; I can't force you to open your eyes. You provided a diff to a revert from June that provides no evidence whatsoever of an AGREEMENT. You've now provided that diff twice. You've linked to where he was warned. It's sad that you are still unable to see that when you said that there was an agreement, you were saying something that again indicates you don't know the difference between an instruction and an agreement. Anyway, the points been made, and anyone can see it. I'm done pointing it out; you simply refuse to get the point. Heck, there isn't that much of a difference between an instruction and an agreement around here, when the instruction is from admins, who have a history of penalizing resistance to their power grabs.

You write, "so there's your answer for the Kunama"; you seem to think you've answered one of my two Kunama question, but I'm not seeing it. So, for the FIFTH time, the questions are: Are there any images of Kunama in the article at the moment? Are you objecting to having even one, or to more than one? --Elvey^(t•c) 01:39, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

The point indeed has been made, as the difs and quotes above show. Both I and AcidSnow also already made it clear to Vetrisimino0 on his talk page that the Kunama are a Nilotic ethnic group who represent a tiny fraction of Eritrea's population. As such, they are not representative of Eritrea's Afro-Asiatic majority, so they shouldn't be presented as though they are. That includes Faytinga. On the other hand, Helen Meles is ethnically Tigrinya and does thus represent the nation's Afro-Asiatic majority. Middayexpress (talk) 17:32, 11 November 2014 (UTC)

You have just edit-warred to remove my first-time addition of Faytinga to the article. I'm still unable to see your reason for removing the sole(?) image of a Kunama from the article as one that prevents you from answering the simple questions, which I ask for the SIXTH time: the questions are: Are there any images of Kunama in the article at the moment? Are you objecting to having even one, or to more than one? It's edit warring because you haven't answered these reasonable questions, and you didn't address the edit summary I provided when i made the addition, which reads, "For the "music" section, prominence in music, not ethnicity, should be the deciding factor. Faytinga has 3 albums on Amazon." You insist that Faytinga cannot be in the music section because she is not representative of Eritrea's Afro-Asiatic majority. In other words, you are insisting that any image in the music section must be a member of Eritrea's Afro-Asiatic majority. --Elvey^(t•c) 20:08, 12 November 2014 (UTC)